It’s Official, we will Not be Supporting OS 10.3 “Panther” after Today

Back in early May, we blogged to let you know that we were seriously considering whether Linden Lab should continue supporting Mac OS X 10.3, “Panther,” which was first released by Apple back in 2003.

As we wrote then, our tracking shows that very few of you, about 1/4 of 1 percent of all of you, the entire base of Residents, are still using Apple’s Mac OS X 10.3 when logging into Second Life.

The vast majority of responses from you confirmed that you agree, it makes sense to free up the Linden engineers from working to support an operating system used by so few Residents, and instead we should let them move on to other work which will benefit a much larger group.

We wanted to make sure there was plenty of time for the news to spread, and now, a little over two months later, it’s time to actually cease support of this relatively little-used OS.

What does it mean to “stop support”? Basically, it means we stop new development for the SDK (software development kit ) of that operating system, and also stop doing QA testing on OS 10.3.9.

What will you notice? If you are one of the few logging in with Panther, OS 10.3.9, you can still do so today, even though we are officially now not supporting it — and that may be true for some time.

Exactly how long we can’t guarantee, because Linden engineers will no longer be testing to make sure that new releases will work with Panther (OS 10.3.) So, eventually, there may be a time when some new element will interfere significantly enough to result in folks who will not be able to log in with OS 10.3 on their hardware. At that time such folks would need to upgrade their OS in order to do so.

What if you plan to keep using OS 10.3? We will continue to support the 1.19.4 viewer, which does work with Panther, (OS 10.3.9), and we will do our best to give reasonable notice before we stop supporting 1.19.4. So to be clear, stick with that viewer if you don’t plan to upgrade from Panther. Residents still using OS 10.3 will be able to log in to SL with Panther, 10.3.9, using the 1.19.4 viewer, they will just not be able to update to new Second Life versions, as new versions of the viewer which will continue to be released with improved stability and additional features will not support OS 10.3.

Please be careful to note, as we blogged yesterday, that the most recent optional Release Candidate will not run on a PowerPC running OS 10.3.9:

IMPORTANT: Known Issues with RC14

At this time we’re not considering dropping any other operating system.

Our general approach to supporting older releases of operating systems on any platform is to fully support the current and most recent OS for each platform. For example, we will actively support both Vista and Windows XP until such time as Vista is replaced with Microsoft’s next major operating system release. Similarly, we all support the most recent releases of Mac OS 10.5 and 10.4. Again, in all cases, we will attempt to provide at least 60 days notice prior to dropping formal support for any operating system, as we did in this case.

I’ll note that I personally run Second Life on one of two MacBook Pro laptops, one running Tiger (OS 10.4,) and one running Leopard (OS 10.5.4.)

[To briefly recap the history of the last five years of Mac OS: Panther, OS 10.3, was first released in October 2003, and updated to 10.3.9 in 2005. Apple has followed Panther with two more recent versions of the Apple OS, “Tiger” (OS 10.4,) released in April 2005 and “Leopard,” (OS 10.5.4,) released in October 2007 and most recently updated in June 2008.]

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Mac OS, New Releases, Resident Experience, vista, Windows OS. Bookmark the permalink.

127 Responses to It’s Official, we will Not be Supporting OS 10.3 “Panther” after Today

  1. Tarran Aeon says:

    Yay down with MAC

  2. Pingback: Massively.com SL news

  3. Ric Mollor says:

    —————–Quoting————-
    Again, in all cases, we will attempt to provide at least 60 days notice prior to dropping formal support for any operating system, as we did in this case.
    —————————————

    Did I somehow miss it? On May 5th there was a blog post that LL was *considering* dropping support for 10.3 and wanted feedback from the user community.

    Was an official announcement that support *was* going to be dropped made 60 days ago? If so, could someone please provide a URL.

  4. Yrol Xingjian says:

    oh, grow up, boy

  5. Yrol Xingjian says:

    °sighs° that was pointed at #1
    °growls at fast growing comments°

  6. Yrol Xingjian says:

    oh, and can someone of you at the lab maybe consider also prohibiting those unneeded bot-comments? ( referring to #2 )

  7. ac14 Hutson says:

    Less work for the viewer team. 😀

  8. Tateru Nino says:

    @6: That was manual labor, actually. Not automated.

  9. Katt Linden says:

    @6 and @, Tateru,

    You’re fast Tateru, but I knew it wasn’t automated, your post at Massively was a good summary of the key elements — clear thinking especially appreciated after I wrote out the long version in the post above, with all the lengthy details.

  10. Katt Linden says:

    @3, Ric, I’d appreciate it if you’d take that first post as notice! Thank you!

    – Katt

  11. brinda allen says:

    A time for all things

  12. Medhue Simoni says:

    this is a bit disturbing tho, Im already stuck using the 1.19.0.5 cause nothing else works right for my laptop. Just wondering how long b4 part of my system is no longer supported. BTW, i just bought the laptop last year and paid almost 1000 for it. Sounds to me that soon enough, more and more of us will be phased out. Like i said, i have to use an older viewer cause the graphics on the new viewer has a major bug related to bump mapping, which renders the viewer unusable. Unless i want to not see the shininess on things. I make stuff tho so that is not an option.

  13. magnus says:

    #12, you paid $1000 for a mac laptop with a 5 year old operating system on it? You could have easily found something with 10.4 on it for the same price or less and 10.4 runs the new RC just fine. You bought yourself a door stop or a paperweight. No offense.

  14. Zulqadi Saarinen says:

    OK, fine! I hope the freed up resources will be reallocated to support mac issues of the supported OS X versions. That would at least be fair. Especially, long standing movie making problem in SL on a mac viewer.

    lest LL should forget, let me remind Mac is future; and that future is now already in movie making, photography, music, multimedia and other creative fields would soon be waking up to Mac. It deserves attention.

  15. Medhue Simoni says:

    no magnus, i didnt say that. Its a sony vaio, with vista on it. Just didnt realize that graphics cards are not really replacable on laptops unless u spend over 1500. Windlight is a major problem on my system now. B4 windlight, i could turn most of the settings way up. Even runs Hitman (blood money) with np. Just sl that my laptop has a problem with. Actually, the problem is fixable, but i guess not enough people have the same problem. So, Im sol. And yes i have an issue for it. Looks like LL gave up on it tho.

  16. Crocodile says:

    And on this corner, WindowsXP, released in 2001, still supported. XD

    Take that, Steve Jobs. 😉

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  18. Ryu Darragh says:

    That’s what reproducible bugs are about, Medhue. Even with the vaunted Mac, *every* system is unique and there’d have to be many times more Dev Team than residents in SL to debug them all. I help many get their “obsolete” systems up to snuff and able to use SL, despite it all, but it does get harder as OSes keep getting replaced. All you can do is explore new avenues to keep your system up to date. Problem is, unless you are doing word processing and e-mail, every new app makes old machines more and more obsolete. There isn’t all there, Lively isn’t all that lively and even OpenSL isn;t all that open if you’re hardware can’t handle SL.

    Don’t give up hope.

  19. Well I’m on a normal MacBook Laptop with Leopard installed on it, I may have to have the ‘Graphics’ set a bit lower for ‘Lag’ reasons, but works fine!(touches wood)lol. I’m Happy that Second Life/Lindens still supports this, and to me their doing a fine job.
    Keep up the good work!

  20. Ryu Darragh says:

    LOL, Crocodile.. that’s because the best Microsoft could come up with was an ill-planned version called Vista while the mac has had oodles more updates 😛 Meh,.. updated hardware or OS.. Mac or PC. They all have their quirks 😛

  21. Crocodile says:

    Well, I have a Vista PC running Ultimate x64, and a Vista laptop with Home Premium x86, and SL runs like a charm on both. Those who diss Vista probably tried running it on 5-year old hardware and complain that it is useless. Same would be for a Mac. I bet running Leopard on a 5-year old iMac would not be optimal.

  22. Blinders Off says:

    If I may offer an alternative solution to folks too…

    These days you can purchase a reasonably nice desktop PC completely with monitor, significant hard drive and graphics card for around $500. I know that’s not a tiny chunk of money, but most working stiffs can come up with it, even if they have to finance it.

    I also realize it’s not a Mac, but I’ve known a number of people who purchased cheap PCs just to run a specific program they wanted to use that wasn’t available on a Mac. They had a Mac on one desk, the PC on another, and they did fine.

