Update on Mainland supply

Since our previous post and our suspending of whole region auctions, we have been watching the market closely. For the last 3 weeks the previous decline in average Mainland price per meter has halted and the price is now holding steady at an average of L$7.25 (averaged over the last seven days).

After review, we have decided to remain as we have been, so we are not going to add any more Mainland whole regions for the next two weeks. We will review again on the 1st August and blog then to let you know if there is a change.

Finally, my thanks to those of you that have provided feedback to me via email, notecards and during my office hours. Though I may not reply to every single one, it does all get read and it’s great to get such good input. So thanks for that.

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149 Responses to Update on Mainland supply

  1. Yanik Lytton says:

    Yay!

  2. ac14 Hutson says:

    where are they currently adding regions anyway? what part of the map.

  3. Argent Stonecutter says:

    The newest new continent in the far northeast.

  4. How about checking some useful numbers, like users logged in vs sqm for sale, or do a survey about estate land sales?

    If you stopped issuing mainland for a year, the market wouldn’t stablize. We need more recycled sim due to VAT and poor business plan bailouts like we need a hole in the head.

    Its supply and demand Jack, not real life real estate, and its an impulse item to boot.

  5. Ellen Spark says:

    I am very dissapointed, that it appears you only use Mainland price per sq meter of land for basis of how much land you relase. Private Island owners have been devastated by the new lower Private Island priceing, which resulted in a flood of land in sl. Many private island owners are loosing, selling or giveing up on their sims. Much unsold land is being supported by sim owners. It has taken a terrible toll on us. It would be much better to go back to the priceing we had and stabilize the market. Most private Island owners are now selling their land at 1 to 2 L$ per sq meter, it has lost all value, and results in residents not holding their land to resell it when they want to leave because the tier they pay would cost them more than they would get by selling their parcel, transfer from resident to resident has diminished, transfer from resident to sim owner has increased, causeing even more burden on the sim owners. We are getting hurt badly, please help us, restore the prior priceing. Thank You 🙂

  6. Eric says:

    I think lowering estate tier to $195 or lower for all islands except for
    open spaces would be good for all sides in the long run. As far as
    mainland goes, I’d like to see the average around 12L per meter before new mainland regions are auctioned and even then, not auction so many at a time so that there is less fluctuation. At this point there is stil way to much mainland for sale. Just because a region sells at auction does not mean it is instantly being used by an end user.

  7. xchandler bing says:

    Dear Lindens:

    I have owned various plots of land over the last year, and I can tell you that I am very disappointed in you, LL. You have a very strange way of monitoring the land issue. You should look at the amount of land per resident online in view of the amount of land for sale. This will show you that your current analysis of price per sq meter is flawed. Also, you should look at total sq meter of land sold per period of time, and the amount of land available for sale as well as the price for sale.

    As I see it, the land for sale is at the rock bottom price, but nobody is buying. Why is that? Because of your policy to flood the land and keep adding land so you can extract the tier. Just admit it, you love to add more regions because it puts someone on the hook for that absurd tier price.

    Drop the tier price, that may help. And drop it a lot.

  8. Elvis Indigo says:

    It seems that the “land for sale” search function has changed. Either I’m not so bright (entirely possible) or there’s no easy way to search for a specific size parcel at a specific price anymore.

    If buyers can’t find parcels in their price range, it’s no wonder they aren’t buying.

  9. Driftwood Miles says:

    Heaves a sigh of relief. Thanks Jack. Two weeks reprieve!!
    LONG may it continue…because lets face it, it needs to. The calls for lowered tiers are indicative of how tight it is for Estate owners. Lot’s and Lots of yellow…..it’s hard to miss.

    Thanks For Listening!!

  10. Seana Flores says:

    Dear Lindens

    Thank you very much for flood the grid with whole lots of mainlands. You’ve destroyed the market prices and now the mainland is devaluating per day.

    I paid 4995 Lindens for my 512 meters maindland some weeks ago, and now the value is less than 2200 Lindens.

    Is it good?

  11. Lucille Babenco says:

    Hello Lindens.
    I’m the owner of a private island that I bought in January for sell & rent. Now with your mainlands whole region auctions, you’re going to ruin us.

    We paid 1942 USD (VAT included) and we can’t sell nothing. The people prefer to buy a cheap mainland than an island parcel. You should think better the things before doing, and take more care with the private island owners because we pay you a lot of USD and everydays we have less…

  12. Pingback: No Added Mainland For 2 more weeks - SLUniverse Forums

  13. Darien Caldwell says:

    @8,
    Actually it appears to me that land search is completely broken now. No matter what I put in, I only get a few mainland plots at 1L and some acutions. This sounds like a bug.

  14. Nany Kayo says:

    The price of land really hasnt changed that much if tier hasnt changed. Tier is the majority of the cost of virtual estate. Much of the new private and mainland will languish just like the land the new owners are abandoning. The way to profit in this market will be to add value, content, to your land to make it worth more than the endless plains of spinning for sale signs.

    Land in SL is prims. What Linden Labs has accomplished by adding land is an increase in the stuff of creative content. I think it is a smart move, if its controlled and monitored. More available prims is always ok with me. : )

  15. Harmony Deschanel says:

    I agree with several here saying that tier needs to be lowered. Many people I talk to about buying and owning land say they can’t afford to pay the tier per month (I’m contacted by friends and references from friends, since I deal in real estate). Normally the first or second question I get asked is “How much is this going to cost per month.” It’s not very often someone says they can’t afford to purchase it.

  16. James says:

    I’m sorry, but I must have missed something here. Did I miss the part in the ToS where LL is supposed to guarantee me a rate of return on my “investments’? If so, maybe I should move my retirement account and purchase islands. If you can’t stand to take losses, then get out of the investment game.

  17. Harmony Deschanel says:

    @13 and @8 it works fine if you use the drop down at the top left corner to look at only Mainland, or only Auctions, or only Estate land. If you don’t use that drop down, it’s a jumbled mess.

    Then use the size / L$ fields to further refine the search.

    Then you can use the size column to sort by size of plot by clicking on the column header.

  18. Elvis Indigo says:

    @17 Yes, that’s how it used to work. Alas, no longer. 🙂

  19. Soap Clawtooth says:

    James. It’s not about the fact that land is being lost, it’s more because of WHY land is being lost. Through complete ineptitude and disregard.

  20. Kasen Kazan says:

    7.25 L per sq meter? go to Relleno, and the sims around it, the avg. price of a 512 parcel is 2800L’s. When you come up with the numbers, do you avg. in the 512 parcels that list for 150,000L’s someone thinks they can get?
    By the way, if you drop the tier, I might buy an island! 😉

  21. BeeBee Brouwer says:

    If every comment is read, then calls for stability should be nothing new.

    If you expect us to continue to pour money into SL then we need some assurance that the grid will be stable, asset servers will safeguard our inventories, and social and economic conditions will remain stable.

    Gutting the market and sticking the customer with the bill (that’s us, the land and sim owners who paid yesterdays prices and tier) with the bill is the sort of service generally reserved for mares who are expected to return in foal.

    Stability, it’s NOT just for hardware anymore.

  22. Argent Stonecutter says:

    When they started renting land on private islands it was 8never8 paid for up front, it was always purely a rental cost. Since there was no real equity in island land, except for the island owner, this was the counterbalancing advantage: you paid a bit more tier, but you avoided the commitment. When Linden Labs added the virtual sale mechanism people started “buying” island land, and some people I know bought island land without being aware of the difference, discovered that the island owner wasn’t letting them subdivide or even resell it, and ended up losing their “investment”. Other times island owners move on, sell their islands. If you’re renting, that’s expected. If you “bought” the land, though, you’re going to see that as unreasonable.

    Rental on islands works, and people are more than willing to have that kind of relationship with estate owners, but “buying parcels” on islands never made much sense to me. the one exception is when the purchase price of the land is how you pay the first month’s rent.

  23. Duke McDonnagh says:

    Frankly I don’t care what the price of mainland is I would not buy it and i certainly would not sell it to anyone. What good is it if you can’t move when you get there and everything is gray.

    Anyone with any intellect at all is buying land on private sims because the price is excessively low. The market is flooded with land and its not getting any better.

    I sold half my sims at a 60% loss as i refuse to go any lower in price and work for nothing.

    With that said I am fully supportive of second life and always will be.

    We adapt and move on.

    I agree a Tier decrease is warranted.

    Duke

  24. Bluestripe says:

    Well,, I have been smoldering ever since they dropped the value of my sim island by $650usd, and never even offered free tier as a show of care or respect for the people who helped make SL what it is. I have been thinking about this alot lately and I have decided to get rid of my sim, cancel my paid account and live in free accounts , just like the never ending supply of griefers.

    I have spent well over $5000 Real USD in here.. Lindens seem to have no respect for the people like us who open up their wallet in big ways. I have complained for the last time… This place is what it is… from now on, listen to my silence. =^.^=

  25. Wayfinder Wishbringer says:

    Eric, I totally agree with you. $195 a month is far more than enough for sim fees. In fact, to take the matter even further, if Linden Lab wanted to make some friends they could cut full island prices to $500 setup and $95 a month tier and still make a considerable profit. I mean, they’re stacking 4 sims to a single server box. At $95 that would be almost $400 a month server fees… which is approximately four times as much as professional server systems charge. $95 multiplied by some 20,000 sims is $1.9 million a month. I seriously doubt it costs anywhere near that to run Linden Lab.

    At $95 a month, they could completely eliminated “Open Space Sims” and their stacked-16-to-a-box superlag. With all the new VR systems starting to pop up, time for Linden Lab to run smarter. If they don’t, the 7% market share they’ve lost during the last 7 months and the loss of customer goodwill can only continue to get worse. They’ve been able to get by on “we’re the only ones” so long but that day is fast coming to a close. If they don’t get smarter real fast, IMO Linden Lab is going to find itself facing some serious trouble from an ever-increasing competitive market.

