Update regarding the Openspaces announcement

Following our previous post on changes to the Openspace products we have had a great deal of feedback from the community, particularly in the forum thread but also via email and IMs. I would like to offer up some feedback of our own.

The first thing I would like to do, is to thank everyone for taking time to give feedback. We’ve read it all, including the forum posts, and almost all of you have made your points constructively and clearly. We are blessed with highly passionate and intelligent residents and that makes for good dialogue, which we really appreciate.

Secondly, let me be clear when I say that we are listening to what you are saying to us on this issue. If you’re wondering whether to post that forum entry, please do. They all get read, even if we’re not able to reply to them all.

Thirdly, I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.

Over the next few days we will be continuing to review the feedback and keep the dialogue flowing with as many of you as we can. If you have something to say, the forum is the best place to say it. It is clear that some Openspaces are being used as they were intended originally, so we recognise that there are different levels of usage that we need to account for.

We will blog again soon, once we have had time to review. Be assured that we are aware of the strong feelings you have about this decision. In the meantime, please keep the conversation flowing, constructive and on topic. More from us soon.

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146 Responses to Update regarding the Openspaces announcement

  1. Qie says:

    It might be time to outline and refine a plan that LL and most OpenSpace owners can live with. I’ll try to outline something, stealing liberally from the many good suggestions in the thread, where I initially posted this strawman.

    Two classes of OpenSpace sims. There is demand for the “original” OpenSpace “void sim” application: lower primcount, very few scripts, very few avatars–just very light load, and only in areas surrounding other, full-primmed sims. There is also a clear demand for heavier use OpenSpaces–still much lower density than full-primmed sims, but posing much more demand on the backend services than does the “void sim” application. These need to be separated into two distinct products with different fee schedules; let’s call them “Void” and “Low-Density” sims.

    The details of what’s a “Void” and what’s “Low-Density” should be worked out in consultation with LL Development and Operations, but I’d suggest that “Voids” could continue to run 4 per CPU and Low-Densities perhaps 3, and that new Voids would have to be attached to full-primmed sims and only available in groups of 4. For both sim classes, Development must devise ways to throttle inter-sim demands *and* demands on back-end central services and networks to keep the products viable.

    Conversion without penalty. Like it or not, the “unbelievably good deal” of $75/mo OpenSpaces was a product marketing mistake. Such things happen all the time with new products, and LL really should step up and admit that this was their f*-up, not the fault of an evil empire of abusing buyers. Or don’t admit it, but act responsibly anyway: That $250 set-up fee should be credited toward whatever product to which the buyer chooses to transition now. Four OpenSpaces to one full-primmed sim: Free; any fewer: $250 credit per OpenSpace. Also free: choosing “Void” or “Low-Density” for existing OpenSpaces.

    Temporary Partial Grandfathering. Everybody has to expect pricing fluctuations for new products, but nobody can plan for a 67% increase–that really is punitive, and a business breaker. So, instead: on 1/1/09, Low-Density sims ordered before 11/1/08 will be charged $100/month until 6/1/2009, when the rate will go to $125/month; new Low-Density sims ordered after 11/1/08 will go to $125 on 1/1/09 without grandfathering. Maybe fees for Voids could even nominally decrease on 1/1/09.

    “Hardwired” Estate sim clustering. The idea that an Estate owner can manage their OpenSpaces as a group, so they share CPUs only with each other, has some real merit. It’s understood that inter-sim resource demands are only part of the problem: what load they pose on backend central services still has to be addressed, but LL Development and Operations need to come up with a way for Estate owners to choose CPU sharing for their OpenSpaces. Indeed, it has emerged that full-primmed sims can affect others that share their server box, even though running on a separate core, so a generalization of this could be of value to Estates who have no OpenSpaces at all.

  2. Jack Linden says:

    @Qie: Amidst many excellent responses we’ve had, yours might be the most constructive I’ve seen yet! As I think I have alluded to in the post, we do recognise that there are at least two clear usage models at play here, and I agree that we need to look at how we recognise that in whatever we do. We’re discussing that along with other feedback at the moment. Good post, good ideas.

  3. Phil Priestman says:

    The price hike should be suspended indefinetly until Lindenlabs can work out a plan that works for all parties.

    Its not the consumer’s fault if a company isn’t competent enough to figure out the correct fees or useage of their products until after its been released and then expect the customers to accept being gouged without complaints.

  4. Breeze Herrey says:

    Wish they would’ve made this decisions way before they sold 1000s of Open Spaces. Wonder if they plan to reimburse the monies for setups fees. Jack you knew that residents was going to use it more than just a forest or boating. even after the first week after you raised the prims from 1875 to 3750.

  5. Soy N says:

    Hello Jack and LL guys,

    can you please let us know what virtualization technique you are using (if any) in your Linux boxes for the openspaces?

    This information is not available anywhere and it would be nice to know this kind of info.

    Thanks,

    Soy

  6. Jack,
    I can’t help but take note that your message has shifted the emphasis from performance and technical issues to value. You are basically saying that people are getting too much value, with the current use of openspaces, with respect to the current price.

    This makes much more sense than those technical issues that would probably have been easily fixed server side. Yet, with all the due respect to the infrastructure that LL provides, a significant portion of this value this value has been created by the residents, by their hard work, their imagination and their creativity. Regions have grown exploiting OS that could be considered the SL crown jewels. Yet you are now punishing those who accomplished this, taking that value away from them and cashing it.

    It is business but it sounds so unfair

  7. PonygirlSarah Clapper says:

    What about those of us who have been forced to already abandon our OS sims because of some “mistake”?

    We’re now out $250 per. To a lot of us, that money represents RL rent, food, gas, ect. Are w going to be credited back that setup fee, if we abandoned because the support rentors all got scared off?

    I know in my personal case, at the moment, I’m out now $750, which to me represents 1 full month of rent. If I have to give up the other 4 OS sims currently being occupied, thats a loss to me of $1750 total.

    I want the OS pricing to remain the same, but a lot of us have already been forced to dump some of the OS sims we had, because the people on them just couldn’t afford the adjusted rrental rates.

  8. #2 – absolutely agree with you – pretty much along the same lines I proposed this morning on the forum thread.

    There should be ways of offering a flexible product which suits different users without resorting to punishment and cries of abuse. There is obviously a need for a variety of sims in terms of prims, scripts and avatars – this would be a good time to start offering a menu system where you can specify what you want to buy and be charged accordingly.

  9. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    Hi Jack, i think you need to state exactly the reason of WHY you proposed this price increase, because i think that most of us believed (initially) that it was because of a misuse/abuse of the OpenSpace simulator, while it is not.
    It’s not a “performance” problem because we both know that these SIM are running on virtual machines, and you can actually force (CPU and bandwidth) to each of them, so if you assign to each VM 1/16 (6.6%) of the total server resources, any OpenSpace *WON’T* affect the other ones on the same server. It is pretty easy to do and it’s the basics of how a shared server works (plenty of virtual server out there), and im sure you guys there have an adeguate skill to know how it works.
    I know why you can’t do that, because you are trying to optimize the costs/usage per machine, overbooking them (assuming that each instance of each VM will never use it’s max power), but other methods exists to resolve this issue: it’s a resource allocator with load balancing (each VM would be throttled to its allocated resource if the others on the same machine asks for their “power”).

    So it’s better that you say the “truth” with more efficient words than your previous posts. Example: we found that these Open Space simulators worth MORE than the price that they are currently sold (because they are more attractive than we were expeting), so we decided to increase their price.
    If you had used these words from the start i think that the ppl would have understood and react in a different way, i’m not saying that we would have accepted it, but at least you wouldn’t have passed as a “liar” (because of a misunderstood).

    Anyway this won’t solve the problem, the problem here (imho) is just because u didn’t decided to grandfather the current owner, forcing em to accept a new rule or loose their investiment (and setup price) otherwise the problem would never existed.

    Cheers.

  10. Jack, LL has to find a solution. Quick. Trust was destroyed, people are leaving, they don’t even care anymore what comes out of this matter in the end. I gave back the first OS region today, the land owner wasn’t interested in even waiting till the actual january price hike anymore. People don’t TRUST your company anymore, and each day without a very clear response will make this problem bigger.

    There are some really good ideas by others about how to manage all this in the future. There could lay the basics for new products, products that fit the needs of many different people much better than what you offer today. LL has to work on developing this. BUT! This is a future project, what is needed RIGHT NOW is the immediate stop of the price increase plan. BEFORE more and more people leave SL for good, not even caring anymore about the good and constructive ideas for future products.

  11. The latest blog non-response on this issue once again shows that Linden is flopping around as they chant the mantra of light use when they didn’t follow the old policy themselves with regards to their own themed openspace sims. In fact, the stinging charges of hypocrisy and double standards were apparently hitting the mark, and yesterday they changed their openspace sims (e.g. Mos Ainsley) to full sims – bet they didn’t pay the transfer fee, eh?

    It’s clear that the old policy as referenced in the KB was contravened the minute that Linden doubled the prim allotment from 1875 to 3750 and heavily marketed them to the point that Jack Linden was crowing about increased growth of the grid back in July and not a word about their alleged inappropriate use or how the grid resources were being overtaxed, etc.

    Please don’t insult our intelligence and do the right thing. Either provide a complete refund for those who purchased the OS’s under false pretenses or grandfather the rate increase.

  12. Wingedsentry says:

    1. “empty area’s of ocean or forest”

    That is and cannot be the same. An ocean, ok, only water, an occasional buoy or fish. so hardly a prim.

    But a forest must consist of many trees. And one tree is at least a few prims, so many many prims.

    2. “revised pricing is about recognizing”

    I do not think so. Not until I have seen some figures by LL about the factual use. The sailing sims e.g have always been used in the way they are used now and there is in no sense a change of use. So for others. And if revised pricing is about more cost, then please show us that also. In the mean time I think revised pricing is about getting more money.

    WS.

  13. Jack, I think you need to take a look at what other employees of your company are using the OS for…..

    http://mistyisforeverlost.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/dear-governor-linden-tm-copy-right-all-that-good-jazz/

  14. Daten Thielt says:

    Ok i dont see why people dont take it this way, even if they DONT increase the price that wont solve the problem so WHAT IF they crunch down on it so you cant rent it out? then your still screwed because you will not be able to sell your 100+ openspace sims as to many other people will have to many, Linden Labs dont back down whatever you do. you may have 20,000 angry people but know there is 1000+ that are with you all the way

  15. Jonah Himmel says:

    Logged in this morning and found out that because of the above decision on opensims, the estate and the family I have been with for almost the past year is being disbanded. How sad- We built a beautiful community, and many of the residents were considering major investments such as a large open sim area for sailing.

    Now we have a few weeks to pack up. I am not sure I want to make that kind of investment again given what I am losing this time around. No ranting and raving- just sad at the poor business decisions and disregard for the majority of us who were not abusing the open sims.

    At a minimum significant business investment decisions are on hold until I consider aternatives.

  16. Sila Slade says:

    Looked from the business side you put your customers off. And believe me I am in the IT business, telling the story about the misuse is just an excuse.
    From the technical side go back to your desk and learn about virtualization. If you spread connected simulators over your hosting infrastructure then you have extra traffic. Is that a customers problem? If simulators who are only used by scripts and physics but not a single avatar in sight use much CPU then go back and look at your concepts. It is useless to talk about a prim limit on the land use, you all know it this is an artificial limit. Every Avatar can carry much more prims on the attachment points than a OS have to offer. So a simulator working on its own with only a few physical objects and scripts must not consume much resources. Next learn how to limit cpu, memory and bandwidth to a simulator and do it that every sim on the server get the resources needed at least a minimum. Learn from companies who set up virtual servers for webhosting or DB hosting, it works!
    The whole thing becomes suddenly funny when you tell us with 125$ and a class 5 server everything is ok. Try to describe this technically if you can. I guess you need some extra money for long overdue investments in infrastructure and the OS users look like the mule to carry it.
    just my 2ct

  17. SeanD Serpente says:

    HI. I don’t know if i understand everything fully. Buti have followed this issue intense. I am a renter of two OS with a group of friends. We are trying to make a builder/creator buissness for other users or newcoming users who maybe don’t know how to create , terraform or such..and we do have our very good quallities in our creative minds with building… so on our sims we do pay for the tiers, but they go to the owner of the sims and he is the payer to LL for the sims. we set op a house temprezzer and a mall. other than that we have garden spots and nice locations for relaxsation and romance on the sims…
    Now… these are the only places where we are able to do so…we don’t earn alot of money irl, and this is all we can afford, and at the same time we do really would like to make a buissness and earn the money inside second life…well to at least pay for the tiers.
    So now to what i don’t understand…i know these sims OS or normal, may take up alot of resouses, BUT…if OS are mainly to be used as surroundings such as water or some trees and stuff…why on earth do they have to be so sky high expensive..that makes no sense to me. and why put a 3750 prim count on them in the first place if they are not intented to be used…though still not abbused. SL is my whole life, and i love to be here…it makes me so sad to see it go down like this. And the last thing we need in a free world and away from the real world as we know it, is a revolusion in here… so i beg for LL to come up with a solution that will benefit the useres aswell as LL. Thanx

  18. I think the problem exists because you, Linden Lab, allowed the users of OpenSpace SIMs to do what they did, and did nothing about it.

    It’s hard to get the horse back in the barn once the door is open, and that’s the truth if you haven’t ever worked on a farm. It’s also true here. You allowed these Customers to do what they wanted with their purchases, didn’t tell them early that that wasn’t how they are to be used.

    Instead, you post that the way people are using them is wrong and btw here’s a price increase. This had the unfortunate effect to make it look like you were announcing the price increase as a Punishment to people that were using OpenSpace SIMs in manners contrary to what you believed they should be used.

    Another statement that got you in troulbe was to say that you didn’t realize people would/have been using OpenSpace SIMs in this manner. We all know this just isn’t true; because if it is, we then have to wonder just who’s minding the store there? Don’t you check on things there or do you guys just do what you want and don’t care what the Community is doing? Do you see the problem with saying you just didn’t know? You put yourself in this position, we aren’t making this up to be mean, hateful, or confrontational. The Community is up in arms, not so much because of the Price Increase, but because you changed the rules in the middle of the road. You had to know what people were doing with OpenSpace SIMs, you were out there day to day, or you were supposed to be, you are supposed to keep in touch with the Community. You had to realize what people were doing, and instead of EARLY on in the process ask them NOT TO USE OpenSpace SIMs in this manner, you remained silent, giving many the idea that it was ok what they were doing, then others saw it as a chance to get their own SIM and do what they wanted, because that’s what others are doing and the overseer’s at Linden Lab apparently don’t care, they haven’t said word one about it.

    Let me say this, it’s completely UNFAIR for Linden Lab to allow their residents to buy OpenSpace SIMs and then come back months later and say, “You can’t do that”, then point to some abstract Knowledge Base article as your proof that you have spoken loud and clear. When selling these OpenSpace SIMs, were there contracts put in place stating exactly what they could be used for and not used for? If not, then isn’t that Linden Labs’ problem, and having this announcement, isn’t that passing the problem onto your Community, who did nothing but play by the rules that YOU allowed them to?

    What Liability does Linden Lab have in this mess and do you, Linden Lab, think you are accepting the full amount of Liability that you should?