    So users of Macs that are so old your OS is being unsupported… a viable option is to buy a cheap PC. You can even buy used PCs that are in good condition, from those who are upgrading to power PCs. So there are available options that will still keep you online. Hope that helps some. Most folks don’t realize that a relatively inexpensive solution exists, but there it is. PC isn’t Mac, but it will run SL and keep you online.

  23. Blinders Off says:

    Oh and Crocodile, no offense, but no, most people who dis Vista are those in the industry who realize what a pile of manure it is. Now I am in full hopes that Vista II, whatever it may be, might fix some of the problems of Vista, but when you have corporate techsperts that are blasting Vista clear across the U.S…. there’s something wrong, and it’s more than just an old system. Twice I have given Vista a good chance, putting it on a brand new Quad-Core computer with a terrabyte hard drive and a killer graphics card. Both times, after 2-3 weeks I switched back to XP and heaved a sigh of relief. Ahhhh…

    I know there are die-hard Vista fanatics who will disagree and stomp and rant. But there are valid reasons that people don’t like Vista. And a whole lot of those people have killer computers and know exactly what they’re talking about. Vista just plain has problems that I expect it will take Microsoft several years to iron out.

  24. None of our machines have Panther running and so it has been for a very long time.

    We have 2 machines running SL on Leopard.

    One of these machines, a Mac Book Pro on nVidia 8600 GT 512MB, OS X 10.5.4, does not run SL reliably on RC 1.20.14.92115 because you have not been able to solve a freezing condition known as VWR-1715 albeit said condition is quite well documented and previously tagged as RESOLVED.

    RESOLVED is not quite the case according to a large pool of residents on specific hardware.

    VWR-1715 has been reintroduced with 1.20.14.92115 while being of very mild disturb on a previous release.

    We would love for the best of our clients and their business to see this problem resolved once and for all, with the help of the Apple DEV Group or otherwise have the affected hardware, namely the Apple Mac Book Pro, labelled clearly and unmistakably as UNSUPPORTED by Linden Lab.

  25. Gracie Foden says:

    From my understanding from a nearby Best Buy Geek Squad,, XP is no longer available for sale–but will still be supported for a while. If there are any left, grab quick.

    It would be great for improvements to be made for VISTA and have it function better and as a result have SL work better on it.

    Thank you Linden Lab for keeping VISTA and improving the functionability of SL on it. Good job 🙂

  26. Crocodile says:

    Blinders,

    That is strange, since my main PC is an Athlon64 X2 with a rather wimpy GeForce 7600GT, and Vista and my programs run great with it.

  27. Clang says:

    How about supporting 10.5.4 better. I’m sick of the graphics glitches and crashing. SL works 10000000 times better on 10.4.

  28. Phantom Ninetails says:

    I hope you will continue your support for Windows 2000 Professional (you forgot to mention this, it’s not just Vista and XP you support, but 2000 as well) for as long as possible, as I am planning to stay on it until 2010 at which point Microsoft will no longer provide security updates for it, and at which point I will be switching to Linux.

    Windows 2000 is not a difficult operating system to support when you still support XP, as they are very similar, except 2000 is less bloated.

  29. Missy Malaprop says:

    weird… SL runs great on my install of 10.5.4 ….. even better than 10.4 ever did

  30. richard says:

    i have a computer with a hand crank on the side will second life run on that?

  31. Prenn says:

    I’m kind of sad about this. I’ve only been playing for two days, on Panther, and now this… granted it’s pretty slow, and I have another computer I can use at hand…

  32. michi lumin says:

    I can’t believe there are still people saying, “Well, how come you still support XP then, huh? huh?”

    1). If you’re still using *10.3*, chances are _high_ that you’ve got a WHOLE lot of other compatibility problems going on than SL. OS X 10.3 has been old for a LONG TIME, and a lot of things won’t run on it anymore.

    2). Comparing 10.3 to XP as far as ‘longevity’ goes is not valid. It’s not like XP is at “XP 1.0.00” still. XP is on SP3 now, and OSX is on 10.5 now. Yeah, Apple takes a different approach to versioning and what upgrades they charge for.

    3). A major architectural overhaul happened along the way from 10.3 -> 10.5, and this is not the case with XP. Changing from PPC to X86 opens up an entirely new can of worms as far as development streams and compatibility goes. XP hasn’t had to endure this, so compatibility with the old systems are less of an issue.

    SL doesn’t support Win98, SL doesn’t support 10.3. A lot of upset people have had to upgrade from their GeForce MX200 with 32mb of VRAM in the past five years in SL, too.

    I don’t know how anyone can fault Linden for this. Yeah, you might have to shell out for a copy of Tiger or Leopard. But come on.

    Can anyone here actually state an actual *valid reason* as to why they’re still running 10.3? If you’re running hardware that can’t muscle 10.4, then I can’t imagine how you can even get around in SL.

    Dev teams have to dilute their resources less. It’s obvious that nursing 10.3 compatibility along has *hurt* the stability of the mac client.

    Chances are, freeing the devs from these constraints of “No, we can’t do that — it’d make things faster but it’d break 10.3 compatibility” will make for a much better mac client in the end.

  33. Blinders Off says:

    Hi Crocodile. Yeah, some folks like Vista. Depends on the person and their applications. If they’ve never used XP or XP Pro, chances are they won’t figure out the problems with Vista, cos they’re deep down. But for one thing, Vista gobbles more RAM, more hard drive space (significantly more) runs slower, and the permissions / security prompts are a pain. I’ve seen Vista block legitimate programs due to some supposed “copyright issue” (which was total bogus) and I’ve seen Vista refuse to run several major programs (including some belonging to Micro$oft itself). People new to computers probably won’t even notice, but I’ve spoken with several techs from major computer stores… and they absolutely hate working with it.

    Likely eventually Micro$oft will get the bugs ironed out, just as they did with XP. But until then, the sales records say that Vista has had poorer reception than any version of Windows to date, and the vast majority of corporations are sticking or even reverting to XP. In fact, several major computer manufacturers are still offering versions of XP to their corporate accounts. That should tell Micro$oft something. LOL. Maybe they’ll get their act together and fix it. I know for me, I get really tired of pressing 12 keys to run a simple Windows functions as opposed to the 2 or 3 I’d use in XP. I gave Vista a fair chance…. twice… and like the business world, switched back to XP.

    I’m not dissing Vista mind ya. I just don’t like it. And so far, every tech I’ve asked in every computer store I’ve visited has said the same thing. Resource hungry, excesively protective to the point of paranoia and user-unfriendly, and doesn’t do a single thing that XP can’t already do (at least, nothing that’s needed by the average user). In most folk’s mind, Vista was totally unnecessary. XP works just fine.

  34. TheTree says:

    @blinder: vista runs smoothly nowadays, and NOT slower. the security function aren’t a pain at all, they are there for security. running xp on a low rights account is more of a pain, running it on an adminstrator account gives you no security.

    almost every MS os needs about a year and one sp to run smoothly, as you said “just as they did with xp”.

    so stop dissing vista (you ARE).

    I run SL, blender, photoshop cs3 and a ton of other programs I need for SL. So from the SL user’s perspective there’s nothing bad about vista, really.

  35. Angsty Rossini says:

    I agree that plenty of notice and information was given by LL on the plans to drop support for Panther. Don’t forget – this was an OS for the PPC processor, not Intel, so we cannot compare like-for-like with other OSs. Besides, OS wars are silly and I hope we can move beyond that

    I sincerely hope that LL re-assign these freed up resources to other OSX issues that need attention.

    Looking forward to more 🙂

  36. Saiki Spirt says:

    quote:
    For example, we will actively support both Vista and Windows XP until such time as Vista is replaced with Microsoft’s next major operating system release.

    XP will always be a pinnacle of Windows, Vienna (windows 7) is a shot at remaking Vista, it is not a “new” operating system. Win7 will also not support backwards compatibility, so it will be like SL 1.0 all over again for Vienna. Itruely hope XP will be supported for almost forever, because I personally ill be continually using it for as long as I can. Vista is a joke of an os, and 7 will be no better.

