Knowledge Base Article of the Week #33: Fruit Rind Joke Goes Here

That sound you hear is the sound of another Knowledge Base Article of the Week being unveiled! This one’s about appealing account suspensions, which is something we’re noticing some curiosity around. Point your browsers to the following article, titled My account has been unfairly or incorrectly suspended or permanently closed by Linden Lab — how can I appeal this decision? Your answers lie within.

As always, if you’ve got any questions or stories to share with us about your documentation-related experiences, feel free to stop by our weekly office hour on Friday at 2PM SLT on our couch dock in Beaumont. (just remember, individual support requests are for the Support Portal)

Be well,

Jon Linden

This entry was posted in Community, Customer Service, Resident Experience, Tips & Tricks. Bookmark the permalink.

98 Responses to Knowledge Base Article of the Week #33: Fruit Rind Joke Goes Here

  1. Budd Raymaker says:

    Dont be bad and they wont boot you. its just that simple!

  2. you can be reported and it was not your fault. says:

    It is easy to say if you have are not doing anything wrong but scripts make it especially weird. I reported a guy who didn’t repair a sign that constantly popped up the map with a location. I had to TP to another area, with great difficulty with the mapping stealing focus and stopping me clicking etc. When I finally closed the maps and they stopped IM’d the guy. ell, he was busy and didn’t do anything and hours later I TP to my store…I get the map opening over and over. I waited till next day and had to report him in hope someone would check it out and stop. I even had it muted and still got popups.

    I figured he was a griefer as the sign could not possibly coded to repeat because I have a note card and land mark giver script. He also was advertising therapy…what worse that to look for some help and get harrassed? An powerful grief tactic? or just a guy with a bad sign script. He IM’d me after being reported and said to tell him whenever I saw his sign so he can check and replace it. It had stopped sending me maps and I checked it again to see if it worked. It seems fine. So he got reported but had a problem with his sign script that gave note cards and a map open up to TP for convenience. He could have got banned if he was in hospital or lost his PC or connection and people kept sending reports.

  3. Ryan Snook says:

    I’ve noticed that there are plenty of cases in which it is completely appropriate to AR someone, the question I would like to see addressed in a future post is a little clarification about the ‘grey areas’. This could possibly help out the team assigned to deal with the ARs, perhaps saving them a few ARs a day from folks who don’t quite grasp what the whole thing is about. In any case, this is deffinately a great article to have, there’s not many who can stand being away from this wonderful program for long! Many thanks as always.

  4. Jonathan Snow says:

    O jee, I have no idea how server rollbacks work but to me it seems that the “decending while hovering” bug is back too 😦
    The nightmare for building builders.

  5. Winter Ventura says:

    Bookmarked.

    I’ll sleep better now.

  6. Unlock “The Corn Field” so we can all go there

  7. Ryu Darragh says:

    Ryan, if you stick with the *blatant* cases, the ones so obvious they can’t be mistaken, you’re safe from accidents. It’s usually easy to tell the grey area ones from deliberate TOS violations with a bit of work. For those who generate reports, sticking with the obvious ones works. After all, there are many levels of reporting abuse from “spamming” to “assault” and you can describe what you see/hear. Doing to much defining in the grey areas just increases the size of the document.. and that never helps.

  8. Oh-Oh says:

    After reading post #2 i swear i will NEVER reporting someone again.

  9. Ann Otoole says:

    Fruit rind? LOL!

    Please never degenerate to PORK RINDS!

  10. Razrcut Brooks says:

    Couch Dock ? scanning this article prompted a double-take at this phrase…… a subliminal message or Freudian slip?

  11. Soap Clawtooth says:

    I would suggest that before writing up articles on how to place account suspension appeals, you decrease the amount of time it takes to respond to a support ticket.

    I posted a ticket on 7/12/08
    I recieved an answer yesterday
    As a paying premium member, this is unacceptable.

  12. Soap Clawtooth says:

    BTW @1
    You end up getting booted for some of the most stupid things sometimes, because the Governance team does not assess the situation properly before they hit you with the banhammer.

  13. Firebird Nightfire says:

    @9

    I _LIKE_ pork rinds!
    😛

  14. brinda allen says:

    @ 1 yup! seems to be that simple…although s— does happen
    usually to the same ppl over and over etc 🙂

  15. Buck says:

    Now if Torley had written the article, I know the fruit rind would be watermelon.

    @1–Once I wanted to donate to a tip jar but, in the pie menu, accidentally hit “Sit here” and ended up sitting on the tip jar. (Wish I’d taken a snapshot.) Though it didn’t get me banned, it did earn me a “GET OFF THE STAGE!” from the club host. 🙂

  16. Blinders Off says:

    @1 Not so me friend. I’ve known people who have been accused of abuse by Linden Lab based on fraudulent reports, with no appeals process in place.

    I’ve known people who were booted because they were newbies suckered into griefing, and were banned even when an apology was made, accepted by the victim of the attack, and appeal made by the victim to LL to drop the matter.

    I just read a blog post of someone who has filed a complaint with the BBB because a LL employee removed the user’s JIRA privileges because he challenged her closing a JIRA report while the problem was still unfixed. LL’s response was laughable and pretty sure to get them another red mark with the BBB.

    Linden Lab deals with a lot of people and it’s understandable that sometimes they might make a wrong call. So the appeals process is a good idea. But believing that if someone doesn’t do anything wrong they won’t be booted isn’t all that accurate. Happens all the time. But if LL’s response is anything like related in the blog post…. LOL… fat lotta good appeals are going to do. Hoping the appeals will be handled by a different area of the company than handles the booting in the first place.

    Now mind ya, if I were LL I’d boot far more people than they do. So I have no problems with booting people. And if an accident happens once in a while, a good appeals process can fix that reasonably well. I’m just hoping the appeals process is better than the process shown in the blog against their JIRA system.

  17. Ron Crimson says:

    Interesting article… but LL, do me one BIG favor.