    I covered such in a blog post called the Virtual Food Fight. Anyone want the link posted, just lemme know. Only reason I’m mentioning this is because like the rest of us here, I don’t want to see Second Life turn into a ghost town. But that seems to be the direction it’s heading. I mean, 50,000 concurrent users, 20,000 sims? What is that, less than 3 people per sim? It’s already a ghost town.

  26. NickCA Dittmann says:

    In case no one has told the folks at Linden Labs, the economy is in the toilet and anything discretionary is being postponed or canceled.

    The high monthly tier virtually guarantees that this problem is going to continue as the real economy continues to deteriorate.

    Others out there in the real world, where you business actually exists, can see this, and are slashing their prices in an effort to maintain revenue. You don’t seem to get it.

    At this particular junction, it is slash OR burn. Think on it. It’s not that hard to figure out.

  27. Tammy Nowotny says:

    Linden lab’s first responsibility is to its shareholders. Its second is to us, the residents in general. Keeping land prices high for the sake of current land owners is somewhere pretty far below #2 on the list.

    I happen to be a mainland land speculator myself, and I can make money (not as much as I would like) when land is plentiful and cheap as well as when it is scarce and expensive. In fact when it’s cheap people can afford to buy more, which is good… especially when it enables buyers to build little empires (and if I happen to own a piece which they need to increase the size of their empire, so much the better for me.)

    I have noticed that in general, new mainland is worth more than old mainland… because many of the old sims are messed up. Adfarms are the biggest blotch on the landscape, but another blotch are the old abandoned parcels (especially First Land parcels) with plywood prim litter, crashed vehicles, etc. on them. Even if you can’t seize those parcels and re-auction them just yet, you guys might want to consider returning some of the prim litter. if it belongs to someone who doesn’t own the land, isn’t an alt or fellow group member of the owner, and who hasn’t been inworld in a long time, it’s harmless enough to return the prim litter, I should think.

  28. WhatsTheDealy Oh says:

    # 25 Wayfinder Wishbringer
    You Hit the nail on the head. And i can bet you that LL does not pay the same tier for their land they flooded the market with . Fair trade?
    Hardly Fair.

  29. Constance Zapedzki says:

    Nick – what makes you think San Fran is in the “real world”? Especially with their RL real estate prices – SL real estate is a bargain by comparison! (But I know what you’re saying.)

  30. Constance Zapedzki says:

    P. S. Buy low, sell high. Just FYI. And maybe think of tiers as – um, taxes and utilities?

  31. Coventina Dalgleish says:

    Just look what has happened to some of the large estate owners lately to see which way land ownership going. 20,000 sims 50 to 60,000 concurrency the numbers speak for themselves. I suggest instead of building more land you take each continent and make a huge lake in the center of them. Then you can create open space sims for scenery and a much nicer living condition. This would also reduce the amount of yellow plaguing the map. Obviously your water front property’s would be the most desired. The ratio of land to users needs to be between 4 and 5 to 1, or higher. You have glutted the market with worthless land, destroyed the value of islands purchased to date except for the very old ones that were sold at $950 or so and yet the tier remains the same. If you have not noticed people will not buy land thus the yellow. I wonder what would happen if you reduced the tier 50%, would it increase land sales or would it result in a more than 2 to 1 increase thus generating more revenue. Lets face it tier on vacant land is $0 and you have a lot of that just sitting around. Several years ago land was in demand and there was a lot less available. You might want to go back and look at the figures as that is when your system was working. You are on a path laid out reflecting forecasts that you would have a much higher concurrency at this time what happened did someone forget to tell the land makers that customers have been flat for a year. At one time I owned a very nice large plot with a beautiful view of the ocean until one day a new sim popped up and moved the ocean 2 sims away. That was the last time I had any interest in the mainland and the severe lack of customer information and planning.

  32. Knowl Paine says:

    Hey Jack,

    Thanks for taking some action to help stabilize the land market.

    I am also puzzled as to how LL calculates the average price per meter but maybe some things are none of my business. Maybe you are using Calgon, the ancient Chinese secret or you guys are just bad at math.

    I am happy with my land and have no intentions to sell. Yes, I would like to have the peace of mind to know that I could move if I wanted to without losing any money but for a long time moving was usually an upgrade to better land at a better price.

    I have purchased and sold many parcel. The majority of land sellers offer fair prices and the pricing is consistent throughout much of that particular region.
    I suspect that the number of members who participate in price gouging is relatively low.
    Would a 16 meter plot for 9999L$ be used by LL in calculating the per meter average?
    Is that the reason for not addressing the price gouging issue?

    I am just an average dude, how will smart people feel about this system?
    I believe in having a free and open markets and I embrace the idea of a dynamically new market place with unlimited possibilities.
    I don’t believe in abandoning every rule precedent or custom that regulates most of the world’s markets.

    If a seller always charges 9999L$ for a 16 meter parcel. Then that’s not price gouging.
    So, dear seller, send me proof that this is your normal rate for services rendered and we will have a deal.

    I only answer to spider pig

  33. Brodie Rothschild says:

    Land search is working fine for me. Not sure what issues others are having.

    In the last 3 days, green mature mainalnd has gone from 4.2 to 3.7 I think sellers were anticipating the mainland supply starting up again and so have been dumping for the last 2 days or so. A two week reprive will help but mainland is still saturated.

    If you want to truly know the price of Green, Flat, Mature mainland look at the current search prices, Sort by PSQM and I am seeing closer numbers to 4.0 instead of 7.25 and it is a very fragile 4.0 right now. If you had announced you were starting up full sim auctions even 2 every two days, we would have seen prices plummit to 3.0 in the next day or two.

    If you held off till the fall or went to a 1 or two new sims every 3 days this land market might be alot healthier.

  34. Joshe Darkstone says:

    with 29 sims to be concerned I have taken to simply charging enough to cover the tiers and hoping to keep them occupied for the time being, The obvious motivation for LL is making money, they charge as much as the market will bear, even if the market will kick and scream about it, Until people begin to abandon their land back to LL and others cease to buy up the mainland there will be no motivation for LL to drop tier prices. They do not respond to requests to do so 🙂

    The affect of recent changes has been more then a little abusive, having hooked landowners with high “setup fees” (1000 is high too, its an automated process) the landowner is compelled to try to keep the land and cover the tier even at a loss since the alternative is to abandon the land and take even larger losses on the setup fees.
    More prims is a good thing? theres no one to see them.

    LL provides no support for use of openarea sims for anything but open space. if you use it to live on you are not going to get support. The fees charged for name changes and moves are rediculous. $150 to move a sim? It costs $250 to buy a new one, oh… thats the point. High fees force us to add new islands and hold old ones. fo course, since theres no profit in just comverign tiers the time is coming when I will start accepting the larger loss and just abandon them to LL.

  35. Longanimous Yoshikawa says:

    I agree with Ellen Spark and as LL has previously expressed very clearly – the profit center in their flawed business model is new land sales, not happy users. Just like Miami where I live, this is much driven by speculators and in the long run (as we are seeing) this devalues existing land and destroys in world businesses. We are seeing a the market bust with no compensation. Are sim owners like Ellen compensated for losses caused by LL? Are their teirs lowered to be in line with new land?

    There is no stability and no real concern for the very real world we live in, our Second Lives, by LL. Until LL finds a more sustainable business model, they will continue to sabotage what they have created. Only moving forward, causing trauma for those settled in and invested in time, real money, and emotion.

    I have no business in SL, only own my little parcel of heaven apart from the RL, but every time I travel out into our world, places I enjoyed are gone…

  36. Praetor Janus says:

    Hello Jack,

    “… an average of L$7.25”, LOL say L$2.25 and you’ll be closer to reality LOL

    All the Best

  37. Xia Nishi says:

    I too would like to see LL make some proactive policy changes, not just in the way land is created — just say no to land glut — but the way it is sold, divided, and resold. I’m sure you’ve heard this over and over again LL, but I guess you need to hear it again… the minimum parcel size needs to be something like 256m2 to cut down on the 16m adfarm BS. The mainland SL countryside quite frankly looks like crap.

  38. Harmony Deschanel says:

    Anyone else noticed that while the Linden’s pump out more and more mainland the number of premium accounts has actually been on the decline since December … Every month, its gone down. Mainland is owned by premium accounts … More and more seem to be dropping the premium accounts because they don’t want to own land (at least thats what my friends say when they say they’re reverting to a basic free account … “I don’t want to own land, I can’t afford the tier fee”) … Since December 2007, there’s been a loss of nearly 6,000 premium accounts.

  39. les says:

    yeah. no need for more land. you already put out your quarterly. SL grew by 44% i read. har har har.

    Btw, you guys stacking more sims per server now? Cause they seem to have lost some overhead.

    Care to deny or confirm?

  40. Loydin Tripp says:

    I hope everyone is paying close attention to this announcement.

    If you were ever uncertain or confused about the true nature of Second Life and the long term intentions of Linden Labs in regards to being an open platform, here is the statement that makes it abundantly clear.

    The preoccupation with virtual land and profits generated by the manipulation of its supply is not the road to an open grid or 3D virtual platform.

    Any resident who has a business based on the value of land should take heed, your fortunes can rise or fall on the simple decision of Linden Labs to benefit themselves, you are not at the top of that list. Real land, a fixed and limited supply, and virtual land, an easily added to supply by investing in technology, ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

    Base your business survival on this and nothing else, and you are placing yourself at the peril of parties who do not have your well being at heart. I don’t think anyone could say that Linden Labs has said anything to the contrary or have issued any fraudulent statements that these facts are incorrect but they do hype and promote the value of virtual land to the exclusion of this reality and they never issue any heads up statements on this aspect of their virtual land products.

    Someday we will see a virtual world open platform that we all will use that will be like the internet, based on interaction and not just interactivity. But it is increasingly clear that Second Life will not be that model and Linden Labs will not be providing the leadership in that development.

  41. Simeon Beresford says:

    If Linden labs cared about mainland they would set auto return and remove banlines from all reclaimed land. Its not like they cannot afford a bot.

    and if they really cared they woud realy realy cared they would have a mole team landscaping it.

    How can they expect land to sell when they are reponsible for so many ugly sims?