  37. Saiki Spirt says:

    @34

    there are plenty of things wrong with Vista, and whoever made the comment about 5 yr old hardware. my PC is less than a year old and Vista has never run smooth, even AFTER SP1. Xp runs like a dream. oh.. and for the record:
    CPU: Intel Core Series Processor (1866 MHz)
    Memory: 1015 MB
    OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (Build 2600) / Vista SP1 (build ????)
    Graphics Card Vendor: Intel
    Graphics Card: Intel 945GM
    OpenGL Version: 1.4.0 – Build 7.14.10.4926
    LLMozLib Version: [LLMediaImplLLMozLib] – 2.01.16689 (Mozilla GRE version 1.8.1.13_0000000000)

  38. Monolith says:

    Well, personally I’m glad to see that Linden is shifting it’s focus when it comes to very old Operating systems. It’s true that supporting those can drain resources. Especially on a Mac, with the multitude of OS versions that’ve seen the light in the last few years.

    Where this is troubling is with Windows. We know that Microsoft won’t stop with Vista (can’t take any money from us if they don’t have a new, shiny OS for us to buy). But, what that also means is that the day is looming that XP itself stops becoming supported.

    For me, that day will mean SL will not work for me any longer. I already have daily problems, serious ones, with SL. I have an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, also a Radeon All-in-wonder 9800 pro. In an Athlon XP 2800 computer. Multiple gigs of ram. An with that, I still get some kind of strange freezing problem. Every roughly 30 to 90 seconds depending on surrounding enviroment, my client freezes.. as does the whole computer.. for a period sometimes up to 30 seconds long. It then unfreezes and operates normally until the next freeze.

    I’ve fought for a long time to figure out what’s to blame.. but I can’t yet. However.. this is all on a 1.19.1 release of SL! I don’t really have anywhere -to- go, as I’m sure the RC versions right now will make the problem worse.. as they usually do. So, while I’m not removed yet, I sit waiting to see how long I can be a member of an otherwise wonderful community, simply because of software errors and lack of support. 😛 I don’t care for new features, new devices.. any of that. I just want SL to Stop Freezing! If that could be overcome, I could care less -what- they did to the client. 😛

  39. Saiki Spirt says:

    @38

    There are plenty of reasons it could be, if you find me in world, with an email address, or a messenger addy I will gladly help you out as best I can. I know Windows XP inside and out, quite well. so I might be able to offer some assistance in that regard.

  40. Noisey Lane says:

    /me takes out her tiny violin and begins to play…
    “So long Panther!” (ya big pussy!)
    @38 My bet is the vast majority of residents are using XP followed closely by Vista then Mac then Linux, so I wouldn’t panic about LL dropping XP anytime soon.
    I suggest you check (a) your ISP connection (do you get timeouts on long downloads?) and (b) bring up TaskMan and check the memory usage of the SL client.
    @Blinders – I’m another XP to Vista and back to XP refugee. It’s not a perfect beast but it runs SL RC 20.14 like a dream. (I’ve been trying to crash it and I can’t!)
    /me plays a happy jig.

  41. Tegg B says:

    Zulqadi Saarinen Says: “lest LL should forget, let me remind Mac is future; and that future is now already in movie making, photography, music, multimedia and other creative fields would soon be waking up to Mac. It deserves attention.”

    Maybe it does deserve attention, but Panther is not the future 🙂

    Crocodile Says: “And on this corner, WindowsXP, released in 2001, still supported. XD Take that, Steve Jobs.”

    Well 2 latest versions of Windows supported and 2 latest versions of Mac supported, sounds fair to me 🙂

    Phantom Ninetails Says: “I hope you will continue your support for Windows 2000 Professional (you forgot to mention this, it’s not just Vista and XP you support, but 2000 as well) for as long as possible, as I am planning to stay on it until 2010 at which point Microsoft will no longer provide security updates for it, and at which point I will be switching to Linux. Windows 2000 is not a difficult operating system to support when you still support XP, as they are very similar, except 2000 is less bloated”

    Umm, hate to tell you but they announced they are no longer supporting Windows 2000 nearly 12 months ago. People running bot clients can still use it apparently, but they never see inside SL anyway.
    So you planning on still using a 10yo computer in 2010 too? 🙂

  42. Gully Miles says:

    Actually I think @3 has a point.

    Saying that you’re “considering dropping” an OS and would welcome user feedback is hardly the same as giving 60 days “formal notice”. In fact the title of this blog post begins “It’s Official…” which rather suggests that this is the first official announcement you’ve made about it, doesn’t it?

    Not that I use, or care much about, Panther. I do however care about the cavalier way that LL communicates things.

  43. Kara Spengler says:

    You had stated we would have 30 days (or was it 60, I need to reread the announcement before) notice from an announcement of dropping support to actually doing so and I was counting on that. Why the sudden change? My 10.3 machine is unable to be upgraded.

    Oh, and I know you do not care about premium account, but one guess which of my 2 machines my premium runs on?

  44. Wouldn’t it be far more profitable for Linden to support Xbox360 with the optional keyboard ?

  45. Alexia says:

    @ 10 ’10 Katt Linden Says:

    July 17th, 2008 at 6:29 PM
    @3, Ric, I’d appreciate it if you’d take that first post as notice! Thank you!

    – Katt

    since when has the word ‘considering’ meant ‘we are’??.. hmmm

    does your use of the word ‘appreciate’ mean ‘we make things up as we go along, you know this so stop taking us so literally!’

  46. Fox says:

    Lmao. So when were you going to work on stability and performance again?

  47. Dark Otsuzum says:

    @40

    Regarding memory usage under XP SP3:
    110Mb before login, bloats tp 500Kb+ after a few minutes online and goes on increasing. I know that a lot of that will be due to downloading world info, textures, etc., but I suspect there is still a memory leak somewhere.

  48. Vivienne says:

    @22

    “These days you can purchase a reasonably nice desktop PC completely with monitor, significant hard drive and graphics card for around $500.”

    500 Dollars for SL only? Only for logging in with a maximum performance of 15 fps (which 500 dollars will deliver)?

    This reminds me of some people lurking in the shasows of the red light district waiting desperately for the man to come…

  49. Shibari Twine says:

    Katt, I giess those with tiger can channel their old viewers and stay online,,,

    however to do you realise that those with channeled viewers and self-compiled viewers as well can’t see the status blog?

    It is hidden by the “You must upgrade” box.

    Bad web design. How about merging the blogs? You know, one for both statuis entries and announcements. All the news in one place would be so cool!

  50. Vivienne says:

    @35

    “I sincerely hope that LL re-assign these freed up resources to other OSX issues that need attention.”

    Exactly. There seem to be a lot of problems with the PPC and the 1.20 clients, especially Atmo Shaders and AA, which are not resolved, as well as with some intel powerbooks.

    Anyway, compared to the windoze platform coding something successfully for the Mac cannot be SUCH a task at all, once one has done the basics. There are only a few common hardware configurations in usage and neither ATI nor Nvidia altered the basical video drivers dramatically.

  51. Ron Crimson says:

    Um, Katt… run out of coffee lately? 😉 I believe you meant 1.19.1.4 when you kept writing 1.19.4 …. 😀

  52. Aya Pelous says:

    Its time to upgrade your machines if you haven’t second life users. No more using old systems that even Microsoft or Apple don’t support anymore.

    I am a xp/vista user on different computers both have the same memory in terms of graphics card and same ram. They both run smoothly and perfectly! I will be upgrading my XP to vista soon and will have no problems. If people stop buying the cheapest PC out there with Vista on it then they wouldn’t have any problem with using photoshop, second life, day to day applications. I sure don’t. You have to SEE what you actually purchase in terms of RAM space and graphics. You cannot run vista on a gig of ram. It is TOO slow, it should be at least 2 gigs and your graphics card should be at least 256 MB.

    Also @ 49 Linden lab put the grid status on a different place so they wouldn’t have to hear us wine about something going wrong with the grid

  53. Charlotte Bartlett says:

    Running Mac 10.4.11 on Mac Book Pro never had any issues tbh…. My newer Mac Book Pro eats SL, so it isn’t allowed to come out to play.

    Out of interest, none of these “other” new platforms popping up *coughs* Google even support or let Mac users near them – so hugs for Linden Lab.

  54. Gully Miles says:

    @49: I think they took the status updates out of the blog because they wanted it to be more upbeat. Firstly because the blog is the only form of web-based public dialog remaining, and moving the status issues out of the blog avoids having hundreds of negative blog comments about them. And secondly because media types and bloggers read it and link to stories in it via trackback. Lots of links to a negative status report in their blog about something being borked = high search engine ranking for the story = bad publicity.

    So a decision was made to separate out the news which LL would like people to talk about (the relentlessly Panglossian blog), and the news they’d rather they didn’t talk about (the status reports). The status reports got moved somewhere else where they can’t be commented on, or so easily linked to via Trackback etc — and they appear in small writing up in the corner of the main blog page, which of course makes them less bad 🙂

  55. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @32: I can’t believe there are still people saying, “Well, how come you still support XP then, huh? huh?”

