Open Grid Public Beta begins today

Last month IBM and Linden Lab demonstrated inter grid teleports between the Second Life preview grid and an Opensim instance run by IBM. Torley Linden made a video of the event. Now we are making the intergrid teleport code available for all developers interested in making virtual worlds interoperate. Today we begin a public beta program for all prospective “gridnauts” (a gridnaut is anyone who has successfully teleported between virtual worlds).

This beta is intended for virtual world developers. The purpose is to establish a base level of interoperability — no inventory, textures, or attachments will transfer upon intergrid teleport. You will appear on the target grid’s simulator as that grid’s default avatar (Ruth). Second Life resident Tara5 Oh has a walkthrough of the Open Grid Beta Program.

An avatar from the preview grid, who just teleported to an OpenSim region.

A gridnaut from the preview grid, who just teleported to an OpenSim region.

In the first phase of the Beta, we are working with OpenSim developers to allow teleport between the preview grid and a patched version of OpenSim. Zha Ewry of IBM has contributed code to the OpenSim project that implements the Open Grid Protocol.

If you are a virtual worlds developer and want to participate in the beta, see the Open Grid Public Beta page on the Second Life wiki.

Along with the OGPB work, we’re also sponsoring Pyogp, an open source client library and test harness code base being developed jointly by AWG members and Linden Lab. The client library fully supports authenticating on the agent domain hosted on the Preview Grid.

This is a historic moment in the development of virtual worlds, and we look forward to your participation.

Whump Linden, OGP Beta Manager

About Whump Linden

An engineer at Linden Lab.
This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Development. Bookmark the permalink.

136 Responses to Open Grid Public Beta begins today

  1. Pingback: UgoTrade » Blog Archive » The Open Grid (Beta): The First Step to Interoperable Virtual Worlds

  2. votslav hax says:

    …beam me up scotty!..

  3. Meade Paravane says:

    Need to lose the trailing / on the wiki urls, Whump!!

    (feel free to delete this comment)

  4. Ceera Murakami says:

    “no inventory, textures, or attachments will transfer upon intergrid teleport”

    So… what does it accomplish again? Merely that you can use one client application, account name and password to log on to multiple grids? If nothing but your name transfers, that sounds pretty worthless to me. I can already go to any of the other grids, and create an account that uses the same name and same password to log on. I get the same result – a Ruthed avatar that has absolutely nothing in common with my Sl avatar other than the name.

  5. jordi says:

    @4

    As the article said this is just for developers, users wont get much fun right now seeing themselves as Ruth

    SL is very complex, the login protocol is documented and reimplemented by the LL server and everybody else interested in that.
    Little by little other protocols will be implemented and what is today a login test bench will be an interconnected mesh.

  6. Alvi Halderman says:

    OMG….i’m dowloading it right now

  7. Remley Bishop says:

    I can only imagine what the future of virtual worlds will look like with this. I’ve heard some talk with the anouncment of the testing of inter-grid teleporting saying this could be the death of Second Life. I disagree with that thought. As Second Life has been around for years now, with all sorts of talented content builders creating content, assuming this will eventualy allow a transfer of assets (builds, textures, and whatnot) then all the new open grid virtual worlds will have tons of residents teleporting thier avatars over to Second Life in order to purchase the wonderful things that already exist here. The alternative would be to reinvent eveything elsewhere, but even if you have all the textures, prim measurment, scripts, etc., it will still be a pain to put it all together again. Second Life could become the shopping destination of all Open Grid virtual worlds.

  8. Raban Laborde says:

    A smal stp for an Avatar – a big Step for the Metaverses..

    This is great!

  9. Marianne McCann says:

    Now it gets interesting…

  10. Pingback: Linden Lab opens it’s world — mrtopf.de

  11. Kevin Oto says:

    I think after they get all this done.This will be the next Web.

  12. Zanthor Shiras says:

    Ok… The thing about this that I find most interesting is that it opens a door to the user creating their own virtual world on their own home machines… albeit, I surmise that working out the details of where and how what inventories are/can be shared all come down to how the bucks will still be paid out… but it drives home the point (or should) that what most experienced SL’ers realize and want is to be able to have their own virtual real-estate on their own machines which would/will impact SL’s prim-based (real estate driven) economy. The costs of connecting to the “main grid” will be dependent on the remote grid’s estate size (aka prim allotment). What say ye?

  13. Meghan Dench says:

    @ 4.

    That’s a manual and long process and is NOT what has been accomplished here. That’s a new account you are talking about, THIS is Teleporting one account between Grids.

  14. Xio Jester says:

    *says in super-villian voice* I’ve been waiting a long time for this…

    Yeah, all the kinks ain’t worked out yet, but this still marks a big cornerstone in what’s to come. Watch.

  15. pantaiputih korobase says:

    cool, we will be able to buy nice land with low or no tiers in other virtual worlds and TP to SL then to camp and earn our money there[irony]
    [seriously] a big step forward towards competition, thank you LL

  16. Winter Ventura says:

    What’s to stop someone from logging into another grid, using the name “Winter Ventura” (or Whump Linden for that matter) and then teleporting onto the Second Life grid?

  17. Blinders Off says:

    LOL, forgive me, I truly don’t mean to be disrepsectful, but…

    What this seems to entail is, 1) Yup, this guy has an avatar here 2) Transfer his identification to a URL (cos nothing else is being transferred).

    OK, OK, fine. Glad to see LL thinking in that direction. But chee people, this seems like a lot of horn blowing over a simple data transfer, the likes of which is done a gazillion times a day on the internet. I know everything needs a first step, and I know first steps lead to additional steps. I also appreciate you keeping us posted. But it seems that this is a lot of premature PR. I understand the future POTENTIAL… but a simple transfer of data from computer to computer?

    Let us know when you start allowing INVENTORY transfer, and we’ll start blowing horns for you. 😉

  18. Blinders Off says:

    And scuse for the double post, but I have a couple of questions I believe to be fairly valid:

    How does LL propose to transfer avatar IDs from system to system when…
    1) We have a considerable number of failures just teleporting from one sim to another
    2) When SL can’t deliver a simple notecard to all the members on a group list
    3) When SL fails to handle common chat without timing out and mixing up the order of chat from the same person
    4) When asset servers regularly lose customer inventory?

    Before pursuing transfer of data with external systems, maybe LL would be better off to pursue cleanup of data transfer within its own system.

  19. Ceera Murakami says:

    @16 Winter, at this time, there is nothing whatsoever to prevent someone on some other grid from using names already in use in SL. In fact, they have no way to even know the names are already in use.

  20. Jahar Aabye says:

    /me is glad that Blinders Off’s type has been ignored throughout history or we’d still be living in caves.

    With regard to inventory transfer…not gonna happen. Not now, not in the future, not ever. Too many IP issues. It’s too easy for another grid’s virtual machine to steal my scripts if you can take products that you purchase from me onto another grid. The potential for theft would be far greater than that already in existence on SL.

    Now, it is possible that some sort of permissions protocols could be worked out within a limited group of grids that would allow transfer between those grids that support said protocol, but that’s a LONG LONG LONG way in the future.

    Remember that your inventory exists on the SL Asset Server. Why exactly would it be a good idea to permit other grids to access the SL Asset Server? And why should we treat LL’s PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED Asset Servers as if they were somehow public property?

    Under the ToS, your inventory assets are technically the property of Linden Labs. The Intellectual Property (such as copyright and trademarks) may be yours, but the assets themselves that exist on LL’s servers are the property of Linden Labs.