    I dont expect to see a minimum price of more than 5l/m in the next 3 months

  42. Rhaorth Antonelli says:

    Hi Jack
    I think it is good that you guys are holding off for now, too much is not a good thing.

    I miss you man, never get to see you anymore 😦
    (tell them to stop making you work so darn hard!!)

  43. Dana Vanmoer says:

    So today it looks like LL has realised there is a problem. Sarah Nerd put land prices at around 5L$ per meter whereas Jack Linden puts it at around 7.25L$ and I know who has the correct price here. I guess its another example of lack of time spent inworld on behalf of the Lindens but this is a slight show of reason after flooding the grid for months now…………………………………….

  44. Dinohunden Paine says:

    Like others have said too. LL do NOT care about the private simowners. They only focus on mainland, because they know, that they are not so likely to bail out, due to larger investment. I cannot understand why the tier are so much higher than on mainland.
    Unfortunatly, it looks like LL just want to pump the mainland up, don’t give a BEEB about the private sims and then wait for Google or other to buy SL, and take the money and RUN!
    If I’m wrong, then LL has a huge job to do about the bots, that they allow ( and treasure) and they should get rid of this ridicilous economy, and remove 2 zeros, so there would be an economy in here. But only trafic coults, does it look like.
    Stop padding yourself on the shoulder LL and get busy fixing all these problems, otherwise, I guess we can just look forward to a sale of SL or an better alternative.
    Too bad for those, who are stuck with private sims….

  45. Adjacent to where I have my quarters, there are 8 or 9 512sqm lots for sale, when ´moving about in SL I can see several more 512sqm lots for sale.
    When I use the inworld land-search function to check how many there would be for sale in total, of these small “beginner” sized parcels, I find less than 50, and none of these actually are the parcels neighboring my land – so that’s how useful the search is.
    B.t.w. the price averages 6.83/sqm so compared to the Lindens’ 7.25 they are cheap.

  46. Fortyniner Beck says:

    The current land search for mainland (PG and Mature) 1024m2 lots and above shows a page full of land at L$3.7 to L$4.1

    I can not see that the average price is L$7.25, or am I missing something here ?

  47. nina says:

    ‘average’ also takes into account those $9k 16m extortion plot sales and so on.

  48. Tony Upshaw says:

    Kudos, for paying attention to the land value issue. I won’t get into whether or not you numbers are based on actual averages of mainland pricing and so forth. I’ll simplify it.

    Ask yourself, as a company if you wish to continue to deal with abandoned land. Unless you continue the course your are on now, sadly, that will continue.

    There have been comments about making abandoned land available for us to buy as soon as it’s available. Don’t do that please. In the end, it still contributes to the flooding of the land market, some landbuyer just will get it a bit cheaper, and most likely, they will overextend themselves buying and end up re-abandoning anyway…chuckles.

    As far as the current price of private island tier? You do what you can to stabilize the market, and I’ll hold on as long as I can….smiles Reason why? You cheapen tier, estate buyers will overextend and end up losing the islands anyway, or they’ll let them turn to ghettos, allowing anyone with cash in, ignoring the covenant, and eventually they become junk. I’ve already been through that. I abandoned some estate parcels I had. They were not worth the tier to keep them. If ya saw this island, you would have sworn it was mainland it was so ugly…chuckles. Shame.

    Keep doing what you’re doing. Don’t know how this is all gonna turn out, but you are headed in the right direction.

  49. Confused Concierge says:

    Where did those numbers come from? I been trying to sell my mainland land for 3 months at about 1/4 of what I originally paid for it 12L and 2L under the so called Average price and its NOT selling (scratching head wonders where the land bots are)
    hmm ok I am taking a loss. Now there are about 32 16m lots right next to the same parcel for sale for 900-5000L each ..
    This all seems like a bad movie where the little farmer gets bullied into just giving up and letting the interstate build thru the family farm and loosing a legacy. After a little math 3*134 = 400 for stagnant land [pressing the (Abandon Land) button] might be my only option now..

  50. SimQt Boa says:

    The fact really NOBODY here feels disappointed and asks you to put out more land should say enough. But hmm, for LL it will always be a matter of pushing the limits to make more profit.

  51. Iskar Ariantho says:

    Well, dont make it impossible to create parcels < 256 sqm. I use small parcels to put different (video) streams on. Just make it impossible to sell those smaller parcels < 256 sqm to anybody.

  52. Common Sense says:

    Thank you Jack Linden.

    The quality of SL mainland has really improved because of all the recent changes, so much so that mainland is a very viable alternative to purchasing private sim parcels.

    Mainland is MUCH LESS laggier than it used to be. The distribution of mainland as regions, ensures that they are more organized.

    For those who cannot afford to buy a region or private sim, buying mainland is a secure investment, since private sims are closing all the time due to the owners not being able to maintain their cumulative tiers, and then you lose your parcel before you even have a chance to sell it without any compensation from the sim owner.

    I’ve seen mainland regions which are just as nice if not nicer than private sims – it is not true that private sims suffer less lag than mainland.

    A mainland parcel is really yours once you buy it, unlike a private sim where the sim owner can kick you off anytime and take back the parcel you paid for.

    The only reason why one might purchase on a private sim is because of community, and creative content, ie. on themed continents. Otherwise you may as well buy better value mainland. Also, because land is cheaper you can afford extra square metres.

    Mainland is really the way to go.

  53. Noisey Lane says:

    He says 7.25, she says 5, the other guy says 2.25 – hey!! gambling is NOT allowed!! – and that’s about the size of it.

  54. Dinohunden Paine says:

    To No. 54….. I don’t know how much you’ve paid for what you’re smoking, but just trust me on this one… Yo’ve NOT been cheatied, it really works well…
    I don’t know where on mainland you come, but buying land on mainland also means, that you have NO influence what so ever of what your neighbour might come up with. It can be all from an eye-sore to new record in scripts/sqrm.
    No, the only reason to pump out more mainland is, that LL wants the private simowners to go give up, keep their money and maintain the mainland, because it’s easier for them…. Only… then the whole idea with SL is gone. It should be, that LL provides the land, the residents build the world, but as it seems now, LL fight that with all means.. It’s sad, but true.

  55. grumbit grut says:

    weep weep

    I payed 21L$ per SQ for a full sim a bit more then a year ago….

    DONT TEL ME I HAVE NOT BEEn FORKED !

    .

  56. Michaela Kuhn says:

    Proportion of active member and offered plots getting wrong. Raise up the setup charge and shrink the tierfees. SecondLife land is currently growing too fast and inworld market of parcels and stuff will collapse. Currently is the best way to hold investments and keep an eye on openSim project, with or without maingrid interface/LL.

  57. Another Opinion says:

    i sure hope SL will atleast sell those last full regions scattered around the map, that shouldnt have too much of an impact (very marginal)

    i dont feel any sympathy for estate owners complaining about not beeing able to sell their estate land, frankly it shouldnt even have the option to sell for more then L$0 or L$1 for a full parcel,

    also the average seems ok ?, as a buyer i can get a parcel as low as 3.7, or if i wished a nice protected ocean front for maybe as high as 17, since the latter is an underdog, the average seems right on ?

  58. Common Sense says:

    I think the only people I see complaining are the private estate owner land barons because they aren’t making any money from LL’s initiative to provide cheaper land to benefit the users.

    LL did not screw any one over to make more money. They’re improving mainland and making it more attractive to buy because new users don’t want to invest much money when they start in the game. Everyone will be better off from this model.

    If SL is not making any money for you because nobody is buying parcels on your private estate, don’t expect anyone to feel sorry for you – you’re better off than many people already who have little or nothing at all.

  59. Esther Merryman says:

    Lots of entries by large land owners, island or mainland complaining about profits in an unstable world.

    I also pay alot in tier but for my enjoyment not to make profit, if you cannot afford to pay the tier abandon your land, in my view it is as simple as that, Yes a large initial investment was made 1600$ and that seems like alot to give up, but another 5 months loosing the island tier and you are already close to that.

    Maybe linden labs will see the level of disapointment you all have, and change tier prices, but look at their past performance do you really think they are going to do anything quickly?

    I own mainland because 295$ a month is more than I am prepared to pay out, 195$ a month would be far better and would encourage me to get an island instead of staying with mainland.

    However we all have to be prepared to walk away, if it is nessecary, more so for those dependedent on making an income, no one should be holding on to land waiting for prices to raise again.

    This statement gives a simple hint of pricing levels for the future.
    —————————————————————————-
    After review, we have decided to remain as we have been, so we are not going to add any more Mainland whole regions for the next two weeks. We will review again on the 1st August and blog then to let you know if there is a change.
    —————————————————————————-
    Current price is stable at 7.25L thats where the lindens want it to be if it starts to rise more regions will be added if it doesnt they will not be adding any more.

    Personally I am still prepared to pay 10L/sqm for areas of interest to me, but 0L elsewhere My opinion is 50% of the mainland is a cess pit of valueless land.
    Mainly down to the lack action taken by linden labs in relation to mainland adfarming.

  60. Dinohunden Paine says:

    Listen, Common Sense… Please STOP smoking that, itøs not good for you….
    You belive, that because people can afford to buy a private sim, then LL can BEEB them in the BEEB? The meaning of private sims are, as I understand it, that it gives people a possibillity to make their own vision come through, which offcourse will demand some tenants to some to the place. They can’t compeete with mainland, because the tier’s wayyy to high compared to mainland. If that could be the same, it would give all a fair chance, but 100 US$ in difference is impossible to keep up with, even if US are skrewed in their economy and we get the US$ cheaper than ever.

  61. Nicolas Fouquet says:

    It is Linden’s OBLIGATION to regulate the private island market.

    You can’t be GOD and say : “whatever happens I don’t care”.

  62. Dark Otsuzum says:

    “Buy land. They’ve stopped making it.”

    – Mark Twain

  63. Scythe Elfenbeim says:

    Dear LL,

    I hurt because of the extra land you’ve added but, fair enough, you see the bigger picture and have a business plan (one hopes).