    Um, probably because nobody is saying that. Most people here realize that, regardless of what Microsoft says, XP is still Windows users’ primary OS. Most of them have not switched to Vista, and many of those who have are quickly switching back after they discover that half their software no longer functions.

    The closest I’ve seen to your assertion is a joke about how long it took MS to come out with a new OS release and how they still managed to bork it. And that’s just stating facts, albeit with a little schadenfreude.

  56. Marcus Antonelli says:

    @12 I have the same issue. My 1 year old MacBook Pro has lots of problems with Windlight, and LL refuses to acknowledge this. They’ve bloated the graphics requirements past what these new machines can handle unless they’re parked. I just hope they don’t force us to leave 1.19.0.5

    Marcus

  57. Christi Maeterlinck says:

    Thanks for the care that went into this announcement: entirely reasonable, too.

    I just wish that the same amount of care and reasoning went into getting rid of the ‘freezing’ that happens every 15 minutes or so with the latest SL viewer running on the latest Mac OS, graphics driver upgrades downloaded, on the latest MacBook Pro. All control freezes for 20 seconds or so, and the Spinning Beachball of Death appears, showing that the OS is struggling to prevent a crash.

    So okay, under previous SL viewers SL would in fact crash. But it’s not much of an improvement if you’re doing sailing, combat, car-driving, or even ordinary movement within SL.

  58. Christi Maeterlinck says:

    And to Tarran Aeon, whose response no. 1 in this thread was ‘Yeay down with Mac’ I can smugly point out that on the Mac, even the error icons (e.g. ‘The Spinning Beachball of Death’) are attractive and lively. Back to your grey-suited PC, Tarran *grin*…

  59. Alex says:

    Well as a Panther user who can’t upgrade to a Higher OS because I’m on an older machine, I think this SUCKS. You’re basically telling me, “get a new computer or don’t use SL”. Yet another slap in the face from LL. Thanks.

  60. Alex says:

    And to the “Down with Mac” guy…How you enjoying all that spyware and viruses on your old PC? When’s the new OS that people will actually USE coming out? Wake up dude, it’s not the 90’s anymore. Macs are on the rise, PC’s are on the decline.

    PS: When will LL stop supporting Vista? Since so few PC owners actually use it. lol

  61. Better shift to a Mac then:

    51% unit growth year on year:
    http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/04/23results.html

    While Windows dropped 24%:
    http://www.computerwire.com/industries/research/?pid=EF8994D8-D4A3-46EA-918B-92FAAF485269

    But yes, get rid of that stupid Viewer Update window. There is no newer version apart from the RC, so you are blocking the Status Reports window.

    Or is this the new policy of smoke and mirrors at LL, to hide everything, like chopping out the user numbers from Key Metrics, so we can’t see how quickly SL is going down the pan because of focus on unwanted shinies instead of core functionality?

    All we get instead is land up 44%, rather than active users static for 14 months (actually not static, they have dropped).

    The Key Metrics used to be mentioned on the blog, now they are just pushed out quietly, because every month they are worse and worse. New Premium bonus is down to L$4 million from L$9 million a couple of months ago.

    Phil and M Linden should go back and look at the Open Letter from over a year ago, and see that despite promises to do something, not one item on the list has been fixed.

    All we get is more useless shinies, and a slower world that is borked more of the time. There are so many worlds coming online now, you probably have a maximum of 6 months to fix things before SL is in terminal decline. After all, users have not actually grown for over a year. Just land, which is what, L$2.5/m2?

    But I expect LL will continue ignoring everything as per usual. The Tao of Linden. lol. There’s a reason why everybody else does things differently boys, their way works, your way doesn’t.

  62. Lazuruswolf Writer says:

    Hey all just skimmed through the postings on here.

    Sorry but why are so many of you bashing Vista on here. You can turn UAC off on the control panel if it annoys you I can’t remember off hand but there is a way to do that. I am also sick of people saying it consumes more Ram and more resources and what ever else. That’s really hypocritical and also the other thing is everyone’s all up for XP well XP was just as buggy if not worse when it first came out.

    I have had Vista since Feb and it is Ultimate and my machine runs fine it’s never slow and the only issue that persistently is a let down is SL all my games run fine on here in fact everything I ever have had on here is okay. I just hate the way on which some of you attack Vista for faults in had when it came out originally and that is not fair when it has not had the time ie 7yrs or whatever it is like XP to mature and improve.

    I know Windows 7 is not that far off the agenda but it could be put back months even years if for once MS does not pander to the public needing the OS out with out it going through proper QC and making sure everything works properly. I hope MS makes people wait this time around and does not fall into the trap it did with Vista with Win7

    I also understand the need to remove the old OS’s so the engineers can work on the more current one’s if it is Mac or MS. I apologizes if the things said herein are off topic but I am sick of reading comments by the Anti-Vista crowd. Some of us like it and for some of us it has never been an issue in the first place. Give it a rest it’s pretty boring now!

  63. Marlena Petrov says:

    Oh Grow Up!! I am soo tired of the whining of the Mac?Widows people…
    you want to run the latest of every thing on one machine?? Fine up date your hardware..including your wireless and broadband speed.
    I run Vista Ultimate X64…not a bit of trouble but…I run it on high end hardware

    Intel quad Core Extreme
    dual Nvidia1 gig graphics cards in Sli\
    16 gigs pc 6400 ram
    1 gig NIC
    6 gps DSL
    so…..upgrade or hush!! Y’all still drive around in a ’28 Chevy and expect it to be the same as a 09 Lamborghini!!
    Snort!!!
    *slides out her claws for the attacks*
    *snicker*

  64. Yay down with Tarran Aeon.

    Pfft

    Thank you, Katt. I specifically noted this mention on yesterday’s announcement about the release candidate viewer and suspected this to be the case, and also why Linden Lab (wisely) has no intentions to make this new version a mandatory update.

    Thank you for your quick official clarification on this matter.
    Unlike the bonehea…er… ‘misinformed individual’ whose name I mention above, there are those of us who love both (and some all three) platforms and it is good to see Linden Lab stepping-up to deliver clear, concise communication with this regard.

    In truth, I am quite surprised any Macintosh that will run the Panther OS is powerful enough to run Second Life viewer and still have what I would personally consider an acceptable user experience.

    And if those machines are in-fact capable of running the viewer with an acceptable user experience, then they certainly are capable of utilizing the most current Leopard edition of OS-X, or at the very least: Tiger.

    Again, thank you for your clear announcement, and thank you Linden Lab for moving forward. And also for allowing the freedom of fools to open their mouths, removing all doubt as well. 😉

  65. Jahar Aabye says:

    I think that the important statistic that seems to be missed in most of these comments is the portion of the user-base who are connecting using this OS: 0.25%

    To figure out how many users might be online using this operating system at any given time, take the number of users currently online (visible in the login screen) and multiply by 0.0025. So right now, as I write this, I see 47,677 users online, of whom statistically speaking about 119 are likely to be using Mac OS 10.3.

    Now, mind you, those 119 people are able to connect to SL using the current client, 1.19.1.4. Linden Labs has said that even when 1.20 becomes the current version, 1.19.1.4 and 1.19.0.5 will continue to be supported for the near future. Currently 1.20 will not work with many systems that are running Mac OS 10.3.

    Should those other 47,568 people be forced to wait for Linden Labs to make 1.20 compatible for the remaining 119 people (and who knows how long that will take), thus pushing back considerably the upgrading of the Mono viewer from Beta to Release Candidate?

    The priority here ought to be very clear: If the Release Candidate viewer (1.20) being developed is compatible with the operating systems being used by 47,568 of the users currently online, and is not compatible with the operating system being used by 119 of the users currently online, then let’s move forward with it.

    The reason for posting this announcement now, I suspect, is related to the recent announcement that the latest iteration of the RC 1.20 viewer will likely be the final rollout before it becomes the current client. It is also probably a not-so-subtle hint that while 1.19 viewers will continue to be supported, there is no guarantee that this will last longer than 60 days.

  66. I’ve used my little iBook [panther] with SL. It is barely able to handle the SL. But, I also have an iMac with the big ram [tiger]and it runs like a champ. I am not a tech type. With new required updates, will the SL look at the OS or at my SL name? I would still like to use the iBook on ocassion. Can I have two SL operating systems under one logon name?