    It’s all about Perception my friends. It’s not managing the crancks like me, or doing what gets most votes, it’s about managing Perceptions, and I’m sorry, but in this instance you have failed. Now is the time to step up and admit your mistake and find a way to show the Community you are taking responsibility for the Liability you have in all this mess.

    Here’s hoping you can step up and show everyone that Linden Lab isn’t a complete failure.

  19. Marcus says:

    I think there is more than 2 usage models for OpenSpace sims. Look at just these: Original intent, home, main store base, RP sim. Roll those four around in your head and you can imagine the many differences in usage and performance. If LL goes forward with making variable pricing for different kinds of usage, that would be more fair than amping up the prices for everyone.

    Also, introduce a more varied paymend model INSTEAD of just amping the prices, not AFTER. A lot of people bought their Openspace sims MAY be able to cope with slighty increased prices (especially “home” owners) but I highly doubt they would pay initial setup fees again after their current openspace homes were taken away from them like it will happen with the current price increase in January.

  20. Ceera Murakami says:

    Jack, I design and build sims professionally in SL. It’s painfully clear now that it was a grevious mistake on LL’s part for them to increase the prim count for OpenSpaces sims, and for them to allow those sims to be located so they were not contiguous edge-to-edge with other sims owned by the primary full sim owner, and for lowering the price on them. Those changes encouraged this mess. You can’t hand someone a jumbo serving of fries and a jumbo coke for a lower price than a small one, and then complain that they ate and drank the whole thing.

    For the designated low-density uses that LL intended OpenSpaces sims for, there is absolutely no justification for more than 1850 prims, and no more than 10 users per sim. When a void sim had those limits, they were used as you intended, and as such they would still be very useful. In fact, they really don’t need any more than 925 prims, if that is all you are going to use them for.

    While there is a definite demand for a lower-cost full-region solution, you can’t price that solution so high that it’s insane to consider it. Private Island sims cost L$5.3 per prim per month to maintain, and Mainland is even lower. The new pricing places the OpenSpacs sims at a whopping L$8.8 per prim per month, and offers worse performance than a parcel on a private island that offers the same prim count? The ONLY reasons I can concieve that anyone in their right mind would pay that premium price for a OpenSpace sim would be if they desperately needed the land area (in which case a true void sim, at 925 or 1850 prims would likely be a better choice), or if they intended to place the sim on the grid so it was not touching any other sims, so it would have true privacy when set to no public access.

    Please, seriously consider a 925 prim, “void-lite” offering, at the same price or lower than what you sell an OpenSpace sim for today.

    Then see what you can do to reach a compromize on charging so much more for a high-use OpenSpace, that actualy improves the product. Such as stating that for that higher $125 per month fee, you will place them only 2 or 3 high-use OS sims per core, and not 4.

    Also, please consider a grace period where people can consolidate 4 OS sims back to a normal one at no cost, or can get credit for less than 4, as Qie suggested. That will help a LOT in terms of softening the blow for land owners whop are orced to reorganize because of your sudden change of course.

  21. Alvi Halderman says:

    I would only agree with the new pricing if users that don’t own a full sim would be able to buy an openspace!.
    I just don’t get it. you buy a 3750Prim Sims so you are able to rezz 3750Prims because if a sim is for boating or a ocean it could have even 500prims. I think a lot of estate owners will have to leave they’re business. If someone would increase the price a 66% i would leave the place immediately!. If you have 100 Void sims and you charge 100Usd per sim and now you will charge 150 you would loose min. 40% of your customers. Thx god i’m not such an entrepreneur. Now i would expect you will increase 15.000Prims sims to 500USD because sl has 70.000Avatars online. I don’t think its fair to give 3750prims and that they tell you “you are not allowed to use so much prims even if you have them”.
    I think LL will regret what they have just done but they wont because even if they loose 30% of the sims they increased 66% the prices. So at the end “we” the guys that pay a lot for lag, bugs and a not reliable platform will have to pay more. But we can just say “Thats it”. Because we won’t live sl.

  22. Canis Canning says:

    I understand well, that the new philosophy should be now, that everybody in SL should pay the costs that he is responsible for. That would be ok for me.

    But if it is so, then I am not willing to pay 50US$ a month more to finance the costs that lots of parasites in SL are responsible for. There are thousands of citizens that never change a dime to Lindens and that never contribute some of their time for the community.

    If LindenLab is nearly bancrupt, then my proposed solution is: LindenLab should raise a mandatory monthly fee for everybody and then I am willing to pay more for the extra things I want.

    Now I will give up my opensim, I will stop to change 100US$ a month into Linden$ (half of it payed half of the opensim tier) and I will stop to script and build for the community. I will try to get enough remedy from the things I build in the past to make a living in SL. I will dance and explore what others provide that are still dumb enough to let milk themselves from LindenLab. If that does not work I will quit.

    Good Night Second Life

  23. Doug says:

    Thank you Lindenlab, iam not able to realise my projects anymore with that change. I simply dont got the money for fullprim, i need space. the prims dont matter. thank you iam going to twinity now, have a nice day

  24. Arifi Saeed says:

    While I do understand the unhappiness of folks who bought openspace sims without doing their homework (or simply assuming that what LL had said about them could be ignored), I think the recent changes are well-advised and will be beneficial in the long run. The new policy will be very helpful in restoring the ‘value’ of mainland real estate – which was serverely eroded by the mis-use of openspace sims.

    And anyone who thinks that folks will not be able to afford it under the new pricing needs to take a good look on what those little 1024m2 double prim lots on Nautilus Island are selling for at auction!

    All the best,

    Arifi

  25. shockwave yareach says:

    I still say hardcoding a 12 avatar cap on openspaces and grandfathering the price until July, when it goes to 100$, will fix everything. And it is the simplest and quickest to implement as well.

    It does not recover trust, however. That is gone. I had the option of buying our 4 voids and making it a full island, but I don’t know when you’ll pull the magic price increase on me again so I declined.

  26. Smokey Newman says:

    LL had to do something most openspaces are being abused (not being used as to guidelines). Estate owners (private Region) can not rent out land any more because everyone wants there own “Island”, and they pay more for the service.

    As for the people suing SL for change in conditions how can you do this it happens all the time here you have even been given two months notice. As with all the changes in Sl we hve to go with it, we have all been hit by some sort of LL policy etc but we carried on if you dont like it go somewhere else or am I hitting the nail on the head people dont like it because they cannot make as much profit from the overuse of resources. This is not the end of Sl this is just a blip that happened before may I say the new director was in place.

    I alos understand for those who have created great spaces with there opensims that yes its a blow but unfortunately Linden can not make one rule for one and another for another I am sure we would have a lot to say about that.

  27. nina says:

    bri and i are looking to get rid of our estate. i wont be ‘buying’ any more property in SL. i have been burnt too many times and i just cannot trust LL to do right by me. they view me as a cash cow, and will stop at nothing to devalue my holdings and bleed me dry.
    ill let some other sucker spend their money here.

  28. Siddean Munro says:

    I would like to offer the following for consideration. Return to the true void sims – 1850 prims or whatever it was before the openspace, and offer alternative sim options for those of us who cannot afford a full sim, but who want to have the privacy and outlook that a private island offers, without neighbours or your landlord’s messy, spammy, laggy club in the middle of your sim.

    I would be perfectly happy to run my business on a HALF prim, full square meterage sim. That way those that want parks and openspaces can have them in the very low prim variety, those of us that need a few more prims without the hassle of renting or neighbours, but can’t yet afford a full region can do so, and those that want a full sim can also do so. The openspace sims seemed like a strange compromise to me. More than enough prims to setup a little shopping district, but we’re supposed to sink them and use them to sail on??

    All this will mean is that little businesses like me are forced back into the renting roundabout, and as much as I don’t want to leave my openspace, and I can afford to pay the extra tier, I won’t pay more for less.

  29. Alida Wilder says:

    As a business owner, this type of price increase to customers is incomprehensible to me. I know I’d be out of business if I tried to do that, especially in the current economy. I appreciate that LL is actually reading the posts (and most importantly, are they reading the one on Jira, MiSC-1776, where over 3,000 residents have voted that this is the main issue affecting their SL)?

    I was perfectly happy with my 1,875 prim, 65,000 sq m island which I purchased in June of 2007. When the prims were doubled, I found myself able to create an even more beautiful and interesting place to not only make my home, but also share with fellow residents. I have been happy to see my island in people’s picks. And I love what I have made there.

    There are rarely more than 2 avatars on the island at any given point in time; I have not been notified by the estate manager that we are experiencing performance issues. If the 67% increase goes thru as indicated, my island (and maybe even me) will be gone from SL.

    It feels like we are all being punished for buying a product and making good use of it. Creating different levels of open space and charging accordingly seems to be the equitable thing to do.

  30. Dianne Davies says:

    Jack,

    You are invited to come over to the two open sims that me and my partner currently own.

    See the wildlife, the mountains, the streams, the waterfalls, the lakes, the trails to climb, the sounds of nature around you and then try and tell me we are “abusing” anything.

    You are very near sighted – there in your little office – come on get out..live a little – see SL as it really is and it doesn’t only exist on a spreadsheet for some of us Jack – it exists in dreams..

    See you soon 🙂

  31. nina says:

    another thing, briana has always been a huge fanboi of LL. i cannot express how much so. the last time LL shafted me she saw it all through rose-coloured glass, memories of logging onto a grid with 15 other people, dancing with lindens in her system shoes and system hair. LL could do not wrong… until this week. even bri is disgusted by you LL. you dont dont know what a monumental task you achieved there.

  32. Breeze Herrey says:

    Its obvious that jack is talking about open space use for commercial vs. residential. And because residents are banking money for commercial use on open space is why he is saying open space sims have become more in value.

    So the recommendation here is lite use sims at 1875 for those who want to just live on land, and 3750 prims for the ones who are looking to build a business. Anything then just raising the price overall at 67% would make a lot of people happy. Instead of forcing a large population to leave.

  33. Mystiphi Giha says:

    From what I understand OS Sims have been bundled on their own QuadCores and NOT with the Sims that they are supposedly attached to.

    LL needs to reshuffle these because this system obviously isnt working when a estate owner has many sims and OS’s

    4 Privates = 1 Quadcore
    16 OS = 1 Quadcore

    Any combination of that premise, would support 1 estate owners OR as a suggestion, 2 Estate Sisters (ex. 2 sim owners / 2 sims 8 OS), could then share the responsibility for that Quad thus not overtaxing each other.

    Why are things that are owned by the same people on the same Quads ? Partly because they allowed single OSs to be purchased before change, and that they were not sold in packages.

    Packages of 4 OS should come with the same cost as 1 sim and housed in the same quad. Unless someone can produce a REAL explanation why they cannot be ….

    Just some suggestion instead of just b*otching…

  34. Alan Radius says:

    hi All
    i use an openSim for my place Venice passion , ~2.5 ms of scripts, ~2800 prims average ~60 ppls by days and max 10 ppls at the same time. I don t think that is a high load
    I made this sim by passion not for the business and i can t spend mor money for that. This is the reason why i don t have a full sim, the price is absolutly too high for persons (not compagny). I decided to participate and help the project openSimulator ( i m programmer and linux man) and to migrate to this democrated (openSimulator) world
    i compare you to Microsoft and opensimulator to Linux, one side one compagny is the kind and decide all whenever if customer are not happy and the othersize a democratic world .

    i think your sims are too expensive and opensims it was a nice compromise

    excuse me for my english i m french
    Regards

  35. Deltango Vale says:

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but a stitch in time saves nine 🙂

  36. Stoo Straaf says:

    Dear Jack,

    Many good points raised on both sides. I have already made my comments in the forum but here is some financial detail to consider.

    Over the past year-and-a-bit I’ve invested over US$6000 in purchasing full sims and openspaces for my estate. Until this announcement, my residents were paying a good rate (good for them and good for me). They got lower tier than many other places, and I was making just about enough positive cash-flow to pay back my US$6000 over about two years.

    Two MORE years in SL, an environment that I “love” enough to commit my dollars to.

    But this price increase changes all that. I can never, EVER get my initial investment back. I have thrown US$6000 down the drain (or, rather, into Linden Lab’s pocket).

    Now I am in a damage limitation situation. My residents are my friends; I live with them in our community. My priority is to ensure I break even on cash-flow, and then allow the community to slowly shrink due to natural wastage (people moving away). I’ve had to raise my prices (not as much as you did, because I’m soaking up the difference by sacrificing my investment return) and so far about a third of my residents have decided to leave.

    So I’ll scale back my estate holdings by a third, maybe more. So Linden Lab loses out because my outgoings will shrink. I lose out because I’ve lost my investment. My residents and friends lose out because they either lose their land outright or they have to face moving around to fit what I have left.

    I can’t see any winners.

  37. Bud Parnall says:

    Abuse refers to the use or treatment of something (a person, item, substance, concept, or vocabulary) that is harmful.

    Ok Jack:
    You knowingly sold a product to the People of SL with the limits of 3700 prims, no script limits and broad guidelines of use.

    The creative developers of second life have done nothing knowingly harmful.

    They have simply used the product to the limits of its technical bounds.

    I have enjoyed my os sim to the limit. I have used sl technology to expand my island environment. I have used them for my own creation and enjoyment. There is rarely anyone there but me.

    Others have made beautiful, quiet places. Minimal scripts. Limited utilization of prims.

    It is me you want……………… not them.

    You would not sell me an Open sim at a reasonable rate. I purchased one through a reseller.

    Now I stand to loose the creation if my reseller folds.

    My enjoyment, my terraforming, my textures, my cyber place of peace.

    I am sad at the potential loss. My resellar will not reply to my communications. I cannot download my terrain files. I stand to loose months of work.

    Give me options Jack. I will pay my fair shair. Be fair.

    Leave THEM alone.

  38. Lala Lumiere says:

    Jack,

    -Light use was never defined when the sims were bought.
    -Why increase the prim limit from 1875 to 3700 if one were not supposed to build in them?
    -Why allow them to be placed standalone, if they were meant as extensions for view?
    -Why cash in on conversions and sales when Linden Lab knew what they were used for?
    -Why did Linden Lab themselves have Lowprim sims that were “heavily” built?
    -Can we convert them back for free now, since were were forcerd/ tricked to convert them to Opsenspace in first place?
    – My tier goes up from 50 USD to 125 USD per sim. Do you think a raise like this is justified?
    -How will the price raise fix the performance issues that has been used an as excuse? ( Unless you improve some hardware/software, I fail to see hoow charging the much more for same product makes it better)?
    -Do you think changing a product after sale is according to European consumer protection laws?

  39. Liana says:

    Why the heck would they even give people the option of putting prims on it if it was for ocean views?

    I’m not going to pay 75$ a month to look at some water.

  40. shockwave yareach says:

    BTW: It is LL’s own fault that they are STILL SELLING THE VOIDSIMS. If it’s so awful and we are being sooooo naughty with them, then why are you still offering them at the same low price?

    Set a reasonable limit (12) on the voids and give us the prices we agreed to when we bought them. Otherwise your words and contracts are worthless and no ethical person or business will have much to do with you.

  41. shockwave yareach says:

    Limit the avatars to 12. Sorry, dropped a word or two there. See how mad you’ve gotten me? Pro writer, and you have words disappearing from my head before they can reach the keyboard. Not even my wife can get me this hot.

  42. Dianne Davies says:

    LMAO!!!…this has nothing to do with performance or “abuse” which is a term I personally find offensive btw Jack..