    I would say you need to look at quality of SL life a little closer though.

    I see these points raised whenever you have ANY blog subject, let alone ones where they are relevant.

    * Ad farms
    * Bots
    * Tier prices too high
    * Addition of too much land when so much remains for sale
    * Technical failures and issues

    There are a lot of people with what started as minor grievances that are now starting to escalate in how “bad” they are making people feel, and having run my own company in RL I would be very very concerned at the levels expressed here. These folks above aren’t ranting at you. They sound like very frustrated people with legitimate concerns and they clearly feel that they are shouting into a void.

    You have a PR problem that’s growing and that should be addressed.

    Of course one expects a certain amount of dissatisfaction, that’s life and SL. Remaining silent and not getting down to some serious replies is more damaging to LL than just coming out once and for all and telling us that what you will and will not do. If you will NEVER address ad farms and bots, make it plain with a statement.

    I’ve already been told emphatically that tier prices will not change. So be it. It has mean I will be limited in what I can do, how inventive I can be, and it is as a direct result of that decision.

    I have also been told that SL land is for whatever people want to use it for and that there are no rules apart from the ones we’re all covered by. You do have rules in place that should allow us to report people who create 16sqm plots to drive down land prices, but they don’t work. At present all we can do is abandon the land to those unscrupulous low-lifes. That’s their “game”.

    The serious point here is that it makes SL unpleasant, a place where one doesn’t want to be. If another SL like world came online that put these very valid concerns expressed by everyone above at a higher priority, how long do you think it would be before LL had to give land away to users just to keep them?

    Sorry, this post is far too long. First rule of any serious business proposal is make it brief and concise, and in that I’ve failed miserably.

    I’ll finish by saying, please give my request to have low use sea all the way around the mainland serious thought. There are a growing number of people who like to sail around but it’s almost impossible if the land dominates a sim right to the “edge”.

    If any of you reading this (you’ve made it this far?!!!) own such land, consider putting a channel in for boats and charge a few Lindens to let people through, a small amount, e.g. 10L$ to traverse your land. Heck, there’s a way to make money for nothing and we all pay that to upload a few kbytes of image!

    Having access to the sea all around the mainland for yatch races etc seems like a worthy project to try doesn’t it? It’s how some of us have a bit of fun (when not in pole dancing clubs etc).

    Please, give it some thought. Thanks.

    Scythe.

  64. Artfox Daviau says:

    One would have expected a comment from LL by now. I applaud the increase in Linden comments in these blogs

    One question : Do you intend to reduce tier on private islands? Its a simple question and the answer is simple too. Yes, Under review, Not at this point. No, Never, Actually we were thinking of raising it ….?

    Trust me, I’m already very disappointed betrayed and annoyed about the asset loss of value on my islands

  65. Belial Zadeh says:

    Sounds like communism to me lol.

  66. Upward Flow says:

    7.25 L$/m???
    Just where does LL get the figures that they base these Land decisions on? It certainly does not jibe with what is easily observable in-world, nor does it ever come close to what the published public metrics are. If the published metrics are not what is used, then they should be changed to reflect the figures that LL uses internally to decide which way things are to go.

    From the latest ‘published’ metrics for the month of July MTD we see: Total Square MetersSold by Residents 59,121,712. Avg L$ Paid Per Square Meter 2.4844

    Are we to be told with any finality what the published figures represent? One month they include 0 L$ sales, the next they don’t, but nowhere is it specified how the figures we are supplied with are calculated, both by the published metrics and by blog posts by LL employees such as this one that give us these numbers. Some clarification on this would be nice – oh and if land is actually selling at 7.25/m then will LL buy my land for 7.2/m (they can make a profit – lol)

  67. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Confused concierge: if there’s an adfarm next to you, abuse-report it.

  68. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Jack: “Mainland price per meter has halted and the price is now holding steady at an average of L$7.25 (averaged over the last seven days).”

    Is that *asking* price, or actual sale price?

    There’s 512 square meter parcels listing for L$30,000, but they have nothing to do with the market. If those are being inlcuded in the “Mainland price” that makes as much sense as counting the people offering L$1/US$1 on Lindex in figuring the current exchange rate.

  69. Master Quatro says:

    Jack ..

    You raised private island prices from $1200 to $1675 one year and dropped them to $1000 the next. You called this a “business plan”. You obviously are a better comedian then a serious manager of the most important function is SL, virtual land sales. In the real world anyone who came up with such failed pricing strategies and wildly fluctuating virtual estate values would have been fired. I’m more then disappointed having purchased at least 6 private islands at $1675 and now can hardly rent or sell virtual land at a price to recover my investment.
    Nobody is looking for guarantees or risk free investments in SL but neither should our assets be devalued by a drastic 40% in less then a year, due only to the incompetence and lack of a real business plan of those running the land store and ultimately LL.
    I respect the work you guys do and the assistance the concierge team provides. I think they are the best think to happen at LL and SL. I wish I could say the same for the “management” of estate pricing strategies.
    Using the mainland to drive private island owners out of busines after taking our money shows utter disdain for Linden Lab’s best customers. On top of that whole continents still only pay $195/month tier fees. How about stabilizing and evening the laying field. Migrate everyone to class 5 servers at a tier level somewhere between $195 and $295 / month. This will put all all private estate owners at a level competitive field.

  70. Master Quatro says:

    There is a popular book on Amazon called “How to Lie with Statistics” by Darrell Huff. It must be required reading at Linden lab.

  71. Tom says:

    Comon Jack Lad use your noggin we need a real plan of info here its not really any good to state average price per meter sold as this does not reflect a true result for all land sales….

    1. What is the ideal min price per meter.
    2. Is it better to have min price value of land cost more than teir costs (YES)

    Do people buy land in empty sims more than full ones (NO) ie land for prims.

    Take steps like these then work out how much total land needs to be set for sale on the grid before adding land plz try and give us all a solid base so we can work together and get stable pricing going.

  72. TundraFire Nightfire says:

    What is probably driving down land prices is the fact so much of it is becoming ad-farms. I’m seriously considering selling my land and never buying land again because LL will do nothing about the proliferation of ad-farms on the mainland.

  73. ZoHa Boa says:

    Why does it still takes more then 10 days to convert a full sim into 4 open space sims ? See ticket #4051-5009378

    You only have to delete the old sim and create 4 new ones.

    With the new land store or a simular tool it’s less then 5 minutes work and you ask 100us$ for it.

    If you don’t have the staff for it i’m willing to do it for 25us$ per conversion and i can guarentee you that it will be done in less then 24hrs !!

  74. Tegg B says:

    I wonder whether LL “average land price” is based on sales or just land for sale which includes all those $20L-$50L 16m plots and even a few I seen for $100,000L.
    Does it exclude $1 sales between group members and bot transactions?

  75. Cherry Asturias says:

    i have had nothing but loss in sl between my buying and selling lower than half what i paid just so that i can move without having tier jacked up due to one day of being out of sorts. i have had nothing but massive loss with my inventory since december of 2006. sl is a money pit. i have stayed to play due to my habitual personal hobby building but i have now FINALLY gotten sick and tire of my constant inventory loss enough that i am hardly even logging into sl. i am selling my land i have now at loss as usual and the price i have it set for i have people IM me request for lower which i find irritating being as it is already being sold at my loss !! i now rent cheaply from a long time friend just a small place to have for when i do log on for the five minutes that i log on to stare into space then log off again. AND yes the ad farms and red ban lines so many insist on using make sl a most ugly miserable place to play !!

  76. Tish Noel says:

    Well, in Beliandro where I own, the property prices seem to be rising. I bought 2048 sqm of protected waterfront a couple of weeks ago for L$34,888 & the same size property next to mine is now up for sale for L$60,000! Of course, whether he gets that much or not will remain to be seen…..

  77. Richie Freund says:

    The new sims are awful. Even the beaches are covered with concrete and with Megeprim-fences and adfarms all around. I wouldnt pay more then 2.5L for that parcels. Hey, I pay the same landtier for good quality land and I pay half of it in BayCity. So why should I buy in your new sims onyl to save an equivalant of 1 monthly tier? Lowering or rising landprices are irrelevant as long as quality and neighborhood is awful.

    You promised to expand the BayCity – now start it so we are able to pay the parcels there too.

  78. Tom says:

    @78 Ti.. just depends how intrested some people in the sim are about the land that plot next to your land will drop in price they are just hoping that you may need the prims just keep an eye on it its always better to buy land in a city rather than a desert if you catch my drift 🙂

  79. xiD Dix says:

    High land prices in SL are only good for the next metaverse to pop up. There is no way things can stay as they were.

    Remember that SL is just a first generation environment of its time, and second generation programs are already available.

  80. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Tish@78: you can’t go by offered price, you can only go by actual sale price (see also my comment @70 and Tegg’s @76).

    What’s a reasonable land price? Well, before the first land bubble (started when land bots really went into action) it was easing up past L$6 per square meter. During the bubble it peaked over L$20/m and dropped to L$3 after it burst. That seems to have been the usual progression, so don’t plan on a long term stable price even as high as L$10/m.

  81. Shipper Sodwind says:

    One good thing the Lindens did was the “openspace” project. That surely helped all the private island owners offset costs?

    Just a shame they did not open it to non-full sim Island owners like me. I have now rented an openspace sim privately but am paying well over the odds for it. But it’s all I need prim wise.

    Hopefully that will change soon and “openspace” sims will be available to all.

    Ship

  82. Argent Stonecutter says:

    xid@81: SL is third generation: 1st generation was 2d and 2.5d chat systems, 2nd generation was 3d chat systems, 3rd generation is 3d virtual worlds… of which there are three I know of: There, Active Worlds, and Second Life. IMVU, Lively, and the other more recent systems I’ve seen are a refresh of the 2nd generation… they’re not worlds: Lively doesn’t even have a first person or over-the-shoulder view!

  83. filbert holmer says:

    Jack,

    Asking price and selling price are two very differnet animals. You figures suggest asking price. The fact is that you will not move much land at 7.25/sqm.
    The problem is simple, supply and demand. The supply is going up, and more importantly demand, premium accounts, is going down. The solution is obvious. Bring us premium accounts while keeping land volume steady.