  67. Clin Seattle says:

    The reason they still support XP is because Vista sucks a big one.

  68. Toady Nakamura says:

    When I started playing SL, I was on an older Mac with the soon-to-be unsupported operating system. The world was a strange, slow, gray place.

    That was 2007 and I had bought the computer in 2002 when they first came out, so got a new Mac running Tiger and with a few crashes and the occasional annoyance, SL runs fine.

    In fact the new release candidate is the best SL experience I have had so far.

    I strongly disagree with #22 above; a $500 cheap Windows box is in no way a substitute for any Mac no matter how old.

    At present a very nice Mac starts around $1100 and will last the user five to seven years. Assume five, that’s $220 per year or **Less Than $1.00 per Day**!

    Pretty much figure out some way to earn $300 Linden every day and your computer will pay for itself!

    And no, #22, once you’ve gone to Mac, there is no turning back ! No crashes, no blue screen of death, no tech support, no hours and hours spent pulling out hair and gnashing teeth when all you wanted to do was print a file.

    I’m reminded of the old days when cars were new and bystanders told early automobilists “GET A HORSE,” without realizing how ridiculous they looked from the Driver’s Seat!

    Y’all have a nice day, huh? Play nice! Linden Lab does a lot of work so we can have fun and some people who post here don’t seem to give them credit for their efforts on our behalf. There is no incentive for Linden to fail, suggesting that some cabal exists to deprive us of our non-existent “rights” in this situation is simply ludicrous.

    If Second Life (may the gods forbid) declines or fails, some or all of the Lindens be out of a job. Where’s their incentive **not** to perform at peak?

    Again, thank you for all your hard work. Thank you for the increasing communication with the community and looking forward to even more of same in the future!

  69. mcp Moriarty says:

    It seems like a reasonable announcement. Other companies dropped Panther support long ago.

    Yes, I have a mac. Freeing up dev team members for other things sounds good to me!

  70. Ayumi says:

    good i dont have a mac, & for everyone that says vista sucks. it really doesnt if you have a high spec pc

  71. Blinders Off says:

    @ 34 TheTree… and other Vista supporters. Hey, as I said before, I’m glad you like Vista. Some people do. You have every right to say how great Vista is and you have every right to enjoy it. What you don’t have a right to do is tell other people they can’t voice their opinions on Vista. Freedom of speech and all that, y’know.

    In regard to the guy who said Vista uses the same amount of RAM and hard drive space as XP… LOL LOL LOL. Dude, been there, checked that, as has every tech magazine in the world. No matter what ya claim, Vista gobbles resources and it does not run as fast or smoothly as XP. You’re entitled to your personal opinion, but the benchmarks disagree.

    I appreciate hearing there’s a way to turn off the security issues on Vista. Not surprised to hear ya “can’t remember how it’s done”. After all, a security system that can be easily and arbitrarily turned off by the end user isn’t much of a security system, is it? Show me how to shut that puppy down, THEN we’ll talk, and I’ll even thank you. 😉

    And again TheTree, I and others aren’t “dissing” Vista. We’re stating facts. And the reason we’re stating those facts is in reply to those who say that eventually SL will cease support of XP. Yeah, maybe eventually. What, 5 years from now? There’s no evidence SL will even be around 5 years from now, so not really a valid issue there. Like someone stated above, regardless of the existence of Vista, XP is still the primary system of choice by most businesses and households in the U.S. Vista sales have been dismal. So trying to confuse the Mac OS issue (an ancient, outdated version) by bringing up XP really is just clouding the reason for LL’s decision.

    I use XP. Most businessmen I know still use XP. All the techs with whom I regularly do business still use XP. And that fact is so solid it’s been published in magazines. The computer community has not yet embraced Vista. Glad some of you think it’s hot stuff but tell ya what: it’s not a personal issue and ya don’t have to get on the bandwagon and rant at everyone who doesn’t like Vista… and you sure don’t have the right to tell us to shut up. ; ) If you like Vista, great. Have fun. Doesn’t alter the facts.

    No one intended this to turn into an XP vs Vista debate. All this is about is the simple bottom line issue: like it or not, XP is likely to be around for years. It’s functional, it’s mostly debugged, and again, most people are failing to see any real advantage in switching to Vista. So… in regard to Second Life… no, despite the alarmist posts, Linden Lab is not going to cease support of XP– at least not within the next half decade. ; )

  72. Hank Roar says:

    Well guys I love my Mac. But running SL on my MacBook pro is a pain with crashed and freeze outs – so I have switched to that ‘other’ system (yes even the V one) and whilst I hate to say it I have only crashed once in the last four weeks – tempting fate – but leaving the Mac – for more important… no sorry … more business related work.

  73. @65 Jahar thanks for posting the real numbers here. I was going to make the calculations myself so that people understand how ludicrous it is for LL to support Panther (I did also vote on their survey, eons ago, and naturally voted to release resources from the Panther-testing team to support the more recent upgrades).

    That will mean that my old 1996 Performa won’t be able to run SL any more. Ah well. I think I’ve lost that Mac anyway, I can’t find it at the office where I left it 😦

    On the other hand, very likely, 71% of all Windows SL residents are using Windows XP and will continue to do so.

  74. Also notice that at least according to MarketShare, after Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux, the major software platform out there to connect to the net is not any of the consoles, but the iPhone, and it outhines — by far! — any other PDA/Phone operating system 😉

    Guess where LL will put their resources next?… 😉

  75. mcp Moriarty says:

    No one I know in RL with a PC likes Vista, they revert back to XP if they can. The ones tooting the the Vista horn probably bought a PC with Vista pre-installed and the company that made the hardware don’t support installing XP. So they have to keep telling themselves, Vista is good. When in fact it’s not.

    My brother has this problem, bought a laptop, and if you remove Vista they won’t help you put XP on it. You are on your own. A lot of people are not tech savy enough or brave enough to put XP on it and lose the support. So they suffer through it, like my brother. If it was me I’d of promptly returned the machine and bought some other brand that supports XP.

  76. Phantom Ninetails says:

    @41, “blah blah Windows 2000 sucks and your computer is old”

    lol, another person who thinks the operating system determines the age of the computer itself. No. Just no. My computer is new, and I put Windows 2000 on it after buying it. The operating system does not determine the age of the computer itself. There is nothing wrong with this OS, either, it is a very capable OS (much like XP) and there is little to lose by supporting it.

    Also visit this page to have Linden Lab prove you wrong about whether or not they support it:
    http://secondlife.com/support/sysreqs.php

    If you care about my specs:
    Core 2 Duo E6550 (2.33 GHz)
    nVidia 7900 GTO
    2 GB DDR2 RAM

    Second Life runs fine on it.

  77. alaya kumaki says:

    in response to,”38

    i can tell you, that i had these card too before and, they really arent design for sl at all, got same problem than you, first the memory on board is to low for any animation,it freezze, u will be better with a card that has a lot of memory on board , some amd card are very well design for the 3d animation, look on there site.you got one of these…that just just dont fit…

  78. Curtis Dresler says:

    I run Vista on a high end system as well and after a lot of pain for several months, it works well enough, but not enough to keep me from trying Kubuntu. Most of what I use is open source software now, and if you are using Mozilla, OpenOffice.org, Thunderbird and Gimp, there isn’t much reason to stay with Windows and the continual issues with the latest security problem. At least they stopped the immediate reboot thing that left me fuming.

  79. Kyder Ling says:

    I don’t know about you guys, but I have had a great experience with Vista 64 ever since I got it. I do have a very high end computer. You know, real high tech stuff, an 8800GT, a dual core processor… Real bleeding edge technology, ya know. Oh and 5 gigs of DDR2 ram which can be had for like $90 these days…

    😛

  80. its simple, the client is opensource, so if people want it supported they cna do it themselves.

  81. Maku Xue says:

    Ok, When I switched to vista, I was sceptical, very. But I started when the latest OS by microsoft was Windows 3.0 and realised quickly back with win95 that one of the biggest hurdles that any OS faced was, first, the ones who would bash the new system because it didnt run every little thing or didnt do this or that.

    The truth was it was in some ways alien to them, things arent where you are comfortable with them. you are at first lost to find what your looking for. So it gets shouted down, especially by those who know the older system well, and the old comfortable system is re-installed.

    XP. Great now, but was terrible in its earlier days
    Vista. Not too bad once you know where things are, and if shown the attention XP was shown, it could really shine.