    Get rid of the damned JLU group… last summer, one of its members threatened to demote my account status from ‘resident’ to ‘griefer’ because he had a beef with me personally (I did nothing wrong…honest). It was then that I learned JLU members have powers nobody – NOBODY – outside of LL itself should ever be endowed with, unless they’re very, very carefully chosen and trained to use them properly. Far as I’m concerned, JLU is a group of virtual terrorists.

  18. JetZep Zabelin says:

    I only received a disciplinary warning while doing my own peaceful demonstration for Tibet. The warning gave no reason why I was out of line and made me begin to think that someone didn’t like me speaking out. I had to appeal to find out that it was because I was wearing a large attachment at a welcome area. This is a grey area because people are constantly wearing large attachments, some avatars are made of large attachments. They roam around sometimes for a long time. But my “large attachment” was worn while I was out of everyone’s way and I was kicked out by an administrator within minutes.

  19. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @16

    I was recently banned because LL can’t be bothered to assess a situation properly.

    I asked some residents of a sandbox if i could rez a large object so as to not cause grief and they said ‘sure go ahead!’ I didn’t realise one of them was someone I had beef with cause I wasn’t paying attention
    SO i rezzed the thing and all of his pals and himself reported me – one of his chums followed me around and orbited me and trashed my AV. I reported him rather than responded in kind.

    LL’s answer?
    I get a 7 day ban (which took 3 days to appeal) and the griefer got a warning.

    I believe that even a cursory examination of the logs at the time would have revealed the true nature of the situation and I wouldn’t have had to wait three days (which is very poor if you’re premium) to get unbanned.

  20. JetZep Zabelin says:

    Soap, I heard that LL recently expanded the governance team. I wonder about their judgement.

    When I was new, I rezzed a huge prim and was trying to make it into a floor at help island public. It was causing avatars to bounce up and down but this was not my intention. Lexie Linden came around and IM’d me to please not use huge prims and I apologized and removed it. That is the proper way to deal with people not a knee-jerk banhammer that some of the “new cops” seem to prefer.

  21. Fulano De Tal says:

    I thought banning was LL’s strategy for increasing logins. Nearly anyone who gets banned will login under another account, sometimes one that hasn’t been used in a while.

    Let’s see, I was in a region that got hit with some giant spam boxes. I don’t know if the griefer got banned, but I did. I was banned for 3 days for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It took less than 5 minutes for LL to ban me, without an investigation. I appealed immediately after being banned, explained what happened and even found the name of the griefer in my chat logs. It took LL over 2 days to reverse my ban.

    Not cool.

  22. Fideaux Boucher says:

    Simple logic here:

    If it looks like greifing, it probably is. 🙂

  23. JetZep Zabelin says:

    Fideaux, I hope you’re never a Linden responsible for administering justice.

  24. Soap Clawtooth says:

    Jet! LOL!

    Yes. I agree that a ‘shoot first ask questions’ later policy seems to be in effect and it merely makes the Governance team look inept because some of the things one gets banned for are, frankly, ludicrous.
    It’s good that they’re expanding the governance team – hopefully that’ll increase the turnaround time of the support tickets (though I JUST THIS MINUTE) got a reply from one i filed a week and a half ago.).

    LL, please revise your support strategies.

  25. JetZep Zabelin says:

    One way to increase riots (greifing) is to toss out injustices all over the place. Any Lindens who practice this policy are actually an enemy of Second Life.

  26. Soap Clawtooth says:

    What it does, zep, is enable the enterprising griefer to use the AR system as a griefing tool itself. Something someone has done to me twice now. The whole system needs to be changed. It got changed when the cornfield became too small to support the number of residents, now I submit that the current AR system is too ineffective to support the number of residents against the number of Governance Employees. Heavy understaffing is just killing us.

  27. Cherry Czervik says:

    @26 your last sentence says it.

    I used to work at the head office of a major car manufacturer – they were particularly efficient and I personally know that everyone was working flat out. The SLA was three days to respond to postal correspondence (ignoring email and phone contact which was in the ratio of at least 50 calls a day each PLUS all the correspondence, casework etc).

    The running “outstanding” total was generally 400. I dealt with MD and board level, I remember being told by the MD’s secretary as I left one Friday that I couldn’t go as she had 40 cases – telling her someone would do it – coming back to an even higher outstanding load and all 40 cases a week later.

    You need more staff. As someone currently employed by, and with lots of experience within, a bluechip multinational you’d find that your user base going forward will be more inclined to stick if they felt personally cared about as most of us did in the earlier days.

  28. Meghan Dench says:

    Jon, there’s an Error in the Article;

    “Linden Lab takes violations of the Second Life® Terms of Service and Community Standards very seriously. ”

    Fix to;

    “Linden Lab takes violations of the Second Life® Terms of Service and Community Standards very seriously. ”

    Thankies! : D

    I was also wondering about people who’ve had their account Banned, and admit to doing wrong but are sorry and want to have their account reactivated, and they’re willing to pay a fee etc.

    Would that ever happen, if they’re truely not gonna make trouble?

  29. Firebird Nightfire says:

    The other day I was in a build class when someone decided to be a scriptard. The people in charge ran a scan for running scripts and I showed up – I was wearing an av with a scripted ao. But I am well known there so they figured I was not the troublemaker and simply asked me if I was wearing a scripted item.

    The moral is: Keep your nose clean and people will notice. When the solid waste hits the vertical impeller, you’re more likely to get away squeaky clean.

  30. Kristi Frog says:

    Actually, there are times when appeals are necessary on accounts. My account was suspended a while back for no apparent reason. When I called LL to find out why it was suspended, they told me that some how my account got linked to another account that *did* do some thing wrong. I think they probably suspended several accounts to be safe, then when I verified who I was, they very quickly reversed my suspension. And they were quick aand friendly about it too!

    Yea you all will probably say I was just lucky, but I tend to think that if you have a positive attitude while talking to people even when you have a problem, it helps. Kindness and Respect gets you farther then anger and hostility. 😎

  31. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @30

    Yeah – happens to be ok if you live in the US, you can phone them and don’t have to wait a few decadesto get your ticket answered.

    Here in the UK the best in phone support we get is the billing line, which helpfully connects us to a number in the US – to charge us the international rate – and then redirects us back to a number in the UK.