    This is about MONEY..plain, simple its MONEY.

    They needed some, they sold us the open sims – WITH MORE PRIMS – and then when they had all the money they needed felt free to turn around and start slinging this crap at everyone!!

    Its plain..its simple..ITS BS!!…

    You want to take strain off the system..to stop ABUSE?? kick out those that have like 10 freakin avatars sitting around camping for lindens – just sucking the bandwidth – then..hey you might actually get somewhere..but wait..no money in that..nevermind

  43. Pim Davies says:

    Dear Jack Linden,

    Dear All,

    I will not comment technicalities, that I leave to those of you learned people.

    As a user that only wants, like many of the private residents, I presume, to have an enjoyable agreeable and private presence in SL, eventually residing in an island sufficiently isolated and with an nice landscaping I would like to remind that those all over the World (the real life World) who are present in SL (which by the way is a world wide product, not just American) because they can spend some extra money doing so, cannot stop from finding highly disproportionate a raising of more than 60% of prices.

    In a framework of economical crisis what people will do, eventually, is to leave SL or modify largely it’s presence, that is to say the way they are in SL.

    I believe that with some imagination, taking into consideration uses that are different than the ones that where originally thought, new products/solutions can eventually be created and offered.

    Thank you for having read this.

  44. rptb1 says:

    Whatever the legal, technical, and money issues are, you have to admit this is a customer-relations disaster by Linden Labs. I hope they learn something about maintaining the trust and goodwill of their residents, without which they would be dead.

  45. Melody Regent says:

    You read them all? Wonderful then it will make it worth my time to post so here goes…..

    You want to know what to do? Get responsible responses?

    Start selling in fours once more again. No longer sell them one at a time. This will make the commitment to have them greater. Anyone that currently has an odd number, offer to even them out for free.

    Charge your higher tier but provide support and value for it. Leave the REAL usage alone. Currently you have 16 Os per server at a cost of $1200 (less for GF sims). If you max them out at 12 per server you will lower the load and still make more money at $1500 per server.

    Leave people on their own quad. Each pack of four sims will share together. So if one over loads, it over loads ME and not someone else. This puts the policing in Estate Owners (EO) hands and frees you.

    Limit agents to 25 per sim. You mentioned that you cannot program this, I do not believe this but I will go with if cause you say so. Once more, you put this back in the EO to police. If an AR is filed for misuse, the EO will be told and asked to take care of it. If they don’t, they suffer the results. From a one hour ban to loosing the sims (all four) for misuse. This means you need to fix it so that we are notified of all ARs filed on our sims.

    If this is not at all about the money, like you claim offer us a bailout. If we do not take the free sims to make a four pack, buy back the ones we return. Tier that…100% for ones bought in the last 30 days, 50% 31-45, 25% 46 – 60, 10% for 60-120.

    Offer free conversions, name changes and moves for 90 days. This will help those moving from OS to Fulls. It will also allow reorganization of the map and renaming of some sims that we wish to leave in place. Personally, I will have to over lap names during this and cant afford to change a name for three days. EOs will need to move and make manageable our map again.

    IF, and I do not think you should with the changes above, make guidelines, make the clear and easy to understand. Do not leave a vagueness. I know you can’t monitor FPS or scripts or over all lag. This varies from person to person and minute to minute, so I think laying out rules like that will not work. But limits on avs and making EOs police or pay will. Those that don’t loose. Those of us that keep a tight hand on what our people are doing will.

    Follow up in 3 or 6 months with us. See, on the forums, how things are going. Also, meet with people in world. Not just office hours, but invite people to a private dialog with what is working and what isn’t. Let us, one the front lines here, have a larger voice. I know I am by no means one of the big wigs but with nearly $60,000usd paid to you a year, I should also be able to have a voice.

  46. Tetsuya Owatatsumi says:

    Jack, I dont see how the price increase will solve the problem. If everybody who owned an openspace sim, acutally paid the increase, the performance will be the same as it is now. It seems like the only reason for the price increase is to drive people out of the market for open spaces and reduce load by reducing the number of open spaces. What do you have to say to this. How will performance improve if everybody actually pays the price increase? You are still going to have the same number of openspaces on the same server type…And the problem persists. The root of the problem is that the agent limit causes load, because now on a server full of 16 OS sims you can have 1600 agents, whereas on a server full of 4 sims, you can have 400. if the agent limit on openspaces is set to 1/4 of the full sim limit, and the temproary prim allowance is also set to 1/4 then the numbers will line up nicely. You wont have a lot of angry customers anymore, and the world can prosper. I know you do not have these features in your code base right now, but speaking as a programmer myself, they are not that hard to implement. Surely paying some programmers to set these limits is a much better investment, then causing thousands of OS sim owners to abandon the sims due to an unprecedented 67% price increase?

  47. Joshe Darkstone says:

    I will refrain from being discourteous about this any longer but I will say this. The “unexpected” usage is a direct result of your intentional decision to sell these islands in fulll knowledge of their use. It would be nice if you would be gracious enough to take responsibility for it.

    Constructive ideas:

    1. dispell the poanic and let everyone know you are rethinking and that the jolting price increase is off the table.

    2. Give the techs time to impliment the fiber optiics feed to replace the VPN and see how much that alleviates the load, I think it will be more then you expect.

    3. Use that time to develop a few technical enhancements to the OS sims including…

    a. locate regions that share borders on the same equipment so they can share resources as well.

    b. enable regions that ar eon the same server and share borders to share information directly instead of straining the network, where possible.

    c. provide a shared cache of server information requested by one of these regions so that it can be retrieved by the others if/when it becomes necessary

    d. provide a way for estate owners to manage the load on the server and the network pipe, limit them to 20% so that you have room for your overhead. this would be for CPU utilization and network utilization alike.

    4. during that time prepare a new landscaping sim, downgraded to support only the use you intend (water/trees) at say 1000 prims or so and 10% cpu utilization. I would dumb this sim down a bit wrt how much information it will exchange with its neighbors as well. Release that product at a lower cost.

    5. INCREMENTALLY increase the pricing of the current OS product to reflect increased load AFTER you see what theat load really is, when the fiber is in place and you have added some intelligent enhancements. Jolting price increases will make the product untenable for everyone except those that profit from their use.

    Gradual pricing changes can be absorbed by the community because we lose a few tenants at a time. over time. Psuhing out a price hike like this all at once will simply force most landholders to dump them.

    Jack if you try to put the genie back in the bottle on this one you are gunna hurt people, alot of them.

  48. Villain Baroque says:

    Hi Jack, Hello Linden Labs,

    all this discussion about prices and usage is beside the point by now. What you did with your post is, you destroyed the basic trust between your “citizens” and it’s “government”, between customers and company.

    Whatever you decide now and even if you take back the increase in fees, who is going to believe you enough to build business plans on that or build an elaborate private home, spend hours of work on things that can be destroyed by you in a minute.

    You have a long way to gain back our trust. As the first two steps, I want to propose to you:
    1. Forget about the raise in tier, even if it’s justified by any means nobody else can see.
    2. Think about installing a board of citizens that is heard BEFORE you announce any other drastic steps in future.

    A very annoyed citizen and customer

  49. PeterArt Krach says:

    just a small note a new scripting language has been made claiming to be 10 times or so faster; so why just not disalow old script there, and there wont be a CPU problem.

    Its a bit strange that there is suddenly a resources problem, i mean i never seen more lag then i usualy see. And whenever its to much i just simply Teleport away so problem solved.

    What we also regulary see that a parcel is full, so thats another way to avoid people from TP to that place and so to limit CPU usage.

    And just maybe, an idea give people the option to not use voice/video on their parcel, so that it can become cheaper, and also uses less resources.

    But basicly i think you have a Database or Design issue…
    Dont know what your running MySQL SQL7 sybase … ??
    Try to talk with those vendors about the design.
    A few visitors on a parcel, information exchange should be lots of peer to peer; while there is not much new information required from the server, that isnt allready known by others (so why download it from your central servers..) If i where you i would contact people who wrote p2p programs and ask their views on the data delivery problem of a region.

  50. Hadessa says:

    Jack,

    Based on in world user feedback and legal knowledge at my finger tips I know that most SL OS owners are seeing this method of business as bait and switch and my legal contacts tell me it is walking a fine line. With any legal binding agreement it is all covered with LL free to make changes at anytime with out absolutely no legal recourse for actions taken and is the right ofthe TURE OWNER to do so, however, my question to you would be why were the owners of the OS not warned of the *abuse* spoke of in your original posting? Was this policy actively being enforced by LL? If any OS islands are being sold by third parties is LL following the in world progress and REINFORCING these RULES. I think if many owners were informed of this issue of misuse personally they would have chosen a different option when continuing to maintain and or purchase the OS. The LL has known what these low prim Sims were being used for * much more than waterways and forests. LL controls SL it is the responsibility of the OWNER to control, maintain as well as Govern.
    I have yet to see one owner come forward and state they were informed they were misusing the islands other than the original intent LL had for them. Why not fault the user who is misusing the OS VS all involved with the price change? I think LL has to do a better job with contract sales with all involved including the OWNER/RESELLER/RESIDENT knowing 100% what the true intention of land use will. When and if land is found to be in violation then the powers to be can take action.
    This is a very bold business move on the part of LL and being personally involved in cooperate business involving contractual agreements people are sometimes illiterate in the arena of contracts, proprietary information etc. However LL must maintain some form of outline in what action will take place and in what manner. A price increase is just that A PRICE INCREASE use whatever words you need to sugar coat it.

    I would certainly hope that it is not the intention of LL to have one sided contracts in true violation in which no effort what so ever placed with reinforcing the RULES while continuing to allow owners to purchase MANY more OS then making drastic changes regarding the fee being charged because correct me if I am wrong LL might have a real RL issue on there hands. If it this is about money then let it be about money let’s not skip around the real issue at hand backed with filler words to throw off the user.

  51. Open Space.

    i think that is would be easy to solve the problem.
    Dont sel 1 iopenspace but a set of 4 = onre server.
    In this place people can use the sime in the way they like, and there are no problems for other share sims.
    If you count back you see the price of 1 opensim is the same as 1 sim. You pay even 5 dollar’s more :-).
    But whith openspace there is a change to keep low rental or sale prices for a bigger land, but lower prims. This is a good think and people like it. So dont raise prises but bundel sims as set of 4!

    Simple some want a open sim he buy’s 4 = 1 server.

    To keep the real idea alive make a new opensim, that doest’nt support scripts, so then they cant be use in a other way.

  52. Alazarin says:

    Why is it that every time I get close to being able to afford to buy / rent a sim that LL goes and ups the prices? I was just about to close a deal on an Open Space sim to use as a personal buildspace and it get snatched out of my paws. Well, don’t complain when I start working in Sandbox Cordova. I build large-scale and that’s why I wanted an Open Space sim….. which I now can’t afford. Thanks for nothing LL. Have a rotten day.

  53. Dennis Lagan says:

    Hi Jack,

    I do believe that Lindenlab did think very well before making this descision about a price increase.

    However, if that is the case, I’m convinced they didn’t think well when they lowered the prices and increased the prim counts for them months before.
    Everyone knew from that point on that OpenSpaces would become a very commonly used type of SIM.

    Another policy change, made by Lindenlab at the same time, was to allow the OpenSpaces to be placed standalone at the grid. This also encouraged the new uses of this type of SIM.
    I don’t see what the usage would be of an isolated 256×256 meter empty ocean or wood, and who would be able to finance this…

    Its indeed correct that the article you mention in the knowledge base states they are not recommanded for other use then scenary. however, not recommended doesn’t mean “not wanted”.
    its even left open for other usages, as it states that you will not respond to poor performance issues.

    I would also like to point you to the fact that an other article in the knowledge base (https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=5198) tells us the following:

    “Openspaces are a 16-acre piece of standalone virtual land. Openspaces run 4 regions to a single CPU, and support 3750 primitives. Openspaces are available to Residents who already own Private Regions.
    Openspaces are offered to allow Estate owners to create open ocean or land in and around their Regions in the same way that the Linden mainland does. They are intended for “light use” rather than Residential areas with large amounts of content or scripts. While they can and have been used in other ways, they are not recommended for any other purpose.”

    they can and have been used but are not recommended… doesn’t say “are not allowed to be used”.

    To conclude i would like to say that Lindenlab tries to bring the responsibility of this different uses to the residents. However, Lindenlab did provide the residents with the tools to start using them different, and should have known very well it would happen.

    If you give a candy to a child, it will eat it. Lindenlab has to be fair, and tell that they are the source of the problems by wrong descisions made in the past.

    For the future, As a cause of this problems, its your duty to grandfather the existing SIM’s, and increase the prices for the new ones only, like you did in the past. Further its highly recommanded, that, when you release a new $75/month product for REAL light use it should have REAL limitations.
    Limiting the prims again to 1875 prims is no option. You can run a laggy club with 100 prims too.

    Also, for the future grandfathered OpenSpaces, i’m sure the higher costs will fade away, as hardware becomes cheaper and more powerfull all the time, one of the reasons for Lindenlab to decrease prices before.

  54. Burnman Bedlam says:

    If usage of prims and scripts are such a concern, why does LL have a couple of builds on OpenSpace regions which mimic the behavior this price hike is allegedly caused by?

    LL raised the prim limit on OpenSpace regions, and now the use of that increase is a problem which everyone who owns one must pay for, regardless of usage? Why would LL raise the prim limits if the use of such an allowance would cause this sort of problem? Don’t tell me you people didn’t expect a surge in usage with a higher prim allowance.

    No grandfathering of tier available for people who purchased these regions before the announcement? An announcement that price increases were in the works should have been posted conspicuously so potential purchasers were given the opportunity to weight their options. This seems very unethical to me.

    Existing OS region owners should be grandfathered under the current pricing structure. Anything less is unacceptable.

    >> NEWSFLASH <<

    In today’s economic news, consumer confidence is at an all time low.

  55. Tickled Pink says:

    Did you honestly think people would use these sims for non-commercial use? It’s unfair to have something like this at all with reduced tiers unless its use is ENFORCED. The main issue with the is that people are abusing the intent the sims were created for. I can’t believe that you actaully thought residents wouldn’t use this is a way to make a fast buck and this would decrease overall land values. We should know by now that the people here and everywhere will do anything for a buck. If you can’t enforce things then don’t implent them in the first place.