    Time to ramp up the marketing department guys.

  84. SNIM Outlander says:

    Yeah… but you completely screwed up the Teen-grids mainland prices. *claps*

    Thanks for the great research into the teen-grid land market -_-

  85. Ric Mollor says:

    It’s a mistake to believe that land prices are related to supply of SL land and the demand of customers.

    Land prices are increasingly reflecting demand vs the supply of virtual land in ALL worlds.

    And with an ever lengthening list of virtual worlds offering free land and/or homes the perceived value of Second Life ‘land’ can only go down.

    IMVU gives users free homes.

    Lively gives users free spaces to decorate

    OpenSim gives users entire free sims. And there is a P2P project that gives *every* user their own sim.

    Kaneva gives users free homes.

    Active Worlds has servers with ‘unmoderated building’

    Will this list get shorter? Of course not!

    And please, no ‘I’ve tried that world and it doesn’t compete with SL’ comments.

    All worlds compete with SL.

    Everything you can click on with your PC competes with SL

    Everything that a person can do (real and virtual) competes with SL

    It’s only entertainment for most. And the number of options in modern society is ‘virtually’ unlimited. :^)

  86. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @46 To determine the reason why mainland tier is lower then island tier you have to look at how they charge for mainland. If you purchase mainland, even for a single day, you will pay for that land for the entire month. The land can resell once per week and they will receive full payment for that land from 4 different accounts. In this way LL make MUCH more from mainland then the published tiers. Conversely, An island is charged to a single account and if that island is sold and resold throghout the month LL is not participating in the transaction.

    I expect if you had access to the data you would find that mainland tiers paid to LL per sqm are much higher then you think. The only way to reap the benefits of a lower tier is to carefully time your purchases so that you use the land in whole months.

  87. I invite the residents to view the SL statistics at http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php and note that the Avg L$ Paid Per Square Meter was 2.81 for June and is running at 2.48 for the current month.
    The figure in the blog must be the inflated average asking prices, and include extortion prices for 16 sqm plots, or sale plots used just to get free ads in the land sales search; use the real figures from the statistic page and Linden can put off selling mainland regions for the next year or two.

  88. Linda Brynner says:

    I keep my land business on halt as I lost all faith due to too many issues. I will see in September again.

  89. Kathy Morellet says:

    @89 Yes, I noticed that discrepancy as well and invite Jack to explain the difference?

  90. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @83 “One good thing the Lindens did was the “openspace” project. That surely helped all the private island owners offset costs?”

    LOL, the opensim “land rush” has done as much to decimate the private island market as the continent has. It was downright sneakyand underhanded. In quick succession they…

    Doubled the prim count, adding perceived value, simowners hit the boards with new orders at the $450 price.

    As soon as the new island delivery was becoming managable (sales had peaked) they pulled the rug out from under all the landowners by announcing the new pricing, while continuing to sell at the old pricing for weeks pending the new land store, with no notice to those that were buying islands in the landstore that there was a new price coming. I was offering a $500 reward for anyone who could get me the list of new island owners so that I could encourage them to return their islands at the time.

    having had our land devalued by some 40% I guess you are thinking that buying more of the cheaper islands should mitigate the losses. Well, thats what they were counting on for the next push, and thats what happened. but thats not how it worked, LL started pumping out cheap mainland, landowners started buying the new islands to mitigate their losses, and now you cant rent land unless you lower the tier to… the tier 😛

    The upshot is the land market is bust and we who invested in it are left to do “busywork” trying to cover tiers from month to month. Of course LL profited at each stage of this plan, and jack touted it as a way to “give something back to the residents”.

    They’ve taken a lesson from the Bush administration; Ignore the facts, Market it as the “blue skies initiative”, and stuff your pockets, quick, before the competion overtakes you. When things go awry at least you will have all the money 😛

    THey are building second life on our backs, wake up and smell the turdpiles. I’ve adjusted, I lose as little as I can on land and do my thing with building/selling now. I imagine they will figure out how to kill that too. Copybot is a good start.

  91. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Ric: If you’re going to expand the target market beyond virtual worlds into 3d chat systems, then you might as well to include Warcraft, Youtube, XBox Live, and the local pub. I think you recognise that, even though you try and spin it as if that mattered. It doesn’t, because SL isn’t going to add fish farming and video hosting and Halo and real physical alcoholic beverages, and only a complete nutter would expect them to. A comparison that can’t be used to draw conclusions about “what kinds of things should LL be doing” isn’t a useful one, no matter how satisfactory it might be.

    If you’re going to compare equivalent products, then there’s only three right now: There, ActiveWorlds, and Second Life. Opensim is not really a separate product from Second Life, yet. I’m sure it will be some day, but right now they’re stuck tracking whatever LL does… they can’t provide a guide for the future.

    It wouldn’t be all that hard for some company to come up with something that would drain the SL userbase overnight, it’s obvious how they can make it happen, but nobody seems to want to give up control over content.

  92. xchandler bing says:

    More –
    Can anyone tell me what happened to the social aspect of SL? Over a year ago, there were so many people around that wanted to chat and make new friends. Now everyone I see is camping, and they don’t talk. Do you know what this means? It means that most residence logged in are not actually people behind the computer, or one person behind a bunch of computers on their land so that they can inflate their traffic.

    I miss the old SL. It was a lot of fun. Where ever I went there were residents that wanted to chat and hang out. Now it is difficult to find a resident to talk to.

    I feel like I have lost my connection with SL. I am not sure I will continue much longer.

    Additionally, the inworld resident population is so sparse, I rarely see groups of people together anymore. It looks like most residence wander around aimlessly.

    The old sl residence are gone. Very few of my “friends” I had over a year ago still log on. As I continue my business, I notice that the new residence don’t last long and they don’t spend money.

    My sales are in the toilet, where I used to make a good number of sale. Same store, same location, same goods, new goods, better stuff, less sales, less traffic, less fun.

    LL, do you hear us?

    I may stop my store and abandon the land because I am no longer making enough money from my store to pay the tier. I think LL has ruined the economy. Add a flailing RL economy, and I think LL will see a perfect storm.

    Why won’t I see my land? Most of the rest of my sim, and adjacent sims have a lot of land for sale that has been for sale for months. They are also offering the land at a price way below what I paid. Nobody is buying…

    When are you going to listen LL? You should only add new land when the amount of mainland for sale has dropped to a much lower level. That is the true measure of supply and demand.

    Also, drop the tier. We are facing a RL recession. Do not think you are insulated.

  93. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @27: Linden lab’s first responsibility is to its shareholders.

    Shareholders? Did I miss an announcement?

  94. shawnwirtz tiki says:

    All the private island owners that lost 600 dollars per each islands value over night a couple months ago – why cant you give us island owners who paid 1600 for an island 2 months of no tier fees to make up for our sudden 40 percent lose of value of the land we paid 1600 for.

    That is a giant over night lose especially to those who have numerous islands that lost that much value they paid over night

    please

  95. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @60: They’re improving mainland and making it more attractive to buy

    Private island owners have been doing that for years, with the added benefit that we actually try to keep the place looking nice, monitor script lag, mediate disputes between residents, and don’t require renters to have a premium account or pay an initial purchase fee on top of their tier. And yet we’re the jerks for trying to recoup our costs? Riiight.

  96. Key Metrics:

    Active Users July ’07: 561,485
    Active Users May ’08: 532,606
    Drop of 5.14%

    Land Size July ’07: 779.95km2
    Land Size May ’08: 1,429.65km2
    Increase of 83.3%

    Users per sim July ’07: 47.17
    Users per sim May ’08: 24.41

    (Active Users/(Land Size*1,000,000/65536))

  97. Skye Whitcroft says:

    Looking at the AVERAGE price for land is a trailing indicator of the land market. For more sophisticated analysis, SL needs to be tracking the marginal price of land.

    Average prices will lead to letting the market overheat (again!), and then with far too long of an over-reaction response (again!). SL creates far higher booms and far lower bust cycles than it should.

    Start tracking marginal prices of benchmarks. Yes, it will take thought, analysis, and developing an internal methodology, but you guys can do it. They will give you far greater insight to your land market.

    If you want a comparison… think what the average price for oil would tell you versus the spot price. Average oil prices would be FAR lower than the margin price right now, and we’d all be left scratching our heads why the price of a gallon of gas in Texas went from $2.10 to $4.00 in 3 months.

    Talk about average prices makes me very grumpy at you Jack.

  98. Fulano Mangano says:

    @95 Every company has shareholders (i.e. owners). This does not mean the company is public. LL’s founders and investors are the shareholders.

  99. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @100: Fair enough. I’ve just been hearing a lot of speculation about IPOs lately is all.

  100. Driftwood Miles says:

    I think the term is “Nuff Said” Thanks Montana 😉

  101. Robert Galland says:

    I think that some people have made some excellent points here. It is clear that the land supply is at extremes and does not support the current user base. That is a real issue since LL seems to have built their business model on auctions, private islands sales, and the tier that goes along with both. Your drive is to remain profitable and I believe it is your right. However, I do think that LL is being short-sighted at this time when it comes to land. I believe LL should consider not only suspending mainland auctions, but also the sale of private and open space regions for the time being. Private islands are exchanging hands at well below the 1000 buy in level right now in resident to resident transactions. Anyone considering buying a private island should buy from another resident because, Lord knows, there are many looking to get out. You will save agreat deal of money in the current market. LL moves and renames regions without cost currently if done at the same time as the transfer. It is a no-brainer. Why buy a region for 1000 when you can get it for 500-650 from another resident. That is where the market is now for private islands.

    I agree with those that say LL is not responsible for ensuring that our businesses are profitable. That includes private estate owners. However, I can tell you that I am glad that about 98% of my business endeavors are in content creation as opposed to land.