  32. I have a question on the wording on that JIRA article, to quote:

    However, if you can maintain in good faith that the violations were not due to your actions or negligence, or the actions or negligence of others working for you, you may appeal the suspension or closure of your account(s)[…]

    (emphasis mine)

    So allegedly you can be banned now because people working for you have been misbehaving? That makes me ask two questions…
    1) How does Linden Lab validate the contractual relationship, in order to establish that someone works for me? Does this applies only to employees or outsourced labour?
    2) Do I at least get a warning if some of my outsourced workers (or former outsourced workers) are misbehaving?
    I find the wording on that article pretty irregular. There is no way I can guarantee that a disgruntled former worker doesn’t suddenly go around roaming the grid and griefing half of the residents and claiming “Gwyn made me do it”. In fact, when signing the ToS, I did not see any clause that bound me to keep my workers under control. I’m not their mommy; they’re responsible for their own actions.

    If this was a policy change, and I’m glad that I have read it, should I inform my workers (and possibly my lawyers who write the contracts) that I need a written agreement where I’m not responsible for their actions in-world? Will that be acceptable to the Governance Team? Can I get your assurance that in case any of my workers misbehave (without my control), I’ll be able to send your trigger-happy banning team the signed contracts first, before getting banned myself and having to file an appeal?

  33. Rodger Rammidge says:

    My friend was suspended for one day for adfarming while actually campaigning against it.
    She raised a ticket to appeal against the suspension which was eventually responded to 3 days after the suspension had ended.
    Any sort of investigation would have showed she actively campaigned against Adfarming and one particular Adfarmer had ARed her for daring to highlight this repugnent practice.
    Linden Labs needs to get a grip and check out all AR’s properly rather than going off half cocked.

    AR’s offer a level of help to avatars experiencing grief, in the many different forms that exist in Second Life.
    People should be able to Abuse Report whenever they feel the need arises, secure in the knowledge Linden Labs will investigate and act appropriately.

    Ocassionally mistakes will be made but a sincere apology from LL would ease the frustration when this occurs, rather than the standard break in TOS patter currently being offered in these instances when an appeal is made.

  34. Ron Crimson says:

    Lots and lots of smart comments here… I can’t wait for LL to blog a response.

    Also:

    “…is enable the enterprising griefer to use the AR system as a griefing tool itself.”

    Could not have said it better!! o_O

  35. Georgette Whitfield says:

    I’ve heard some horror stories about innocent folks being banned because their business rival concocted some story and ARed them. And the Lab don’t see the POV of the person being ARed before they ban: they assume the person filing the report is in the right, but that may not always be the case. The whole system needs to be ‘policed’ much better IMHO.

    Also, to echo #31: when are you going to set up phone lines for Europe, Asia and Australasia? Together we make up way more of your customer base than the States do. We should not have to pay international rate to get tech support. Why not create a multi-lingual tech support centre at your Brighton location? Go on, treat us! 🙂

  36. Razor says:

    i figured out just by having a shop i get plenty of ARs on my name. very often I get a message about people yelling at me YOU RIPPED ME OFF, abuse reporting me because they didn’t get their product after paying. this is well known bug in secondlife itself and not the merchants fault, yet people are not informed about this.

    As a shop owner you get a lot of ‘haters’ this way, (especially since a lot of have no idea they can ask you for a replacement and ignore to read profiles)

    they might report you for anything just to “get back to you” as they often threat with. is that taken into account too? Or do i have to AR every person that sends me this kind of message?

    This ‘paying but not receiving your product’ bug exists for about a year now, its a shame it was never fixed, and a bigger shame linden labs does not take resonsibility for it itself (EG paying back people themselves and dealing with the angry people instead of letting us merchants get this every day)

    JIRA MISC-571

  37. Name withheld for a good reason. says:

    /me shrugs

    The whole process is completely broken. I think we have to start from there. Flagrant griefers do get away with reprimands or even no action. Completely innocent people do get banned. Both happen.

    Try creating an alt then AR-ing it for something that pushes LL’s buttons, like ageplay. It’ll be banned within the hour. Evidence of guilt, corroboration, or *even an actual incident* is completely unnecessary.

    You have no rights, there is no due process the ‘governance’ is despotic – and only mostly benign. The ToS are only binding on you, not on LL, LL will interpret or amend the ToS just as they damned please. The standard punishment, a ban, is akin to summary execution.

    But .. how could it be any other way? LL is a business and has to pay irl to keep the electricity flowing: something we all have an interest in. ‘Fairness’ is not a business metric.

    And for the “if you’re innocent, you have nothing to worry about” faction, consider this: tomorrow your closest friend is missing from SL. Dead irl? Banned? You might answer that question if you try hard. Banned for what? Evidence? Guilty? You’ll never know.

    What you might campaign for and might get LL to accept is transparency. irl who is accused of what by whom, the evidence and the outcomes are all part of the public record. Injustices usually need secrecy to flourish. But greater transparency (and freedom of speech!) is a broader issue for SL and LL than just this.

    And finally remember injustices are rife irl too.

    “The law isn’t justice. It’s a very imperfect mechanism. If you press exactly the right buttons and are also lucky, justice may show up in the answer. A mechanism is all the law was ever intended to be.”
    Raymond Chandler

  38. Razor says:

    @35 why not give non USA people tech support by skype or a similar system

  39. Balius says:

    I know someone who got banned because someone reported he was a kid – God only know how the misguided “reporter” decided my friend was a kid.

    My friend actually had to fax his British driver’s license to LL to be unbanned – What if he didn’t have a license? Or didn’t feel like sharing his personal info ?

    So, what about “the right to a fair trial” ?

    lol – with LL ?

