Mainland supply on hold until July

The average price per meter is the key metric we observe to decide levels of mainland supply. It takes account of all resident-to-resident sales per day, but excludes a number of data items such as zero value sales (when friends swap land around), Governor Linden sales (including Auctions themselves) and all private estate sales.

We also measure sales by groups and those by individuals separately although at the moment the average price for both is similar (group sales being as much as L$1 per meter lower on average).

It will be no secret to those that have bought or sold land recently, that the average price of mainland has been falling. In 2007 we managed the price down slowly from a high figure of L$12 per meter to a more reasonable L$6 to L$8. It then rose a little as we reached March of this year before falling consistently since then. In recent days we have seen it dip below L$6 per meter which we feel is a little low.

There are a number of factors behind this recent drop, not least the large number of Openspace regions sold through the new Land Store and the changes in island pricing. Of course the supply of new Mainland at auction is another factor.

At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land and are sensitive to price fluctuations related to our auctions of new land. To allow the market to absorb the land recently added to the grid, we will be suspending whole region auctions for the next four weeks after which we will review the situation again (on or around the 11th July).

We will, however, be continuing to recycle the smaller abandoned parcels via the auctions, and you may see more of those plots becoming available than usual. As the next few weeks go by we will continue to keep you informed via the blog.

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145 Responses to Mainland supply on hold until July

  1. Blazr Aeon says:

    time to buy some mainland while its cheap!

  2. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Would it be possible to have a graph of the prices, with the mean and some measure of a realistic range (say the 10th and 90th percentiles)? The land prices for parcels that seem worthwhile buying always seem to be significantly above the “average price”, and the prices for these parcels seemed to peak closer to L$60/m2 than L$12/m2.

  3. Michi Lumin says:

    (laughs) Yeah, that’s hilarious, looking at $24/m2 mainland land adjacent to our area. L$100,000 for 3800m2! Cheap! Just recently, land in Tehama went for $36/m2 and $42/m2.

    Are you -sure- that calculation is right? Or maybe sections of the mainland should be divided somewhat? It’s a pretty big place, and it seems that land prices, to say the least, “vary slightly”. (more like, vary by orders of mangnitude.)

    I’d love to see some mainland land added near us that was actually purchaseable by mere mortals.

  4. Michi Lumin says:

    @2 — Amen to that Argent.

    I dont know where these <L$6/m2 plots are, but they must be under a swamp somewhere.

    In a basement.

    Bisected by flashing rotating cubes that smell odd.

    Kind of sad when I saw the L$24/m2 mainland plot and said to myself, “Huh, the price really went down on that” – seeing as it dropped from L$42/m2.

  5. Soy N says:

    Good. After the whole thing that was created a couple months ago at least you realize that you have caused us lots of damage and try to recover.

    Thanks

  6. Barb says:

    So you are sensitive to the land pricing but we can expect to see the land abandoned which has been put on the back burner go up in amounts higher than usual? sigh…

    Here’s another attempt to get these two questions answered which have been ignored in tickets and direct questions…

    1. What is the plan, with specifics, regarding grandfathered 195/mo tiered sims?

    2. How many designated owner changes are we allotted in say a month w/o being charged? I’ve been told by one Linden that there is not charge for this and another Linden has told me changes are free within reason.

    I’m more interested in question1 above. I’ve asked for an official response to this question and perhaps I missed it but I’m still waiting.

  7. Escort DeFarge says:

    This whole mainland land issue sounds ripe for some kind of creative premium member bonus/attraction – say some kind of a concession if you go premium to buy land — as long as the land isn’t resold — just a thought…

  8. Hulk Ah says:

    Good to see the lindens do something to support their residents, although i think it is a little too accidentally to see this post is done *only* 2 hours after the previous post which involves to many negative posts. it kind of seems like a cover-up to me .

    “quickly guys, another post. this is not good for our resident friendly image”

    lol

  9. Mishka Butuzova says:

    How can paragraph 3 and paragraph 5 of this post both be true? In what previously unknown dimension does deliberately managing a 50% drop in the value of someone’s investment constitute “respecting” that investment?

    C’mon guys — this kind of fuzzy, self-contradictory communication just serves to further dilute resident confidence, which isn’t exactly at an all-time peak.

    As to the substance — putting a hold on mainland land supply — good news!

  10. Jonash says:

    @8 Hulk

    hahaha you’re so right

  11. Blazr Aeon says:

    @4
    I seen the price drop,I’ve found a load of 1024 plots for 3000L$(3000-4000) You just gotta keep looking :)!

  12. Richie Freund says:

    Too much parcels are around for $4-5/m2 in the new continent. And thats the reason for the fallen prices in the other continents. The BayCity sales from the landlords helped to to rise the average to $6/m2. So we have now 20.000 Sims for 50.000 users online, right? I doubt, that the market will absorb the land recently added to the grid. So, as land is nearly free now, you should make the next step and lower the monthy tier too. That costs are disproportional to the cheap land. Disproportional to the competing OpenGrids too. If the tier gets down too, like the landprices done, Land would be much more attractive to the residents than an ongoing fallen landprice.

  13. Thanks Jack,

    I think we’d all like to see abandoned parcels come to auction far more than watching the mainland sprawl away with unused and neglected patches spread willy-nilly across the landscape. It gives the mainland more integrity as a liveable, usable area and allows land to sell down cautiously without such a sharp impact on the economy.

    Best,

    Dirk

  14. Desmond Shang says:

    Wise decision; I’m glad people are watching.

    As we have seen, just about any pricing change sends shockwaves through the economy.

    I would love to see a gradual transition toward long term competitive pricing, as I see the (relatively) high tier rates spurring off-grid competition.

    In time, I too recognise that other grids are vital to the growth of the Metaverse and will raise all ships, so to speak. But if the pricing disparity stays high, the newer grids may suddenly and deeply erode the profit margins of the main grid. Which is an economic shock I believe is coming, and I would like to see us survive long term.

  15. Eris says:

    @7 Yup, I agree – but I would offer new Premium accounts a small parcel, say 512 or even 1024m for free for a limited time, say three months. You wouldn’t be allowed to split, join, rent or trade it but in all other respects it’s yours for 3 months. Make a new mini-mainland of these parcels and call it – Noob Hill

    After your 3 months is up, well it’s time for you to find your own place, make your own way in the world… Your parcel then gets recycled for the next new Premium member and that way Noob Hill never needs to be huge, just big enough to cope with new Premium members in their first 3 months.