  21. @4: It’s called a first step.

  22. Miss Nomer says:

    Glad to see the first steps of this! Good luck developing it further!

  23. Remley Bishop says:

    @18

    If those things are your current major complaint, then I don’t see how you can be oposed to actions which might allow you to escape SL with your stuff to a more stable grid where those problems are non existant.

    I seriously doubt that all LL programers are working on this right now. In fact, it seems this is being moves to a public beta (see the headline of the blog post) which means they are letting whom ever wants to work on this go ahead and do so. This should effectivly allow more development without using more LL (or IBM) resources. That doesn’t mean all your problems will be gone tomorrow, but it does mean there will still be poeple working on your problems today.

    @15

    As far as owning land on other grids is concerned, I feel it will probably be popular for residents to own land elswhere, but for buisnesses, SL will be like a central hub of virtual worlds, so there will probably be interest of maintaining presence in SL to sell virtual merchandise. Also, although you could camp for L$, who’s to say that virtual money will be of any use in a different grid?

  24. Congratulations! The evolution of this process will be fascinating to watch and I’m glad I have a good seat. These are the beginnings of multi-dimensional metaverses (however humble or fraught with risk they may be). “To boldly go…” and all that…

  25. Dark Otsuzum says:

    LL developing the original SL Sim software – clever
    LL developing the original SL Viewer software – clever
    A N Other developing the compatible Open Sim software – clever
    Tweaking a viewer so it logs off an SL Sim and logs onto an OpenSim and calling it teleporting – rather trivial actually.

    But I do like the spirit of the idea of compatibility.

  26. Michael Takakura says:

    @4…

    Sure you can download every virtual world client…

    But that’s like the early days of “telecomputing” where you had to have installed software for CompuServe, software for Prodigy, software for America Online, and whatever terminal software for your BBS… Then have to configure and know how to use each one…

    Fast forward to today, where one web browser of your choice can get you to the front door of any site on the Internet. And cyberspace became much much more accessible…

    And as for “I can’t transfer inventory or appearance between worlds”? Let’s again look at our lives on the Web… What you have on one site stays on that one site and doesn’t move with you! I can’t poke around my Amazon wish list while on eBay, I can’t check my bank statement from Reuters, and even eBay pushes me out of their website when I want to change settings in PayPal.

    Interoperability IS a huge step forward!

  27. Argent Stonecutter says:

    So, once you have teleported once, if yu set up some inventory and customize you avatar on the other grid, if you teleport back to SL and then back to OpenGrid, do you STILL show up as Ruth or do you get to keep your modified inventory and avatar?

    Get *that* working and things could begin to get interesting.

  28. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @4: I can already go to any of the other grids

    You can also move from region to region in SL by logging off and logging back in to your destination, but I’m guessing that’s not what you normally do because it’s not necessary.

    @17: but a simple transfer of data from computer to computer?

    If I had a nickel for every time someone who doesn’t actually understand what I do told me they thought it was “simple”…. *sighs*

  29. Hulk Ah says:

    This will only lead to more copyright infringement on other grids which do not even have a DMCA proces like Linden Lab.

    bad idea..

  30. Cool thing that should bring some movement into the 3D world 😉

  31. Macphisto Angelus says:

    Saying “yay” here just doesn’t do the moment justice.

    This is very cool and an exciting time. I can’t wait to be a gridnaut and do my first cyberwalk.

    Thanks to LL and the OpenSim project people! Lots of hard work going into this. Truly a historic moment in cyberspace.

  32. Curtis Dresler says:

    I agree with Zanthor that it will have to be based on prim count, since the asset server would be the main issue – all the dynamics would be run on the client end and my server.

    Inventory is everything. You can already download packages that let you do a full host of a region or two on your home PC or server. I have two on a server and needless to say, with little on the asset side and one av, they run fairly quickly.

    Second Inventory is the only program that I have found to move inventory from Second Life to my regions (no complaint, by the way, it does what it says it will). It is also how I would have to move inventory, once I decide what grid to use, since you essentially at thispoint create a new region on joining the grid. It is slow, but works for most full perm items. I would love for them to create a builders’ version, once complex items move well, Then a builder could sell me an item in Second Life and deliver it to me properly crippled, perm wise, on my region and grid.

    Long term? Obviously as indicated, how they move inventory with an avatar as it crosses a grid line is the first critical issue, and I would put my money on some buffer/cache where permission issues could be controlled and asset server load not jump sky high. The second issue, perhaps less obvious, in my opinion is mass movement of regional inventory from one grid to another OR the grids will still have the whip hand. If I have a region of other than full permission items and I have no way to move them with my region, other than repurchase, then the grid still has the upper hand.

    And then, what if I have renters and I move and they don’t? Hmmm… Group owned items on a region that is about to move ffrom one grid to another…. Ahhh, well, should be a simple task for a long weekend for some young programmer.

  33. Pingback: Metaverse3d.com » Actualité Beta Recherche » Ouverture du programme OpenGrid version Beta par Linden Lab.

  34. Jonathan Snow says:

    What I find very funny is that the Opensim project were a group of hackers who were succesful in “reversed-engineering”. The fact that Linden now tries to bring the connection like their idea, is infact a great succes for the people that were frustrated with Linden enough, and technical capable, to start building serious compettition. Please don’t think Linden wanted this. They just have to jump along now because otherwise they will loose the battle for the 3d worlds. It is not IBM’s OpenSim. It is Opensim used by IBM like you and me can start our own grid using Opensim server software. Maybe IBM helped the project, but it is defenatttely not IBM’s OpenSim or Lindens OpenSim.
    A big aplaus for the Opensim team. I think this is the greatest achievement ever made bij “reverse engeneering rebels” :))))

  35. Unhelpful Informer says:

    Here is some information to educate yourselfes (AKA, not look stupid when you comment)
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Structural_Design (Warning contains technical information, not responsible if your mind explodes)

  36. Curtis Dresler says:

    The naming issue probably may not be that big a deal, depending on how much room is actually available in name fields and registers. If they have room or can expand name registers, then a Curtis Dresler.Second Lfe type protocol would work. You might even join a grid with a more flexible naming allowance to get the name you want.

    That said, if the name register is at its limit and there is no way to truncate names or easily expand the field and register, then those young programmers would have to spend another long weekend with their coffee and Mountain Dew.

    So, what, we’re talking sometime in late August to have this all resolved, right? Someone crack the whip.

  37. This is great work, all.

    Please remember that the success of the 2D internet was based on some very simple features, so basic and so indispensible that nobody dared to update or change them (save the ipv6 affair):

    URL = http://subdomain.domain/tld/path/file.ext

    where: http:// stands for the exchange protocol (mainly downloading files): Hyper Text Transfer Protocol
    and: “subdomain/domain.tld” identifies a SITE, and “domain.tld” identifies an OWNER

    Similarly the success of 3D navigation will rely on a similar structure:

    vrip://world/domain.tld/path/resource

    where: “domain.tld” still identifies an owner as in the 2D internet, but now “world/domain.tld” identifies a WORLD (or a GRID).

    where “vrip://” (or any other name) stands for Virtual Reality Interchange protocol. Such a protocol is more complex than the http, as it deals with many kind of different resources (files, chat, movements, teleports, animations and physics, inventory transfers, etc) in both up and down ways. So it must comprise a way to define new kind of streams, as well as object programming allows to create new kind of variables or resources. As a matter of facts, we soon shall have to deal with streams which are still unthinkable today, such as contact or smells.