    Seems they ban first, then ask questions later – Look at Jim Nagy’s story sometime – He was protesting an ad farm when they banned him ! So (rightfully) he left SL, sold all his land and said “Forget LL”

    This is the sort of PR nightmare one would think Linden would want to avoid…

    B

    PS Do you realize that Linden has been publishing people’s personal names and email addresses on the general web ? All people (like me) who responded to the MUSICDEV forum have been exposed… I only called the concierge five times over a three month period – But alas, to no avail – My name and email address are out there for everyone in the world to see (lol)

  40. Razor says:

    I though you could only AR people for beeing a kid if they actually said they are a minor and its in the printscreen? OMG if this is not the case, anyone can report anyone for beeing a minor 0.o

  41. Zi Ree says:

    @39 Balius: It looks like MUSICDEV is not a forum but a public mailing list. It’s the very nature of mailing lists to expose the mail addresses and any (voluntarily entered) real life names to all members and (in this case) the general public. You can sign up with a different mail address if you like, you even can omit personal information from your Mail client. It’s all up to you.

  42. Daten Thielt says:

    @40, you can report anyone for being underage and its wrong because when they get a report your account is instantly sususpended untill you age verifie

  43. AC Pfeffer says:

    Well, as mild a deterrent as it is, banning is the only global punishment for texture and content theft.

    So I hope that LL are being more serious about it when it comes to blatant theft, and impose permanent bans and machine bans on these people once found guilty so they can’t just create a new account.

    Nobody needs this type of people in SL – they are destroying commited, hard-working good peoples lives, some of who are trying to make a living / survival off SL,

  44. Ric Mollor says:

    If one is banned the best thing to do would be to write off SL and consider it an opportunity to spend time exploring the literally dozens of other virtual worlds and grids or some of the many free to play MMOs that are being released.

    It’s become quite obvious that Second Life is *not* going to be the ‘next big thing’. SL has been out of beta for 5 years, free to play for several years, and has developed a following of only 350,000 or so regular users. Contrary the spin of LL, interest in SL *is* declining and will most likely continue to decline as the number of choices increase.

    Might as well get a head start on exploring or creating the next virtual world that will capture the limelight.

  45. Fideaux Boucher says:

    I dunno but I still think what I said in post 22 still applies.

    If you aren’t doing anything questionable or shady, why would you be worried about being banned? I know I haven’t spent anytime worring about this issue because I have no intrest in greifing or allow some nitwit nerd the satisfiaction of getting under my skin when I am greifed.

    So if your worried about Lindens administering justice, how about just being a good guy, girl, furry, robot, whatever, and I think I can almost guarantee THIS WILL NEVER BE AN ISSUE!

    Remember: if it looks like greifing, it probably is. 😀

  46. JS says:

    I have a friend who was banned because an account with a stolen credit card gave him money. All and all a lot of accounts were suspended because of this 1 person who stole a credit card. It took a month for LL to sort it out and clear the innocent accounts. So in my opinion it is not just bad people who get suspended it is also people who get caught in the wash.

  47. Razor says:

    Content theft is not a big issue for Linden Labs. You rather get suspended for beeing nude in a PG area than for stealing items and selling them, even for months and even if the rips are on your name (so chances are big you stole them yourself). Just like the owner of that very honest brazilian sims that was never banned and several more well known thieves that are still around.

  48. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @45: If you aren’t doing anything questionable or shady, why would you be worried about being banned?

    For the exact same reason that you can get griefed without doing anything “questionable or shady”. It doesn’t take anything to walk into a club, pick an av that bugs you for some reason, and get them insta-banned by reporting them as underaged while you stand there and watch the person vanish from the sim. You seem to have the impression that people either submit ARs for legitimate reasons or that LL only takes actions on ARs that they have investigated fully. Neither assumption is correct. But in Second Life, the burden is on you to prove your innocence, generally *after* you’ve been locked out of your account. Heaven forbid you run a business.

  49. Fideaux Boucher says:

    I’d like to hear of an occurance when that happened then. Nobody I hang out would do such a thing, nor would I go to a place where such things happen.

    Stop worrying about what someone else is gonna do and take a little personal resposiblity for what happens to you. Choose your friends and venues carefully. Exercise restraint when something happens to you.

    I’ll never understand why people get so upset about things like this. What a non-issue.

  50. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Fideaux@49: “…nor would I go to a place where such things happen.”

    So you stay on a private island with restricted group-only access, then?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came

  51. Fideaux Boucher says:

    I dunno. If I thought things were that bad Argent I might. But in my experience they are not.

    As far as content theft goes, I agree that is greifing of the worst kind.

    Remember if it looks like greifing . . . 😀

  52. Argent Stonecutter says:

    That’s the whole point of Martin Niemöller’s speech, isn’t it?

    Whether things are that bad or not, you should be grateful for the ones who speak out, because one day you may need someone to speak out for you. Even if their concern is misguided, this time, they serve a purpose.

  53. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Ric@44: There’s nothing like Second Life, there’s nothing even close to it, yet. The only real competition for SL that I see on the horizon… is a spinoff or clone of Second Life.

  54. Coon Surya says:

    Linden Labs, I don’t think you would believe me if I told you the number of people I’ve met who have quit Second Life for being unjustly banned.

    We need a system like this.

  55. Fideaux Boucher says:

    I agree to your assertion Argent. I do hope I will never need someone to take up my cause for me. And people who have isssues (or feel they do) have the right to express themselves.

    But I still think I’ll never have this problem. 😀

  56. Sonof Marvin says:

    The Support portal is down? Anyone else having problems?

  57. Barbara says:

    What would help the whole AR process is better feedback to the people submitting the ARs.

    The problem with the incident report page is that on a busy day, the last 25 ARs seem to be gone before you know it. So, when you submit an AR, you have to keep checking and checking every few hours, and you still might miss it. Also, you have no way to determine if your AR was even processed.

    The second thing is that there is no closure. The person who writes an AR has no way to determine if it was processed but not acted upon or they just missed it in the report.

    So, 1: Make more than the last 25 ARs available. 2: Include the ARs where no action was taken, including why.

  58. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @35. LL WANT to outrageously overcharge you for a phone call that rarely proves to be of any help.

    @36 Everything is pretty much recorded at server level, this is what frustrates me about the apparent ineptitude of the Governance Team. All they need to do is pull up ONE log surrounding the immediate time that the AR was filed and the situation would quickly unfold as being accurate or inaccurate to the AR.

    And yes. if you get suspended for a day don’t even BOTHER raising a ticket, because 3-4 days is how long you’ll be waiting for a reply by which time you get a confused message back saying ‘Our records show that your account is active’.