    Seems to me Second Life moves onto a whole other level when you own some land, it gives you a stake in things. Land sales and rentals might take a hit for the first 3 months but ultimately it should stimulate the land economy as more people get a taste for owning land. Short-term it would help stimulate the wider economy as more premium-noobs buy their first house and furniture. Plus they get to practise building in a low-grief environment surrounded by other premium members, not avoiding any unverified griefers in a sandbox.

    Might work…

  16. leliel Mirihi says:

    @9 Mishka Butuzova

    12L/m2 comes out to about $3000 for a full mainland sim, at that price you could almost buy two islands at the old price or one island and 5 months of tier. Your “Investment” was over valued.

  17. Upward Flow says:

    I still would like to see a page where residents can see the actual metrics figures that LL uses to make decisions. 6 L$/m – where does that figure come from exactly? The latest metrics published show May Avg L$ Paid per Square Meter to be 3.2341, with June MTD average of 3.0485 – where do these figures come from?

    In the past couple of weeks I have also seen days when there was in excess of 500,000m of land for sale which was priced below the L$ Auction starting prices – what’s up with that?

    We have always asked for moderation in Land Supply, Second Life has an economy with many people investing work, time, and real money into it. It would be great if there were adjustments to land supply made on at least a weekly basis, instead of dumping so many sims on the market that it becomes flooded, then stopping suddenly for a month of nothing, then who knows what. It is sudden change that hurts the overall economy, lowers the morale of residents, and makes for a less than desireable experience. Moderation is the key – the residents can all see the effects every day, it would be nice to see LL respond in a way to ease changes instead of making them so abrupt.

  18. Michi Lumin says:

    eh, are we sure what’s relevant and good for the new continent is relevant and good for the old continent?

  19. SL Toll says:

    Jack, I agree with Upward, could you get some clarity about the L$6 per sqm
    The June economic being at L$3.0485

    Are you saying that L6$ is the L$3.0485 adjusted from zero value sales, estate and auctions? And therefore the numbers published are not actual reliable metrics on the economic statistics?

    It seems to me this numbers are still not quite realistic where I don’t see much land for sale at less $L6. And I can’t think that so many people would be selling land at a loss. (below land auction base price that is…) Or in fact are they cutting their loss because LL is releasing way too much land?

    Are there also eventual L$1 symbolic sales to exclude there? Or could there possibly be another additional discrepancy in group to group sales, or individuals switching land around from group to group?

    I would suggest an additional “Avg L$/sqm” in the “Land for Sale Today” section.
    Excluding the above L$0, L$1, etc… That would I think give us a more accurate picture on a daily snapshot basis. Thanks

  20. Mishka Butuzova says:

    @ 16 …. leliel, I’m not sure what you’re saying, but my little investments in SL have done rather well, thank you, since I sold most everything before the crash. I’m not whining about my losses, since I’ve none of consequence to whine about. But friends and acquaintances did lose significant (to them) sums of money as LL “managed” a 50% drop in the average price of land over the course of just a few months, and some of them have packed up and left SL, probably for good, as a result.

    Were the US Federal Reserve Bank to purposefully engineer a similar collapse in the US economy, I’m thinking there would be rather severe consequences for those involved. (Some would argue that I’m mistaken here, since Mr. Bush has engineered a rather significant setback with no apparent consequences to himself, but I digress …)

    It is always easy to declare something was overvalued with the benefit of hindsight. Not as easy looking forward. And it is easy to dismiss others’ losses with, “Hey, you took your risk and you lost.” There’s truth in that of course, but there is also truth in a point of view that when people extend trust, it behooves us not to wantonly abuse that trust today if we want that trust tomorrow.

    I want SL to continue to be a thriving, vibrant, growing world. That will require a stable platform and a stable, diverse economy. Really, we’ve neither at the moment. Building the confidence of the present residents in the future of SL is a crucial part of building both of those.

    At least freezing mainland growth might begin to address another issue by increasing the population density of SL which is presently in Faroe Islands range — lovely place I’m sure, but not exactly a beehive of retail activity. (Not kidding …. I did the math one day, and I didn’t even discount for bots and afk campers!)

  21. Ann Otoole says:

    The cheap land is a donut but the donut hole with the extortion ad farm costs lots and lots per sqm. But hey it has a bush on it so it is a “park” and thus LL will not recognize the fact it is a form of blatant extortion.

    All LL has to do is terminate all the ad farm accounts. The rest of SL would get the message it is no longer acceptable practice.

  22. Pingback: Once again, does LL have a plan, clue whatever? Mainland Supply on hold - SLUniverse Forums

  23. Marianne McCann says:

    Glad to see some moves going on: mainland is rife with yellow.

  24. Cinco Pizzicato says:

    An ‘amen’ for Ann Otoole @ 21. 🙂

    I agree with others, too: This announcement makes no sense. If LL respsects the investments of its residents, then there wouldn’t be a whole new continent. There would instead be reasonable land policies that treat the landscape as a landscape and address density. But LL seems to have chosen the sweet, easy tier payments over the work required to add value to the experience of SL. It’s the same old ‘Web 2.0’ mindset: The users will pay for the opportunity to create the value they’re buying.

    My account is newer than Heterocea. I mention this because I recently learned that there was a whole backstory to that continent when it was unveiled. Magellan Linden had discovered the place, his ship crashed in a parcel in Columbia (you can go there and see it), and there’s even a ‘blog about this whole adventure.

    What happened to those days, Jack?

  25. Argent Stonecutter says:

    I say… bring back “First Land”, and a revamped personal bonus and a revamped dwell. The current economy in SL is imbalanced, it’s got no emulation of the service sector except for “camping”.

    First Land would not need to go for L$1/m2, but it should be cheap enough to encourage land ownership and seem like a reasonable bonus for going premium.

    Then dwell would *only* come from premium members… people who have an “income” in SL… and would be a straightforward percentage of the premium member’s fees. If your land is what a premium member paying SL $10 a month is spending all his time at, you’d get 2.5% of that $10/month as a commission for keeping that $10/month coming in. If he spends his time elsewhere, then it would be split.

    But the same thing would happen for the people around him, another 2.5% would be distributed proportionally to the people near him during the month. Commission for encouraging him to spend time in SL and keep paying those fees.