  38. Great to see this happening. :)) moving forward nicely

  39. Christos Atlantis says:

    This is amazing work LL, you are by far in the forfront of virtual world technology, I cannot believe some of the comments posted in this blog, truly crazy stuff!

  40. Pingback: Annie Ok : tangent » Open Grid Public Beta launched by Linden Labs

  41. S. Voom says:

    a new future beginns not only for us, even more for LL.
    I can see on the horizon simple rentable sim-hosting-services like web-hosting-services 🙂
    Integrate a grids-overlapping-identity-service and we will be able to sail with our ships between grids 🙂
    /me waves a happy ahoy over to all the developers

  42. Joshe Darkstone says:

    A naming scheme can be as simple as adding a middle name, unique to the grid it was registered on, or adding a suffix of some sort that unuiquely identifies the grid in some way. Of course the other option is to agree on centralized servies in a single location. A service LL is in a unique postion to be the provider on. It will indeeed be interesting when you can “pack your bags” (inventory) and go gallopping around the metaverse… but then again, really just an extension of the grid from the users point of view isnt it? If it works right you wont even know youve left the grid.

    Certainly opens up some interesting opportunites for solution providers tho… and land is about to become… worthless? Might as well run my stores on my cable connection and just “hook up”, as long as services and payment methods are transparent.

    we shall see what we shall see. I agree, interesting first step, perhaps even “historical”, but hardly an amazing technical feat. Basically teleporting between sims is disconnecting from one and connecting to another while maintaining a common authorization state, sorta like going from one page to another in a website wihtout having to log in to each, so here we’ve managed to share auth information between 2 websites – coolies 😛

  43. This is so amazing 😀

  44. Pingback: Virtual White · A Bridge Between Second Life and Opensim Grids

  45. sirhc desantis says:

    This is an historic moment. I also agree pretty much with the comments from Curtis Dresler. I’ve fooled around with some of the alternagrids and its been fun. Even my old steam driven PC backup can host a sim. But when I can move my inventory (all perms respected of course – hey I build stuff too) between the grids – well SL will remain my ‘homebase’ for as long as it exists but what a blast that will be. Imagine – designing, building, testing and tweaking on your own isolated island, then introducing your creation to the metaverse. Wow. One warning – anyone trying to use voice on my private sim will be – laughed at lol

  46. Pingback: New Tǝrm: Second Life ‘Intergrid Transport’ « Common|Sensible

  47. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Jonathan@38: Linden Labs encouraged the LibSL and OpenSim people who made this possible from a very early stage. I’m still surprised that they have continued to remain this open about the protocols and interfaces… most companies would have started obfuscating and encrypting the communications and shut down the open source client.

    So (a) I don’t think this is a matter of LL showing up at the last minute to pay themselves on the back, and (b) even if your insinuation was true… accepting such a _fait accompli_ so gracefully would itself be laudable.

  48. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Hulk@30: You can’t transfer inventory, you can at best create an incomplete (scriptless) copy using libSL. I’m still unclear whether you can even retain an inventory on the other grid independently of the SL grid, or whether you’re given a new ‘proxy’ account that’s Ruthed again whenever you show up.

  49. Jani Pirkola says:

    realxtend has a modified viewer that can be used to teleport around. Between realxtend worlds you have your inventory with you and the avatar appearance transfers too. I sincerely hope that we can get that working at Open Grid soon!

  50. As to names, I wonder when we will start seeing people called things like, “Ashcroft Burnham.secondlife”? 😉

  51. Curtis Dresler says:

    Argent, that’s not true. Second Inventory does transfer items that has full permissions now. Its a one item by one item process.

    That’s why the extended naming convention will be important. A Second Inventory style engine that uses an extended name to complete a transaction with the item delivered with proper permissions to any grid is necessary. Uer Name. Grid Name should be enough.

    I do agree, though, that there will never be a cross grid asset server, where you can cross and use your inventory as freely as in SL (when everything is up and running, that is). I think it will be like being in a sim where all the choices for ‘All Residents’ have been turned off.

    Finally, search needs to be beefed up hugely, eventually. Whether you will ever be able to go to a InterGrid Search tab is problematic, but right now the search feature in most open grids (maybe all – I haven’t found a functioning one) is crippled, because using the SL client means it looks to SL and the other clients don’t look anywhere or also look to SL. Your search is the map grid and TP around, Not much point in arriving at a grid and having no idea where you can go or what you can do.

  52. TheCoolLeader Boyer says:

    If it’s not being hosted on your systems you have no right to deny Teen Grid users access it should be the choice of the person hosting a simulator if they want to allow Teen Grid users access to their OpenSim not Linden Lab’s choice because right now you’re simply preventing Teen Grid users from taking any part in this just to needlessly cover yourselves just as you always do.

  53. Buckaroo Mu says:

    I don’t see a problem with “duplicate” names – we’ve seen the solution to this ages ago in the world of email. Buckaroo Mu @ SL or some such. Go for bonus, and display the origin grid (where the account was originally created) only when on a foreign grid (any other). So somebody grabs a Linden last name, TPs into SL, and they show up as “M Linden @ There” (shudder).

    Imagine this, though – my first thought upon hearing of all of this. I throw up a decent server, put four regions on it and do a bitchin’ custom build – allow people to TP into it to explore it. They don’t necessarily need their SL inventory. Say it’s a RP sim, robot-themed – fill a library with robot avis, let them wear & customize (or create their own, on that micro-grid) – asset storage should work, even after leaving the grid and returning. So instead of “TPing” to your favorite RP sims, you “TP” to your favorite RP GRID, and have all of your RP items available. Helps prevent griefing – no griefing tools in the library, nor brought over from SL. Have to be recreated in the new grid, and with a much smaller clientele, would be more easily policed.

    Another example: You want to run a game, let’s say “Tron” themed. You TP into the micro-grid, and your default avi looks like your average “Program”. All the content is created by the folks running the micro-grid, except that built by visitors. Everyone has a light-cycle in their library. When de-rezzed, POOF, you get “TPed” back to SL (or whatever your home grid is).

    When this goes public, you can sure as hell bet I’ll have at a micro-grid of my own hooked in.

  54. I only have one concern: If I use this method to login to an OpenSim, does it in any way expose my SL username and password to that grid? If that is the case: what happens when all this works and someone adds a teleport link from their land in SL to their OpenSim with the intent of capturing login information? Sounds like a very dangerous situation.

  55. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Curtiss@54: *any* object that has full permissions, even if you’re not the creator? That wasn’t true when I was experimenting with it. I gave up on it as a backup tool for my own work, by the way, because it wouldn’t handle recursive transfers. I need that to backup my own creations that rez objects… like my teleporter.

    In any case, I wasn’t (intentionally) casting aspersions on anyone’s tools (whether based on libSL or OpenSim or whatever) the point I was making is that OpenGrid login isn’t making copyright violation any easier, I hope you agree with that. 🙂

    So… anyway…

    Can you answer the question I asked earlier?

    If I teleport to OpenSim from SL, create some stuff in OpenSim, teleport back, teleport to OpenSim again, will the stuff I created still be in my inventory on OpenSim?

  56. Jen Shikami says:

    With regard to the idea of exporting SL objects into other grids in the future… Think carefully about what that could mean for creators in SL, and for the uniqueness of your own purchased inventories.

    As a creator, I will be watching with great curiosity to see how other grids will be able to reassure me (or reassure LL? trust certificates?) that their grid’s customized, open-source software is going to bother respecting my copyrights. Or if the software doesn’t, that their Terms of Service will back me up.