    Ridiculous.

  59. Soap Clawtooth says:

    BTW

    @57: LL don’t have the kind of staff needed to run the support portal weighed against the number of residents in second life (this is originally why they abandoned the basic user and concentrate only on Premium Users). It is nigh on impossible for them to IM or Email every support ticket to find out what went on.

  60. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @49: I’d like to hear of an occurance when that happened then.

    I’ve had to evict a renter because he AR’d another renter overthey’d a sort of romantic meltdown or something. That’s plain and simple griefing. I lost two renters that day. I wouldnt be at all surprised if he tried to AR me, too, but I took the precaution of age verifying despite my distaste for that whole mess. I’ve actually read the ToS and have taken as many precautions as possible because my renters rely on me.

    Nobody I hang out would do such a thing,

    Cool.

    nor would I go to a place where such things happen.

    How would you even know? It’s not like it’s advertised.

    Choose your friends and venues carefully.

    That’s just not feasible for business owners. The people with the most to lose are also the ones at the most risk because you just can’t make everyone happy.

    @55: But I still think I’ll never have this problem.

    Maybe. I’m guessing you don’t run a business or get seriously involved with anybody, and the odds are in your favor when it comes to the random griefers.

    I prefer to handle things myself rather than crying to LL over every gripe. But there are some people who AR at the drop of a hat, and just because you don’t hear about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, or even that it hasn’t happened to you.

  61. Hulk Ah says:

    Yes, that is the logic second life seems to have

    If a few people decide to send abuse reports to you, you will get banned. Not much checkup will be done. If you report someone and claim he said he is a kid, that person will get banned too (without much checkup), But if you can PROOVE someone has intentionally stolen your creations, they never seem to be banned. This is what Linden Lab makes such a poor, very poor company. Being banned if being nude in PG sims? Come on, get a life man… The whole PG thing does not make much sense anyway in my opinion, but at least proven thieves should be banned forever. Second life claims alot about IP rights on their homepage, but they hardly do anything to enforce it. There are even bugs that make items full permisison, which most people do not know anything about. About half of the freebies on the grid is actually a freebie because of this bug. The people that spend most time on the grid are the creators. I think thieves have a greater impact our our second life experience than most griefers. People suddenly caging you while you are sucked up in the sky. Annoying, yes. But not for more than a few seconds. I can always teleport away. The negative effect thieves have is something that lasts for months, years….Linden lab should focus on things that are important, and not on stuff like banning people that are nude in PG sims….c o m e o n …I have never met anyone in second life that only visits PG sims or even cares about a sim being PG or not.

  62. Dex says:

    I have tried to register for SL but have waited over 12 hours without receieving a confirmation email. SL support is no help so i am posting here in hope of finding help or an answer.

  63. Dex says:

    I have tried to register for SL and have never received the cnfirmation email. Is this due to the server rollout? I cannot find any help on SL support.

  64. Soap Clawtooth says:

    Technically PG for 18+ ventures in the us comes under ‘R’ rating. Which allows for everything except for penetrative sex. So you’re right that the PG rule is shaky at best.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if the Lab maintained that they used the BBFC rating system on account of the fact they have an office in Britain.

  65. Dex says:

    sorry for double (now triple) post.

  66. Firebird Nightfire says:

    It may not seem that way to some people, but we are lucky Linden Labs takes an active part in policing its TOS. Can you imagine the chaos that would result if there were NO recourse beyond rough justice?

    Read here for just such a situation:
    http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle_vv.html

    Now, granted, this exact situation could never occur in SL, but there are plenty of other things that could.

  67. Fulano De Tal says:

    @Fideaux (#45,#49,#55) – All you have to do to be a target is be a successful businessman. At some point someone will file an AR against you, either a visitor or a customer or a competitor. It might even be a random “griefing by AR” incident. Maybe someone will purchase something from you using stolen $L. Your attitude is a good one, and it is generally the right approach. Avoid trouble and it tends to avoid you. But when I discovered how trigger-happy LL is with abuse reports I nearly quit SL over it. No thorough investigation was made (if at all) when I was suspended, and seemingly no thought was given to the fact that I had been a premium member for two years, a land owner, a business owner, and good citizen.

    @44 – You are right about LL slowly losing its market leader position. And yes, they are worried about competitors (based on recent interviews with SL).

    Their weaknesses are plain to see, and handling abuse is just one of their weak spots. Just what is it that distinguishes SL from other 3D social networks? Their physics engine? No. Voice? No. Avatars? No. Database? No way. SL is just one of the first and one of the biggest. The only early distiguishing features were the way SL handles content creation, scripting, and permissions. But those are easily reproduced (and are being copied now).

    LL needs more structure and more professionalism. Those are bad words at LL, but they need to step up, stop pretending to be hippies, and act like the corporation that they are. Customer service must become a higher priority!

  68. Blinders Off says:

    I’ll tell ya the worst case of Linden Lab heavy-hand I’ve ever seen.

    A good friend of mine, brilliant builder, excellent designer, had some RL stuff come up and was out of computer access for a few months.

    He wasn’t aware he owed Linden Lab some bucks. Not much either. Piddly amount.

    Linden Lab, instead of suspending his account until he returned… actually DELETED the account.

    All of his builds, all of his inventory, all of his designs and all the money he’d spent, down the drain.

    If I’da been him, I’da sued their butts off. “Pay us or we’ll trash your av”? That’s just slimeball mentality (not just poor judgement… poor character). They shoulda known better. They guy woulda happily paid them if he’d known he owed ’em. Trashing an entire avatar over twenty bucks is inexcusable.