    It wouldn’t need a lot of complex calculations. Divide $10.00 by 30 days, take 5%, multiply by the exchange rate… and you get about 4-5 lindens a day. Every so often, and specifically when a premium user logs out or change sims, the sim looks to see if there’s any undistributed L$ that they should have shed by now, and it distributes it based on the parcels you spent time in and the people around you. It doesn’t have to be precise or accurate, it only has to work out statistically over the long run.

    The idea is to encourage the development of attractions for people who are paying Linden Labs money, and at the same time bring back the simulation of the service economy that the reputation bonus and dwell were supposed to be, but without the non-linearities that made them so ready for abuse.

  26. There is little doubt that more people would become Premium, if, for $8 a month , they were getting a rectangular 2048sqm of land instead of an L shaped 1,536.

    Lets bump up all the land allocations per $.

    Additional Land (over 512 sq meters) (In square meters)
    Monthly land use fee*
    FROM—————————–TO
    512 m2 ———-US$5—$4—-512———(+512)—-lower start–($4 teazer)
    1,024 m2 ——-US$8——–1,536———( +512)
    2,048 m2 ——-US$15——3,572———(+512)
    4,096 m2 ——-US$25——7,680———(+512)
    8,192 m2——-US$40—-15,872———(+512)
    16,384 m2—–US$75—-32,256———(+512)
    32,768 m2——US$125–65,024———(+512)
    65,536 m2——US$195 ——-gone

    So that when u add on the 512 (especially for the lower tiers) u dont end up with an odd shaped lot (on average)

    The steeper increase in land allocation per $ (above) will encourage much more upgrading to a higher tier, and be cost effective.
    More people will sign on to become premium when they see the price decrease. Then the initial hurdle will have been overcome for many of them to eventually upgrade to higher tiers.
    Seeing land BECOMING more affordable (instead of more expensive) will also encourage this.

    AV LAG COST
    As long as lag does not get better — then more features must be available to premium members with LESS to non-premium. (LL needs to know — (and earn a $ from) — of Island subscribers for them to be treated better, in this way, as premium. And pay their share of LL’s cost of fixing lag). MANY-PRIM-COUNT attachments need to be included here .

  27. I just bought and then sold (realized I didnt need it) 1024. The buying and selling price was 3.3L/sqm. The other land I purchased just a few months ago cost at least 9-10L/sqm. 6l/sqm is the higher end. Cheap mainland at 3L/sqm is available.

  28. Cherry Czervik says:

    @4 Well, this is how I bought a quarter sim back again having given up the expense of partial private island ownership (without the Concierge benefits whilst paying more than Concierge tier if it had been direct to LL but let’s ignore that, and hi there Jack ltns!).

    That land was certainly cheap or I think I’d have wandered off this virtual coil by now.

    I look forward to supply/demand levelling back out and maybe that will address the bleak empty sims in so many places. Where are all these people logged in, after all 🙂 (Let’s ignore the bots of course).

  29. Calin McKinney says:

    I think the problem is that LL is not in touch with their current and past customers and their investments in land. New mainland land supply would be a simple issue to deal with if they really wanted to. Just allow all residents to auction their own land on the land auction website, and keep tabs on the average price, then LL could just release abandoned parcels and some new whole sims at those same average sale prices along with everyone else, so that buying new land was at the same price as buying current resident land. Then small increases in new land would slowly reduce average prices if they felt it was going too high. I think the problem is LL wants to get as many people paying tier as possible, so they don’t mind mass land releases at any price (such as the new mainland sims that were going with almost no bids), at the expense of land prices across the grid and the respect of their long time and invested customers.

    Sorry guys, but I think your mass land release tactics stink and just show your greed. Well….you may get short term gains…but will lose long term investments and committments. The most important part of a business relationship is respect for those you do business with and your reputation and ability to be trusted. You are losing that with me, sadly, as I have loved this game for a very long time.

  30. Cherry Czervik says:

    @15 – hey here’s a thought. Why not make it a perk that if you go premium you can buy FIRST LAND at 512L$ for 512 sqm. Maybe there’s some abandoned land that you could parcel up as FIRST LAND to sell. Wouldn’t that be neat?

  31. Cherry Czervik says:

    Whoops I should say that the sarcasm was not aimed at poster of 15 🙂

  32. Peswold Desoto says:

    I’d love to own more land but the “tier” model is too coarse. Just 1m puts me up into $75 a month from $40. The upfront cost isn’t a scare as such. I can get land anywhere from nothing to exhorbitant, but the the ongoing cost is the killer. There’s no “appreciation” in land values that make any sense unless you own sims. If I pay say L$50k for a 1/16 sim parcel, my tier is L$10,500 a month. In 6 months, will I be getting $100k for it? No. So it doesn’t matter if I pay $30k or 70k, its the tier that will in the end make owning land nothing more than a business/fun cost, not an opportunity for profit. If I want another 512m, suddenly the tier makes it look even worse for a reasonable cost of ownership. If the tier were in 1024m steps, I’d tune my ownership up and down more dynamically.

  33. Resolved (TM) says:

    @32 — (quote) “If I pay say L$50k for a 1/16 sim parcel, my tier is L$10,500 a month. In 6 months, will I be getting $100k for it? No. So it doesn’t matter if I pay $30k or 70k, its the tier that will in the end make owning land nothing more than a business/fun cost, not an opportunity for profit.”

    Agreed of course, but you forget one thing with this, from the Linden-Lab TM(r) point of view: Most of the time you have to buy L$ with real dollars to acquire a land. As an example, buying a 16K at today’s avg price will cost you about US$240 or US$250, while after ‘regulation’ it is more likely to be in the range of US$350 to US$380.

    The difference is US$100 in LL pocket, now just multiply this by the number of sales in a month, well that makes a lot, doesn’t it.

  34. Harmony Deschanel says:

    I hope Linden Lab sees that quite a few in here are saying it’s the tier fees, not the initial cost of land that is keeping them from owning land, and stops thinking that flooding the market with land to devalue it is a way to get more people owning land.

  35. silke gausman says:

    Well – on private islands – we can observe life dying because of the amout of available land for sale. If the land economy does not get any control – if it just grows more and more – the sl community will be lost over more and more space.