    Unfortunately, it sounds like object exports into an OpenSim grid will result in fullperms status for that object — see this Reuter’s article:
    http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/07/24/opensim-charts-path-away-from-second-life/
    Key quote: “In OpenSim, by default, no copy protection will exist at all.”

    Now, I do understand that that statement is just based on technically-minded honesty (SL is not 100% secureable either, after all. But I appreciate the permissions flags that LL has built in to discourage piracy.)

    But glib “get a lawyer” tech-dev-focused explanations aside, I look forward to the long term PR for OS grids. What will grids that want to recruit creators do to reassure us that they have some policy to help us in case of piracy? And so on, and so on.

  57. #58 – Argent, from my experience with OpenSim, as long as the Asset server portion of it is running then the inventory is persistent.

  58. This is really a exciting moment, despite the bad comments, the effort of making inter-grid transport become true is a great achievement, and all of we should be happy, other issues will be fixed with time, as they always have been 🙂 LL you impress me more everyday. There will be someday when the Second Life based grids will expand across the world with lots of new sims for holding virtual worlds. And well preventing teens from access other grids is as easy as adding a age verification before TP.


    Greetings from the SecondSolutions team.
    http://secondsolutions.wordpress.com/

  59. Mr. Little says:

    @57

    Your not logging into OpenSim, you’re teleporting to an OpenSim. You’re already logged in so you will not be sending a password to the OpenSim.

  60. Shannon Lean says:

    @ #12

    I AGREE!!!!! Not only would this help ease up the LL servers but it would allow people that cat AFFORD SL land to FINALLY be able to OWN land.

    LL PLEASE take this idea into consideration!!!!!

  61. Whump Linden says:

    Thanks for your questions, I’ll try to answer some of them below:

    Ceera @4: As others have said, this is a first step. We would like to enable teleport where you can bring your clothing and attachments, but we will need to solve additional technical and copyright issues before that step.

    Winter @16: Solving your question about asserting that Winter Ventura is the Second Life Winter Ventura, is an active topic of discussion in the Architecture Working Group meetings, and you’re invited to participate in that.

    Blinders @18: The technology we’re developing for intergrid operation will make Second Life more resiliant and reduce single points of failure.

    Argent @28: At this time, you don’t have access to inventory. So while you can create an object in an OpenSim region, you cannot take it back to your inventory.

    Jonathan @38: Isn’t competition a wonderful thing, then?

    Nulflux @57: The short answer is no, we are not sending your password to OpenSims.

    The longer answer is described in https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Protocol, specifically sections 4.14-4.16. None of the messages passed between the agent domain (which is what you log into on our preview grid,) and the region domain (the target region) contain your password.

  62. Vincent Nacon says:

    I failed to see what’s the point of teleporting into a open sim grid…

    It’s like asking me if I want to climb down into a septic tank and make friends with rats.

  63. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @65 Vincent, the point is, if you are a developer, to get things working so that eventually, if you arent a develepor, it will be a thing that you can do seemlessly. The announcement here was public and informative in nature. The invitation is for Open sim developers to paricipate in the testing of this method which will eventually be used to allow gateways between regions owned and operated by linden labs, and other grids, owned and operated by… well, maybe, you 🙂

  64. Leila Larkham says:

    OMG! Teleport to another grid? I’d be ecstatic if I could tp without crashing in SL right after my inventory loads!!!!! Over and over again this is happening for the past two days! Whats up LL? Check out the crash logs that have been coming in if you dont believe me. Every 5-10 minutes! Ugh!!! I’d love to file a bug report but I cant stay online long enough to do that so excuse the use of this forum but I didn’t see an alternative.

  65. “LINDEN LAB can not even handle our copyrights propherly here, so they want to make it possible to thieves to bring OUR CREATIONS to other unmoderated grids WITHOUT PERMISSIONS, meaning on those grids people will have OUR creations FULL PERMISSIOn, and then WITH OUR STOLEN WARE teleport back on the real grid?”

    This is absolutely NOT what is being planned, a design for how assets will be moved has not yet been finalised, and the concept of trusted grids or trusted sims is one that’s being heavily discussed.

    Long story short: your content will only go to another grid eventually if that grid is one you as creator trust.

  66. BlueWall says:

    Haha, an amazing, fun day – flying to others regions in a (literally) puff of smoke.

    An incredible amount of thought and work have gone into this effort, so far. And much more remains, as we sit at the beginning of a new era in Internet communications. Yes, there are details to work out with many aspects of the content, IP rights and so forth, but it will be done as the technical hurdles are crossed.

    I suppose a lot of people don’t get it. A lot of people didn’t get the web either. But, that’s OK 🙂 We’re here anyway.

    BlueWall

  67. We’ll have landmarks to other grids and teleport to them just like teleporting to another sim. This should make some waves. Big surf is the best.

  68. Noisey Lane says:

    I’ve been playing around with OpenSim and OpenSim Standalone running a region on my own PC for about 5 months now.
    Although it is best described as an ‘alpha’ release and there’s a lot of work to do before OpenSim is anywhere near ready to be interoperable with SL, the potential is huge and I congratulate all those who have been involved in bringing this evolution to us.
    It has been a great place to learn to build and then bring those newly acquired skills back into SL.
    It’s lag free, I don’t get any grief on my own sim (mainly due to no one else being able to go there – yet) and with just 2 lines of code I was able to add 2 island regions to the exisiting OpenSim Standalone region so now “Noiseyland” is a 3 island region -w00t!! And it didn’t cost me a bean in tiers or setup fees!
    Makes you wonder why it’s so expensive in SL really. (Yes, I know there’s more to it than just adding a couple of lines of code but for what it’s worth, I think it’s time for LL to revisit it’s cost structure in light of the emerging competition. Now would be a good time to address this issue)
    OK, before y’all run off to get your own OpenSim Standalone region, bear in mind you’ll be Ruth for some time to come, you can’t reliably save anything to inventory and expect it to be there the next time you fire up the region and currently scripts don’t work in OpenSim Standalone – well, not for me anyways.
    Objects in world are persistent (just can’t delete them at present!) so I recycle prims I have created there as I learn how to build various structures.
    Todays blog post sees me recycling my latest sad excuse for a house into a helmet fit for a Gridnaut.
    Red Leader, out. Kthnxbye.

  69. To the raving residents who “can’t get things to work for them”: More grids where I can freely distribute scanned copied of my original artwork freely to people who are free to copy it. I’ll be famous! I support their efforts at promoting me. =D Of course I’ll sue anyone who tries to sell my work if I find out. If I dont find out, oh well, I got the original in my hands. I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious.

  70. SeanMcPherson Senior says:

    I’m in! This is what I’ve been waiting for, over the years. Another big step. I’ve been running my own grid ‘at home’ for testing and terrain work for a while now, and recently linked 9 sims into OSGrid. We’re getting there! Let’s get this all going 🙂

  71. Ener Hax says:

    this is the future and i embrace it and all the opportunity it brings. many sim owners are flipping out (i have 12) but i welcome the day that metaverses are like the web. i can shop amazon, best buy, barbie, and whatever with my same credit card, so why would i not want to bring my avatar and skills to all metaverses?

    plus LL doing this helps insure a great role for them. think of Netscape versus FireFox. the open-source one is kicking serious tail cuz the commnuity can be a part of it. same with OpenSim

    excellent work and very good luck paving this new super highway. once you have done the incredibly hard work, i’ll jump on and put the pedal to the metal 🙂

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  73. What would you say if you were taking a trip to a foreign country, and at the border you were required to strip and buy all new clothing–which you could only wear while you were there? I dare say you’d object strenuously.