  56. Jack, I at one time owned several Openspace sims, even a few of them bought last month! Already in the past 2 days I have opened support tickets up and given 2 of them back to linden lab. I understand people are abusing the sims but I mean I think something needs to be in place to where if they are being abused you get a warning and then after that if it is not followed you can lose your Openspace, I really think and feel that this is something you should do, it’s not fair to go after everyone for something that others are doing. I know for sure a few of my openspaces were affected by other people abusing theirs and caused me many problems but I really didn’t complain the only thing I asked was that for it to be moved to a different server which was done fine, I see a bunch of other game server companies that if you over abuse them they will take them away and shut you down why can’t LL do this? I think as of for now all current Openspaces should be grandfathered. If you really need to keep the new pricing please just grandfather current ones. Honestly if I would have known that the sims would have been this much more I would have never ever bought them so it has been a very big disappoint to me. I do understand LL has running costs but I think that you need to enforce some kind of rule if you over abuse your sims with traffic that you get talked to and then if it continues bam your sim is gone or suspended or something. It’s kind of like cell carriers, even though they offer you unlimited internet if one abuses it then they can terminate the agreement with you, same thing with skype I think if you go over 10,000 minutes in one month then they can close your account it is like a cap, maybe a cap needs to be in place for our sims? And I know this may be off the topic just a bit but there have been times that I have seen full sims being abused as well. Hippie pay is one of them, omg the traffic! I am sure that puts a bug strain on your network same thing as for other in world make linden type of things. Maybe a cap needs to be implemented for all sims? I do know for sure I have seen my share of Full Sims abused as well not just Openspace. I also feel with the new pricing structure for Openspaces this will be putting it out of reach for lots of people, I know a lot of artists and also a lot of other people that have done some amazing things with their openspaces and have caused no lag problems but then I have some people totally abuse them. Anyways that is my two cents, I just want to say I have enjoyed Second Life up until now the pricing is really starting to kill me and in this day in the economy it’s just not a good time for this again just my opinion.
    Thanks for listening

    Digital Digital
    Ps, Jack sorry for my rude IM in world to you

  57. Carver says:

    I agree somewhat with LL. The land is intended for light use and people take advantage of that. If your going to use land for heavier use, buy land accordingly for that use. However, I do believe the increase should only be for new openspace purchases only. LL needs to limit the amount of prims for the light use open spaces.

  58. Carver says:

    LL does need to take some blame for not implementing something in case people do take advantage of the system.

  59. #59 I strongly object to that comment. there are a lot of us who have openspaces who are not abusing them.

    We are also offering constructive ideas for solutions – what we are not happy with is the arbitrary price increase regardless of how we have been using the space.

  60. Burnman Bedlam says:

    Hey Vincent Nacon & Carver, you realize LL has a few OS regions up with as many scripts and prims as most of the regions they are complaining about? And do you realize that a great many OS regions are NOT in “violation” of the policy? And answer me this… why raise the prim limit if they don’t want you to use it? That makes no sense.

  61. Judi Newall says:

    1. Make an annoucement quickly that you are having a rethink and make it at the login page. People are venting, panicking and leaving.
    2. Think about variations on the OS systems, I’ve seen some great suggestions for Low/medium/high use. Obviously even high use will have to be curtailed some how (I’m not a techie) so that it’s lower than an full sim.
    3. Give us guidelines as to what is actually causing problems, scripts?, textures? how do we measure it and what are the limits eg total scripts under 1.0ms.
    4. Give us a few pricing options based on those limits.
    5. PLEASE don’t penalise non-profits, aside from the great work going on in SL these groups are some of your most vocal supporters.

  62. Ziah says:

    I’d like to add one thing to Qui’s Post. I see a demand for a Product between “real void” and “low density”, what i would call “Private Paradise” for strictly non-commercial use. This would be a sim with very low traffic ( maybe 5-10 av max, most of the time just on or two). low prims ( around 2000 should be more then enough ) low script usage. Due to the striclty non-commercial use, i would expect a pricing somewhere between “real void” and “low density”.

  63. Villain Baroque says:

    There is a post on the forum by Paracelsus Schonberg titled “LL Needs to Take Immediate Action” that neatly sums up what a lot of the people I talked to think.

    I post it here so that more people get the chance to read what he says and what seems to me to be the core of the problem:

    [quote]
    Another day is coming – and going – and it is mystifying as to where LL is receiving their advice on how to handle this crises. Whatever PR person is telling them not to face their customers should be fired immediately or demoted to a customer rep and let them get in touch with the customer base.

    For those of you who know me [Ah, I see a couple of hands raised out there.] I have worked for companies much, much bigger than LL, and the approach to these types of problems is 180 degrees from LL’s approach. Their approach works as evidenced by their continued existence, and thriving, and they have the trust of their consumer base.

    Regardless of what you may think or know about Coors brewing, when there is a PR disaster, they don’t have joe schmoo from marketing handle the crises. No, instead the top guy- one of the Coors’ family members – steps up to plate and takes it on the chin.

    This is no longer a matter about a price increase – right or wrong – it is a matter of LL taking swift action to gain the trust of its consumer base. By not acting, the customer base becomes increasing dissatisfied and disillusioned. The most obvious sign of this is the belief that LL cares not a patoee for its customers. If attorneys are handling this fiasco, fire them as well. I know many good attorneys, but none of them know diddly about best marketing practices.

    I know others on this forum have posted similar suggestions, but this is my 2 cents worth:

    • Immediately a message should be posted in-world that links to the forum, or blog, where there is a message from a person in authority – THE person who has the power to make decisions at LL.

    • An apology is offered acknowledging that the effect of the change had not taken into consideration its full impact, and the comments are appreciated in alerting LL to those oversights.

    • Acknowledge LL’s fallibility in not recognizing that its own open sims were part of the problem and steps are being take to correct that oversight, and if conversion is in the final plan then other open sim owners will also be allowed that option at no charge.

    • The constructive comments from the postings will be given serious consideration, and will be posted ASAP for FINAL review and comment by the SL community.

    • A final plan and roll out date for the change is unknown, but LL will do its best to incorporate the suggestions and notify everyone in plenty of time even if it means delaying the implementation date, and . . .

    • Assure the customers that LL will make good on its brand that SL is Your World Your Imagination , and this will be reflected in a culture change at LL to show that it does care about its customers.
    [/quote]

  64. Carver says:

    I agree that the owners who are not abusing the system should not have to pay more for the land. Why can’t LL just lower the prims given to build. That way it can only be light use.

  65. Felix Oxide says:

    Hi Jack.

    Grandfathering all current OSRs purchased before the announcement of the price increase is a good idea. Just don’t allow the grandfathered tier to be transferrable to new parties.

    Also they should all be required to be physically connected to the main estate.

    If you do work out some sort of “light” sim other than a void sim, please keep avatar limits low. We do not need traffic abusers having an inexpensive alternative to regular private islands.

  66. Burnman Bedlam says:

    Carver,

    The prim allowances USED to be lower. 🙂 They raised them.

  67. Carver says:

    Why those silly raisers!!!

  68. I have a suggestion, too, Jack. Though no room to outline it here – but it is similar to Qie’s. A “use-tier” – based billing.

    So I’ll just post the link to my alternate blog – which outlines it:
    http://sociallymundane.com/2008/10/openspaces-communication-opened-again.html

  69. Bud Parnall says:

    Quoting Jack:

    “We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.”

    Jack has redefined the issue…………. I missed that.

    Now they need to offer us options. No one has abused anything. Linden sees this.

    Thanks Jack.

  70. Cher Burt says:

    If i want to have 100 friends on my OS sim and use every single one of my 3750prims.WHY CANT I? That is what im paying 75USD a month for!!!

    I dont by the way 😉

  71. Vex Streeter says:

    @Jack It would be extraordinarily helpful if Linden could explain in objective terms what the original intent was and how what is observed differs from that, also in objective terms.

    For instance, the knowledge base article says that OS sims are meant to be open water (e.g. zero prims), but then says forest is equally good (easily 3750 prims). Talks about not “living” on them, but doesn’t indicate what you mean by “living” (presumably something other than setting your home there?). Light use, but a boat race is highly scripted, may have a significant number of avatars, and involves significant physics. Perhaps network load is the issue, but that isn’t really even hinted at in the knowledge base article.

    If you really did intend on using voids only as decoration and occasional walkthroughs, then IMHO the current Open Space sims seem dramatically overpowered.

  72. Bob Lomba says:

    one thing i havent seen is a post saying what more we’re going to get for the price increase, will the performance increase? Are you going to put less open spaces on a server? how have your costs gone up? I have had 4 open spaces for about a year and just recently went to 8. LL increased the prim count from 1875 to 3750 “encouraging” heavier usage and then they say .. you’re using the open spaces too much so we’re going to raise the prices… its underhanded and will drive people out of SecondLife… me for one.

  73. Bertram Merlin says:

    An end of this is I most close 3 Open Space, We cant afford the raise. Lots of happy people have visited us the time we
    have them and given good respons. I dont think this is about the overload and fhem missuses. Its about getting up a gret Idea Linden Lab could have learned off. Lots of people are happy for the options OS have given. BUT. the mainland and the big estates suffers of lots of unsold Land so I think this is to get people to give up OS and return to mainland or big estate continent. Further more I think OS in private sale was used to finance Mainland Open Space, all 3 of mine OS have a Mainland OS shared, true or not I feell it this way, what ever good risen You can give for this killing raise, and remember some get to pay 62.5 US Dollar more pr. monht included VAT and on top of that a exchange fie. In all I most close our 3 opens space.. Thanks Linden Lab.

    Bertram Merlin

  74. two cents says:

    How can one over-use or “abuse” using an OS? that will remain a mystery….

    People only use what LL has put at their disposal in terms of prims, agent limit and so on. Period.

    What Lindens SHOULD HAVE SAID FROM start is:

    ” Due to a NOT anticipated technical risk from OUR part, figures [to be inserted here] clearly show that WE have a load problem on OUR servers. In order to fix that point WITHOUT INVESTING in more infrastructure devices, we will change the capabilities that OS currently provide [technical figures to be inserted here: prims, agents, scripts, etc]. This will be appicable starting January 1st. For those of you, CUSTOMERS, that wish to keep the current capabilities WE provide as of today, please submit a support ticket, acknowledging you agree to pay a $125 monthly fee in lieu of the current $75 so as to to keep your OS as it is”

    If that REALLY was the problem that is what you Lindens SHOULD have done.

    I believe you are not innocent at all, and are very capable to produce such an announcement. Why didn’t do you it that way?

    Because … that is NOT the real problem, and because you’re hiding strategic moves behind all that.

  75. MaxWellSmart75 says:

    I wounder what kind of abuse LL talking about,People making the OS nicer like adding castles and gardens,and still have extra prims left over like 400 to 600 prims,Why dont LL make the OS more prims like 7500 prims,yes ofcorse it would be extra money in there pocket.
    Also why do you care LL what people do with the OS anyways,aslong people keep feeding you money to buy them.Its out money we payed for the land.is it our right to do what we wish with the land.
    Maybe bring the blasted price down on the full prims sims to a good price so every one can afford them.
    Really I dont care I get flamed on my post about this,I seen pointless post and comments on the blogs and forums.

  76. As I said on the forum, this price increase is very unpleasant for the legitimate users of open space sims who respected the rules, because they have now to pay for others who did not followed these rules.

    This happened because you placed a rule, but did not enforced it, expecting that all the users of SL would be gentle and honest.

    So if you want to take appropriate measures and realy reflect the actual uses of open spaces, please do the following:

    1)keep the today prise for open spaces
    2)hard enforce limittions in prims, scripts, number of people in
    3)for those who want more, create another category, priced between open sims and full sims, with intermediate capacities.
    4) re-enable the possibility for the buyers of 4 open sims to have them all on the same server, to avoid cross-sim lag and issues

  77. Ric Mollor says:

    I won’t comment on the performance issue except to wonder why a planned solution to the current problems wasn’t posted along with the notice of the price increase. Collecting a larger fee for hosting isn’t going to solve the problem alone unless the goal is a *reduction* of the number of OpenSpace sims.

    However, the larger issue is how this will affect Secondlife from the visual standpoint of the user. SL is frequently criticized as being ‘ugly’, ‘outdated’, ‘slow loading’ and ‘having graphics from 10 years ago’. I understand that this problem is inherently unresolvable in a user created world as the efforts of casual users will always look amateurish in comparison to a professional team of game artists working within carefully defined guidelines.

    Windlight helped a bit in this regard by making the skys and water slightly more attractive but also renders much of SL *as* water, creating the impression that everywhere is an isolated island.

    Openspace areas *could* of helped reduce the visual clutter of SL and still could if their useage was more strictly defined. Open vistas of land are visually pleasing but currently are prohibitively expensive at standard hosting rates.

    I’m curious about LLs thoughts on the unattractiveness of SL and the changes that will be brought about by this pricing increase. Reducing the number of Openspace regions (which seems to be inevitable by the howls of protest) certainly won’t help visually.

  78. I would like Linden labs to get it that not all users of SL are honest and peaceful. Every time a rule will be placed and not enforced, you will alway find some who pass over that rule.

    Fortunately not all, there are a lot of kind and interesting people in SL. Don’t make these flee with making them paying for the firsts.

    Banning casinos, paedophiliacs, add farms… were good moves, which increased the repute and useability of Second Life. The loss of business was overcompensated by the increase of honest and useful users.
    Banning content providers (land owners) will uselessly decrease the interest for others to come in SL. Everybody loses, LL at first.

  79. So please explain.

    Why in this time of ressession, when many of your customers are struggling, you plan to add to their struggle by charging an extra US$50 per month per OS sim?

    Why are you charging an extra US$50 per month per OS sim in addition to trying to get the abusive use stopped?

    Answer this: If you get the abusive use stopped. Why charge the extra US$50 per month per OS sim?

  80. Parsimony Paragon says:

    Slightly off-topic, perhaps…

    But can information only published in the KnowledgeBase, which is not exclusively created by employees/representatives of Linden Lab, be considered legally binding upon us, as clients? Especially if there is no specific clause in the TOS agreement we all accept that stipulates compliance with guidance posted therein?

  81. Ilsa Munro says:

    Not too much that I can add that hasn’t been better stated by Qie, Melody, Villain and several other posters other than to say that I heartily agree with them.

    For what it’s worth I’ve noticed a marked drop in my sales this week – I’ve got no hard data to indicate a reason but I have to think that at least some of it might be related to the OS announcement. In turn I’ve put on hold a large (for me) project which of course has trickled down to the person I was paying to build the new structures, as well as everyone who I would have been purchasing products from to support my new project.

    Lastly I’ll add that I’m mystified how anyone could think increasing the prim count and eliminating all of the built in requirements which served to keep OS sims in line – the four to one ratio, the group purchase requirement and most importantly the requirement that the OS be physically adjacent to the estate with which it was associated – would result in anything other than the current situation.

    Good luck and thanks for reading.

  82. One of the issues of open lands abuse was cross-sim lag. I several times saw open sims suddenly becoming very laggy without appearant reason. This is because somewhere else on the grid, somebody was absusing of an open sim to run a nightclub or whatsit, thus hampering the three other open sims.

    So:

    1) please re-enable the capacity for a buyer of four open sims to have them all on the same server. It should even be automatic. This costs LL only 30 seconds of work, and saves hours of customer support and trouble to everybody.
    2) please enable hard limits to the use of open sims, to avoid abuses. Limit number of people, number of prims, etc.

    3) at a pinch an owner of 4 open sims on the same server could have some ability to have his own repartition of resources used.
    4) it could be possible to temporarily and occasionally pass the limit on the number of avs in a sim, for events or games, etc.

  83. Stoo Straaf says:

    Please don’t forget the education users, many of whom use open spaces to create their open campus environments. Removing the education discount equates to a far higher increase than 67% (I saw 222% quoted in the forum but haven’t verified this).

    I also manage an estate for a university that was using open spaces as light classroom areas (sandboxes for practical lab classes). We won’t be renewing that land when it falls due, and in fact we have to now cancel some of our teaching plans. That’s bad publicity right there, and 400 students who will no longer become SL residents.

    I have a colleague whose company just invested US$20,000 in full and openspace regions. They have only been online for a week and already they are talking about pulling out because they can’t afford a more-than-double price increase.