  36. silke gausman says:

    ..AND – PLEASE DROP TIER COSTS. .-(

  37. Argos Hawks says:

    To the few that say they aren’t seeing the cheap land, I’d like to point out the Land Sales page of the in-world search. There’s over 12,000 parcels of mainland for sale under $5L/sqm.

    This is a very odd announcement when you look at the specifics. First, LL can’t dump new sims fast enough regardless of how low the prices go, then they are going to do zero for 4 weeks. The sensible thing would be to monitor and adjust from one week to the next.

    A four week delay from now would be a week or two following the mystery announcement at the SL5B celebration…

  38. Argos Hawks says:

    too bad i can’t edit my previous post. I meant 1200 parcels of land, not 12,000.

  39. DR Dahlgren says:

    Obviously, just as in RL, some regions will demand higher prices and have much lower turnover than other. I own substanial land in 4 different mainland sims. One has had no land for sale since the first of the year, another had one landowner sell out, but is again stable. The prices in those regions has remained relatively stable for over a year at the 15 to 20L per M2 level. Another adjacent to those has been stable at around 15. The last parcel I have is approx 9k which I aquired for 5L per M2 and there is still land available there. However the owner is asking well over 10L per M2 and it has been for sale for several months.

    So while you may have parcels for sale near you at 30 or 100L per M2, how long have they been for sale?

    I believe the numbers to be accurate, but remember, just like RL, it is all about location, location, location.

    If LL is really interested in seeing the purchase and trading of land become more robust agian, and the value of land stabilize, they could get rid of the ad parcels. These so devalue the land in a sim, that much just gets abandoned. I wonder if that is partially responcible for – “We will, however, be continuing to recycle the smaller abandoned parcels via the auctions, and you may see more of those plots becoming available than usual.”

    Oh and Dear Gov Linden, please clean up and turn off rez on the parcels you own. Some are total trash collections that agian truly hurt the value of the neighboring parcels.

    DRD

  40. Mini says:

    Instead of playing with the prices for the land, it would make much more sense if the tier system and especially the way tier for groupheld land is being handled.

    To me it makes absolutely no sense to allow different people to contribute tier to a group. A single person paying the tier and collecting the money from all others will always be the cheaper way for everyone, even with the 10% bonus a group receives.

    So either make the tier for mainland linear or change the way tier is donated to a group.

  41. River Ely says:

    If you keep increasing the land availability of new lands, and the customer base does not grow at the same rate to consume that land, you will have land left over at the end of the day. Its really simple, Supply and Demand, but you would not know that.

    If you have land left over, people start to sell land cheaper and cheaper in the hopes of finding a buyer. Land price goes down. Thats bad for the economy but good for the buyers.

    If there is not enough land, the price goes up as each players tries to outbid the others to get the land. Thats bad , good for Land Investors.

    Heres is the trick Watch the shops and clubs, they will tell you if the land is well priced as the economy can support.

    You have dumped too much land into the system as you wrote yourself money and buyers are not there, your other source of income from those that hold multiple islands is being eroded daily as you treat them so badly. You took away 40 percent of my investment of (at the time) 12 islands, now I have so few customers because of cheap land prices on mainland, yet cant lower mine any more because of the high cost of tier, so you are throttling my ability to generate income, and thats an income you take part in.

    We had a story when I was a kid, about a goose, and a golden egg. Well , I am telling you that you are killing a lot of geese on the islands, and the few golden eggs you get, the more your economy is going to be destabilized. By your own hands. We warned you, you did not listen, you are doing no favors introducing more land, you already broke the system.

  42. DanielRavenNest Noe says:

    Re: Getting more for a Premium Acct:

    As it stands now, if you pay the annual premium rate of 72 $US, you receive stipend of 300L$ x 52 weeks = 15,600L$. If you simply resell those L$, you can get 57 $US net. So the net cost per month is $1.25. That’s a pretty small price to pay. If you additionally rent your tier allowance to some group you should be able to collect another 100L a week or so. Thats equal to the tier cost for a full sim owner ($195US/mo) scaled down to weekly and for 512m. Thats another $19, so you are $4 ahead at that point.

    My point here is that going premium is essentially free if you are smart about how you do it.

    Re: Land Prices

    Since Islands now cost L$4.2/m to purchase, of course that drives mainland prices to the same neighborhood. In May there were 3400 island sims added, which totally dominates any mainland additions.

    Which brings up another possible reason to halt mainland additions: the 23% jump in island sims in May adds that much more work for the various databases. So halting mainland additions could be a way to help the asset systems catch up with the growth. “gee guys, lets hold off on adding more sims until we can add more units to the database cluster”.

  43. Michael Timeless says:

    Another change.

    Why does this not surprise me? People continue to belief that LL has our best interest at heart, which is the biggest joke around. The bottom line is that the system is broke. Content theft is so out of control that no one in his/her right mind would want to build anything new. If we can’t build anything new we can’t afford the tier. If we can’t afford the tier why bother buying new land even for free.

    The bottom line is that SL has become a trap. People can buy land very cheaply and the MUST pay tier. LL doesn’t care if they can’t make any money, because once you buy (even for 1L) you are trapped. Either you pay or some other person owns the sim a few days later. There is no stable grid, no stable economy and now that the other virtuals are coming on line….pretty soon no SL.

    The cost of a sim is irrelevent. A few months back when the grid shut down for almost a full day I observed an interesting fact. The people online dropped to less than 3k and yet the money made by LL for the day was still over a million dollars. So tell me this, if not for tier how did they make over a million dollars that day? No users online, no sales taking place (because transactions were down for most of that day on a weekend). The next day with the grid up they made almost the exact same amount of money.

    So I ask again, who cares what they do with pricing as long as tier makes LL sustainable even without people being online?

  44. In 16 months, I never had so much land for sale as now. Landprice at my sims was about 6 L$ per meter since a long time. I own 16 sims, and always had about 99% of my land sold. Now I am on 90% !! And the 10 % that I have for sale is growing. I try to give the land away for FREE and NOONE wants it anymore! I made SL my RL job , but since sales are going down fast , also in my stores, I think I will have to get a RL job soon again…..And now LL says “we respect the investments you make in Second Life….blah blah” NOT !!