    In exactly the same way, I for one will object strenuously to vendors who attempt the same thing by refusing to let me take things I have legitimately bought with me, and they can get along without my business.

  74. C’ero anche io: http://posthumanlab.wordpress.com
    interessante esperienza.

  75. Richard Trigaux says:

    of course teleporting in a 3D web is more complicated than in the 2D web:

    @69 there is no notion of trusted site in the 2D web (although google started to place warnings on sites containing viruses) but in the 3D web it is a complex issue: we must be connfident with a world, for many reasoons ranging from our asset protection to social ambiance. There will also appear a notion of trusted user. In 2D sites, some places (forums) can be protected for their fair use, it will be the same in the 3D web, where griefers will sooner or later earn a ban ticket for everywhere. Softer, there will be worlds which will allow people, but with only given types of avatars (for a roleplay, for instance)

    also, as I said in @41, there is a large number of different flux to exchange between the world and the viewer, some being unpredictable today. Let us add permissions to the list: copyright perms, access perms, avatar type perms…

    Some raised the concern that some functions can be only centralized. This is already the case in the 2D web, which relies on the ICANN and its domain name servers, a world-wide centralized system for adressing sites. It works well, and the only worry today is that this system still belongs to the USA, when it should be international. In the 3D web, we can have a similar system. Even more, if we use the 2D domain names, we don’t need to add a new system, we just use the 2D existing one, replacing the subdomain name by the world name: world.domain.tld

    Some proposed a centralized system for storing personnal infos such as avatars, inventory, etc. Certainly, if we want to go through several worlds, we need to have all our belongings stored in only one place. But do we need that ALL the avatars be stored in only ONE place??? such avatar banks could be several, and called upon request by our 3D access provider. Yes, as well as our 2D access providers identifies us on the 2D web, our 3D access provider (such as SL, or realxtend) would identify us, and also know where our asset is stored, wherever we are in the physical world.

    let us say that all this is enthralling, and I hope we shall soon see the begining of a true 3D web. It is a very good point for Linden Labs to be the promotor of all this, even if this will drive many people out of Second Life.

    Last point: having lands in SL is the expensive part. Some think that they will bo to Opensim and host islands for free. No. Because, to be able to host an island “for free”, we need a web server, and preferably a dedicated one, or our own. And I am not sure at all that this is less costy than being in SL. Not accounting that we shall have to deal with all the hassle, debugging, maintainance, updating, uploading, etc, all services which are included in the Linden Labs prestation. And, from experience, I am not sure at all that the up time of our private server will be really better than the up time of an island in SL…

  76. Tegg B says:

    Ceera Murakami Says: “@16 Winter, at this time, there is nothing whatsoever to prevent someone on some other grid from using names already in use in SL. In fact, they have no way to even know the names are already in use.”

    Well actually sombody else had already remarked previously how their prominent name had allready been taken by someone on openlife. Wouldn’t suprise me if somebodies started grabbing business owners names already, and will offer them back at a price, so get your butts over to OpenLife now, create an account so your name is reserved for you.

    20 Jahar Aabye Says:

    With regard to inventory transfer…not gonna happen. Not now, not in the future, not ever.

    Sorry, it’s the future, it will happen, got as much chance of stopping it as dissallowing other sites to link to your webpage.

    Though if you want to feel safe, just set up a homesim for yourself, get a big dog, disconnect the internet connection and you can sleep knowing your products are safe for local customer use only in your personal sim.

  77. Alexandrea Fride says:

    aah! wel sorry might duble post this , but my idea is pritty mutch same what @78 sayd and parts of @78 in a futured system

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  79. Monk Zymurgy says:

    @78 wel, opensim regions are MUCH cheaper (or should I say more affordable)..for 75US$ p/m one can rent a mighty server with good bandwidth, this server could host 4 regions quite easily..thus a saving to the host of several hundred US$ (600$ ?)..the economics is simple, for people wishing to privately organise a 3D presentation, community or service, OpenSimulator will be their best option economically. OpenSim.exe is the new apache..all cheer for the opensource initiative 😀

  80. fenoe says:

    This is a step in the right direction.
    My vision for the future is that LindenLab handles avatar assets and distrubutes it to all the grids that are connected to the main grid when its needed.
    keep up the tinkering….

  81. Cheyenne Spearmann says:

    So… I have Cheyenne Spearmann account in SL. I have already made accounts on OpenSim grid and OpenLife grid with the same name. What do you think would happen if SL Cheyenne teleported to either of these grids and OS or OL Cheyenne account was already logged on there?

  82. Monk Zymurgy says:

    Oh yeah..OpenSim.exe means I can allow my young children to use this fabulous ‘Virtual LEGO’. The LLGrids age restrictions have allowed LL to gain a name for being a place for sex activity. So in turn OSGrid will have to be careful, but they do not intend to get a name for its availability of sex activity. Sure the www has lots of material that is unsuitable for minors, and it becomes the responsibility of families to be aware of what the younger members are viewing and doing. LL’s Grid is a product in its own right, and being an 18+ only product its pretty obvious there is adult content here, but this limit makes it impossible for -15’s to use the software…Vive l’Opensim.exe :DD..the age thing is gonna be another huge limiting factor for the OGP guys..I think its more the time to develop OpenSimGrid–>OpenSimGrid interoperability…but that is now WAY off-topic..

  83. Monk Zymurgy says:

    Oh and thank you LL for developing such a wonderful client..without it, OpenSimulator would be a little useless. I hope the visions of Phil are still coming into fruition. I think LL is way cool btw, way cool. Zero is so grounded and Whump et al are really working with the community to achieve an interop system that will be accepted by the SL masses. Good Luck to that adventure, because 3D metaverse traffic will be SecondLife centric for quite some more time.

    ———-END of Blog post blogging——-

  84. Andrea Sands says:

    Awww. come on that was a mockup footage. filmed in some dark cellar…
    They probaly have never been there

  85. @71 Noisey

    I think you must be using quite an old version of OpenSim. Inventory has been working reasonably well (though there are probably still a few bugs) for some time now. Many script functions are working fine (and indeed we recently got a new code from Mikem which cleans up our LSL parsing) and there should be no problem creating and deleting objects from the simulator.

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  87. Curtis Dresler says:

    Argent, your question has been answered by several others, but right now it is conjecture. My personal opinion, wandering around several open grids as well as SL and my home server regions is that full inventory will be enabled only for a ‘resident’ avatar, which is why I think it is important for a transaction system be created that will sell an item from VendorName.OpenSimX to CurtisDresler.SecondLife or allow me, when they standardize on a currency or currencies, to transfer L$ from CurtisDresler.SecondLife to MyName.OpenSimY.

    Again, I am also betting on a buffer solution that finesses the perm issue for visitors, with items purchased going back to the home grid of your current avatar. So if you buy a hat, by my conjecture, 1) is stupid, because hats tend to be a pain, and 2) it will transfer back to your home grid Second Life where you can open and save to inventory and then wear when you go out again in your buffered inventory that accompanies you. I conjecture/envision that you could ‘change’ while in another grid, which would essentially change the items in the buffer, but have no permanent impact on the asset server of the grid being visited.