    So lets drop the “this sucks” debate and focus on the main point. LL, stopping support for a tiny percentage is the right thing to do if it improves it for everyone in the long run.

  82. No problem with not supporting OS 10.3, but when are you going to provide stable support for Windows, Mac, and Linux clients? 🙂

  83. Ramzi Linden says:

    @24 Velouria, @57 Christi- You’re right, that we are still investigating freezing that happens on some Macs with the latest 1.20 iterations. VWR-1715 was marked Resolved because that issue was tracking one specific cause of freezing; but obviously it is not the only one. Please lend your voice/symptoms/system environments to VWR-7779 which is tracking the latest freeze problems.

    @46 Fox- we are working on Stability, I promise! When the next Release Candidate cycle begins, we will again more aggressively introduce memory thread monitoring and fixes for crashes… (The best progress is made in these beta-series viewers, when active Crash reporting tells us where the code is failing, and we can iterate immediately with additional debugging information on that part of code.) Katt’s words ring very true: more time can be applied here that will be freed by not deep-diving into a problem, for example, that was very specific only to the Mac PPC only when running OSX 10.3.

  84. Slartibartfast Magicthise says:

    As a self-described “Mac Evangelist” since 1984, I’d love to come in here and sing the praises of my favorite machines.

    But, I’m sadly disappointed in Apple’s lack of focus on their OS (and QuickTime) these past few years, charging full upgrade price for what amounts to simple incremental updates, features that are slower than previously, and crippled functionality of previously useful functions.

    I get the feeling that someday soon, even Apple will discontinue support of their own OS completely and focus entirely on their telephones and MP3 jukeboxes. User satisfaction has taken a back seat to money money money money.

    That’s not the Apple way, and as a developer of easy to use shareware/freeware, it’s not my way either.

    (if I had my way, the Macintosh Finder would have been an intuitive walk-through 3D – somewhat like SL only less confusing – 5 years ago)

    Still, if I have a choice, I’d pick a Mac over any flavor of Windows any day. Don’t make me list the myriad of reasons here, you have Google – use it.

  85. Slartibartfast Magicthise says:

    On another note – SL seems to be the only application that manages to get through the Mac OS’s “Protected Memory” and crash the OS. When any other program crashes, it simply quits to the desktop. SL is the only program that makes me force-reboot my Mac to recover from a crash.

  86. sirhc DeSantis says:

    OK – so the bell tolls for me 🙂 XP on the laptop (its fine) and 2k Pro on my home box (which is dying lol) – so – whats next?

  87. Dael Ra says:

    I love it when people ‘authoritively’ say no-one likes Vista.

    Well I’m a techy. I’ve got Vista 64 on my main PC at home and for me it beats the pants off XP32 which can’t see above 4GB RAM. (and don’t even get me on XP64 which was a right dogs dinner with pretty much zero driver support).

    Sure, I’m happy that my lowly laptop is running XP but it’s so old, it can’t cope with Vista (or SL for that matter).

    I give the choice of Vista or XP at work for new PC’s but only after a month. Only 1 person out of perhaps 20 has asked to go back to XP. The biggest problem with Vista is the shock of the transition. Once they get to know their way around, people start preferring it to XP.

    The big selling point for me as a techy is the built in admin tools make administering Vista so much easier than XP.

    I even know one web designer who’s running Vista 64 as his favoured OS on a Macbook Pro so if Panther can run any one of the numerous virtual PC offerings, that may be a way out 😉

  88. I think this is a good move. At this point in time Panther is a very old release of the OS. The biggest concentration of MacOS users are on Tiger and that is fast being overtaken by Leopard users primarily buying new Macs with Leopard pre-installed. The upcoming version, Snow Leopard, was just recently announced so clearly Panther is a ways back in Apple’s OS pipeline. Panther users are finding support falling off from MANY developers at this point so… Hats off to Linden Lab for timing this fall-off well and informing the user base of the decision in advance to it having a major impact on them. We appreciate the heads-up.

  89. Jonny B good says:

    Vista, PC’s, huh? Come on whiners this blog is about an outdated OS for MAC, yes MAC. Please stick to the topic at hand because they get old when trying to read about the topic. Thanks in advance.
    I think LL is doing an awesome job concentrating on what most people run their Macs on. They can’t keep up with the new technology while still playing in the stone age. Look at the whole pie not your own slice. Software upgrades on a Mac are very affordable. Cut back on buying new clothes for a month and you have the change in pocket to solve this matter.
    Thanks again LL for making the Mac experience much better then it used to be.I personally have very few issues with the RC client. I have only one and that is that some prims appear highlighted red. It’s a pain, but at least were getting closer.
    Keep up the awesome work in the world we all have come to love. ☯

  90. Spankmy boucher says:

    reading some of the comments here you would think that Vista only works on high end PCs , My machine is pathetic , 1 gb ram ,lousy 128 ati graphics card and worst of all its made by Dell ! despite all this vista runs fine and anything I do with it works fine ( as long as I stick to required specs according to the program), about time you children using mac or linux just live with the fact that vista quite easily holds its own against ANY other OS 😉
    WOOTS @ Progress !

  91. Tiny Mind says:

    Vista smoothly running on only 1Gig of RAM is a shock in itself.

    Bump that system up to *at least* 2Gigs and you might be okay for a while.

    Tiny Wise.

  92. I don’t know what you guys are talking about… I can get 45 fps on an old 800Mhz PIII and on-board Intel graphics if I start SL and press CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+0 😉

  93. I hope this will free resources for a better *nix version.
    @Tiny – well – Astala Vista – baby.

  94. Pingback: It’s Official, we will Not be Supporting OS 10.3 “Panther” after Today « Living Virtualy | Blog & Photos

  95. Blinders Off says:

    @ 90 Spank: Well yeah, just about any OS will do for SOLITAIRE. ; D

    Seriously, if you’re Running Vista on 1 gig, I think:

    1) Either you’re pulling our legs
    2) You’re not demanding much of your system
    or
    3) Your idea of “ok” is different than the rest of us. ; )

    I’ve known people who play SL on laptops using an Intel Graphics Accelerator who think it runs “OK”. That’s because they’ve never known anything else. I’ve known people running SL on old Pentium III systems with 128megs of RAM and a duh graphics card who tell me it works “just great”. Me, I figure I’m a little more demanding in my opinion of “just great”. Glitchy, pixellated graphics doesn’t qualify in my book.

    But Vista in 1 gig? Not if you’re a power user, yer not. Even Microsoft recommends higher specs than that, and they make the thing. Try loading SL, Adobe Photshop, your email client and a CD player all at the same time. Then tell me how that “Vista in 1 gig” does for ya. XD

  96. Tegg B says:

    Alex Says: “Well as a Panther user who can’t upgrade to a Higher OS because I’m on an older machine, I think this SUCKS. You’re basically telling me, “get a new computer or don’t use SL”. Yet another slap in the face from LL. Thanks.”

    Yeah happens, NC soft slapped me in the face 2 years ago too, “dump your 586” or don’t play CoH anymore.
    And then it was “like wow, I can play this game in high settings and color now………..”

    Alex Says: “And to the “Down with Mac” guy…How you enjoying all that spyware and viruses on your old PC? When’s the new OS that people will actually USE coming out? Wake up dude, it’s not the 90’s anymore. Macs are on the rise, PC’s are on the decline.”

    There’s no spyware and virusus being written for DOS or CPM nowdays either. When Apple get a big market share, they will suffer all the same attention from the wrong people just as much.

    If you’re going to write maliscious software, why bother for only 20% of the market?

  97. Saiki Spirt says:

    @95

    I run Vista on this:
    CPU: Intel Core Series Processor (1866 MHz)
    Memory: 1014 MB
    OS Version: Microsoft Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (Build 6001)
    Graphics Card Vendor: Intel
    Graphics Card: Intel 945GM
    OpenGL Version: 1.4.0 – Build 7.14.10.1437
    LLMozLib Version: [LLMediaImplLLMozLib] – 2.01.16709 (Mozilla GRE version 1.8.1.13_0000000000)
    Packets Lost: 0/18410 (0.0%)

    While XP has an average of .01% packet loss, it runs 100x better than vista, I sent this to an IT pro, who has not responded:

    on your blog you posted this:
    “No one in their right mind would claim that XP was somehow “better” than Vista.”