    While I do believe that the ultimate responsibility for our businesses is our own, it is fair to point out that as far as virtual land is concerned, which has come to be charachterized as a “service” to justify the decrease in private island prices, it was LL that CHOSE to market it as if it is a capital asset, even though it is not. You have thousands of customers who treat it as a capital asset because of the way LL marketed virtual land. It is reckless to change the game midway and you are seeing the frustration. Lindens have indicated as technology decreases in price, that buy-in prices will drop again. I would not be buying any regions, private or mainland, from LL anytime soon folks.

    You deserve to be profitable LL. I want you to be. I really believe you have been short-sighted about profits when it comes to the land issue, though.

  102. Scythe Elfenbeim says:

    @99 Petrol (gas) is about the equivalent of US$11 here, but that’s by the by.

    It strikes me from the serious nature and obviously well considered comments here that we need to put our points forward in an organised way to LL so that they don’t have to wade through blogs like this one and also so that we have a bit more say.

    I believe it would be a good step to have representatives from all aspects of SL, LL, island owners, businesses, mainland owners and users communicate with each other effectively and be able to voice their needs.

    SL is a symbiotic relationship between LL (who provide what is, despite the negatives, a fantastic forward thinking facility) and those who use and consume what it offers (without whom SL could not exist).

    Let’s get around a table and work out a way forward that’s practical, sustainable, viable and something that we all look forward to being part of.

  103. JR Unknown says:

    It’s summertime, the market is in the pits, and you want to even consider releasing more mainland?? Hopefully you will share whatever it is that you guys sit around and smoke to think this BS up at the SLCC.

  104. Curtis Dresler says:

    I think Argent is wrong. When you can purchase a server box for $ 400 and hang it off of the 20Gb connection you already have, install linux and Open Sim software for free and have a region or two that you really own, SL has to recognize that long term, their current model will not work. When the underlying factors are down to a few intragrid issues to make the open grids competitive in features, the time line is not as long as assumed. And at that point, it will take one Internet hosting company with the infrastructure in place and sitting next to the biggest Internet backbones to put out an Open Grid with some pop to it – with a known path to the intergrid future.

    I know the Open Sim drawbacks now, but I also know the progress and process, I simply do not understand why someone would put money of any kind into an island owned (in reality) by another entity. Its like I paid my Internet host a premium price for space on their server, with the knowledge that I could not move it and if there were any disputes, they could take the web site per their rules and claim ownership, with the illusory idea that I had some probability of selling that space in competition against the host itself. Huh? Say what? And, of course, little recourse if my content kept showing up on other web sites they hosted, with them saying that they couldn’t do much about it.

    No, I’ll stay in SL as a small renter now and build for the future – on the server I hope to have running on Saturday. RP in Bondomia, but join a grid and invite friends to visit. Give a region to some content providers for free, other than help with my region (use Second Inventory to export/import). No, I think the future is really starting Monday or Tuesday. Empty region? Why? I can invite ten or fifteen friends to join me. Not quite SL, but I think I’ll have as many people as many regions in SL now.

  105. Driftwood Miles says:

    @103 The suspension of LL Sim Sales across the board would, for sure, over a short time reinvigorate a stagnant indeed declining land market. And indeed imo would prevent what could VERY easily become a terminal decline in the whole platform.
    Second Life is truly an incredible and in the short term a unique experience and I have to salute the innovators at the Lab and the whole team who have given opportunities to entrepreneurs, artists, thrill seekers and the like to express themselves in this pretty cool place.
    However there have been many decisions that have hit the grid like a powerful earthquake, causing destruction…and like the natural phenomena come with little or no warning. There is a swelling tide of unrest and many residents feel that their efforts and indeed their hard cash is accepted in bad grace and with little appreciation or understanding that their needs to be a better reciprocal arrangement.
    The figures tell a story….resident experiences tell a story…..everything points to a slide. Little excuse is needed now for unloved residents eyes to wander at any hint of an equivalent platform, even a whisper of one causes browsers to point elsewhere……if one comes along….what loyalty can be counted on?
    Second Life for me is a fantastic experience and I genuinely want it to thrive. I am blown away by the creativity of it’s residents and the Lab has produced something that is frankly awesome!! Above all the sense of community and the potential of the power for good unleashing itself here is remarkable.
    Alas it seems the community spirit is sporadic and becoming less cohesive.
    The Lab may have a hidden agenda and that is their right….but from the outside , if it is a jump start that Second Life needs then they could do no worse than to look at the suggestions of Robert Galland above.

  106. This isn’t at 150 yet? That’s telling. Enough apathy to go around, I guess.

    1. Yes, it’s wise to not increase mainland.

    2. You guys hired a statistician, now make that person give you stats that actually MEAN something and not just numbers that kiss your posterior. The average price hardly reflects what the market looks like. Maybe you should start tracking the length of time that plots are on the market too.

    Try shopping for land like a resident, not off a spreadsheet. There are bargains to be had unlike those in the last two-three years. Why? Confidence in the platform is down. The adfarm problem continues without significant enforcement, leaving no guarantee that the land people buy is going to keep the nice view.

    3. Zee made it clear that you don’t really care too much about premium residents, **the only people that are eligible to buy mainland.** LL has focused on the estates; what did you think would happen with mainland when you lose thousands of premiums? The map is oozing yellow and many people are looking to cash out. If you don’t add value to being premium or add value to mainland through enforcement of the adfarm policy to spur growth of premiums, you won’t be selling any or many mainland sims in the future, not without changing your mainland business model.

    4. Tier is a big showstopper for many. A modest decrease or more granularity in the model may result in greater rewards from the few people who actually care to hold mainland. Tier shouldn’t have to double every time you want to buy greater than a certain amount of land.

    If you put yourselves in the shoes of the people who care enough to pay for these things, you might get a better perspective as to why the market behaves as it does and how to stimulate it.

  107. Argent Stonecutter says:

    I think one of the problems here is that the metrics that people are pointing to that show a L$2.5/m figure are almost certainly mixing estate and mainland sales. The price of estate land is irrelevant… a huge percentage of estate land is “sold” for first month’s rent or a token price only, and isn’t sold resident-to-resident. It isn’t the same kind of market at all.

    So Linden Labs really needs to only include mainland land prices in their metrics page. Until they do, the figures they provide for land price on that page are meaningless.

    Curtis@106: I didn’t mean that Opensim is irrelevant, I meant that it’s not providing a different environment from Second Life, it’s not showing Linden Labs how they can change Second Life to make it more popular. That’s not to say that LL may not have to respond to it, but it’s a follower rather than a leader. Think Microsoft and the Wine project.

  108. Sue Saintlouis says:

    I agree, tier costs are way too high, especially on private estates, and especially since land values have dropped to almost nothing.

    Like someone else said, why would anyone want to buy on the laggy mainlands is beyond me! Lag, no estate tools, iffy customer support… oh yeah, such a choice when I can have an estate owner who will answer promptly to a simple IM request!

  109. Cudaboy Lockjaw says:

    Heres what I don’t understand with all this land pricing hoopla. People are abandoning land, islands etc cause of the teir and they cannot afford to support the pricing. Like what was mentioned in an earlier post a 16sqm going for 10k yet a 512 lot can be gotten for 2k. I see add farms in the future going crazy because of it.
    Yay they are holding off adding regons for 2 weeks. That really isnt going to do much to help the average person. It will hurt the who ya knows though cause it will keep them from buying a full main land sim for little of nothing. Plus have you ever seen a full sim in the land auction bin. Since being here ive only seen one.
    Have you ever tried to purchase an entire main land sim, I have sent in requests through support and always get told it will be listed in the land store yet it never shows up. So I watched one sim like a hawk, sure enough it got sold and never made the auction. (guess its all in who ya klow)
    So if any lindens are reading this its time to maby look outside of the box a little and pay amage to the people who keep SL alive. Its not the tech dept that does its the users and their influx of $. If a person cant afford to stay a land owner ,they wont and LL wont see any teir money.
    If you really want to sell land cut the monthly fees in 1/2 for land owners who hold 1/2 sim or more. Then you will see a market increase in larger lot sales. Any and all land purchases are spur of the moment deals for 90% of the buyers. If a buyer sees they can get 1/2 sim for the same monthly cost as a 1/4 sim they will buy a bigger sim. Its human nature, and for those who dont want a bigger lot LL will still make the same $ they are now.

  110. Ann Otoole says:

    Make it worthwhile to be a premium account by allowing Premium accounts to buy open space sims without having to own a full sim. We would like to have secure sims for private gatherings and secure workshop space. The only security privacy in Secondlife is in a closed access island that is not adjacent to any other islands. Then there will be only one way designs not seen anywhere get stolen before release–via unauthorized database access. And that is not bloody likely is it. Not impossible (even the NSA has security issues from time to time) but not likely at all.

    Yes let Premium accounts buy one open space sim for personal use without having to buy a full scale sim.

  111. Ciaran Laval says:

    The reason for the discrepancy in average price between the metrics and this blog is because Jack is talking only about mainland sales, whereas the metrics include estate sales too.

    This is an emerging platform with nowhere near enough history for people to be able to ascertain what is a fair price for land. One thing that should have been made abundantly clear from the estate price drop is that it is not an investment, it will only decrease further. You need to look at a return of investment without considering the resell price. Estate prices will go lower.

    The real issue of course is total cost of ownership, this is why even with mainland prices low, there hasn’t been a great land rush. Premiums are down, tier hasn’t changed and there’s no indication it will.

    As for open spaces, they are being used for purposes other than those intended. Hence why someone above was saying Linden Lab won’t provide full support if you’re living on one. Of course it’s plain to everyone that the boom in Openspaces hasn’t been for light use and increased waterways, people are using openspaces for everything from clubs to homes and with the money rolling in, people are turning a blind eye to their supposed use.

  112. Kate Welsh says:

    I’ve wanted to buy and own land since I joined SL. Unlike many of the folks here whose business and SL income come from it, I just want a private plot of land to play with, terraform at will, build, and teach myself about the real wonders of SL and the limitless opportunities for creativity. This isn’t an editorial on SL land business — just how I wanted to use my land.