    FWIW, inventory seems to be holding fine, albeit very limited, on all the open sims that I have inventory. I haven’t lost anything or had anything go odd. I have had problems with things like handling objects in some open sims – the land readings aren’t that consistent re: objects, and, as I mentioned, I haven’t found a functioning search in any open sim and the Open Sim web site does not list redirects for search functions, which means that anyone using the SL client will be searching on SL, regardless of what sim they are visiting.

  88. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Whump Linden@64: can you clarify “you don’t have access to inventory”. Do you mean “you don’t have access to SL inventory” or do you mean “your ‘Secondlife Name.secondlife’ avatar in OpenSim does not have any inventory in OpenSim”? I know you don’t have access to SL inventory, I’m asking about persistent *OpenSim* inventory.

  89. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Curtis@91: For ‘game grids’ and the like, I think that keeping your “external” inventory purely in the grid that you’re rezzed in is the best place to start. Having inventory crossing grids (even from more permissive ones to less permissive ones) opens up way too many issues for now.

  90. Cybin Monde says:

    I just wanted to pop in and say a HUGE Congratulations!!

    This has been a long time coming and this small (but extremely significant) step is leading us towards a future much of us have envisioned over the past few years.

    Now SL starts metamorphisizing(real word?) from Betaverse (as i have long referred to it as being) into the jumping off point for the Metaverse.

    Until after now..

  91. mcp Moriarty says:

    Another case of “the cart before the horse”. Things like this should be kept under wraps until COMPLETELY usable in my opinion. My 2 cents.

    Reminds me of dazzle. ugh..

  92. GC Continental says:

    New, distributed asset server with built-in redundancy and perm checks is required. Then it will be possible for the creator of an item to allow permissions of that created item to propagate through the inter-grids. For example: the portion of the asset database on the sim in which the item was created becomes “authoritative” for that item, like a DNS record. Then, when the item is rezzed in another sim, that authoritative record is then checked, and duplicate records are checked for consistency of data by UUID… this guaranteeing a 2 out of 3 match with the authoritative record being the proper state of that item 🙂 You can hack one server, you cannot hack 80 – you would have to break ALL of the database records for that item to get your free copy.

    Charge for connection to the distributed database, charge for connection to the Lindex. Get out of the hosting business, become a currency exchange that is exempt from VAT and further deveelop software, and you have a totally new, viable, nearly liability-free business model. In fact, force interoperability and redundancy checks to maintain permission to connect to the inter-grid, and now you CAN have a moving inventory WITHOUT the possibility of IP theft.

    Can be done.

  93. GC Continental says:

    Oh yeah – said database does not reside on any one server. It lives on ALL servers.

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  95. Whichway Janus says:

    Any idea how long it takes for the e-mil list subscription request to be processed?

  96. Whump Linden says:

    Whichway @99: We’ve received a large number of requests to join the beta. We have a small team of engineers working on the beta. In order to keep from swamping them and the volunteers from the OpenSim community, I’m adding people gradually to the program. Thank you for your patience.

  97. Shortdog says:

    To give an answer to Ceera Murakami.
    The only thing stopping the use of your SL Av name is you registering on another grid.
    And, you would be surprised by the number of dual or multiple grid residents I know.

    Personally, the sooner this goes mainstream the better.

  98. “Another case of “the cart before the horse”. Things like this should be kept under wraps until COMPLETELY usable in my opinion. My 2 cents.”

    Except it wouldn’t be possible to keep this under wraps until totally usable as testing and developing requires outside participation.

  99. Sierra says:

    @92
    So people can shout and rant about how “Linden Lab’s does nothing” or “Linden Labs doesn’t respond”?
    Also this is being doing with outside developers too, it has to be open.
    What could possibly be the problem with *not* being kept in the dark?
    Because you aren’t patient enough to wait for it to be released now that you know what is going on?

  100. Dmitriy says:

    Strictly speaking it’s not a good solution.
    What if I modded _my_ sim instance to always take into account that _my_ asset servers says first?
    Also, as far as I understood current architecture I can just move items to my sim and perform save and rollback several times to get copies of no-copy items. THIS is forbidden by Linden TOS(and currently they are rolling back) but what with opensim…let’s say my server will be crashing….

  101. Yavapai Villota says:

    Aha.The original avatar didn’t move. Only the name and login-data moved. At arrival a new ava is rezzing. Looking, smelling and behaving as: Ruth. Hmmm. This is like sending the stamp via postal-service, but without envelope, paper and ink and even no writing.

  102. @105 Yavapai Villota, do you think that this is substantially different than what happens in SL now when an avatar crosses a region boundary? It’s all just pixels on the screen. Nothing ever “moves” except which simulator is sending the data that your viewer draws.

  103. One question to the “this is just moving a name” people here:

    How do you think that name is authenticated as being a legit name? And how do you think we can move more than just the name without starting with the basics?

  104. Cuda says:

    I think its great that there may be a universal code or jump from grid to grid in the future.
    @ everyone yelling about content theft, to other grids. Might want to to spend your time worrying about content theft happening with-in SL.
    Just out of courousity I did some digging and there are copy bots and copy scripts all in sl. So blaming the inventory back up programs is kind of a moot point. If it can be copied or stolen a thief is a thief and they will find a way.
    This is just a persona opion but if you sell an item full perms what difference does it make, your opening the door for it to be moved transfered and resold. But I would take a guess that 95% of sl users respect the TOC and if they transfer an item its because they like the item.
    You can look at it another way. If you go buy a car then find out you dont like it. How pissed would you be if you couldnt sell it. You either had to deleate it or keep it forever. Or clothing, shoes etc. Item resale keeps the circle going, yet the maker of the item in RL doesnt get a dime from the reseller so what makes it any diferent here in the digital world.

    Before everyone starts yelling to make my final point I AM STRONGLY AGAINST THEFT OF ANYKIND.

    @ the people worried about someone using someone elses name. Welcome to the real world. Grab a phone book and see how many john smiths are listed in a given town, or state, or country.

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  107. Ursa Henley says:

    ooh wow just another realm to lose control of, mass alt production and greifing be welcome huh? Its not even worth trying to do anything that Linden labs becomes involved in they are not interested in anything but bottom line dollars. creativity is all but gone, those of us that wanted to build and create have actively been run off by greifers and mass alt users that LL can not even control so reporting such activity is useless they just create a new one and start up where they left off. I actually thought opensim might be an answer to that but now that its involved with LL im no longer interested in participating with it so be it, all a waste of time anymore greed and stupidity prevail once again.

  108. Richard Trigaux says:

    @105-109 about copyrighted inventory moving from a world to another. If this inventory is also in a centralized avatar bank, problem don’t arise. Anyway copyright theft is alway possible with decoding the files in the cache. So this coding must be made variable or random, and seriously, as of a costy thing we don’t want to be stolen. And don’t made the decoder “open source”…

    All this management must be done at a centralized world level. In the 2D internet, domain names are world managed by the ICANN, and languages/protocols by the W3C. In the 3D web, there is much more to manage at a world level, such as avatar banks (where our personnal data/belongings are stored) and especially identity check.

  109. Richard Trigaux says:

    @112: I several years ago realized that griefing, or at least out of place users*, would be the limitative problem of expression in a 3D world open to any visitor. I still not found yet a perfect solution for this, but there ARE solutions. In SL some large enough groups developpend guardians groups, with alway somebody available round the clock. Those guardian work by non-violently discussing with the griefers (this works half of the time) and when it don’t work, booting them out of the sims. There is also a policy of not commenting griefer’s deeds, so that they don’t have the publicity they crave for. This proved effective to greatly reduce griefing incidents to a bearable level, in some large SL lands.