    I am in my right mind, and will say this quite adamantly, and here’s why:

    I bought a brand new laptop a few months back (just after Vista came standard on ALL pcs, I have since seen 2 with XP on) and with a $400us laptop, 512mb of ram (shortly later updated to 1gb, functionality upgrade), 1.86ghz processor and intel 945GM graphics, Vista (basic) was slow, clunky, and unusable.

    On the other hand, I used Vista RC1 at the release of RC2 (I heard bout it, and thought: “looks interesting, I’ll give it a shot”) on a much older(6-7 years to date, now fried mobo) 2.2ghz mono-core, 640mb ram (started 128mb, updated for gaming), with an Nvidia 5200 FX graphics card (started with some intel pos controler with “0”3D support, again a gaming upgrade). This ran like a dream, except in the games funcionality department, which vista was using DX9c, causing major slowdown and incombatability with many games that now work on Vista. This was when I stopped using the RC long before its experation, I am a gamer to the core, but I have indeed learned how to clean XP/Vista (probably 95% of NT kernel machines) manually.

    and finally.. with XP on this machine I have had 0 problems, after one initial showstopping bug, which was user error, and quickly corrected. (this pc still boots Vista as well, but I find my time is spent on XP more than anything) the answer: Is Xp better than Vista? For me, the definate answer is yes.

    p.s.

    on your blog bosted here: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/xpsp3_02.asp you mention things that can be downloaded, but provide no links to these downloads most of which I have never seen, heard of, nor missed. (royale has o silver, and I like silver. my brother uses silver luna as well on an MCE)

    Someone care to explain where my logic fails? (which I know it does not)

  98. FourEyes Cyclops says:

    When a respected firm like Gartner is calling Vista “doomed” you know it’s in trouble. Don’t believe it? Take a look:

    http://www.BeateNetworks.com/blog/index.php?/archives/261-Gartner-Windows-Vista-Doomed.html

  99. Debra Himmel says:

    I’m seriously looking at Linux as my future OS. I have a brand new Dell with duel core processor with 2Gb of ram running Vista, and I wish I didn’t have Vista. My other PC’s will continue to run XP; I see a big future for XP. The reason I’ve never bought a Mac is because after going on a workshop to see what it can do, I quickly realised it was a toy. But I know why people like them, and I do understand. I’ve also tried many of the other independent viewers either based on the ll viewer or not, but found them to be very slow. So I agree that ll is taking the right step in removing support to keep this viewer the best that is available. At the moment, my favourite viewer is 1.20.6.

  100. Shai Khalifa says:

    I’m a victim of the 2Wire/Mac incompatibility problem – so I loaded XP in bootcamp and I gotta say – sl Windoze version runs perfectly stable and screams along. In fact, where all my PC using compadres are falling by the wayside, freezing, lagging and generally not having a good time of it – I”m flying along without a care in the world.

    So – solution to all those having major lag issues

    Bye a Mac – install Leopard and run your PC software in Windoze partition.

    Macbook Pro 2.16 gig
    2gig dram
    ati Radeon X1600 graphics card

    🙂 Shai

  101. Indego Hax says:

    I think people are forgetting the fact that Vista is a new operating system. Like sl it has its own bugs etc that microsoft are fixing (just like linden lab fixing SL bugs)

    I have been running Vista since 2 weeks after its release, first off it was slow but with sp1 etc upgrades now it is going better than ever. which also helps with a system speed upgrade that you can configure with a Flash drive.

    1 gig ram, 160 gig hardive, NVIDIA GeForce GO 7600. < tell me how this doesnt work well with a vista comp running sl?
    it works like a breeze!

  102. Larkum Woodget says:

    XP not so perfect.

    I wasted time for the SL support guys recently since Windows XP failed to unhide the hidden files in it’s folders for me.

    What started out as a minor client problem was made huge by this. I almost formatted my hard drive but luckily I figured out what was going on just in time.

  103. Tee String says:

    I had Vista for about a month then ‘upgraded’ to XP
    My reason
    It shouldn’t take me 5 minutes to copy 5MB

  104. Von Johin says:

    Heck, you’re barely supporting OS X as it is. Why is it that when I book Windows XP on the Mac Pro, using the same hardware as is used when I book OS X Leopard, that I can’t get the resolution, or speed or stability of the SL client for Windows? I don’t think LL puts nearly enough work into the Mac client, and running it at its most stable settings vs. running the Windows client on the same exact hardware is the difference between using a Windlight level client and the old pre-Windlight client. Bone up on it, folks.

  105. Elissa Bristol says:

    @22

    LOL all op systems have issues. Have you read the news lately? sensationalism grips the national and international media that covers negatives. I personally, am on a cheapo, 300 buck Compaq Presario F756NR that has CRAP on it and Vista and I’ve crashed maybe, oh say, 4 times, since I started using SL. However, I am no expert, just a conscience thinker. @103, please tell me how many movies you are downloading, or BitTorrent? @ 104, Von, please think for a second, if 90% of the world uses Microsoft software, why would Linden spend the money and time on independent players? Is that profitable for Linden Labs, LLC?
    Yes sweetie, I know, this is Second Life, the land of imaginary dreams, but this ALSO isn’t the Second Life of 3 years ago or 4, when it was a dream for so many.

    This is the Second Life affected by the economy and to remain a viable business and because as Kate said, only 1/4 of 1% of you use Macs, it is time to focus on one situation, much as it was when they were introducing features like crazy and everyone complained about that.

    Personally, if I’d stop getting suspended for nothing, I’d be happy, but as is, I am not the “man,” so I’ll grin and bear it! See you all on July 31st! hehe (Just picking Linden Labs).

  106. Anonymous says:

    Is LL planning to remove VISTA from SL in the future too?

  107. Ruadeil Zabelin says:

    @67
    Vista isn’t all that good, but that’s not the reason they still “support” it. They reason is that all the libraries they use for rendering (opengl) and audio etc… support both xp and vista. That has nothing to do with LL.

    @106

    Personally i’d like to see voicechat fixed on the linux build. And people with an older mac: update.

  108. Catto Romano says:

    @105 (Elissa Bristol): No, Kate said “1/4 of 1%” (that is 0.25%) of users logging on to Second Life still use Mac OS X 10.3 (as opposed to 10.4 or 10.5). Last I heard, the Mac’s total market share in the US is currently about 8%.

  109. Mouse says:

    Katt:

    On your post, you say;
    “I’ll note that I personally run Second Life on one of two MacBook Pro laptops, one running Tiger (OS 10.4,) and one running Leopard (OS 10.5.4.)”

    Can you tell us what you’ve done to get around the problem with the video card on the MBP that is not on the SL recommended spec’s list (Nvidia 8600). I’m considering getting an MBP laptop and I will mainly use it to run SL – but I can’t clearly see if there is a resolution when I look at the JIRA pages. Any insight would be appreciated.

  110. Prana Cale says:

    Well smart decision, few years to late .. still not bad… It`s wasting of ressources. Unexpected MACs sells good, first time in history of apple. I know someone who owe MAC, first time in my life i know someone with mac *LOL* however 1% -> waste of ressource to spend time on this…

    I can understand some Mac ppl cry now, and blame vista or linux … 1% is 1% …

    Next consequence should be to remove quicktime! I hope some of the Lindens continue to use some braincells (they are not used often) and think about quicktime components … think about avi vs mov, think about video formats and distribution! flash, avi and mov

    Maybe some of happy lindens owe DVD player and put inside avi and mov dvd/cd and check what the dvd player do…

  111. Wayfinder says:

    @ 98 Foureyes: Thanks for posting that. It puts an end to the senseless debate and kicks in an official opinion:

    “According to Gartner analysts, Microsoft’s Windows Vista is in danger of collapsing. The analysts pointed out the slow adoption rate by businesses, just 6% to date, and that the Windows Vista code base is so large.”

    That’s exactly what we’ve been saying people. Vista is not being accepted by the general business community (which is essential to Micro$oft’s success), and the code base is huge (and yes, it takes lots more RAM and hard drive space than XP).

    Again, not putting down Vista. Just setting the facts straight. The facts are the vast majority of computer users are sticking with XP. When Micro$oft produced Vista, they obviously were thinking about their bottom line more than the needs and desires of the end user. They figured their reputation would automatically make Vista a winner… and they were wrong. They underestimated the average computer user’s ability to say “NO” and so now Vista packages are sitting on retailer shelves gathering dust.

    Like Garnier says… Micro$oft is going to have to rethink and redesign if they’re going to appeal to the business world. Because businesses everywhere are starting to realize that Linux works, and the software is free.