    Sooner or later this will hit the media. I’m surprised it hasn’t already! If the Daily Mail can get Russell Brand sacked from Radio 2 for an “amusing” phone call, what can the media do with the force of thousands of residents?

  84. Parsimony Paragon says:

    In addendum to my #84, information only disseminated during office hours does not represent fair notice if there is no publication of those decisions (in the form of publically available minutes), right?

  85. I once saw a joke, in a railway company, a new commercial fresh from school was revewing all the activities in order to discontinue the ones which were not profitable.
    He reviewed passengers carriages, it was profitable, okay
    He reviewed restaurant carriages, it was profitable, okay
    He reviewed merchandises carriages, it was profitable, okay
    He reviewed locomotives, they earned nothing, so he asked to suppress them.

    I never suspected that one day I would see this actually implemented by any company. Want it or not, lands and builds in Second Life are the locomotives, the thing people come to see first when they enter, the things they come to see and visit. They are the locomotives in a second time, when people start to do things in SL, because whatever we want to do, we need land.

    So, ok, LL, if you don’t believe what everybody says here, make your own experience, and see what happens when you suppress the locomotives.

  86. Tali says:

    I like the idea of differentiating between different uses of openspaces, and I hope they go ahead with that idea and lay down rules which will allow people to buy the type of land suitable for their need.
    I am a little worried about Jack’s insistence that “Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest”. It seems hard to swallow that LL with their March changes to openspaces intended people to pay $75 for having a single, disconnected ocean surface with 3000 prims left unused in the allotted pool. I suspect that Jack is merely seeding the ground for cutting back the definition of light-use openspaces.
    I am fully aware that openspaces are only intended for “light use”. But we need a definition of that “light use”. Whether somebody then chooses to call the server space under those limits a home, a park, a laguna or whatever has *no* bearing.
    With prim-count being the one parameter LL can define unambiguously, I’d say it’s a fair assumption that 3750 prims was the intended light use, and as such the product people signed up to. It makes absolutely no sense to set a specific prim limit and then claim that people should have used less to “keep it light”.
    So the “light use” must be about avatars and scripts. One big problem with openspaces is that while prims (and practically, by extension, textures) is limited to one-quarter of a normal sim, scripts and avatars can still be stacked in as normal, leaving one core to suddenly run four times the avatars a normal setup would be burdened with.
    It would seem like a fairly obvious choice to simply limit the maximum number of avatars in an openspace to one-quarter that of a full sim. (Minus perhaps a bit more if there is an extra overheard which isn’t already factored into the server software and limits).
    Scripts are harder to control, but perhaps the lower amount of objects and avatars will cut back on scripts automatically; there are simply fewer things to script.
    In any case, a better resource tracking and throttling is something SL has needed for a long time, and this may be the final push to actually get it implemented.

    I hope LL is honestly working on a way to impose such reasonable differentiations, and not simply laying the groundwork for a killing off the low-end openspaces by making them unattractive and replacing them with more expensive mid-range sims for rental businesses.

  87. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @78 (MaxwellSmart) by way of explanation of the problem Ill post an earlier comment I made on the forum.

    1 server = 4 CPUs (Quad Core)
    regular full prim sims run 4 to a server, 1 to a CPU
    OS regions run 4 to a CPU, 16 to a server

    The problem is that just because there are 4 OS regions running on a cpu and they have 1/4 the resources, that doesnt mean they present an equivalent load.

    There are 2 types of load to be consider.

    1. Load on the server in the form of shared memory, CPU cycles, storage space, network connection, etc

    The load on the server will affect other regions (15 of them) on the same server as they fight over shared resources. They fight for the CPUs attention (context switching) Space in memory, and access to the storage drives. In particular access to the memory can be a problem because it can end up paging out to disk, which REALLY slows things down. For instance, you run a script that asks the server what time it is, but the server is busy answering the requests of 15 other regions, so it loads from disk the resources necessary to respond to those requests, and if that memory starts filling up it stores stuff its not currently acting upon out to disk, then its your turn, but the information related to your region has been swapped out, so it has to load your data in from disk, and push other data back out again to make room for it. Since drives are many many times slsower then memory, this is an extremely slow process and is usually the culprit in slowing demanding application down to a crawl.

    but this is largely true of regular sims as well, except for the overhead of having 16 running applications instead of 4, the context switching, which can include having to store application specific data out to swap files out to disk.

    2. Load on the backend network infrastructure. asset servers, databases, etc.

    When you enter a region you bring with a description of what you are wearing, including your shape, skin, attachments, and any scripts they contain. The region doesnt know you so it has to send your assetid (and those of all your objects) to the asset server so that it can describe you, to your own client, to any other avatars within view of you, and to the regions on any of its borders. At the same time all the stuff (including other avatars) that are already in the region, have to be described to your cient. It should have already cached that information so its a matter of passign it to your client, but its also busy doing lots of other stuff. alot of which requires communication with LL servers around the world, answering search requests, rezzing prims, etc.

    Im not an expert on simulator design so i may be technically off base on the particulars, so I wont describe it any further then that. I think Argent could do a better job if he’d like, but that should clear up the majority of questions regarding what the specific problem here is.

    Partly they are concerned that they dont want you to use the OS sims resources very much at all, certainly not anywhere near the capcity they built into them.

    Partly they are concerned that OS sims are actually using more then their “fair share” of the resources available to it on the grid because there are 16 applications running, and there is some stuff that each of them need to do in common, in addiotiion to the task of just responding to the sl environment. Thats the unanticipated overhead here I expect, perfectly predictable, if you know what you are doing in the first place.

    They could improve performance in a number – locating nearby regions on the same server could allow them to draw from a localized cache of server assets for instance. And exchange information between each other more quickly (because they can “see” the same things, largely).

    Still, the real problem here is that they created this problem, sold it to us, reaped the rewards, and now are crying foul and want the taxpayers to bail them out while they, of course, get to keep the original profits. – yes, just like RL, except that they dont need the congress to sign off on the corporate bailout.

  88. Jack, this is the part of Qie’s post which is most important to me at this stage:

    “Conversion without penalty. Like it or not, the “unbelievably good deal” of $75/mo OpenSpaces was a product marketing mistake. Such things happen all the time with new products, and LL really should step up and admit that this was their f*-up, not the fault of an evil empire of abusing buyers. Or don’t admit it, but act responsibly anyway: That $250 set-up fee should be credited toward whatever product to which the buyer chooses to transition now. Four OpenSpaces to one full-primmed sim: Free; any fewer: $250 credit per OpenSpace. Also free: choosing “Void” or “Low-Density” for existing OpenSpaces.”

    Please please please consider waiving conversion fees and offering credit on returned sims. I paid $425 for my OS regions but at this stage getting a $250 credit from The Company would be an ENORMOUS step in the direction of mending the broken trust and lost respect.

  89. Epos Imako says:

    I stand behind Quie’s post. Well said!

    I would be happy to pay a bit more for a Low-Density sim if it has slightly more prims and a somewhat better performance then the Openspaces we have now. I would go for a Low-Density sim with -say- 5000 prims, to be used for light commercial or residential purposes.

    If you lower the openspaces to -say- 1500 prims (for decoration) and some limits on avatars and scripts they could become more affordable (they are pure decoration then after all) and less sensitive to abuse. Realistically, you really do not need 3700 prims or many scripts to create a beautiful park- or watersim…

    OK, I would have to save up a bit, but I am absolutely prepared to do that if I feel I get value for it! And I think there will be a lot more people who will not leave after all when this option comes available.

  90. Parsimony Paragon says:

    I’d also like to suggest, in case noone else has, that you offer at equivalent setup/tier costs a ((3xOSS on one dedicated core)) startup package as an alternative to ((1xFullSim on a dedicated core)).

    If I am understanding all the technical information (which everyone has explained so wonderfully through the last few days), the “load” and “demand” for these two setups on the overall grid system (and on the other 3 co-located cores) should be equivalent, so long as we are careful about how we treat inter-OS-boundaries???

    Many, like me, are low-script-intensive/high-space-demanding ambience-environmental builders who would like to have enough space to spread out, but can’t seriously consider as entertainment the ongoing costs of a FullSim PLUS enough OSS’s.

    I think this would also REALLY empower group-purchase/share projects, as well…and I think it would be very fair to tier them out as the “Low-Density” OpenSpaces that Qie and others have endorsed.

  91. @Qie (#2): That’s an excellent idea! A new type of land between Mainland and full-primmed sims – I would be very happy to upgrade the OpenSpace sim my wife and me just purchased into such a low density sim.

    Happy to see that LL likes the concept of this new type of land as well. You almost got me worried there, guys 😉

  92. Qyhat Harbour says:

    Ive just read your latest post. ” We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it. ”

    I don’t know what the hue and cry is… I believe that what you have done is fair… you sold land for specific use. If someone tried to put a nightclub on a small parcel of land in a community setting, all hell would break loose.. The land was sold for a specific purpose, and that was very clearly outlined….. by LL. If users choose to ignore that, and write their own rules… Then LL has a right to review their
    side of the negotiation as well.

  93. HELLO JACK,

    YOU ASK US TO KEEP ALL THIS CONSTRUCTIVE…. OK LET DO IT THIS WAY. I COULD ARGUE ON ARE YOU RIGHT OR ARE YOU NOT, BUT TRUTH THAT’S HAVING NOT ANY MATTER AS IN ANY CASES YOU MADE YOUR DECISIONS SO LET THINK ON THIS OPTION I BRING YOU. TO SOLVE YOUR “PROBLEM” AND TO KEEP SAFE OUR INVESTMENTS AND NOT MAKE OUR HARD WORK BUILDING SL ENVIRONMENT WASTED I PURPOSE YOU THIS :

    #1 AGREE TO CONVERT OS INTO FULL SIM FOR FREE

    #2 AS YOU WANT OS FOR OCEAN AND BOATING SET THEM AT 500 PRIMS ( WHICH IS MORE THAN ENOUGH TO DO AN OCEAN I THINK, AND NOT ENOUGH TO PLAN BUILDING ANYTHING ON IT, YOU COULD EVEN FROM THE STORE ALLOW ONLY THE OCEAN SHAPE )

    #3 SET THE FEE AT US50$ WHICH MORE THAN REASONNABLE ABOUT SOMETHING YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING WITH UNLESS VERY BASIC.

    NOW LET ME EXPLAIN IN WHICH WAY THIS PURPOSE MAY CALM ALL. IN FINE WHAT IS ESTATES OWNERS MATTER? IT IS THIS FEEL THEY LOSE THEIR INVEST ABOUT $$$ AS WELL AS TIME AND ENERGY.

    SETTING AS I SUGGEST :
    -ALLOW YOU TO SOLV YOUR TECHNICAL PROBLEMS,
    -GIVE YOU CERTITUDE OS WILL NEVER BE USED FOR OTHER THAN WHAT IT IS INTEND FOR,
    -ALLOW YOU TO BUILD YOUR NEXT NEW CONTINENT FROM OUR OS AND KEEP DEVELOP ( even if i think it is truely not fair you keep renting plots almost you not ask for the same fee you ask private owners to pay you),
    -GIVE ESTATES OWNERS THE POSSIBILITY TO MAKE THEIR ESTATE REALLY ATTRACTIVE AND FOR AN ACCEPTABLE COST.
    -ABOVE ALL AS RESIDENTS WILL HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE THAT LIVING AND BUYING THEIR PLOTS ON THE FULL SIMS SO BUSINESS WILL BE SAFE AND ABLE TO KEEP GROWING.( IF YOU LOOK CLOSE AT NORMAL SIMS YET YOU WILL NOTICE MANY ARE LOSING THEIR RESIDENT BECAUSE OF OS. )

    NOW JACK, BE NICE AND HONEST ENOUGH TO TELL US THE REAL REASONS OF YOUR DECIDE AND TRUTH IF MY PURPOSE NOT GIVE YOU SATISFACTION I WILL REALITY WONDER WHAT YOUR DECISION TO INCREASE SO GREATLY THE FEE IS IN FACT HIDING.
    PLEASE JACK, DON’T NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE TO THINK WE ARE JUST ASS AND STUPID.

    BEST REGARD JACK.

  94. Roblem Hogarth says:

    Couple of points I would like to rehash if I might. First there is a lot of pointing to the support page about Openspaces (https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4235) and wagging of fingers that we are all abusing the OS. There was never any technical description of how much load is too much load. Anyone can envision a popular public boating area filled with dozens of boats causing more load than say a couple of private homes. So it’s not so much the “theme” of how they are being used but how much load they are getting. Statements like “Openspace regions run four per CPU; as you would expect, this limits their performance”, along with the ¼ price and ¼ prim count versus full sims lead most of us to think of them as “1/4 Sims”. Frankly I was surprised that the avatar limit wasn’t fixed at 25 avatars. So this talk of “abuse” of the openspace offering has really caught us all off guard especially since you, “will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way”

    Secondly we are all trying to figure out how a 66% price hike will fix this supposed performance issue. Is LL going to deploy fewer OS per CPU? Upgrade the excising hardware in some other way? Or is this price hike supposed to send the abusers running? This seems counter intuitive since the “abusers” are likely more able to pay for the increase than someone that just wanted to wrap full sim with 4 water regions. So while the total number of OS will go down, the ratio of “abusers” will only go up compounding the issue.

    I know many business associates that are cutting back or just giving up on SL if this move goes though as is. My partner and I are planning on keeping our OS (at a loss) because we need more functionality than one sim but can’t afford 2 of them at the moment. Meet us half way here LL, and give us more options than just paying more or hitting the Abandon button.

  95. Tayra Dagostino says:

    i don’t understand why if somebody abuse heavily of owned openspace sim (and this conduct damage other 3 lowprim sim owner on same core) you prefer hit who check every X second nobody put scripted object and all other parameters of sim to maintain a good lag level on lowprim, I don’t lease openspace (entire or splitted/parcelized), my 2 OS are woods and mountian where the presence of 3-4 avatar max is already surprising (all time empty or 1 av), and now i must decide if close the openspace sim or not (if i don’0t lease openspace the tier of them are *ALL* on my charge), performance can be garanted by a lot of systems (hint: limits.conf on linux server), this LindenLab decision give me not so good impression… Why not create a new sim typology? Half sim, liveable by avatar, 7500prim, two per core, sellable only in pack of 2 unit (so if somebody abuse damage only himself), increase price to all, hitting both who use in good way OS and who not, is little hard to understand… other “competitors” offer empty sim (less than 500prim, too much for a good detailed boat or a wood/garden) for less than 10usd/month… i cannot believe a so big company like Linden cannot do same…

  96. Bud Parnall says:

    Keeping in mind that many of us developed open sims under developers “that are not responding to communications”

    You would not sell me an os directly unless I had a full sim.

    We have no idea when these sims could go down.

    Some developers have sent out termination dates.

    I do not want my creative property destroyed.

  97. The Guardian newspaper have now picked up on this story http://tiny.cc/pz4oj

  98. Sue Saintlouis says:

    Ok, so for the past 3 days now, I’ve spent 18 hours per day in-world reassuring people, my trusting residents, who are panicking. I don’t blame them, this sudden announcement for such an enormous price increase, right when people will have their credit cards filled with holiday purchases, is about the worst blow I’ve seen in the past two years.