    For this to work in a multi-world system needs to have a multi-world IM system (guardians respond to IM calls).

    * out of place users are for instance users who appear as robots in a middle age sim, or who chat of their office work in a romantic sim. This is not griefing, but is anyway considered a problem in many places.

  110. @Ursa Henley:
    “I actually thought opensim might be an answer to that but now that its involved with LL im no longer interested in participating with it so be it, all a waste of time anymore greed and stupidity prevail once again.”

    Tell me, what’s changed in opensim itself other than it’s now getting OPTIONAL support for interop? LL aren’t taking control over every random 3rd-party grid out there.

    @Richard:
    “@105-109 about copyrighted inventory moving from a world to another. If this inventory is also in a centralized avatar bank, problem don’t arise. Anyway copyright theft is alway possible with decoding the files in the cache. So this coding must be made variable or random, and seriously, as of a costy thing we don’t want to be stolen. And don’t made the decoder “open source”…”

    Or just don’t make your encryption keys open to the public – if your encryption is so weak that it depends on the algorithm being hidden, you should fix it.

    “All this management must be done at a centralized world level. In the 2D internet, domain names are world managed by the ICANN, and languages/protocols by the W3C. In the 3D web, there is much more to manage at a world level, such as avatar banks (where our personnal data/belongings are stored) and especially identity check.”

    Domain names are managed in a distributed fashion, ICANN handle the root zone and delegate to TLDs, then TLDs delegate again. The plan for OGP is to split into region domains and agent domains:
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Structural_Design_Overview

    As to the problem of griefers:
    They’re trolls, in 3D – anyone who’s run an online community has tricks for dealing with them

  111. Nibb Tardis says:

    The whole concept if interconnecting grids is broken on so many levels, it’s funny. Yet LL is stubbornly working on the feature, even though it will probably lead to a whole mutation in virtual worlds where the economy goes out the window and LL goes the way Netscape did when they open sourced their software.

    – The idea of transferring IP rights to untrusted grids located in China or Russia is wrong.
    – The business model of making independent grids pay to access LL’s asset servers won’t work because mainstream independant grids will have no interest in the L$ economy and user created content.
    – Opening SL to open grids will destroy the mainland and private estate land markets in SL, frustating thousands of users and cutting the biggest part of LL’s revenue, which is land tier.

    It really seems like cutting the branch they are sitting on.

    There are so many issues, like inventory transfer, to which nobody has a satisfactory answer. Also, what happens if I create an account named Whump Linden on all the open grids ? Will that block access ? It seems to open new possibilities to griefers.

  112. mcp Moriarty says:

    @102

    You don’t need outside participation to solve the inventory not being teleported or ending up Ruth’d. This could of been left in dev in the quiet until it was ALL sorted out.

  113. Richard Trigaux says:

    Legal issues of a World Wide 3D web.

    In SL, we have the TOS. This is because we, ultimately, are using a LL service, of which it is legally responsible. But what for a privately hosted sim? there can be any set of rules, or no rules at all. so all was banned in SL will reappear elsewhere, in an uncontrollable way: casinos, paedophilia, griefing, etc

    so some went saying that, in SL, we must obey the US law, because SL is hosted in the USA. At first, I am not a US citizen, I don’t feel being a US citizen, and I don’t see why I should. Second, open grids will be hosted in any other country. And it will not be written on it, in which country.

    So which rules to obey? which laws? This makes that a World Wide 3D Web will have to be considered an international territory, like Antartica or the ISS. And there should be suited laws for the Word Wide 3D Web. Under the control of the UN…

    an extreme case of griefing would be a RL country at war, banning the citizens of another country. So the identity check system has to be international, and respectful of privacy, so that such abuses could not take place. When somebody enters our sim, we need to know if he is a griefer or not. But knowing his RL data such as country, gender, religion, etc would lead to abuses and thus be kept private.

    @115 Gareth thanks for your insights. Centralized don’t necessary means that everything is in the same building. For instance an identity check system may have numerous offices in the world, but a checking system to avoid double booking the same identity, or keep a ban list of known griefers so that they cannot just take another identity in another office. this arises human rights concerns, one more reason to have this under the control of the UN.

    Griefers are not the only possible nuisance. Imagine advertising bots roaming around by thousands, TPing at random… The only solution for this is a centralized identity check system. On the 2D web, anonimity allows for many unfair things, like spam. If we have the same leniency in the 3D web, it sill result in the same mess.

    Also it may appear 3D hosting companies which service includes a guardian system.

  114. Argent Stonecutter says:

    There’s no inventory being transferred to or being made available to the OpenSim grids, so there’s no inventory issues yet.

    There’s two ways this can go now:

    1. Central inventory with asset servers doing checks for which grid an object is allowed to go to, with the default being “no grid transfers”. Note that many assets can be used without being transferred from one grid to another, since they are never transferred to the sim… just the UUID is passed from the sim to the client… whether these uses should be treated as “grid transfers” or not is more of a social or legal matter than a technical one.

    2. Separate inventory on each grid. This has the advantage that there’s no “cross grid transfers” at all, and grids with a strong theme (such as games) can better control the assets available on their grid. People using tools to transfer assets from one grid to another are explicitly bypassing SL’s access controls, and can be dealt with on that basis. Of course, this won’t provide the same kind of continuous grid…

  115. “so some went saying that, in SL, we must obey the US law, because SL is hosted in the USA. At first, I am not a US citizen, I don’t feel being a US citizen, and I don’t see why I should”

    Because you are connecting to servers which are hosted within the US by an american company. If you don’t like the laws which cover their use, don’t connect to them.

    “So which rules to obey? which laws? This makes that a World Wide 3D Web will have to be considered an international territory, like Antartica or the ISS. And there should be suited laws for the Word Wide 3D Web. Under the control of the UN…”

    No, it’s way way simpler:
    Follow the laws of your place of residence and the TOS of the service you’re connecting to.

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  119. Richard Trigaux says:

    @120 gareth:

    “No, it’s way way simpler:
    Follow the laws of your place of residence and the TOS of the service you’re connecting to.”

    Nope, this is way more complicated. If during a game and exploration I TP many times, if I must read the TOS and inquire whhich country the world is hosted, each TP will require one hour. Not accounti_ng that these infos are not alway available…

    having an uniform law for the metaverse is way simpler, and it is what happened with the “netiquette” of the 2D web. The only trouble which occured with 2D forums were when the netiquette was not respected.

    Having a common basic law will much simplify things, technically. There are some things which are common to everybody: respecting copyright, respecting people and human rights, etc.

    The problems, it seems, is rather political: some will want to keep control on their citizens while they are out of the country. Does France ask french people obey french law when they are in the US? No. What is more relevant to say, at very first, is that SL (and the future metaverse) are like space: BOUNDARIES ARE INVISIBLE. It is a marvellous thing, people of all around the world merging and communicating together… WHAT A MARVELLOUS OPPORTUNITY to get at last rid off this infamous millenia old heritage of wars, hates, confllicts and discrimination!

    Of course some universes will need special rules, that we are acknowledged to when entering in. For instance a middle age roleplay world will not allow for modern artifacts. Or a fundamentalist country will not allow women…

    This is why a common rule is the best, together with a list of allowed exceptions. For instance not attacking people is a necessary common rule, and it is also acceptable to make an exception to this rule in a roleplay world.