  69. APinkSwan Beauchamp says:

    I know of three cases where someone was AR’d and unjustly banned. The first happened when I was away due to the death of my mother. I left an estate manager in charge, she was playing around, as she always does, on my very own sims. She put fire on one of the resident’s parcels, which she had also done many times before. The two of them would play like that back and forth. Anyway, a complete stranger visiting MY estate reported her and she was suspended for 1 day. It also took 2 months for her to regain access to the forums. Not one person would listen to her OR the resident whose land she was playing on. Another case…..Another estate manager of mine was repro’ing something for LL. Apparently, there was not communication amongst the powers that be that he was doing this and he was immediately banned. I had to touch base with LL and explain the situation and he was fairly quickly unbanned. One other case….My estate manager was AR’d and suspended for sending out notices in various land/buy groups. We do this every single day without issue, as these groups are designed for announcements. We ONLY do this once a day to all of those types of groups. He was able to get himself unbanned, but also told he should not do it again. It was explained over and over again to a Linden that these groups are designed for this and this is part of our business. This happened a few days ago and his access to the forums has yet to resolved.

    Okay, my point? Why do we have to appeal when someone is supposed to be investigating the AR thoroughly? This was obviously not done with the 3 cases I have mentioned. Also, even when appealed and possibly corrected, there appears to be a problem regaining access to the forums.

    Let me say this….I left a very responsible person in charge on my OWN land and estate when my mother passed. I will never ever forget that LL unjustly suspended her and without a thorough investigation!

  70. Mangana says:

    Further evidence of the decline of second life: It has been 24 hours since this blog started, and there are only 70 posts, many from repeat posters. On top of it all, this is an emotionally charged topic, where you would expect lots of comments.

    Remember the days when you had to hurry to get your comment written before all 150 spots filled up?

  71. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @69

    I keep saying this. Because they don’t assess the situation fully. At all.

  72. Dark_Spyro_003 says:

    Greetings,

    I hope Linden Labs reads the commenting.
    To be short, I agree that the ‘Abuse Report’ system IS being abused. It is being used for grief. I think I read somewhere that abusing the abuse report system is a bannable offense. Aswell as alot of other things.
    I’ve reported about 18 people for griefing, and only two cases this far were ever closed, and all others probably thrown in the garbage.

    Dear lindens, please wake up, and heed the call of the residents who actually FEAR griefers because they are reporting the victims as the griefers.

    Dear lindens, please wake up, and stop banning without there is any proper prove given. I could walk up to someone as Luc Aubret, say he said in open chat that he is 11 years old and using his father’s credit card, he’d be banned without investigation. Please investigate matters, before you draw a conclusion.

    Dear lindens, please wake up, the governance team is much to small. Please start recruiting *very trustable* residents for this, if needed.

    Dear lindens, please wake up, your support team is to small, or works to slow. Please try to get more employees for this sector, or make sure the employees are actually working.

    Thank you,
    That is all I wanted to say.

    -Christophe003 Carter

  73. Ryu Darragh says:

    @17, Ron Crimson. I can tell you for a certain fact the JLU (and *ALL* other self styled SL Police wannabees) are not affiliated, supported or accepted by Linden Land and *none* of them are given access to the Admin tools, ever.

    They are not a replacement for the Linden governance team and are not called by them.

    Despite the fact that the Lindens *have* granted access to the Admin tools to (apparent) non-Lindens in the past, they have always been either Linden amployees in an Alt or a trusted individual known to them.

    All that groups, like the SL Army, JLU and others can do is use griefing tools and tactics to play act like heros in SL.

    The best of these groups, who simply use mob (large crowd surrounds griefer and tells him/her/it to stop) tactics, are still disruptive and are not welcomed most areas I know.

    #37, Name Witheld, I agree. It’s possible to abuse the AR system. But, the Lindens do use a rudimentary filter, of sorts. If you’ve never abused the system or clogged it by filing countless AR on trivial matters, they tend to listen to you a bit better.

    Perhaps the Lindens need a J-Team or CSI-Team, eh ? 😛

  74. Mordoz Valois says:

    The thing about AR and Banning seems very similar to real life frivolous lawsuits that happen all the time. Some aren’t so frivolous but all are investigated…and even then mistakes are made. People sued for everything they have over misunderstandings, or revenge. As far as I can see it, how can LL fix this when we cant even fix it in rl? Seems very pointless.

    and since a long time ago, most figured out the blog replies are mostly about venting since it is rare for a linden to care enough to read and reply..and if reply, it is usual sterile and useless response.

    I myself have been the patsy in a few arguments, just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time ..walked into an emotionally charged area one day and BAM! reported for “snooping” well obviously I wasn’t banned, but still frivolous AR seems to happen most when emotions are running high and we all know how how inaccurate and insane people can get when under such distress. I myself have had to exercise a great deal of personal discipline to restrain anger when I felt attacked in sl. I left the general area then stepped away from my computer and did my best to calm down…then once I was calm, I was able to think of the reality of the situation and then respond more appropriately.

    Also keep in mind that LL has said time and again that they do not police “domestic disputes” yet I hear people getting banned from sl sometimes when involved in a very domestic type of conflict. Should both parties cool off and talk again when calm? YES! should they be banned from sl just because they were hotheaded? Definitely NOT!
    Good people do make mistakes and really should not be penalized for just being human. Give a hothead a chance to cool off first, then if that person after claiming to be calm still insists on griefing you or insulting you, well TP away and mute them. simple as that..yes there are instances where it is much more complicated. There always exceptions to the rule, any rule. but those are usually extremes.

    What a true perma-ban from sl should be are those who truly intend to corrupt and destroy peoples sense of security and peace of mind…a kind of SL terrorist. meant to place fear (in this case not of anything physical, but still has similar effect). This goes the same for content thieves. They all are no better than terrorists. Acting like bad little children and rarely getting disciplined and often allowed to return after their “three strikes”

    But this is just my experience….then again , I hear it form others as well. Just be yourself. And if your reputation falls because you are just being yourself, there is something either very wrong with how your true self is, or most likely there is something inherently wrong with LL and the way they “govern” anything. Thar’s my two $L 🙂

  75. robertltux mccallen says:

    a suggestion for folks with stores a couple stores i know have either automatic or manual ways to do a redelivery of a product or products.

    if you have a Sign/Post/Flower Pot/Whatever that can do the redelivery
    your problem is solved(assumes the RD works)

  76. JetZep Zabelin says:

    Just remember, this posting by Jon Linden is about the Knowledge Base and so we shouldn’t expect a response here regarding the Abuse Reporting system.