    I’ll probably never own any, and the reason is the tier. Tier prices are simply onerous for the casual user, and in these times, SL land is the ultimate in discretionary income. I work for the company that supplies those servers, and I know how much they cost to buy, run, and maintain. Please cut your users a break. Otherwise, you’ll see a slow migration away from SL toward more reasonably-priced worlds when the open model comes into common usage.

  113. 7.25 $L per sq\m is a VERY intresting number. Can we(SL residents) see some of the data\numbers you used to arrive at this figure of 7.25$L per SQ\M of mainland? Just a small observation here from a dumb blonde bimbo but uh, I see more mainland being sold for far less then 7.25$L and hardly any being sold for more then 7.25$L So to arrive at that speciffic number i am intrested to see the data.

  114. @Ann – allowing any premium to buy an openspace sim doesn’t help mainland at all, and probably would end most mainland sales. They can make more money per sqm off mainland **if they do it right.** But mainland needs to be an attractive, viable option. And by that, I mean, not just Bay City, but care to ALL the continents.

  115. Elyzabel Whitfield says:

    Who cares if land is now worth less than it was? Do I have any sympathy for those bleating that they make a loss rather than a profit selling it? No.
    Linden Lab does not owe the SL users the guarantee of a profit from buying and selling land. If you buy land, use if for something creative. Don’t buy it just to sell it for a buck or you deserve to make a loss.

  116. Duckling Kwak says:

    @106 – Yes, very telling, indeed, that people aren’t all over this posting. LL has mismanaged the land market too many times, and people are simply burnt out; that’s the bottom line.

    @112 – I’ve had similar thoughts. When you add cross-virtual worlds access (as recently announced), the whole proposition to stay in SL becomes increasingly questionable. Why continue paying (outrageous) tier fees? Why not run our own SIMs or pay for access through cheaper providers as soon as cross-virtual worlds communications mature enough?

    The land market is a cash cow that has been milked pretty dry. I hope LL has a good strategy to give us reasons to stay; the privilege to pay outrageous tier prices, uh, just doesn’t cut it. After getting burnt out too many times, there’s really little incentive to continue investing in SL. It hurts me to say that, but it’s the end result of a very poorly managed strategy, of which land market is one component.

    Make (land market) ADJUSTMENTS, sure, that’s reasonable, rational, realistic and even responsible. WHACK the market in the brutal way that has been done every single time? Uh, maybe the BDSM crowd enjoy that – maybe – but I’m unsure even they enjoy it. And investors certainly don’t care for that kind of abuse! Not smart to alienate investors…not smart…

    I sincerely hope I’m wrong with everything I’ve said. I’ve spent many hours in SL, and I like so many things about it. But if I’m right, the reality is that SL’s days as the virtual world leader are numbered. Time will tell – I hope I’m proven wrong.

    DK

  117. Matttt Li says:

    Thank you for continuing to avoid further flood of the market with land supply. The bottom is still dropped out of the private SIM market. I have not been able to purchase an additional SIM for the past 2 months. There way too much churn and not enough demand… people just bouncing around… chasing what they think are better deals offered by people who crash out in a few months because they have too much supply on hand.

  118. Alexander Regent says:

    I think the interesting thing here is it is a debate between two-sides of the same system, the consumer and the producer.

    Linden lab has basically set-up an artificial economy. Supply it too far one way, and one group suffers. Under supply it another way, and the other group suffers.

    Main land is just too crazy for me.

    I like my one sim. I’d consider buying more, but the current tier fee makes it cumbersome and certain to lose money.

    My guess is this fee was raised to slow down sales in “the old days” of 2006, and now the upfront price has been lowered to entice new users to purchase private sims.

    I must admit, being a purchaser of a private sim, I WOULD like to see the monthly tier go down since business models for moderate use residential sims would make sense again.

  119. #34, Yes $150 to move an open space but also additional $50 to rename!

  120. Cudaboy Lockjaw says:

    ” Elyzabel Whitfield “”Don’t buy it just to sell it for a buck or you deserve to make a loss.” (I agree with you but need to clairfy)

    Alot of us land owners are NOT trying to make a buck on what we own. We are trying not to loose our butts on what we purchased the land for. Land real or virtual doesnt wear out like a car or a fad in clothing. If it did then a depreciation or loss is and would be expected. Its the plain simple fact that alot of us spent quite a few hundred US $’s on land then continue to pay high teir’s every month. (land is for personal use, building creating etc)
    If it was like a reg video game you paid your purchase price and have a nice day thats one thing. But you keep paying and paying. So you decide to get out and say enough is enough. But guess what that 100k lindens you spent on your land is now only worth 20k. So you now have 2 choices if you want out. First just give the land back to LL.
    Or second set it for sale for next to nothing just to try and recoupe a not even 1/4 of your inital expence.
    One of the main reasons the land crashed in price is because of the added sim space that in all reality is not needed. Another reason is openspaces and a final reason if the price cut on an island. For a person comming in sl now yes its a great time to buy. Land is cheap and gonna fall lower. (but I can almost guarantee they wont be buying main land, private land is so cheap. Like 1 linden for a 4096 lot and the monthly teir is competitive with what LL charges, have many notecards with the pricing on it)
    The peeps who have the expendiable cash will be gobbling up what they can and then when the market turns they will jack the prices and only 2 outcomes can happen.
    Either they will loose their investments or the land prices will skyrocket. (hate land tycoons)
    Then second, just like Rl he who has the most money makes more money and everyone else gets screwed.

  121. Darien Caldwell says:

    @98, Key Metrics:

    Active Users July ‘07: 561,485
    Active Users May ‘08: 532,606
    Drop of 5.14%

    Land Size July ‘07: 779.95km2
    Land Size May ‘08: 1,429.65km2
    Increase of 83.3%

    Users per sim July ‘07: 47.17
    Users per sim May ‘08: 24.41

    (Active Users/(Land Size*1,000,000/65536))

    —————————-

    The figure on land is actually encouraging. 47 people per sim is obviously showing overcrowding, as most sims are capped at 40 people per sim. 24 per sim is a better figure, with each sim at around half capacity.

    Certainly shows the increased land was needed, and not in excess.

  122. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @115 Whether you have sympathy or not is not the point, what is the point is that your second life relies on the land being provided by Landowners, who rent to stores, who build your sparklies, which drive the economy, such as it is. If landowners did not profit then there would be no way for them to recover their initial investment in the land. If landowners cannot recover that “investment” over time then there would be no land for your favorite builder to build on. WHether that landlord is LL, or someone like me. So put us all out of business as you like, and then learn to build your sparklies on your 512k plot, because the stores will go away as well 🙂

  123. Too Bad says:

    It’s a pity that LL ignores all of these posts… I see a lot of the same people saying a lot of the same things every time we get a chance to post replys to land sale updates….

    It appears that instead of facing a very important issue, they would rather ignore it and cover their ears… This shows that they are overwhelmed and intimidated, they probaby don’t even know what to do from here. But if they’d just listen to a lot of you residents, I believe that things could get better…

    For one thing, in order to make the ratio between users and sims better, a good solution would be to:

    1. Stop selling sims completely for a temporary basis (one month minimum)

    2. CLEAN UP EXISTING TRASH/UNWANTED SIMS: Offer current sim owners a percentage of their original island price if they wish to abandon land. This would make existing islands easier to sell or get rid of. I’m not no expert on how to go about doing this but there has to be some way to rid of some extra sims that sim owners don’t want. i.e. the ones going broke from keeping their sim.

    3. Lower the tier, but NOT the island price. If you lowered the island price (at this time in our economy) we would have far too many sims once again. Lowering the island tier to $199 would be a great start like MANY OTHERS have mentioned above.

    4. Realize, LL will not be the only virtual world owner… Of course OpenSim is around but since LL is now trying to allow us to tp to OpenSim sims, it seems the currency must be L$ for both. Thus, it is just an extention of SL. What’s the point of that?

    5. Someday a whole new virtual world will open up, mainly because of the popularity of SL and seeing how they are doingj things wrong with the prices, and whoever creates it will be able to see first hand all the issues that are facing residents here, giving them a nice fresh start. THINK ABOUT IT LINDENS.

    \m/ Anonymous \m/

  124. @Darien: What is the optimal number, then? Since estates can handle 100 avs and estates represent 80% of the land mass, I think 47 is far from overcrowding.

  125. Too Bad says:

    OH ALSO, Why worry about Mainland supply, when a LOT of residents are buying estate/private regions.

    LIMITING THOSE is what we need to do… There are literally thousands of malls, clubs, and copys of other business here on SL, often the most I see when I TP somewhere is mostly bots, and maybe a newer resident if I’m lucky, except the select few successfull sims.

    Too much trash on SL, let’s clean it up! *puts gloves on* *puts another set of gloves over those… it’s going to be a dirty job*

  126. Nibb Tardis says:

    20000 sims. 60000 users online max. That’s 12 users per server at max concurrency.

    A good proportion of those 4000 servers are running with no users on them most of the time.

  127. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Joshe@122: I didn’t own any land and built all my sparklies in sandboxes for months, until I got talked into upgrading to premium to get my first land, which I still have… along with the first lands of a couple dozen of my friends that we all pooled together into a just-for-fun build that has more or less assimilated most of the rest of the sim over the following months.

    We’ve mostly avoided buying land during the booms. We sure couldn’t have afforded it at L$20 per square meter. Some of my friends bought land at the peaks, despite the land price being ridiculously over-inflated, but mostly we just rode them out and bought when it was cheap. I’m sorry for the people who didn’t realize that land in SL is not like land in RL… they really ARE making more of it… and an average price of two digits per square meter was unsustainable. But it really isn’t Linden Labs fault that you bought during a bubble.

    Kate, and others who see land as too expensive, get together with some friends and form a land group, and work on it together.

    Premium account, annual fee, US$72.
    Stipend, L$300 a week, US$57/year.
    Difference: $15/year, for 512 square meters.
    Join a group, put your land in the group, you get a 10% tier bonus, or 560 square meters per person.

    I’m currently paying for extra tier, but most of the tierholders in our group are just donating their premium bonus. It works out pretty well.