  120. Curtis Dresler says:

    @123 Richard Trigaux “Nope, this is way more complicated. If during a game and exploration I TP many times, if I must read the TOS and inquire whhich country the world is hosted, each TP will require one hour. Not accounti_ng that these infos are not alway available…”

    Well, no. Most people do not read the TOS if they exist on web sites and won’t bother with the TOS in the Metaverse, nor should they particularly worry. As long as your intended purpose is relatively benign or non-intense, you are unlikely to violate a TOS. You would only need to check out the TOS of a grid that you intend to be more intensely involved.

    As for commerce, sites probably will have to have splash screens at the point of transaction, based on the grid identifier for the visiting avatar. I do think you may have to have grids declare to a particular country and commercial transactions check that registry.

    I do think it is a bit naive to think that there would be a defining law for the Metaverse that carried any weight, simply because it simultaneously touches on too many issues, from ‘community standards’ to freedom of speech to commercial transactions to be something easily resolved, yet it is also simply not that important at a governance level to be dealt with. So at best you will have an unofficial understanding of acceptable and unacceptable behavior (or maybe even one that is signed on as a universal part of general TOS) that will have (in the first case) less impact than a TOS.

    OTOH, if you read the various TOS on the web, many of them gravitate toward a standard or standards that has (have) been defined by case law and the larger, better funded corporations. Copycatting. You can expect the same to happen with 3D – there is no reason to reinvent the wheel, especially if some court case says this is the one that is acceptable and this one is not. Suddenly 90 % of the TOS will incorporate the language of the former and excise the latter.

  121. Musha says:

    I am into content creator (partily) and seriously I do it for fun, I am not worried about content theft or thieves, they want it there gona take it. I could never forsee me taking any legal action over such petty things. Seriously they have stolen nothing from me in RL, so it’s not an issue. some of you need to look at what your saying, your getting mad over ip issues and such, but why? heck lets get all of this working and then complait, not complain before hand, you all jumped the gun about content stuff.

  122. Richard Trigaux says:

    @126: yes they ACTUALLY stole something of you in RL: parts of your life time. You worked for people who may just pass besides you without saying hello, and who will never help you if you are poor or sick.

    To allow for anybody to use your work was your choice, this is not a theft in this case, as people were allowed to use it.

    But a TOS or a law cannot be made for only one person or one situation: others want their work protected. Business people want their income protected. Artists want their creations protected against re-use in a deprecating context.

    Your freedom, our freedom. We know too well that our freedom in RL relies on complex and often cumbersome laws, courts and police forces, unpleasant to deal with. But without them we would live like serves in the Middle Age, under constant fear of attack, robery and rape, bare feet into the filth.

    I myself much dislike the idea of laws in the metaverse, having to comply to rules, being traced and identity checked… But I am CONSTRAINED BY ABUSERS to support such laws.

    If some don’t want such laws in the metaverse, the only way to do so is to not abuse, not steal, etc. if you do so, there will be no use of laws then, and the metaverse will be a paradise.

    Abusers in the metaverse are the best and only proponents of laws in the metaverse. Each abuse is a vote for such laws.

    Abusers, don’t abuse, and there will be no laws. This is as simple as that. Are you able to take a decision and behave accordingly? Can you pass the word to other abusers, so that the abuse rate drops to zero in two days and remain forever at zero?

  123. Curtis Dresler says:

    And there can be no ‘laws’ that apply specifically to the Metaverse. I’ll repeat – to the authorities of those that have jurisdiction over parts of the Metaverse, the entire Metaverse all rolled into one is small potatoes and the enormity of establishing an international set of laws that would cut across freedom of speech, property issues, taxes, subsidies, etc. so great, that no one will touch it. Instead, they will sit back and let current law, case law and some incremental work for issues that rise like Whack-a-Mole moles to get hammered.

    And that’s fine with me, because if the U.N. or any other body started swinging a hammer, a whole lot of rabbits would get hammered with the moles…

  124. Richard Trigaux says:

    @128 Curtis: oh yes, it will require effort… WORK… discipline… keeping with the decisions we made…

    and worse of all, we shall have to THINK… argh

  125. Curtis Dresler says:

    Richard, part of my life is working with lawyers to finalize contracts for some of the work I do. IN a very limited way, I have been there and done that on getting several parties to come to agreement in a very limited scope.

    Richard, you just don’t get it. My last contract with Washington DC involved four parties and four sets of lawyers, took the best part of a year and was specific to one system. Now just how long do you think it would take for, oh, just Canada, Great Britain, Ireland, Australia and the U.S. – chosen because they sort of share almost the same language, at least at times – to come up with a set of legal standards that included the limits of free speech, application of community standards, site and nexus of application of community standards, commercial regulations and taxation in all its forms, standards for storing and transmitting privacy information, standards for storing and transmitting commercial transaction information, to cite a few items, all specific to the 3D Metaverse, with clear standards on the process of case resolution? And since we can pretty much presume the average commercial attorney spends little to no time on SL or any other metaverse, why do you think that this process will result in a better set of rules than those thrashed out, case by case, TOS by TOS, by parties with specific interests in the metaverse?

    How about we let the system settle on a somewhat standard TOS using best standards, which many websites have done in the 2D world, with modifications for their country, product and site, and let case law hammer out the commercial issues, so we can all get it done in my lifetime…

  126. This beta version is really cool. i cant wait for the fully functional version.

    Thanks

    jay
    http://www.storesopenonchristmasday.com

  127. Richard Trigaux says:

    @130 Curtis: seems that your very post contains the cause of the problems you see: each looks to his OWN INTEREST. Of course the expectable result is years of work to solve a simple 2+2 problem.

    Anybody looking at the COMMON INTEREST would write an acceptable universable TOS in a couple of day:
    -no agression, moral or physical
    -tolerance: racial, sexual, religious, etc
    -privacy
    -respecting work and copyright
    -depending on the use, allowing/disabling sex, fights, business, money, etc
    You see, it is nearby done.
    and after all, Linden Lab’s TOS is already reasonably close to perfect.

    Of course some more complicated cases may arise, like the limit to free speech, or other use specific matters. But again there are common laws which are understood in any democratic country. And often people forget to simply look at the SPIRIT of the text, instead of playing on words to tickle the limits

    So if “problems” appear in writing a common TOS, it is very probably that somebody is blocking something, from personnal interest or ideology. Just fire this one out of the team.

    and, remember, most people come into virtual worlds for dream/visualisation/expression purposes. And lawyers able of spending one year locked in offices away from sun and grass, rehearsing absconses texts, are not really useful for this 😀 😀
    But yes your skills will be useful for people who will come in virtual worlds to fulfil their personnal interests in the expense of other’s.

  128. Curtis Dresler says:

    Enough Richard. I’d need proof you are over 15 to continue this conversation. Reality bites, but it is reality.

  129. Richard Trigaux says:

    Don’t worry, even if we succeed to write a clear and good law for virtual worlds, there will be plenty of people trying to get round of it, and play with the words instead of keeping with the spirit of the text. So there will be still a need for lawyers.

    Just that, if you have for instance do an affidavid in an elven roleplay sim, you will have to dress like an Elf. There already is some jurisprudence about this. 😀 😀 😀

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  135. DeepSurfer Koenig says:

    yess… i working with OpenSim and it is coooool
    (standalone Grid with 9 Sims on an root-server with linux)

    But i see in the Torley Video the SL-Client function CTRL-SHIFT-ALT L for Teleport, but this function is not in the current Client enabled.

    how can i find this function to activate in the SL-Client ??

    friendly greetings from germany and see you Ingame in SL
    DeepSurfer Koenig

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