  112. Sir Jake says:

    Wow, that doesn’t really makes sense. The smart thing to do would be to wait until any computer system releases their newer version before omitting an older version, thus always having the same number of version supports per maker.

    “and instead we should let them move on to other work” ??? Other work? The real game of SL is created by the residents isn’t it? With out that we would have land, water, trees, weeds and nothing else lol. Seriously though, things like new skins are not a priority in any of the game play…. it’s like putting a bumper sticker on a car, it doesn’t help the engine work any better. You could free up those people and the ones that came up with the idea and have them do the up keep on OS w/e lol. I realize they are totally diff areas but my point is in priorities. Now that I think of it you could dump the Voice as it is not used all at and take those resources, ($) to assure more users instead of the other way around. Or you could bring back the lesser tech sun sets so we could have sun sets again… many do miss the orange that was replaced with the gray. The list goes on on but oh well . . .

    hmmm

  113. LesPaul says:

    Nothing new under the sun.
    5 years is old in term of computer technology and usually people that are not benchmark freak upgrade about each 3 years.
    So supporting OS after 5 years is not logical as the softwares themselves become more resource hungry (new features and all) thus require stronger hardware and OS that can take advantage of that.
    Memory and disk space is really is cheap nowaday way cheaper than it have never been.
    Vista is far from perfect but I have no problem with it on my Lenovo Laptop T61P 2.4G, 2G RAM, NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB) running Vista Business.
    I can even run 2 or 3 Avatars if in reduced windows mode so…

  114. Panther Farber says:

    Why not take your hardware thats running panther and install linux then set it up to look like OSX. there are quite a few tutorials that explain how to do it and it will probably run SL better then panther did.

  115. Vivienne Graves says:

    @59: Yes, get a NEWER computer, or don’t use SL. 3d graphics evolve and improve; the software changes to keep pace with newer hardware. The current generation of graphics cards are significantly more powerful than those available five years ago, as are CPUs. Complaining that you can’t run the newest versions of SL (or for that matter of any other graphically intensive 3d program) on your five-year-old, obsolete hardware is like complaining that your VHS player won’t play DVDs.

  116. Kara Spengler says:

    The reason for the seemingly low numbers of panther users is the adoption rate. Typically, mac users upgrade at a higher rate of speed than their PC using counterparts.

    So why is one of my macs running panther?

    For compatibility. Some programs simply dropped support between the panther release and the leopard release. For example, if I was not running panther on that machine I would be unable to update my address book on my phone.

    Even aside from that though, how many new Tiger CDs do you see out there? Even if I got them through a third party vendor I would be stuck with it if I lost compatibility. One of my panther install disks went AWOL and I already know at least one of my must-have-or-no-go programs does not work with leopard (plus the specs increased with leopard although they meet them for tiger).

    Buying a new machine is laughable … I just did that a few months ago so am nowhere near the lifecycle point where I would buy a new machine.

    With Nicholaz having been being pushed out of the picture I find myself with dwindling options. I could find myself suddenly unable to log in my paid/mentor account and my builder/fun account at the same time.

    Will LL tell us if the developer resources will be diverted to the mac client? If I can get stability so I can run two SLs (hopefully someone will apply the Nicholaz patches) it would return most of the lost functionality.

  117. Debra Himmel says:

    @ 115. If it still functions as a PC and works, it can’t be obsolete. There are two things going on in the computer world. Companies like Linden try to improve their product to compete or generate new sales, and companies like the graphic card manufacturers improve their products to compete and generate new sales. The result however is that people end up being forced to buy new hardware and software to use a product which may be the only product that does not function well with their existing setup. And lets not forget that where operating systems are concerned, they always seem to push the hardware to the limit so never showing a speed increase. I would prefer to still be using Windows NT with add ons to make things like USB ports work. NT would run extremely fast on even 5 year old hardware; much faster than Vista does now on a brand new PC.

  118. Debra Himmel says:

    @ 116. You really also made the point if you follow the logic of what you wrote, that you need to get yourself a Windows OS.

  119. Vivienne Graves says:

    @117: from the standpoint of 3d graphics capability, five-year-old hardware IS obsolete (or obsolescent). A 486-DX2 running Windows 95 will still function as a PC (for limited web browsing and word processing, anyway), but you can’t argue that it isn’t obsolete just because you can still use it.

    Graphics card manufacturers and CPU manufacturers don’t only improve their products and push the techical limits of the hardware because they want to compete or they want to draw more sales; they do it because the technologies are still maturing and they haven’t yet reached the practical limits of what can be achieved with hardware improvements. Manufacturing processes continue to improve, allowing for greater miniaturisation and more transistors on a single chip. If manufacturers DIDN’T continue to improve the technology we’d still be using 386’s and 1st-gen Macs.

  120. thank you and thank you agin

  121. Ron Crimson says:

    *agrees with Vivienne*

    And I seriously doubt that NT would run “extremely fast” on a 5-year-old PC… or MS-DOS, for that matter. 😛

    Old is old. Period.

  122. Debra Himmel says:

    @ 119. You are missing the point completely. If you are using word 95 and Excel 95, and that is all you need, then the PC CANNOT be obsolete just because there is some other software that needs more power. Companies ONLY improve their products to generate sales. Linden only improve their viewer to make sure people continue to come to SL as their competition will improve their products to try and get those going to SL to come to them. And I guarantee u that you would stop going to SL if you found something better. If you think about what you are saying, why aren’t you using SUN workstations. The answer is simple and you know what it is.

  123. Debra Himmel says:

    @ 121. Well it would. I have used NT, I have a copy of it, and know what it can do. In fact, there is no difference between NT with Internet Explorer 4 and XP in Classic mode apart from the fact that XP is much better at connecting you to the internet, but harder to connect to another pc on the network. At the time I was using it, an application would open with lightning speed. Open up Internet Explorer and it would be on your screen without you being able to see it open; it would just be there. And that with a 230 processor. Please, make comments like that if you know what you are talking about, not if you don’t. And for your information, I have a five year old PC. 1.8 P4 with 500MB RAM and NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4000 with 128 memory for the display. This runs two SL viewers at the same time whereas my brand new 2.3 duel core with 2Gb of ram will only run 3 SL viewers with one often crashing under Vista. The only reason I don’t run NT on my old PC is because I can’t run the software I need to run, on it, which is because the drivers etc are not produced for NT, not because its old.

  124. Ron Crimson says:

    Debra, you’re not making much sense I’m sorry to say… for one thing you say NT runs fast. No argument there, but I thought one of your earlier points was that every newer OS is more bloated and slower, now you say XP and NT perform similarly well (again, no argument there). Hmm, so why aren’t you just running XP if Vista is so bad for you and NT doesn’t have the driver support you need? Before you go accusing people of not knowing what they’re talking about, you may want to get your own story straight first.
    And old PCs are still obsolete no matter how you look at it. If your 5-year-old machine continues to serve its purpose then more power to you, but you still can’t possibly expect LL to produce a viewer that still runs OK on such outdated hardware.
    Lemme ask you this, why aren’t YOU using a SUN workstation? 😛

  125. Debra Himmel says:

    @ 124. Well looking again at what I wrote I understand your confusion. I should have written: “there is no difference between the look and use of NT with Internet Explorer 4 and XP in Classic mode apart from the fact that XP is much better at connecting you to the internet, but harder to connect to another pc on the network”. XP is however slower. I also decided to use XP instead of staying with 2000 because of the better internet connection and the fact that the TCP/IP stack no longer got corrupted. Vista in Classic mode does look different.

    I am using XP on my PC’s apart from my new one. Obviously, I’m still finding out what it can and can’t do; which does not look good. Obviously, I need to spend money to get a copy of XP to run on it. And obviously, I need to know whether all the drivers are available for XP for that hardware.

    As for Linden, I expect them to do what is best for them so they can compete and stay in business. In fact, in my first post (99) I agreed with them. I have never written they shouldn’t. I also stated that I would now be looking at Linux as my future OS.

    As for a SUN workstation, I have considered it, but decided the cost would be too much as the software also costs a lot more. There is more to all this than just speed anyway. I don’t like the fact that governments can just see what I’m doing on my PC, something that Microsoft made a lot easier on Vista.

  126. Tinkerz13 Waco says:

    Ok…. so they will still be supporting 1.19 which works on OS X 3 right???

    So how come when I tried to log in this morning I couldn’t? That makes tons of sense…..

  127. pawseries says:

    I think this is a great idea, but wonder how well it will work.

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