  77. Ripley says:

    http://mwituni.com/

    LL had better clean up their act, lol…. if Mwituni (link above) is real, LL is screwed 😛

  78. Happy Camper says:

    uMMMM wHAT IS THE jlu?

  79. rendom_p ackland says:

    a SL ‘police’ group from what i can tell

  80. Happy Camper says:

    TY Rendom.
    Unless the avatar has Linden as a last name I pay them no mind.
    I banned a SL Police from my land and he told me he had a Linden on the phone threatening me. He is still banned and I am still here. 🙂

  81. So, here’s a thought: How about an internal court system. Y’know, trial by peers and all that. There are already several locations with lawyers offering pro bono assistance with various First Life issues.

    Why not have it set up that appeals are based not only by a Linden Lab employee, but that we residents can also have a chance to see and interact with the accused? After all, “It’s our world…”

    How to implement such a thing? Could be like the lottery system in place like here in the US, ‘Dear Joe/Jane Resi, your presense has been request in the matter of … (blah, blah).’ Yes, I’m well aware that some folks would likely just ignore such a request. However, it’s another chance to get us more involved.

    One thing I think would need to be in place would be a time limit. First Life trials can take weeks, even months, at a time. If it were to be a trial by peers (cough, appeal, I mean), then it shouldn’t take more than a hour or two. Each gets their chance at proving or disproving the issue.

    Granted, some things; like a LL employee being nuked off Help Island, for exmaple, are just plain ignorant to attempt to appeal and there should also be a filter for the dross.

  82. Wayfinder Wishbringer says:

    @ 77 Ripley. You make a very valid point in one sentence… one that LL would do well to heed.

    Here’s another one you may find interesting….

    http://wayfinderwishbringer.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/the-virtual-food-fight/

    It’s been foretold. It’s been expected. It’s here. It’s basically “wake up or die” time for LL.

  83. Wayfinder says:

    @ 81 Jaysen… sorry for the double post, just read yours (doesn’t look like people are beating the doors down to post though). 😀

    2 years ago I recommended just such a step to LL. They complained that they couldn’t hire enough employees to moderate SL. I recommended to them they set up a volunteer based court system in which users could file grievances against others in addition to the Abuse Report system. This was needed because for a while (and probably still) users were entering into “contracts”… hiring others do to work, then either canceling the project or refusing to pay for the work done. LL refused to do anything about that. And they refused to consider the suggestion too.

    So yup you’re right. Some sort of moderative system is needed because right now on SL, there is very little accountability. It would be nice to have a system in place which would have the power to handle slander, abuse, theft, harassment and the other things that we are legally protected from in RL. Since we can’t punch someone in the nose here people think they can get away with murder. But thus far, LL has presented nothing to help solve the problem and as is pointed out by the majority of posts above… the current Abuse system is itself often abused.

  84. uh-oh says:

    @82 Wayfinder I really enjoyed reading your articule that you mention above. I found it very imformative and right to the point.

    @80 Happy Camper I agree, I have had some run ins with the so called SL police in my sim also who feel they are someone special too. You can ban anyone from your sim or just lock it down and not let anyone in. I do not know why they feel they are special because they are some wanna be cop. this one SL police was harassing one of the models in the old store and I sent him flying into the ocean in the sim next to mine.I guess he wanted to be a corrupt cop. 🙂
    Like you said, unless they have the last name linden, they are no differant than you and I.

  85. Soap Clawtooth says:

    What is needed are ‘Moderators’. People who are given the ability to suspend people for a maximum of 24 hours and send a recommendation for further action if it is needed.
    Where would these Moderators come from?
    Easy: the plentiful supply of happy happy Mentors. Mentors are an active part of the community in helping out so many people, but also have to deal with crap. What Linden Lab needs is people in world who can assess the issue on location, not just some no-brain who looks at the screenshot in the AR and goes, ah, banned. Rather than looks at any of the pertinent information stored in the server at that time.

    I vote for Moderators to be brought into play.

  86. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @77 and everyone else.

    I checked that link (mwituni) and submitted a random vote on it just to see what the results were, they are as follows.

    IT’S NEEDED, BRING IT ASAP: 86.7% (26 votes)

    Welcome, It may be useful: 10% (3 votes)

    Unsure it’s needed: 3.3% (1 vote)

    Not interested in this product: 0% (0 votes)

    I would agree that Linden Lab needs to wake up, and fast. The vultures circle, circle they do.

    Not another MMO! 0% (0 votes)

  87. Ron Crimson says:

    /me hopes Ryu @ 73 is right… but I appreciate your reassuring words. Come to think of it, I never had a problem with JLU or similar groups ever again. Phew. 🙂

  88. Joker Opus says:

    Note to some people:
    Getting banned from Second Life (officially) and getting banned from a parcel/region are different. Lindens will not accept appeals from users who have been banished from independent parcels.

    I say this because I have read some comments about people getting banned from User-Owned land. Anywho, bye!

  89. Argent Stonecutter says:

    mwituni is the first one other than Opensim that looks like it might eventually provide something I care to be involved in. Without universal in-world building and scripting … it doesn’t really matter to me how popular it is, or how much “money” I might be able to make out of it from newbies, it doesn’t do anything for me.

  90. Wayfinder Wishbringer says:

    @ 84 UhOh. Glad you liked it. Now if LL would just give it a read… ; )

    @ 85 & 86 Soap Clawtooth: you’re absolutely right. That’s been suggested too but surely bears re-suggested here. For years, professional forums have proven that volunteer-moderators work. I’ve seen flamer boards that were nothing but drama centers, and I’ve seen pro magazine forums where people knew they either had to watch their step or lose their posting privileges. And know what? Moderated boards work just fine. They’re great. So you’re 110% right Soap, that is not only a possible solution, is is THE time-proven solution. The trick of course, is to make sure the moderators themselves aren’t drama queens. But that can be done with some basic screening and– if that moderator receives enough user complaints– removing that person as a moderator. Cos in any system, even the moderators need to be moderated. An appeals process works well there too. : )

    Also Soap, I visited that same site and yeah, amazing that almost 87% of the votes said “something else is needed”. That expresses heavy dissatisfaction with SL and like you said, that is something Linden Lab needs to recognize. Like I said in the Virtual Food Fight article, they’re out of time to mess around any more. Linden Lab is either going to have to start doing the job right, or someone else is going to take over that job– and the market. Too bad LL didn’t realize that fact 3 years ago when we first started warning them of the situation. Now we have (oooh pretty) Windlight and Dazzle and Sculpties and Flexis and Glows… on a platform that can’t even deliver group notecards correctly. NOT a case of planning for future competition.