  45. hope antonelli says:

    I would buy more land in a heartbeat if tier prices were lowered. Even if you cut then by 40-50% you’d easily make up the difference in land sales to people who cant afford tier as it is now. Do some research on prices for tier on your up and coming competitors. 90$ upfront for an island with more primmage and only 75 a month after is one model I’ve seen. Hrmm, lets see..pay more for crappy service and a -few- abilities they dont have yet in a place where the company doesnt seem to give a rats ass about us or pay less for better customer service, a few temporary reductions in service where there are fewer restrictiions and someone who actually seems capable of learning from their mistakes. The scales are starting to tip further and further in one direction…………….

  46. Minako says:

    I think this is price rigging to be honest… Its defiantly a Huge move against the free market policies you have claimed to have in the past… that because the price it falling you see fit to manipulate the market for a desired effect <.< which is definitely not free market,

    one thing to consider is that times in real life are getting hard and fewer and fewer people can afford to spend 300 dollars a month.
    alot of people are having a harder time squeezing out 20$ …. its getting hard and its only natural that land abandonment would be come more common as hours are being cut and jobs lost. Thats just the reality of it

  47. Knowl Paine says:

    Well what will all the land barons do? I bet all five of them will be so upset no regions to buy and subdivide. Maybe the 10 people who bought ever plot in Bay City can bail us out. Bay city is an excellent example of the greed and corruption in Second Life.
    Maybe LL can set things up so abandoned land goes directly into the Flocks account.

  48. Knowl Paine says:

    (actual ad)
    Hey everyone, beautiful flat land, great region, be the envy of all resident, 16m for the low, low price of 3,500L Wow!

    That is what is says in the about land in a plot near me. That figures to be 112,000L$ for 512M this is what’s wrong with SL.

    I have tried to clean up the land that surrounds my property. Many residents are happy to see someone wants to use it and try to improve SL but some want as much as 50,000L$ for 16m.
    Just like RL when you ask about something it suddenly turns into Gold! Now all these Land Flippers will have less land available and they are going to try to profit on all these small plots. I think this will only make things worse.

  49. Llanna says:

    i buy mainland at its current value of 1l$ per sqm, paying 6per sqm
    sounds like suicide to me when full sims are up for grabs around 3,5 per sqm

  50. Stan Pomeray says:

    The minimum price of a piece of mature mainland of at least 1024 sq.metres size was at around L$9/sq.m in January, and it’s currently standing at around L$3/sq.m, so I agree, some action is long overdue here.

  51. Magical McMahon says:

    Time to bring Moore’s Law into SL. If you don’t want to see prices fall (whether through internal competition from private and low-prim sims, or from external competition, or simply lack of demand from enough people willing to pay the tier), then you have to offer something more, e.g. (1) increase parcel prim limits, (2) do more about mainland ugliness and lack of privacy, (3) improve sim performance, and/or (4) provide other value-added related to tier, premium membership, etc. Just staying still, and trying to manage short-term supply, won’t work in this industry.

  52. Happi Homewood says:

    I agree with those who say that tier fees are what matters. Paying us$195 + 25% VAT for a mainland region is simply too much.

    I would suggest you lowered it to us$125, and stopped collecting VAT for EU citizens. No other US based business that I know of is doing that, and it makes the playing field uneven.

    With the latest update of OpenSim, they are getting really close to have a product that is just as good as SL, and the highest tier fees for a region (with 45,000 prims, and prims can be as large as 100x100x100m) that I have seen, are us$75 (and no EU VAT charged!)

    Who cares what the price of mainland is, the tier fees are what matters.

  53. rush gastel says:

    i been build and saveing to buy a sim in sl for about a year. and now i have finally got to the position of purchasing a sim. i see that it doesnt seem so appealing i see friends that invested in island sims have the investment slashed buy price drop. also the vat means that people can rent land to cover tiers and make a profit. for less than my tier would cost me. this cannot be right. it seems us europeans are being bent over a barrel and shafted. we have to abide but us rules on gambling and other things but then we get treated differently on vat. surely one rule for all or completely different rules so we can do what it legal in our country. also would be nice if some one could tell me what and why you have removed script from mlp furniture i was under the impression that miffy fluffy’s script system was open source. i thinking maybe time to give open life a look see. although i love sl i sick of seeing people get screwed.

  54. LS says:

    Since you’ve stopped auctions on sims (And you promised that you would run them for a full 3 months before ‘reviewing the sales’ and lots of us budgeted on that), then how about being more vigiliant on updating the map more often than once per week or month or whenever someone seems to get around to doing it? It would be nice for a human to see what land is available to buy, but many parcels are only noticeable by the land bots when the map isn’t updated. Also, land that shows for sale is many times already sold. It’s been at least 2 weeks since the map in our area has been updated maybe longer. Please?

  55. Wet Milena says:

    Nice story about land prices regulations… Too high prices… too low prices… Looks like you regulated nothing but just multiplied your income based on tier even hundreds of your paying members invested a lot and lost their money this way. Now you see nobody buy anything and you dicided to stop selling those hundreds of unwanted flat green undeveloped quickly and badly made crap sims… No asphalt on roads, no landscaping… just flat squares with 2-5 trees. Great work I hope you happy now and become rich on it… No wonder if there is 4 sims on one quadcore comp… its about US4000 for sims + US780/mothly tier made by one comp… good business of course… why care about us… why care about is SL fully working probably just a week of each month… If you start sell new sims again you probably lose the rest of your loyal members too… A lot of them already left SL forever… but you know it much better…

  56. This sounds like a really good idea.

  57. waterstar eilde says:

    @21 agree wholeheartedly. In addition, LL should quit creating land with strange dimensions! I’m totally in favour of preserved land, and in fact would like to see much more, but even future roads in newer areas result in odd adjoining land sizes which blatantly encourage their purchase/use by advertisers. Sadly, the majority of the latter wouldn’t know ‘attractive’ or understand ‘site sympathetic’ if it slapped them in the face.

  58. Joseph Zheng says:

    Jack,

    Too Late….The very reason you guys wake up to this harsh reality is that more & more concierge customers like me have quit owning more than 1/2 sims. Great to know that Philip acknowledge in Financial Times that Sl is buggy and unstable. There you have it…. On top of this, you guys have no idea what SL is heading to. You make alot of stakeholders like me loses thousands of dollars for you poorly planned sims expansion. Putting more Sims out than you guys can handle. Making the whole grid so unstable. The very reasons I still have not totally drop out from paying tiers fees and membership fees is the HOMELESS GROUP. But my patience with you guys is running very thin. If need be, then i will just disband the group and kiss the land, tier fees and membership fees good bye. As is said, please communicate the Big Picture to us please. Not as and when you like to lower land cost, thinking you can have big fat tiers fee rolling in from the hordes of new premium customers eager to grab the low cost land. WAKE UP. SEE YOU GUYS SCREW UP BIG TIME.