    In all the sims I manage, I haven’t seen much difference in lag (i.e. performance) between the Open Sims and the full-prim sims. In all the Open Sims I manage, my residents have been responsible users. We always advised residents to keep the scripts usage low. When selling an OS, we always pointed out the low impact use. I have yet to experience an issue on the many OS I manage. So, let’s punish them for good behavior, now?

    In the long run, this will hurt LL’s revenues. Most of the people I have talked to are going to abandon their OS rather than pay the increase. Abandoned sims do not bring any tier income. LL, you will be missing that income, be prepared for a significant drop.

    I strongly, very strongly urge LL’s management to dispell the panic and let everyone know you are rethinking and that the jolting price increase is off the table, as an earlier poster wrote.

  99. Bubbles Lurra says:

    We got our original FULL prim sim back in 2006, and decided to get “void sims” at the time you could only buy 4 which cost the same as One full prim and they had to link onto a full prim.
    We have 4 OS sims still and most still have the same 2 or 4 little islands and the same 1 or 2 residents. I set the AV limits to 10 on each as I had Bots as a problem once.
    For me to have the same residents on the same sims for almost 2 years I think is a great achievement and now sadly I feel I will lose them.
    We have very strict rules and covenant covering our sims and we encourage open sailing and 50% of the sim is still water.
    We managed with the lower prims and Linden Increased them…My residents never went made with objects. They placed more trees or a boat.
    Why oh Why are we being penalized for people who over loaded the OS sims?
    We never paid $250 or at the time $75 tier. Ours were approx $1650 for the 4 and the tier was higher. I was pleased to get a lower tier this year. But we have never made any profit from these sims. This was for enjoyment.
    I agree there needs to be a way to differentiate the uses of OS. give me lower prims again and keep my $75 tier.
    I could type here all day but not sure what good it will do or help my situation.

  100. Versealla Sillanpaa says:

    Talk about a smack in the face when I got a message about the rate increase on the openspaces. This news has truly sadden me, First Lindens you lowered the price on the full size sims from $1695.00 to $1000.00 a loss of $695.00 for those of us that paid the higher amount. At the same time with the price decrease of the full size sims you offered the Openspaces at a lower price of $250.00 many of us flocked to purchase these sims. Now this latest news and I must say this news that has left a very bad taste in my mouth. A price increase of 66% from $70.00 to $125.00 is something I can not absorb. Selling them will not be an option because who would want to buy them with the price increase. Therefore for many of us on the last day before our tier fee rolls over will be hitting the abandon button. Three years in this game, many many hours of time and investment coming to unhappy end. A tear will roll down my cheek as I watch my kingdom reduce in size.

  101. Ami Lang says:

    My 2 cents … If you sell a “product” for one price and you increase the price, for any reason, by 66%, you will inevidably loose a large % of your customer base. These customers would normally find an alternative product for less, but in this case, they will simply leave the grid. The land owners of places with fewer people on them will loose income and be unable to pay your tiers.Thus adding to the declining economy in secondlife, not improving it.
    We need some stimulous, not further increases in costs. Or is your goal to reduce the grid size considerably from what it is now? I fear this will be the end result soon if we dont get something to better stimulate the economy and bring more people, who spend on products and services within the comunity. Your customers want to make the grid better, we want to stay, but many like myself cant keep paying these expenses with declining in game revenues. Who will provide game content when all of us are gone? The freebie places maybe….. The Copybot users maybe……. Or the massive amount of Bot av’s online 24/7 maybe…….MAYBE you should consider what you want this to be and set goals to get it there, this continued pushing the economy further downward will have devistating end results!

  102. Joshua Sao says:

    Myself like a lot of estate owners can handle lag on our own estates and don’t need the Concierge /customer service to handle it. All you need to do is put our OS on the same servers and perhaps force people with out even sets of 4 to buy more to even it up. Than just give us the tools to let us handle our own estates.

    I also don’t think anyone would object to a purchase price increase because that increases the value of their current holdings. But a tier hike will force almost everyone to start giving sims back to LL. I can say off hand if you do the tier increase I will be giving you around 16 OS back.

  103. SeanD Serpente says:

    remember who is the builders of SL. remember who made SL the way it is today..remember who is making all this into ur benefit? we are….
    when sl atarted it was nothing…who made it into something?? we did…don’t forget that jack.. we created ur bussiness

  104. Stefanie Stringer says:

    Selling someone 1/4 sim for 1/4 of the price of a full sim, giving them 3750 prims and then expecting them not to build and create something beautiful there is like selling a taxi cab and expecting the person who bought it not to take any passengers.
    In times of recession it’s not wise to antagonize your faithful customers, content creators, and most active residents.
    Be arrogant and face the consequences, or be wise and keep openspace as it is and keep your customers happy.

  105. dzogchen says:

    If I had the smell feature Ive been asking for ages, I could have smelled this happening for miles away.

  106. shawn suisei says:

    Hello Lindens,

    First let me say that in the several years i have been in SL i have seen significant improvement in its performance, good job and keep at it.

    Now, more to the point. I work in the marketing dept of a multi-million dollar computer accessories company, we make products that are used in the medical field and for providing computer access for folks with physical handicaps.

    In watching Second Lifes growth i had finally seen that stability and peak daily usage had reached a point were a presence inworld would be beneficial to us in terms of product placement. In the last couple of weeks i even got my boss to create an avatar and come in world to see what it was all about and discuss costs and the possible benefits to the company.

    And now after i have taken the risk and stuck my neck out in support of investing in an SL presence, i am going to have to go back to my boss and explain to him that the cost estimates i gave him may be WILDLY off, and that perhaps its not the right time to be a part of SL.

    As im sure you understand, a corporation needs to be able to make accurate predictions of costs for a marketing path, and a sudden, dramatic, overnight increase of costs to one of your land products does not inspire confidence.

    I will not pretend to have even the slightest understanding of technical issues behind your current difficulties, its out of my purview, but its clear that i will have to cover my own butt on this one and put SL on the far back-burner until you have sorted out and stabilized your pricing structure.

  107. in fact the problem is that Linden Labs is in a situation of monopoly. There is simply no credible alternative to Second Life today, no one had the idea to provide the full set* of services to allow anybody to have an easy and pleasant Second Life. Anyway, to run a virtual world on a private server is not free, and not easy not for everybody.

    So we all love Second Life… and will shall all be really sad if it becomes over expensive and we lose it.

  108. Doug Tweak says:

    The price increase on Openspace SIMs has nothing to do with performance.

    Openspace Sims have been drawing away people from mainland. Mainland, not openspace SIMs, are the root of the problem. Consider this, if 25% (and I have no idea of the actual number) of mainland is empty then Linden Lab is loosing 25% of what they could have as an income.

    Openspace Sims as a product are more popular then mainland land. This is undeniable, and can be proven by the tremendous success of them.

    Linden Lab is worried about the decreasing interest in the land THEY manage. It is someone’s misguided idea that they can hedge their losses by increasing the prices on openspaces and 1) either get more income from the price increase or 2) make it more attractive for people to move to mainland.

    They keep presenting the issue as a performance problem and will ultimately have some compromise that will still cost us more money and have it cheaper, albeit less desirable, to be on mainland.

    IT IS NOT A PERFORMANC ISSUE. Yes, there are instances where one openspace sim causes a performance hit on the other three Sims hosted on the same processor. This is nothing more then a technical issue can be addressed in many ways. I own and manage 40 openspace Sims, all running fine with 1 to 5 residents on them. Occasionally there is lag on one of them. First I check to see if it is caused by the scripts of one of my residents. It hardly ever is. So I reboot the SIM, it picks up a different processor and guess what – lag is gone. Why, because the cause was not on my sim. It was from another one of the 3 Sims running on the same processor and the reboot caused me to be hosted on a different processor.

    So – what is likely to be the LL response? I’ll let you know. If they think they will loose too many customers and good faith they will back down. If they think they can get away with it they will try to either scale down or price up openspaces. Again – the reason being to make it more attractive people to live on mainland.

    But Linden Lab – you fully miss the whole point of things. Many, many people have chosen openspace Sims to live on because they ARE BETTER in their opinions. THERE IS NOT A HUGE OUTCRY of performance problems. Readers, don’t take my word. Read through the 3000 plus posts in the forum. MANY people who actually live on openspaces attest to loving it there. Many other owners of several openspace Sims indicate Linden Lab is exaggerating the performance issue.

    Finally – I highly encourage all residents on openspace Sims to let Linden Lab know if you are likely to 1) pay more to remain on your openspace or 2) be willing to live on UNMANAGED, UNREGULATED, Laggy mainland.

    Keep letting them know that in the face on a global economic downturn many people have less disposable income for games. That their performance excuse is blatantly being used to move you to their “Less Popular Product” – Mainland.

  109. miffed says:

    If the goal here is to price me out of my OS and onto the mainland, it’s not going to work. Mainland sucks. The combination of “no covenant” and abusive RENTERS (don’t say you don’t see them every day) make mainland NOT attractive, at any cost. I would only rent on an estate again.

    And if you’re going to CHARGE me half of what a regular estate costs, I want the HALF THE BENEFITS of a full estate sim (prims and CPU).

    I’m happy to pay my “not on the mainland” tax. But I’m not going to sit down and be screwed by this.

    It was a fun 2 years, LL. I made a lot of friends who I will miss dearly.

  110. miranda Ashby says:

    … QUOTE…
    -Why increase the prim limit from 1875 to 3700 if one were not supposed to build in them?
    -Why allow them to be placed standalone, if they were meant as extensions for view?
    -Why cash in on conversions and sales when Linden Lab knew what they were used for?
    -Why did Linden Lab themselves have Lowprim sims that were “heavily” built?
    … END QUOTE …

    Some very powerful questions there that goes right to the root of my issue with this, I had to restate them here because I want answers to these questions as well.

    The ‘performance’ issue is confusing to me since we ALL know who live on OS’s that the performance goes into the trash when the sim fills. You can’t move, you can’t rez, you can’t do much. When the other sims on the server fills, it gets worse.

    So what great performance are we to get … or will get now?

    By LL increasing the prim usage on the sims everyone was INVITED to explore and develop it. Everyone was ENCOURAGED to use the sim other than what LL’s initial intentions were. You can’t change the playing field and not expect people to not take advantage of the new situation.

    If a sim is to be void and water/scenic only, then drop the price accordingly as well as allowable prims/main agents.

    Offer an “estate ladder” as you do with mainland tiers. Each type of sim has it’s price according to the amount of prims/main agents it will support as you do with acres/Linden tier for mainland. Given that tier has been a founding option with Second Life, why this wasn’t through of in the first place is someone seriously dropping the ball on your end.

  111. ZenWarrior Fuosing says:

    It appears those who are complaining the most and loudest are the same ones using Open Sims for purposes very clearly contrary to the concept of “space, empty areas of ocean or forest.” And from my observations and experiences, it seems many of those people are the same ones offering land, rentals, and tiers at far cheaper rates than those of us not using Open Sims can offer.

    Those individuals/groups willfully skirted the clearly stated and intended uses of Open Sims for their personal gain, but are now the ones complaining the loudest. Well folks, it’s now time to pay the piper.

    You have enjoyed your excess profits and competitive advantage by taking advantage of an oversight by LL, and even its delay to act more quickly. (That delay may well be the worst aspect of this issue.) You’ve no right to complain now that the playing field is again being made a bit more level. Welcome back to fair competition.

  112. Iget Iwish says:

    I recognize this as a business deicsion and there are probably underlying(undisclosed) reasons such as cash flow behind it. Profitable companies have failed because of ‘success’ of a new product demanding more cash than the day to day business provides.

    If that is the case, I suggest a lottery system for new OS contracts so that the additions can be regulated to match the resources.

    In addition, I suspect that the CPU resource taxing in OS is more associated with active scripts than prims. Perhaps defined limits on the resource intensive objects is more in order for OS.

    If an OS owner is using excessive resources, then they should be given a timeline to correct it (ie 60 days or else), depending on the infraction.

    The downside risk of continuing the policy that goes into effect January 1 is having a LOT of servers go idle because of vacated OS’s (and some affiated full SIMs) and still having to cover(eat) the depreciation expense for how ever many months/years until regular SIM business growth utilitizes them.

    Sort of like owning a campus of empty buildings after a relocation or layoff. It is an inescapable expense (or ball and chain around the neck while on a sinking ship).

    How do I know about such thing, well, let’s say that there are more than 15,000 multiprocessor quad core servers in RL Linux wolfpacks behind my office in a company we sold off (Thank Goodness).

  113. Alisha Matova says:

    It has been mentioned to me that my recent silence on this subject worried them. Granted it has, more realistically, been only a few hours since my last comment. But, as someone who preaches the effects of apathy I feel that I must….

    Jack, We pay You a lot of real life money to do a job for us. Please stop pretending this is a democracy and tell us what You are going to do!

    I am sorry to take this tone, but the hostility comes from the business environment you created.

    Alisha

  114. Nyalee Mirrikh says:

    Please reconsider,
    The situation is far worse then I think you’d want it to be. This is affecting businesses with all the people protesting buying L$, buying land, etc.
    I fear I wont be able to keep tier payments on my full sim if this continues in the downward trend. The economy in RL is crap, and those who are not abusing their sims, and those who don’t even OWN OS are being punished. This is a disaster for all of SL…

  115. Nagash Demina says:

    After reviewing the comments over the past several days, both here, in the forums, the Jira, and personally speaking to those in-world, the consensus is clear: In one fell swoop, Linden Labs has created a rift that may be well-nigh irreparable.

    This could not possibly have come at a worse time, that much is clear. What also is clear is that, at face value at least, this is an extremely poor decision, for a myriad of reasons.

    Jack, for you and the company to claim that the OS are not being used as originally designed is utterly untrue. They are being used *exactly* as they were designed, and now you (I refer to you, Jack, as meaning LL as a whole, not you specifically), are unable to deal with the explosion of usage that has resulted.

    That is not our fault, and we should not be penalized on it, for those of us using the OS as built, prim to prim, as they were made.

    We have also seen, in previous exampled and posts throughout, of LL OS that clearly are examples of what you are claiming they were never inteded to be (though from previous posts that number seems to mysteriously be dropping). It has not gone unnoticed, for you as know, Jack, *we* the Residents are very aware of the world that *we* have created and continue to create, and nothing gets by our collective noses for very long.

    Also, I feel I must comment on another issue, one that may or may not have been widely reported as of this writing. There have been numerous Groups created to voice opinion and for we the Residents to organize our thoughts and our voices and our colllective energies to determine how to best address this most volative of issues. However, from what I have been made aware, and from what I have seen first-hand, those groups and it’s members are being targeted, from groups being shut down to members being banned.

    This is not acceptable.

    A previous poster mentioned forming a governing board of Residents to be just what we the Residents need…a single unified collective voice to serve this community as a bridge between Linden Labs and the Resident community as a whole.

    I support this wholeheartedly, given recent circumstances, and personally feel this is long overdue. We are the Residents, we have a voice, and that voice must be heard, both as a voice of the Residents, but for the Residents, and by the Residents. It is needed, and needed urgently, and needed desparately.

    I will direct your attention to the top of this, and every other page on SL’s site, which states very clearly “Your World. Your Imagination”.

    This is *our* world, created by us, designed by us, and it should have a collective voice to speak for us.

    I welcome your thoughts and the thoughts of those interested.