  91. uh-oh says:

    85 Soap Clawtooth Says:Easy: the plentiful supply of happy happy Mentors.
    You are on the right track provided they screen the mentors better. I know of one mentor who is the alt of one of my ex business partners who pretty much destroyed our store because she was stealing content and textures from other creators. She is now running around as a mentor selling skins and clothing while using her mentor status to trick people into thinking she is honest.

  92. Warthog Jun says:

    just tried your appeals process. Its still very broken and one sided.

  93. FireFox Bancroft says:

    Most AR’s from JLU and other so called “SL Police” usually largely go ignored by LL, at least in my experience and run-ins with them, I’m still here and they aren’t, so what does that tell you?

    Even Torley Linden agrees and says to just mute them. Actually he said that about any Linden impostors, or anyone claiming to know a Linden (kind of moot point since we all know Torley :))but the same rule applies to these “police” “moral crusaders” what have you. They’re blowing hot air so just ignore them.

  94. sinda petrov says:

    Y’know, I’m part of a group that is producing machinima in SL…a series called “Grid Knights” about a dysfunctional copshop and it’s inhabitants. All the characters dress like uniform officers or investigators and carry weapons – although unloaded and strictly as props. The plots are pretty silly, mostly a cross between “Police Squad” and “CSI” mostly parody, some soap-oprea drama. Our “actors” try not to interact with too many AV’s and stick to mostly abandoned land for for our production needs.

    My question is should I or my cast have to worry about an anti-police sentiment and possible griefing because we “look” like cops? We don’t play cop…well we do, but never directed towards another AV that isn’t in our cast.

    Or am I going to get AR’d because someone has a hate for cops in uniform ( although I must say, I look pretty hot in a tight skirt and uniform shirt and shouldr holster…)

    We don’t do AR’s, we don’t interfere, and we don’t make or enforce rules..should I worry about getting AR’d or griefed into a production shutdown?

    Just thinkin….

  95. Soap Clawtooth says:

    @90 Indeed you’re right. I remember it 3 years ago. Too bad LL wasted their time and effort on Windlight and THEN Dazzle, rather than compounding the two into one full – bug free (cough) – release.
    If you read the blog section on mwituni, you’ll find that 90% of the blog comments come from SL users crying out for something new and that 90% of that figure comes from Content Creators.

  96. DR Dahlgren says:

    There is no simple answer on how to police SL. The AR system has changed back and fourth several times since I have been here, from no discernable responce (even with included chat or IM logs, for example a person stating they are under age) to immediate content removal and assumed ban ( the offending avatar gone).

    At this time, I know that a few AR’s for griefing objects (batman for example) seem to get a good responce and the objects are gone fairly quickly. Thats good.

    If the above examples about residents being banned for age issues, without any immediate evidence (chat IM log) are true, that has to change. We all understand that LL is VERY sensitive about the age issue, but investigation before action should be the rule.

    It is a common perception in the U.S. that many private security guards are people who desire to police power, but don’t qualify to be real police. What then are those who want to be police in a virtual world?? People who don’t even qualify to be security guards??? OMG Just ignore them, and hopefully, they will go away.

    As to mentors, just like SL, that group is the product of too many members too fast. It is a good idea gone horribly wrong. I know a few very good ones, and I truly understand Lexi is trying to make it work. But my experience led me to leave that group as I found most to be completely unqualified, caring only about the Tag and status, or desiring the “police” power they seemed to think the tag gave them. I won’t even start on the ones taking advantage of the noobs they were supposed to be helping. A few good mentors, posted in areas that people can go to for help, would be the answer in my mind. And Clean Up the “Welcome” areas and HIPs. If I got dropped into Ahern today as a new resident, I would click Close and never look back. A few QUALIFIED people with limited power to return / eject in the areas they are posted, like HIP, could really make a difference.

    So whats the point of all this?
    No resident or group should hold any kind of power outside their own private parcel.
    Investigation before action should be the rule for any disciplinary actions taken against residents.
    Just as in RL, filing false AR’s should result in actions against the filer.
    Rethink the Mentors group completely.

    But what do I know?
    DRD

  97. uh-oh says:

    @95 Soap Clawtooth If you read the blog section on mwituni, you’ll find that 90% of the blog comments come from SL users crying out for something new”
    I read that also and noticed the same thing. I also noticed a few of them are sim and island owners wanted to know when they will start up so they can sell their land before the market is flooded with even more un saleable land.
    I like the concept that this service offers as well as protections from Griefers, vlolence and illegal content that SL seems to be full of.
    If I didn’t know any better, this service has read our comments and concerns and decided to create a game that improves the problems that SL has. At least someone is listening.

    @96 DR Dahlgren Says: “We all understand that LL is VERY sensitive about the age issue,” I disagree with htis one. I helped a friend of mine sign up for an account after upgrading his computer and I was surprised to see the new sign up process doesn’t ask for your RL name or age, nor did I see anything stating that you have to be 18+ to create an account unless you click on the small link to read the TOS before you hit send which is not a requirement to do so. you only have to agree to abide by the TOS and as we all know most griefers could care less about the TOS.

  98. Curtis Dresler says:

    Uh-oh, when they ask for your birth date (you know, the drop down menu in the middle of the page), it generally is enough for them to figure out your age (I know, complicated, and requires all that subtracting and counting on fingers and things).

    Generally, if you are deliberately misrepresenting who you are, not reading the TOS won’t help much. I don’t think they ask for names anymore, but then, that was an area that they didn’t allow you to update either (so the TOS required you to make changes and they had info you couldn’t change). I had three s’s in my last name with one avatar and it irritated me every time I changed payment methods.

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