  59. Resolved (TM) says:

    @52 — (quote) “Who cares what the price of mainland is, the tier fees are what matters.”

    LL cares for mainland pricing and tier fee (ref: #33 ~ there’s no small profit), while residents care for their fees —> i.e.: rentals — even though we are called “land owners”, wording & assertion are FALSE.

    If we were owners we would not pay nothing but misc costs for maintenance, that is not the case here, and LL cannot pretend the tier is SOLELY for maintenance purpose.

    CHECK THE ERROR:
    – a full 64K region with 15000 prims is $195 on mailand
    – the same is $250 if the region is divided into 2x32K parcels
    – the same is $300 if the ….. 4x16k
    – the same is $320 if the…… 8x8k
    – the same is $400 if the…… 16x4k
    – the same is $480 if the…… 32x2k
    – the same is $512 if the…… 64x1k

    LL, pls can you explain, knowing a region is run on a single computer, hosting 4 regions as a whole if i’m not wrong ? Does this mean a computer maintenance cost may vary from 4x$195 (780 USD) a month to 4x$512 (2,024 USD) a month ???

    Obviously it does yes.

    This is SL…. 😀

  60. Resolved (TM) says:

    oops 2048 🙂

  61. Nankeen Heron says:

    So does this mean there’s an SL “sub-prim land crisis”? *ducks* 😉

  62. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    Ann OToole has a valid point – abolish ALL adfarm accounts. And while you’re at it, why not abolish all ‘for sale’ lands less than 128m or 256m? What can you build on such small plots, except adtowers which are an eyesore to legitimate landowners. Many of the 16m blocks are subdivided from larger blocks by ‘landcutters’ and used to extort money from ppl who want to join up their lands… look at how many corner 16s and roadside 16s are priced at L$99, L$999, or even L$9999! This is blatant extortionism aimed at forcing ppl to buy them to prevent a 50m adtower appearing on the corner of their land! LL knows who these extortionists are, WE know who these extortionists are, and the many in the SL community knows who these extortionists are. Isn’t the time long overdue to see some ruling on this problem from LL?
    ‘Your World Your Imagination’ is becoming ‘Your Ad-cluttered World Your Nightmare’
    – Klaatu Congrejo, part of a large coalition of Groups & individuals raising awareness about adfarmers & landcutters in SL.

  63. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Mini@40: if you have more tier than land, donating excess tier to a group doesn’t cost you anything. If you have a premium account for the stipend, or for access to support, or if you have land that doesn’t exactly fit a tier level, then group land is a clear win.

    Plus, group owned land gives you more group capabilities. Even if you have one tierholder for the group it makes sense to have the group rather than the tierholder own the land.

  64. Ken Massey says:

    Thanks Jack and guys at LL for keeping a close eye on the land prices i did think they where nearing the 1Ls avg as we know takes much longer for the market to rise than fall. Especially in summer months.. Just mix the sim numbers up next time so instead of a straight 10 sims a day on auction vary it to suit the weeks levels maybe. 🙂

  65. Ciaran Laval says:

    I’m not quite sure where some people look for land, land prices have crashed alarmingly. This hasn’t attracted swarms of new land owners, it’s the tier that gets people in the end and that hasn’t changed.

    The fluctuations are too great one way or the other, it’s time for some stability.

  66. Jasmin Marquez says:

    good. now raise the island prices and everyone will be happy. average loses around 1000 $ if we would sell regions. I don’t care about Mainland but i do care about private regions. I think you guys get that point here 🙂

  67. OpenSim Oh says:

    The only way to make LL listen to our concerns is to affect them in the only place where they care… “the pocket book.” Land sale prices are merely icing on the cake….the only thing LL is concerned with is tiers. A drastic reduction in tiers gets their attention…trust me. It is time you stop raping us over the coals with your bloated tier system and treat us fairly.

    I know exactly what it costs to implement and manage a data center. The fact of the matter is, only about 2% of your servers ever get touched in a 30 day period by a systems administrator. So how do you come up with $195/month for mainland and $295/month for private estates? Cooling, networking, electricity and system administrators do not equate to your maintenance charge/fee.

    @59 brings up a valid point….his chart fully explains how you exploit the common land owner and reward the “land flippers.” You collect $480.00USD/month on tiers (/sim) if the land was divided into 2048s. But you can get by charging $195.00 month for the full sim? I can assure you this…you aren’t losing any money per sim at $195 if you can afford to charge that amount in the first place. Your tier system is exploiting the residents of SL.

    And the question that never gets answered.. What additional costs is it to LL for me owning 16,385m2 over 16,384m2? 1sqm at an additional $50/month proves my point about a faulty/greedy tier system.

  68. Cappy Frantisek says:

    Least we forget, this is virtua;l land on a server rack. As I see it, LL®™ can affect the land prices as they see fit to pay for the infrastructure.

    Now, investors in one or multiple private islands are belly aching because your “land” isn’t worth anything? I have two words for you:

    CAVET EMPTOR!

    cap

  69. Cappy Frantisek says:

    caveat emptor oops!

  70. Rado says:

    As for one primary factor of depreciation of the land, the rental business enlargement with the SIM buying up of the real estate agent probably is one of cause? That subdivides the land finely, at the week unit with low L$ rents in the resident. The behavior” the land probably will purchase” of the resident or” probably will have the land after all with the premium account,” that the intention which is done probably will be is disturbed.

    After all, the easy management that has caused the population drain of recent SIM anyone can have the shop. It will not be to offer the place where it has meaning in big SIM, that value of the land will be pulled up, the town where the owner completes the place is built up, you think that you can say that the resident who can sympathize to that has decreased.

    The land which does not have charm at all for the resident increasing, reselling the kind of place where no one goes, with high price the fact that it cannot sell is actuality. The resident being, whoever trading is possible, but unless to tell the truth there is a management ability to do securely, in not succeeding, many of the resident have started to become aware. In that way, as for the land which is released, value of the quite land is low.