  128. Aquarius Paravane says:

    Average land price is not a good measure because I suspect land prices do not have a gaussian distribution. There may be a long tail at the upper end but not at the lower end. There is a rock bottom mainland price, and that’s the number to keep your eye on, by searching for a given plot size ordered by price. Before the 10 new sims a day announcement it was about L$8.7 / sqm, for the past few days it has held steady at 4.0 to 4.1, today it is way down again to L$3.7 per sqm – about where it got to when the land supply was turned off.

  129. Phil Deakins says:

    @121 (Darien)

    I don’t know if you typed those metrics and left a bit out or not, but if you didn’t leave anything out, there’s something that wasn’t noticed in them. The first set are “active users”, but the third set are just users – not necessarily active ones.

    I don’t agree that the figures show that more land was needed. Almost all sims are either empty or almost empty at any time of day or night, and they were that way before the recent additions of mainland sims – and as far back as I can remember.

  130. Arabella Nemeth says:

    From looking around the mainland area that I own (about 3/4 of a sim), the average asking price of land is highly inflated by the ad farmers (about $L 30 / sq meter). LL needs to realize that their land price statistics do NOT reflect the accurate price of non-extortion land.

    I have reported these ad farmers to LL and only 1 of 3 was dealt with and that one had mature content on the PG sim. The other two continue to have twirling signs and outrageous prices.

    I support the idea that land should not be allowed to be sold under 512 sq. m.; although a land holder should be allowed to subdivide for their own purposes, i.e. control of audio or video stream or box-rezzing spaces for stores. This simple change would greatly reduce the number of ad-farms

    Another reason not to buy mainland property is the bots that are used in the auctions. If you are bidding for a plot next to your own large area, the land baron/ad farmers will swoop in at the end of the auction and purchase it. You can’t react fast enough as a human being.. I know, I tried. And then you get the note from the ad farmer saying that you really should consider buying the land they just got next to your beautiful garden, as they have progressive plans for their parcels (read that as the threat that it is!).

    Until LL starts to deal with the obvious abuses and extortions in the land system AND starts to value the content creators in SL, SL will continue to slide in interest for everyone. SL really was a wonderful place with incredible content imagined and created by its resident, but that is slipping away. To me, the incredible content is what is unique for SL, that gives it the barrier to entry for its competition. LL needs to wake up and realize that and protect and nurture it.

    I urge Linden Labs to continue their moratorium on new land sales and also to look at the underlying problems with the current land system.

  131. I think it is a naive expectation for mainland to sell when the amount of premium members are falling. You want less people to hold more land. There are limits of doing that, thanks to the tier structure.

    Can you not see that tier is the problem and needs some revisiting? A wholesale refusal to revise the tier structure will leave us where we are today with mainland, because premium numbers are going down, not up.

    Even privately held land has limits, as is being seen in the consolidation of estates and unloading of estate land between residents.

    The grid is expanding wildly without a corresponding increase in population. People are wondering where all the humans are.

    But I don’t blame people for not buying. It’s an expensive risk of losing all your stuff.

  132. @121 – If SL actually had over 500,000 concurrent users, than your conclusion of needing more land might not sound absurd. But since concurrency runs around 50,000, than it’s more like 3 users per sim at any given time and it’s likely that 2 of those 3 are bots.

    @107 – Don’t know how can many any firm assessment of what the stats include or don’t include. The blog entry states, “the price is now holding steady at an average of L$7.25.” It does not state average price PAID as it does on the stats page. Is the L$7.25 figure the average price realized in sales or just the average asking price? Also, if the stats page mixes mainland and estate sales as you claim, than it’s a completely bogus stat (mixing apples and oranges) and it should appropriately divided to show the true numbers.

  133. Bobo Decosta says:

    Looks like I made a good move by dropping about before the price drop on regions. Never understood why they didn’t lower the tier instead. I decided now to also take out all my money I earned as it doesn’t seem that LL will lower the tier soon, so there isn’t even a reason to keep my profits locked up in SL.

  134. ~ Linden Love ~ says:

    @123 – I agree
    @134 We will see what we can do 😉
    @ all: Enjoy Second Life! Weeeee!

    My heart goes out to those who have lost money on SL Hopefully the new changes that will come out will resolve some of these issues.

    Take care!

  135. Mojo Mathys says:

    Awesome! I tried 3 times to post and it will not allow me! I guess that says it all now doesn’t it?

  136. Lionheart says:

    i’m curious as to how many complaining here are land barrons & how many are small private people, i search land on a regular basis, and usually the best i can find main land is 5,000 for a 512, and that’s usually after hours of scouring the grid, for a small person like me it’s alot of money to try and come up with when you need a large section of land. and it’s been the same for the past 6 months at least. so this constant talk about falling land prices, if you ask me it’s total bupkiss, i have yet to see prices fall for a decent piece of land. and if any thing i tend to see an increase in the price.
    and as far as calculating land per av, not sure how they could actually do that, i know of a few people that log in with 4-5 different av’s a day, some with 2 at the same time.
    if i was to see an actuall drop in main land pricing, & tiers in a range the average person can afford that would be a nice change. Paying tiers directly to LL would be a lot better for me than to pay for land on a private sim.

  137. Darien Caldwell says:

    @124,
    Do you really want to be in a sim that has 100 avatars in it? 🙂

    I think most sims operate ‘comfortably’ at 20-30 avatars. But that is subjective.

    @130, Irrespective of how many people are on, and how empty the sims are at any given time, is the fact that a good number own or rent land. A good metric would be the average plot size owned by an AV. I have had tenants that rented full sims, and some that rented 512m plots. If there are an average of 24 avs per sim, thats pretty crowded as it is, even if only 1/2 of them own land on average.

    Lest say 8192 is the average plot size. 12 people owning 8192s per sim, would still be more land than what is available in that sim. yes, I think i want to see average plot size owned. It would be most telling.

  138. Argent Stonecutter says:

    MarkByron@133: I don’t *know* that those are mixed island and mainland figures, but I haven’t seen even *low end* mainland prices at L$3/m since the end of the first bubble… let alone the average.

  139. #137, As I write this, there are nearly 100 512 sqm plots below 4L per sqm (approx 2000L). Goto the Edit Menu, Land Sales tab, and select ‘For Sale – Mainland’ from the drop down menu and enter 512 sqm and 2100L. If you pay 5000L for 512, don’t forget the Kool-Aid.

  140. Praetor Janus says:

    95% of Second Life looks like a surrealistic, Ad-filthy graveyard at midnight!

    Second Life is dying, haven’t you noticed?

  141. Casandra Streeter says:

    The shareholders are the residents of SL.And LL it seems wants to make profit only for themselves and not care about those that have invested in sl by purchasing land.I am fortunate that I waited to purchase my island sim at the new pricing,but think that you did not do any justice to those that purchased at the old rate. LL as far as I am concerned cut these investors throats by doing that. And now land sales are waaaaaay down and these investors are abandoning their land.I see a major decline in residents logging in in the near future. I am sure also that if there were a viable alternative to sl you will see it decline even further.LL had better wake up to the fact that we are investors and if investors are NOT getting return for thier dollar they will invest elsewhere.
    I have read 123 postings on this subject and most are trying to tell you what they are thinking and I have not seen a single response from LL. Maybe because they know we are right and they can’t admit it.

  142. depp says:

    anyway, whenever you add mainland, its contraproductive to your sim-sales.
    where are all the new land renters?

  143. depp says:

    ..oh..and btw….just ask some bot seller how whose busines runs…i guess, there are more bots online as you might expect…;)

  144. Ciaran Laval says:

    @137 the land search is poor to be honest but you will find a nice 512M plot for less than L$5000, however you never know when the 16M extortionists will move in, place their banlines, set the parcel for sale for L$9999 for a 16M parcel and degrade the area.

    However even at L$5000 that’s it for as long as you are a premium member, total cost of ownership isn’t really that high, I know the first L$5000 may seem steep but long term that’s worth it.

  145. Alisha says:

    where are all the new land renters?

    Waiting for their confirmation emails! I have now seen 3 such complaints in a months span. This worries me as I am guessing 90+% of those failures fail silently…

    ontopic: Holding mainland supply for a few weeks is not going to make much of a difference.
    You have made Millions in the last few months selling at your new price, and in turn increased your tier collection by a million or two. To bad it left anyone who bought before the price change feeling poor…..

    /semi-rant off

  146. Roken Price says:

    Well – as someone looking to buy a private sim – I have to say “not yet”. I own land on the mainland, and a private sim. However, My private sim land is now up for sale, since the sim owner has closed 5 out of 8 of his sims without warning. My next purchase will be mainland, simply to safeguard my investment.

    If LL want to keep investors in SL, they need to do three things:
    i. Lower tier on private land
    ii. Make private sims attractive (they can start by not overloading servers)
    iii. Offer some protection to land (rather than sim) owners.

    Maybe then, I’ll dig and buy the private sim, with a money back guarantee to land owners who buy there.

  147. sirhc DeSantis says:

    OK I have made som cash over the last year speculating on land. Now the market is down. So I am sitting on it and allowing friends to use it for free. Its called a market. ok its artificial but so what? Oh yeah and i still maintain my non profit garden. Whats the problem?

  148. No more land! The mainland is yellow and everyone complains of going broke – uh oh!

  149. Joshe Darkstone says:

    @Argent, It is isnt LLs fault that I bought in a bubble, what is LL’s doing is the artificlal manipulation of the economy to line their coffers at the expense of their residents. The steps they took, in the order they took them, were all about squeezing as much out of the residents as they could. A fairminded business plan that encourages people to “support the community” does not then look for ways, one after the other ad nauseum, to get the residents to empty their pockets for them. Its called fleecing, its at least nefarious, and while it hasnt yet been tested in court, it may be illegal. The TOS says the money here isnt real, some $20000 of my real dollars have gone into this however and im afraid they might be in for a surprise someday when the courts don’t agree with them.

    Im doing fine, I make a good living in sl, that doesn’t mean i shouldnt put my .02 cents in when I see the powers that be doing things that would earn them a punch in the nose on the street corner.

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