  116. Eve Express says:

    It is outrageous to raise the rent 66% on ANYONE period, but it’s very bad business practice to try this during an economic crisis, when the last place people can or will spend their money is in second life.

  117. Lizard Howl says:

    Hi Jack, Lindens, everyone.

    I don’t have the time or inclination to read through the thousands of posts so forgive me if I repeat what has already been stated.

    As an Estate Owner I understand the risks of doing business in Second Life, since the Lindens can drastically affect my business at any time, with or without warning. In the last year I have lived through the pricing decrease on sims, the Mainland deflation, and now this.

    What’s next? Who knows….

    I think the Lindens are being sneaky (to speak politely) by happily selling thousands and thousands of Openspace Sims to us Estate Owners, then making us Estate Owners out to be the bad guys.

    That point aside, I respect that we are playing in their sandbox, and they can and will change the rules at any time.

    Fortunately, our residents know that I need to make a profit to keep paying tier. I may lose one or two, I’ll gain one or two, but overall I’m not finding this to be the catastrophe that everyone is making it out to be.

    Anyone with a bit of common sense would have seen this price increase coming months ago. The Openspace Sims were underpriced from the beginning.

    What happened in my business was all of a sudden there was no market for 1/4 sims, it has been harder to keep full prim sims full, and I was selling them off or converting them into Openspace Sims.

    It is more than a little pesky that I’m now having to reverse the trend, pay more transfer fees for converting back into Full Prim sims, but overall I say – what’s the big deal?

    Lindens – thanks at least for giving us enough notice to warn our residents. And if you want the respect of your paying customers, accept the blame for your own mistakes, don’t deflect it.

    Thanks for listening!

    Lizard Howl
    Segarra Estates Owner
    http://www.SegarraEstates.com

  118. I’ve been watching the posts, here and in the forum, with interest over the past days.

    Jack; you say that you are reading our comments and that you will respond. So far, apart from a comment at #3 in this list I’m hard pushed to find out what you think.

    There is such a groundswell of feeling here and it feels like you aren’t listening. You have concerned SL users from a wide variety of backgrounds who are keen to stay in world but you aren’t making it easy. They are offering you solutions, they are genuinely trying to help.

    I’m a full-time SLDev and I train and support organisations who want to use Second Life. This is impinging on my RL livelihood (as it is no doubt many others).

    SL is nothing without the users. I could move to OpenSim but I like the community and sharing that goes on in SL. You have a very good product here – please think carefully before you wreck it.

  119. Ciaran Laval says:

    All those who keep saying there were strict guidelines on how to use these openspaces or that people are abusing them are talking tosh.

    Voids were being rented out before the change in the product. However there was one key feature of the new product that quite clearly changed the way Openspaces were viewed by the community, the ability to place one at an available space anywhere on the grid. That signalled that they were not extensions of a current sim, that they weren’t open waterways, who the hell puts an open waterway in the middle of nowhere?

    Pointing to the knowledgebase article now is disingeneous Jack, the horse had bolted. There is no way on earth that Linden Lab weren’t aware of how these sims were being used.

    However, in August you detected there might be a problem. A month or so after a gleeful economic post stating the explosive rate in Openspaces and advertising their availability, advertising their tier fee and nowhere, not once mentioning in that post that people were using openspaces for open waterways, because you guys knew then, and residents knew then, that they were being used for more than that.

    However they weren’t half selling well weren’t they. However continuing to sell a product with a problem, as you seem to be admitting, was foolhardy in the extreme. Linden Lab were selling and continue to sell this product. You were happy to turn a blind eye to them being rented out to other residents.

    The fact is Jack that Linden Lab caused this mess, blaming the residents is rather low in the customer service stakes to say the least.

    Take resposnibility Jack, for your actions. Take responsibility for the fiasco you have caused. Grandfather existing sims, make the new price changes ASAP for new purchases or, stop bloody well selling a problematic product.

    Ladt but not least, Linden Lab, hire someone with customer service skills, because customer service does not involve putting all the blame on your customers and hitting them with a 67% price rise.

  120. Sonja says:

    Take a look at this interview with M the Ceo of LL

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10074637-52.html

    Hmm ask myself if he is in the virtual world or a dream world 🙂

  121. Richy Nervous says:

    First, I don’t own any open space sims. But open space sims directly affect me as I assist Doug Tweak in managing his estates. I have to raise a flag concerning your comment Jack:

    Quote: Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent.

    Ok, maybe originally that was the case. You all even basically compelled that by charging $450 for each open space, had to buy in a group of 4 and it had to be attached to a regular sim. Then you lowered the prices, you doubled the prim count and even changed the fact that you no longer had to own a regular sim to attach them to.

    What did you think people would do with an unattached open space sim? Create a pond? Create a forest with 3750 Linden trees?

    Jack, at the top of the Second Life web page, it states “Your world, your imagination” We imagined an estate or low usage residential lots, we imagined an estate that was without the drama, lag and unchecked mahem of mainland and we have achieved that by using a product and tools provided by you in a creative way (and in a cost effective manner by using open space sims).

    Now how about admitting this isnt the best way to raise capital for SL and getting people back to the mainland (Sorry, we’re not buying the performance issue excuse) and giving us back the rug you ripped from beneath us.

    You want to raise capital? You want to get people to move to the mainland? I (as can many others) can give you and your team constructive suggestions to do both without your torpedoing what so many have worked so hard to create.

  122. annotoole says:

    Dearest Jack,

    This appears to be what began causing the extra load on the back end:
    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8503

    It looks like your programmers caused the entire problem and not people using Open sims for a few extra prims or to stand on. I urge you to look at this defect. The appearance at this time is that you are not even aware of this defect so apparently there is no “stop cord” at LL so a mere mortal at the lower levels can alert management they may have made an error.

    Take a look at that pjira entry. Might save Secondlife if you took the time out of your busy day to do so long enough to fully realize it’s ramifications.

  123. Dear Jack:

    I spent many hours designing and building a beautiful Island home for me and my partner. There is a mangrove swamp, stands of Palm trees, tropical flowers, and secret underwater gardens to explore. A pirate ship stands docked on one shore, and an antebellum mansion in the middle. Scripts? A few, mostly passive, other than a few seagulls flying around. Load? its rare for more than two AV’s to be there at any one time. I think the maximum was 20 during my partner’s rez day party. It seems to me that this is EXACTLY the sort of use you had envisioned for OS sims. Non commercial, just a few AV’s at ant one time.

    My question is this: if you raise my tier on this island by 66%, what do I get for it? What are you giving me in exchange for this huge increase in price?

    I Think its clear that there need to be multiple levels of OS sim. I know many people who have created lovely parks, or sailing areas, or other low impact uses. Clearly, these are the folks who could use the “Old rules” OS sim to great advantage, and, if I may suggest, at a lower price than $75 per month.

    I think that if LL really wants to encourage richness of content, then you need to back off on this price increase, especially in times of an economic downturn. Work with us on this. Its clear that the ways in which we are choosing to use the resources that LL has made available to us are changing and growing. Grow with us. Don’t shut us down by making it too expensive to continue.

    And please recognize that many people, like me, have invested their time, money, love, and creativity in these OS sims. Don’t force us to lose that investment by making the maintenance costs unsustainable.

    All I am asking for, is a chance to work out equitable solutions for everyone.

    Thank you for your time.

    Best Regards,
    Daaneth Kivioq

    P.S. Come visit the Anna Maria Island estate, located on the Adonis Island sim sometime.

  124. Salamol Paragon says:

    By giving residents 3750 prims, what did you expect them to do? Place down 3750 1 prim trees? Just not use them? Come now, you are adults, intelligent ones at that, why would you give somebody that many prims to make ocean?

    I am an estate owner, I use an OS sim to create a number of islands with a few houses on, nicely spread out. The majority of my sim is water, the houses are fully furnished using low prim/script items and furniture. I have no performance issues on my sim, and in fact I can safely say that I’ve never even been to a mainland/private sim that runs smoother.

    It would make no sense to pay the $295 a month as I wouldn’t need or use the prims for what I want. For the vast majority of us, that is ALOT of money, even $75 a month, for a bunch of pixels, most in the real world would call me crazy.

    For me, the OS sim meant that I could create something beautiful, and uncluttered. A paradise, and I could make a little money at the same time. Raising the prices means I will have to pass the increase to my residents.

    What really confuses me is that, you say that the sims arn’t running properly because of this “abuse” by certain owners, and yet your “solution” is to lower the total amount of OS sims by forcing people out. Only, the “abusers” will stay, and those that don’t make money (The ocean sims, the fields, the open areas, the INTENDED users) will be forced out. This won’t improve performance, it will just cause people to give up what they’ve created, and afterall isn’t that what we came here to do?

  125. Bez Bueller says:

    I find it hard to believe that LL didn’t foresee that a lot residents would take advantage of vague definitions of usage.

  126. Alexandra Rucker says:

    Let’s hear the REAL reason for the price increase – because “excessive load” really isn’t it!

  127. J.Meili says:

    “empty areas of ocean”

    Yeah, exactly! Let’s pay $75 … no wait, $125 for water … the same water that surrounds a sim for free!

  128. Lemuel Recreant says:

    tread softly, for you tread on my dreams

  129. Very Hypocritcal says:

    Jack, Thanks for the clarification over the usage of open sims. You do realise you have Open Sims in your showcase that are built with prims to serve as shops and commercial ventures?

    Isn’t your endorcement of such useage of open sims as part of the Showcase an indication that Linden Labs have really got this decision wrong?

    I won’t name individual sims in this blog – but anyone can trawl through and see the amount of open sims acting as shops in the showcase!

  130. Mys Csak says:

    I will probably have to give up my os sim too I currently rent one .. and once the new prices go into effect I will not be able to afford it .to bad anyone cant just purchase them .. that You need a full prim sim first .. lot of people cant afford a full prim sim cause they so pricy ..
    Thanks Mys Csak

  131. Sunrunner Homewood says:

    The following reads as a fact sheet but is simply a suggestion for consideration, as I am unfamiliar with the technical aspects off any such proposed implementations. In specifying the details, it’s been my experience that it really isn’t so much the prim and/or agent loads, but the scripting loads, that affects the regional performance the most – and I used the 22ms number from a previous conversation I had with a very knowledgeable person. I, on the other hand, am not informed but simply guessing! 😉 Obviously and of course, different people will have different experiences. I based the tiered setup fees (I agree, let’s call it what it really is: since we don’t “own” any tangible property, or indefinite use of services, by “purchasing” an island simulator, the cost of a region is in reality a setup fee.), as well as the tiered monthly maintenance fees, on the straightforward concept of quantity discounting. With the placement constraints I simply wanted to offer a justification for the value added oriented price margin steps, as well an example of possible market niche fulfillment strategies. Some technical considerations would be to automatically allow for load balancing on clustered servers? I know just barely enough about that to make that sound good, and yet be very dangerous unfortunately! :} So I don’t know if that’s a realistic/cost effective possibility while maintaining cpu segregation(? ^.o), nor how that would impinge upon Qie’s suggestion of “hardwiring” estates (http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/ post #2). Then again, maybe it’s time to consider an alternative method anyway, since from what I’ve been reading that, technicalities aside, co-hosted regions are in fact affected by the overall server load even with simulator isolation. On the enforcement side of the equation, wouldn’t it be possible to set soft and hard threshold flags? Cross the soft threshold and the region/estate owner gets notified, cross a hard threshold and the region gets rebooted? Over-threshold induced reboots can further trip flags to recommend regional assets/possible use-level upgrade (say one to three in a month?), a “take action” notice (say four to six reboots within a month?), and “regional shutdown until action taken” notices? With that, why involve staff in processing an up-/down-level use request? It may play a bit of havoc with revenue forecasting, but offering automated services would go a long ways towards off-seting that, I would (in the strictest sense I’m afraid) imagine. For instance, if I knew I wanted to host a three-day event, and am concerned about regional capacities, I’d be happy to pay for a weeks worth of up-level time, rather forego making such a payment and make do as best I could. I would think that restricting level changes to weekly segments, as well as possibly a yearly limit of no-cost changes, would help limit capricious use of such an ability. Offering an option to down-level my seem counter-productive, but if I was forced some reason to consider abandoning or selling out of a region, but instead had the option available to retain ownership at a reduced monthly fee – albeit, without a setup fee refund of any kind, I would be extremely grateful for such an option. And even though that would mean one less simulator in general circulation, it would make it much easier for me re-utilize the region to a fuller extent down the road. In the meantime Linden Lab would still has a revenue stream from a now under-utilized region – allowing for more overhead to maintain performance during load spikes, would need to provide an additional region to someone who would’ve bought mine in the current scenario and would have the distinct chance of regaining an up-level customer. All of which would help everyone’s SL-experiences, and anyone involved in marketing understands the value of a positive word-of-mouth reputation! 😀

    1) “Full-use” region
    Prims: 15000
    Script loads: 22ms
    Recommended agent limit: 100
    Setup fee: $1000 US
    Linden Lab’s monthly maintenance fee: $295 US
    Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims
    Market niche: for those owners who intended to fully utilize sim capacities

    2) “Heavy-use” region
    Prims: 11250
    Script loads: 16ms
    Recommended agent limit: 75
    Setup fee: $775 US
    Linden Lab’s monthly maintenance fee: $225 US
    Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims
    Market Niche: for those owners who wish to offer similar capacity densities as possible with a full sim, but wish to incorporate a modicum of “open space”
    area(s) within the region.

    3) “Moderate-use” region
    Prims: 7500
    Script loads: 12ms
    Recommended agent limit: 40
    Setup fee: $550 US
    Linden Lab’s monthly maintenance fee: $165 US
    Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus the same ownership of at least one “Full-use” or “Heavy-use” sim required
    Market Niche: for those owners who wish to offer fairly equitable use of capacity and ambiance

    4) “Light-use” region
    Prims: 3750
    Script loads: 8ms
    Recommended agent limit: 20
    Setup fee: $300 US
    Linden Lab’s monthly maintenance fee: $85 US
    Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus the ownership of at least one “Full-use” sim required
    Market Niche: for those owners who are more concerned with the aesthetics of a region, rather than it’s capacity

    5) “Ambient-use” region
    Prims: 1875
    Script loads: 4ms
    Recommended agent limit: 10
    Linden Lab’s monthly maintenance fee: $45 US
    Setup fee: $175 US
    Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus must be placed next to any “up-level” region of the same ownership
    Market Niche: strictly to enhance the ambiance of surrounding regions

    Just some pixels to contemplate! ^.^

  132. Sunrunner – I’d definitely go for that plan. I could see me having a mixture of types to give me more flexibility.

    All we have to hope now is that Jack & Co are listening 😉

  133. Edward Griffith says:

    ATTENTION ALL – ESPECIALLY JACK!!!!

    I urge everyone to read the latest in the Jira regarding the long standing Texture BUG that has been affecting SL. ( SEE VWR-8503)

    Thanks to Balpien Hammerer’s detective work. He has uncovered a series of bugs, some confirmed by Dan Linden, that have a potential DRECT BEARING ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE. Here is the text of Balpien’s post from 10:52 PM yesterday:

    “Dan,

    I sent you a log file that represents me hanging out in “The Faery Crossing”, a full SIM. This is in my store, so there are textures everywhere, this being a market. I remained stationary and just waited for about 30 minutes. During that entire time the texture console shows a continual download. There is a download burst at the beginning followed by a continual never ending download as the scrubbing forces cache replenishment. Zak confirmed this behavior. I would be good to see other confirmations.