    Because there is the land of the small being cut off where no one approaches. But this actual thing, that it will gain even excessively with real estate, that it originates in the linden tree permitting the entry of the resident and the enterprise which the maneuver are done, I think. Being beneficial for the resident, not to be to try to build up the feeling good place, because it was flooded” the town whose are convenient the land owner for by your” to the last only.

    Now there are many ghost towns in SL.
    As for land depreciation, as for that way SL there is not funny for the residents, “it is no more than a stale imitation of real life”, that you think that it is the result of the thing which is felt.

  71. Steven Morrisey says:

    Mainland? Um, what is that?

  72. Caliburn Susanto says:

    And what, may I ask, is being done about the schmucks who buy openspace sims then put residences and stores on them? The only thing your policy states is you will not respond to performance complaints from residents who abuse the openspace policies by using them for “other than intended” usage (which is OPEN SPACE, by the way — to look at and cross; not live on or attract the public to).

    That is not good enough. What about the other three people who are being dragged down by the abuser? What is their recourse, other than to file abuse reports (which I do) on openspace sims found to have commercial, residential, or camping (!!) on them?

  73. Thebeadfairy says:

    Now for the flip side….
    I can see where manipulation of the Linden dollar is going. There were the Hunts Family in 1979 who did the same thing with sterling silver.

    “In response, the judge instructed the jury to return to the courtroom and read the decisions they had made on all 22 questions concerning the charges against the Hunts. In rapid succession, the jury foreman read ”yes” to all the questions that pertained to whether the Hunts had been part of a conspiracy, had manipulated the silver market, had violated Sherman anti-trust regulations, had monopolized the silver market, had committed fraud and had committed racketeering through the use of mail and wire communications to advance a conspiracy.”

    quote from HUNTS ARE RULED PART OF A SCHEME TO CONTROL SILVER
    By THOMAS J. LUECK
    Published: August 21, 1988 in the NEW YORK TIMES

    The odd thing was, back then, we were in a recession like we are today. Maybe the reason why the Linden dollar is so low is because the US dollar is so low. We are in a recession and the first thing to go when people don’t have the disposable income is the “fun” stuff. With the cost of gas at $5, a gallon of milk at $5 a gallon; I’m sure the last thing on peoples minds is purchasing land in SL. However, this also causes the price to go down, because demand is down. Manipulation is only going to show the general public how weak SL truely is. Also that it can’t be relied upon to be a “fair” deal. Wouldn’t it be nice if all the mortgage holders in “real” life could go back to their intro rate of 2%. Or manage to manipulate the market to get their “real” property values back. Come on, you have got to be joking. My neighbors house in “real” life just sold for $98,000 less than what they paid!!!!!!!!!!!!

  74. shockwave yareach says:

    “There are a number of factors behind this recent drop”

    Not the least of which is that SL hasn’t worked at all for 10 solid weekends.

  75. Ceera Murakami says:

    Honestly, if you want to lure more people into going Premium and buying more of that “Cheap land”, you’re going to have to lower the monthly tier costs. It costs far more to own a parcel for 12 months than it does to purchase it in the first place. Meanwhile, the ongoing maintenance costs of amortizing the initial server hardware purchase and maintaining the servers doesn’t come close to what LL rakes in on average in tier from landholders on the land hosted on those servers… You could give all Mainland away for free, and the cost of tier each month will still keep a lot of people from bothering to purchase land at all, or will keep them on tiny parcels that don’t give them enough prims to do anything with.

  76. I have a piece of mainland, 4608 sqm, for sale – and it is adjacent to protected land which means there is a wonderful ocean view.
    Give me an offer I can’t refuse.

  77. At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land and are sensitive to price fluctuations related to our auctions of new land.

    LMAO

    Thats a joke. Want some SL Swag. I think that is what you said after the price drop of estate land.

  78. I wish I could have got 6L/sqm for my land I had to practically give it away.

    I think we can safely say that buying virtual land in Second Life is not a secure investment and anybody who puts real money into ‘unrealestate’ is making a big mistake. Don’t do it!

  79. Resolved (TM) says:

    @71 Mainland is America very likely, ain’t it ?

    lol

  80. Resolved (TM) says:

    @70 — (quote) “Now there are many ghost towns in SL”

    No. SL Mainland is a 90% deserted planet (you can walk/fly at most places for 1 or 2 hours without meeting no one) … together with some over-populated spots where you can’t even move due to lag of various sources… just like hem… America ?

  81. Resolved (TM) says:

    Perfect reproduction of the USA system, culture and behaviour 😀

  82. Raymond Figtree says:

    “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land”

    Funniest thing I’ve read in a long time.

  83. hugsalot says:

    Funny how land values fluctuate, but why dosen’t the value of the L$ it self change at all, considering how much the USD has dropped in value in the past few years? L$ has been consistently 265L per $1 usd since LindeX was created. Back in the GOM days it was a different story. But after the Lindens decided to backstab GOM, the Lindens took over the market, and have complete control… and take a cut in the meantime.

  84. Argent Stonecutter says:

    @78: no, land in SL isn’t an investment, it’s an operating cost. Some of us have been saying that for years, through three land bubbles, and watched friends get carried away despite our pleading and lose their shirts.

    If you want to run a *business* in Second Life, and not a hobby, then don’t base your business model on buying land to invest.

    Plan to get back no more than about L$4/square meter (the price of land as a private region) if you sell out.

    Finally, if you can’t earn at least L$1/square meter (L$1.50 on a private region, unless you’re grandfathered) from what you’re using the land for… you don’t have a business, you have a hobby.

  85. Argent Stonecutter says:

    hugsalot@83: The Linden didn’t settle down at L$265/$US until after the LindeX had been in operation a while.

  86. JJValero Writer says:

    Perhaps another factor of the fall of prices can be that tier it is perceived like very high.

    That is to say, the land property is perceived like a species of rent, so that the land never is really of the user, if not who belongs to that he has the servers.

    SecondLife is not an isolated world of the real world, and also it is affected reason why it happens outside secondlife.

    The economic crisis, that threatens being a deep recession, the fear to lose the job, the inflation, all that causes that many think it before buying a land.

    If tier he were a little lower many users would be animated to have more land and that would make raise the prices.

    This message has been translated by a software translator. I hope that it is understood.

    Greetings.