    Imagine now, 50,000 people logged in, all forcing continual downloads. What a thought. It is at this point that I wish to suggest that the “overuse” of resources in SL, was a distributed denial of service attack brought on by faulty SL viewer code. I think that any observations and decisions made about the system overloads and SIMs in the last few months (well, for as long as the bug existed in the 1.20 viewers) are invalid because of this bug.

    The good news is this can be fixed!

    Reproducing this seems fairly easy. Just hang out in a texture rich place. You need sufficient textures so that the ones in your view will get flushed. This then forces the continuous download loop.”

    WOW!!! Doesn’t that shed new light on this entire issue???

    Jack – In light of this evidence, it is evident that Linden Labs needs to immediately place this entire issue on hold, and reevaluate ALL your thinking going into this decision. It quite clearly is likely BASED ON FAULTY DATA.

    Noise about proper use, value for services, etc. is meaningless when we are ALL paying to maintain a flawed system. Any metrics you have regarding load and use are worthless if you have been undergoing a self induced Denial Of Service attack.

  134. Steffen Ewing says:

    Hello Jack !

    Not easy times… and SL has perfomance problems.. i know.

    1rst i must say the comment of QIE is also for me very very constructive….

    But now i must say my english is not good enough to explain my thoughts and ideas all in english,, but i know u have german people which work here too .. please give my ideas to them .. and pleas read this too… please

    following in german language:

    ich habe eine Low Sim bei Folie´s Estates ( Yanis Dollinger )

    zur Zeit nutze ich ca. 3000 Prims / 200 – 300 scripts / und ich lasse nur 15 Avatar-Maximum zu.

    Diese Sim nutze ich, um daraus eine der schönsten Inseln in SL zu machen.. Sie hilft mir von meinem Job abzuschalten ( Ich bin Unternehmer und produziere Prudukte die Energie einsparen)

    Name der SIM :DREAM BAY ( Gruppe La Habana Beach Club)

    Meine Ideen :

    3 verschiedene Arten von Low Sims

    1. reine Wohn und Treffpunkt Sim 3750 Prims max 300 scripts max 10 Avatare…. kein Business

    2. Shop oder Club Sim 3750 prims max 300 – 400 scripts max 20 Avatare — mehr zwingt zum Zukauf einer zusätzlichen Low Sim. Small Business mit maximal 20 Produkten

    3. Full Sim ! Für jeden der grosse Shops oder Clubs halten will… das kann nur auf einer Full Sim gehen. Alles erlaubt, 40 Avatare wie auf Mainland

    1.. Ein SIM Qualitätssiegel schaffen ! ( OS Quality Sign / Stamp)
    dh. der Landlord prüft (* siehe unten) regelmässig alle seine Sims, ob die Werte eingehalten werden. Diese Meldung geht monatlich an Linden und wird statistisch festgehalten.

    Die Sim erhält dieses Zeichen vom LLord zugeschickt und muss vom Land Lord auf der Low SIM gerezzt werden! Für jeden Besucher sichtbar!

    Bei Nichterfüllung wird eine Mahnung auf dem Land der Low Sim gerezzt. Nach einer kurzen Frist muss die Insel wieder in der Norm liegen, oder es erhöht sich die Miete automatisch.. Beispiel … 10 Tage alles normal = normale miete — aber + 20 Tage + 40 % weil Wertung überschritten. Das wird die Leute schnell erziehen , denn wer will schon mehr zahlen. Kann wie eine Strafe gesehen werden.

    *Das ganze könnte ggf. ein Script bewirken, welches auf der Sim eine automatische Kontrolle betreibt.. ähnlich wie bots…. es meldet automatisch an Landlord.

    Dear Jack…. that´s only a small brainstorming.. I don´t know if good or not…. but the Quality sign for LOW SIMs .. might be a “the idea” which could help most.

    I would pay 25 % more for Sim version 1 — and 40% version 2

    i only want to use Sim Version one.. 3750/300scripts/10 Avatar

    Thx for reading this

    Many regards

    Steffen Ewing ( Germany 🙂 )

  135. Bud Parnall says:

    During the time Jack refers to as , related to the increase in system resources showing up caused by the os sims, the new Mono server software was deployed. It caused a huge drag on the system and was rolled out several times. Scripted sims were virtually shut down. My script time increased to 57ms at one time. The system is only recently back down to normal.

    Look at the threads on the recent rollouts.

    They are only now working as designed.

  136. Kira Mirales says:

    Sunrunner’s plan is the solution, but i stated a explanation like that in the forum a few months ago. Anyway, its accurate and exact and i hope LL will use it as base for further decisions.

  137. Only we can not assume the entire loss.

    1 -) conversion of the 4OPENSPACE TO 1 FULL … FREE

    2 -) With 3 Openspaces or less, return of investment or aid to buy a complete 4 for conversion.

    3 -) choice of date of the new tier of the island that will be formed with more than 30 days after the creation of it.

  138. Nice brain storming you made SunRunner but honest, LL is already having difficulties at managing 2 simple categories Full or Light Sims how the hell will they suddently be skilled enough to manage so many differents ones ?

    Smiles.

  139. Eve Express says:

    Removing the educator discount just proved this was all about money, for me. There is no other reason to remove an educator discount.

  140. Nagash Demina says:

    Re: Sunrunner

    Having a tiered system would have been interesting, had that been initiated from the beginning.

    Hindsight is always 20/20, as they.

    Since it was not, the logistics of implementing it now would seem to be vastly great, and not to mention would throw the current sim owner/estate owners into even more chaos than it is now.

    Would have been nice, but a dream world can only have so many dreams. We must face the situation with the resources and statistics as they are now.

  141. Kira Mirales says:

    Steffen, dein wort in gottes Ohr 🙂 Das mit der erziehung scheint bei den amerikanern irgendwie auf taube Ohren zu stossen. Seit langer Zeit predige ich denen dass, aber nützlich wäre dass.

    Steffen, your word in gods ears 🙂 The “breeding cause” put by the americans to numb ears. I told this since a long time, but useful it would be for shure. Waves and poofs again to the Lindens :))

  142. Felix Oxide says:

    @133 Sunrunner
    The only issues I have with your plan is that it completely ignores mainland. Mainland sales must be in the equation for pricing to be balanced. Also, your avatar limits are far too high. They should be much lower with a final huge jump up to a full sim. I would cut out the “heavy use” region you propose out of fairness for those that have the huge expense of a full island.

  143. Dar Ryba says:

    I looked through to see the responses from Jack, but alas there is only the first one. As a business owner in SL, who owns one full sim and two OS, my costs have just become prohibitively expensive, while I had a solid business model a few days ago.

    I will probably abandon business in SL now, since the economy is completely unstable, and subject to change with no significant consultation with the business investors.

    These kinds of (apparently) arbitrary pricing changes should not be possible in a proper economy. RL governments do not announce nation-wide mortgage increases of 66% to the principal after a land sale is made.

    Linden Labs gets to set the initial pricing models for new services such as Open Space sims, but should then be restricted in making changes to the model.

    The only way for me to have my faith restored now, in SL as a business investment environment, is for Linden Labs to announce an Economic review board that approves changes to economic models, e.g. say 10 members, where 50% of the members are non-employees of Linden Labs, and changes require a simple majority (at least 50% + 1). The Linden Labs members should include technical staff as well as marketing/business staff. So for example, 3 business employees, 2 technical staff, and 5 non-LL board members.

    Without this kind of economic policy change review, I no longer have any faith in the SL economy, and SL has now just become a game environment for me, for fun only. I entered SL for business simulation reasons, and after nearly 2 years, I may be forced to abandon all of that due to LL toying with the economic model whenever they feel they aren’t making enough money from something. I was already screwed on my full sim by paying $1695 for it, only to have the price drop to $1000 a month later. Thanks LL. Goodbye to SL being a serious business environment.

  144. Naomah Beaumont says:

    Some thoughts on how to resolve this before the lynch mobs (and/or their lawyers) get to Linden Labs’ San Francisco headquarters.

    1. Grandfather existing OS sims. Sorry, LL, you screwed up. Own your mistake, fix it going down the road, and move on. Throttle the OS sims so they respect the limitations /they signed up for/, and then let them alone.

    2. Make new mainland. Yes, you’re doing this, but I can’t imagine I’m alone in noticing that places like Bay City only have land blocks larger than I can own with a basic account. If you think I’ll pay you increased tier after all this, you underestimate my mistrust of you. Make more land basic users can buy.

    3. Fix resource allocation in the regions. This means that, in addition to the prim limits, a mainland plot would have a hard limit on the number of avs and the number of script cycles they can consume. This, along with real zoning and enforcement, would go a long way toward making the mainland not the newbie ghetto it has been. I own a little slice of mainland. I know it’s only a matter of time before some club with camping opens up on my sim and performance goes directly to hell. It’d be nice to believe that all SL players and small business owners are conscientious about their resource consumption, and are skilled enough at scripting to write code that doesn’t waste resources. It’d be nice to believe in the tooth fairy, too.

    4. And this is the biggie, and is the long term solution to the problem the openspace sims currently address. Productize the sim code. Make a private sim product so we can *buy* the actual SL region server code (mac, linux, and windows, please). Make that product so we can run it either with our own asset servers independent of SL, or with asset caching from the SL asset server. For people who want their own sims for development, for their homes, and so forth, many of whom are using openspace sims presently, this would allow them to have what they want for a reasonable price without clobbering LL’s datacenter resources. Asset server caching would be *less* asset server intensive than having those same avatars logged into the main grid, since once the asset was cached on the private sim, it wouldn’t need to be accessed again unless it was changed or deleted. Obviously, teleportation from the main grid to the private sims would need to work, but you’ve already tested that capability.

    Private sims would need to have full scripting, full havoc support, and as mentioned, a way to participate in the Second Life asset economy at the option of the owner, which is why I’m suggest making a product with a license instead of just supporting the opensim initiative.

    Above all, though, you folks need to announce a better solution *soon*. Then you need to follow through on it in a timely fashion. The crowds are already gathering, and the pitchforks, rope, and lawyers are already being brandished.

    -Nao

  145. G Roux says:

    All the complaining and fussing is irrelevant. Linden Labs is a company. The reason for the change does not matter if you’re not a shareholder or employee. They offer a service for a fee. They’ve decided to change the price for that service. We get to decide whether to pay the new price for that service or do something else. It’s called business.

    I rent an openspace sim from an estate owner. I use it residentially and I’d say 50% of the time it’s empty, 40% of the time it has one AV and 10% of the time it has 2-3 AVs. I’ve got houses and trees and waterfalls… just stuff it was fun to build. No significant scripting (only doors, windows, texture rotations…).

    It’s pretty easy to see that they meant for the openspace sims to be filled with more stuff (they upped the prims allowances). It’s reasonble to assume that they knew this meant we’d have single-resident sims. (or openspace water with 3750 little prim shrimp floating around in it). So now they’ve decided that should cost more. It’s their computer, it’s their software, it’s their game, it’s their right.

    I can afford the $119/mo I pay ($75 + Estate upcharge). I probably can’t afford what’s likely to be $169/mo that it ends up being to rent it.

    So I box it up, stop renting, and return, disappointed, to being homeless. Maybe I wander what’s left of SL, maybe I take more RL walks, maybe I watch more TV.

    What I don’t do is think that I’m somehow *entitled* to play SL. It’s a business. They want to earn as much money for doing as little work as every other slob out there…. myself included. I’ll play it until it costs too much to afford doing what keeps my interest and then I’ll find something else to do. But what do I know, I also don’t protest the local putt-putt when they up their fees too.

    What’s all the drama about?

  146. Joe says:

    I am sure all this has been said already but I will throw some constructive criticism in.

    Communication
    ———————–
    The way this was rolled out was and still is a mess. This seems to be a trend of re-inventing the wheel when it comes to policy changes. Make a policy change, watch the uproar and reverse a decision to something more realistic after upsetting a good majority of residents and gradually destroy the support and trust your customer has in you. There should have been an email sent to all the OS owners saying simply: “Hey here is the issue that faces us at this point. We need to find a solution to fix this problem. We have some ideas but before we make any decisions we would like to know your opinion. In the meantime try to address it on your end by overhauling your regions and shooting for these target performance numbers. If we don’t see a significant change in performance in the next few weeks we are going to have to institute policies to better control it until we can find an acceptable resolution.” After that email was rolled out a blog post should have followed that made the issue known to all users asking the gird as a whole to support estate owners in streamlining resource usage. Giving residents the ball and allowing them to address the situation as best they can on their ends will help build trust and work towards a more productive resolution.

    The feedback forum thread should have been limited to one or two posts per person. Instead it gets filled with a furry of worthless, unnecessary posts. There are a handful of people that have nothing better to do other than troll the forums and respond to everything they possibly can. State your opinion about the issue at hand in move on. If you have the need to continue a dialog with your fellow trolls; open another thread.

    In my opinion communication is going to break LL as a company. The majority of SL users seem to be responsible and would work as a community to reach an amicable solution. There are many extremely talented members of this community that offer help and suggestions on a regular basis and there is nothing wrong with turning to them now to figure out a game plan. But, the way this situation has been presented it was more like getting hit upside the head with a brick at 4am.

    Another issue under the communication umbrella is information and education. There should be/have been some hard facts in the knowledge base on sim performance and load tests. Information such as what kinds of numbers are acceptable for any type of region. Even some info on what to look for and how to improve performance. I’d bet a large percentage of openspace owners and managers don’t even know how or what to look for in the tools menus or sim statistics menu. And a good majority of residents do not even know what Mono is or its benefits.

    Bottom line, better communication=happier community and better reactions.

    Solutions to ponder
    —————————-
    I think the ‘behind the scenes’ process of the land store should change and the allocation/placement of regions should change.

    Anyone who owns 4 or more regions should have all of them on the same cpu’s. Critics would say well that will just slow down order time when new regions are purchased b/c someone will have to fill an order. Simple fix: New region orders fill as they currently do but locate on a temp server in queue to be moved as time permits by the tech dev.

    Simply grouping regions by owner will probably decrease overall load on the grid. Less traffic between multiple servers, less region_handoff errors and most importantly it will force estate owner to police themselves. If they are going to abuse the system resources they will be forced to deal with the drain on their other regions that share that cpu. You will still have a larger percentage of owners that cant/wont fill their own cpu but it would at least help a good portion of the problems we are faced with today.

    Introduce a new product and rename the openspace product. Create a low end product with a limitation of 500 prims and a low script/avatar limitation and a requirement to be connected to another region. Solely for open water or forests or connectors between other sims. Treat it as Openspaces are currently meant for but at a lower rate.

    Change the openspace product to a mid-sim. Since the current figures and usage seem to take twice as much as originally expected make a mid scale product that offer 3750 prims with a script/avatar limitation. Pack two per cpu and price it accordingly.

    The introduction of a truly low use product, now, would take care of all those who currently use their regions as originally intended. It would at least give them a choice to downgrade and not feel like they are being robbed or forced out.

    During this change process offer a 45 day grace period on the fees for combinations of four openspaces to one full sim and on openspace moves as long as they are being moved to connect another region.

    Like I said, I am sure all these issues have already been mentioned by others and they are worth kicking around the lab. Bottom line, in my opinion, a well informed community is a more understanding community.

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