  87. sirhc DeSantis says:

    Well I must admit I recently had to sell at a loss on one parcel, after doing pretty well most of the time. All moot now – I just got a double prim (30000) complete sim for $50 set up and $50 ongoing tier on another grid. Now thats competition. Shame there are very few people there – yet. But when it picks up I’ll consider moving out full time. Now how do you build a club from scratch……

  88. Solomon Devoix says:

    Speaking of land, I noticed something interesting of late…

    Once more, the blurb on the front page of the website speaks of OWNING virtual land. I thought that had been gotten rid of, for various legal reasons, considering that we don’t really OWN anything.

    So… why is it back now?

    /me goes off to snapshot a copy of the front page for proof later on when legal proceedings eventually come about…

  89. think that is only a game the first thing XD ……
    The important thing is to participate, and the ideal that people are happy with it ….. XD
    I think the less yellow sites in mainland better …. I think the more people can be in a better sim …… I think the better, faster, etc. can play better is ….
    I repeat very few places is important yellows sales in mainland ….. better to go slowly to put land in linden XD ….. ….. and because it can put linden real estate etc., as being a player no more harm the other players … XD the price of land it puts people and if it goes up because it can climb, with the overall game with so many millions of people possible, the strong economic possibility to purchase land is higher, and if that naturally arises, can be good … the market and curb itself and stabilize XD ……… …..

    the game lacks airports, railways, ports, easy mobility between sims, ect ….. maybe second life should think about the possibility to start playing as a player ….. with its stores, real estate, etc. … .. never without harming other players ……. but as a company more in the game, strong but honest and honest, it would be good to put even a bank, and giving interests, credits, etc. I think …. linden that has a lot still to do and I wish him the best XD …… ….. perhaps some day there is another planetaXD

  90. Dana Hickman says:

    @72 “And what, may I ask, is being done about the schmucks who buy openspace sims then put residences and stores on them?”

    Suggest you ask people in Caledon how many AV’s and scripts can run in a single new open space sim.. you’ll find that the AV and script performance is nearly the same as a full prim sim. It’s uninformed people like you that wind up preventing the rest of us who dream of owning our own low prim sim from ever getting the chance. If someone chooses to reside or vend from a low prim sim within reason, that is between them and LL, but NOT you.

  91. Leuk Short says:

    I am not sure what the issue is. Land at $6/sq m is high. Guys..since the company started, there have been around 13M accounts of which 90% are dead and gone. There is a severe issue in keeping residents:

    – The technical implications are huge. Basically to the massess it is difficult to use. To add the additional frustration for the orientation island stages before you can get off is ridiculous.

    – When folks com ein, and do searches, they mostly get the crap and the riff raff..which most folks are not looking for. Those that stay and just play rather than do good for the technology need some atention. Popular places and other nareas need to point to the sically “good” benefits of the technology, bnot to the crap/

    – paying 9.99 a month just so you can buy land is ridiculous. And 51 sq m is ridiculous. A minimum of 1024 should not be charged a tier. The tier prices should be lowered, and / or their should be more levels in between. There are absolutely no benefits to the 9.99 if one is not buying land.

    – Make accounts a trial basis, thenyou have to pay. Make the tier lower. Provide an initial amount of dis space, and charge for didfferent levels of disk space Use. People are pack rats and everyone has the same free crap in their inventory. Crap that they will never use. Provide a limit for non paying customers.

    – When are you going to allow customers to run their own servers and manager thier own spaces that connect to the grid. Linden cannot handle the capacity, and it averages about 56,000 maybe at anyone time. Again, most folks are dead and gone, with most folks coming ang going in an unusualy short period of time.

    Yes, linden is so perky all the time. It is great that there are someusing the technology for thepublic good. That is where folks should be steered to in SL. Then if they want the junk, they can find it on their own. There is enough of the garbage n the internet. Donot continut to promote and proliferate this stuff for the future of the technology. Hey, that is why again, tons of folks are dead and gone.

    The island pricing was a great deal. Lower the tier, and there will be a turnaround.

  92. Ciaran Laval says:

    @90 “If someone chooses to reside or vend from a low prim sim within reason, that is between them and LL, but NOT you.”

    That’s simply not true, openspaces are shared, they share resources with three other openspaces, hence if one is being misused it can have a knock on effect on the other three openspaces.

    Linden Lab have not changed their stance on how openspaces should be used. From the knowledge base:

    “They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way.”

  93. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Leuk@91: it’s $6.00/month, of which over $5.00 a month is paying for the L$300 a week stipend, so you’re paying US$1.00 per month for 512 square meters of land.

    Ciaran@92: they seem to have given up on that when they doubled the openspace prim allowance. ANd regular sims are shared too, you know, You’re less likely to find yourself bottlenecked on CPU time, perhaps, but you’re sharing memory, cache, disk, and network bandwidth with the yahoos on three other random sims.

  94. funny bunny says:

    “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land”

    eh?

  95. Cherry Czervik says:

    /me considers, of course, that instead of buying all the land I did and the tier payments etc that I could have bought a nice business class return ticket to the States instead of an economy one. Small potatoes as a couple of hundred pounds is, it’s a huge wodge of cash to me personally.

    I’d feel happier about it if the experience was still living up to what it was two years ago.

  96. Praetor Janus says:

    Hello Jack,

    Is it worth it to me to say; I told you?

    I don’t know who’s the genius behind last months land “inflation”; but you don’t need a PhD in Economics to have foreseen the ending result.

    Cheap land is not the way; the way is paying accounts (PREMIUM). Put a time-limit to free accounts, say 6 months, let them get the taste of it and afterwards pay for it or leave:)

    Live with, and give us, Real Metrics, Real Users!

    Do I prefer to attract 500.000 high paying customers or 5.000.000 no paying customers (freeloaders and grieffers)? SL does needs “décor”, so the time-limited free accounts 🙂

    Mainland is a mess and is being destroyed, daily, by greedy leeches.

    Take a stand against 16 m2 holding accounts, simple ban then and give their land to the nearest neighbor.

    Say; No More Ad Farms/Farmers/Extortionists!

    Forbid the onerous sale of parcels below 256 m2!

    Reduce tier payments by at least 25%!

    Moreover, for the yearly paid PREMIUMS, do offer the “….ed” 512 m2 parcel!

    Do you know what’s the difference between Politicians and Scientists?

    Easy, Scientists make their experiments with rats 🙂

    All the Best

  97. Thebeadfairy says:

    I upgraded to premier to buy land before I realized what was going on. Apparently, you have to have a premier account to purchase land. However, you cannot buy the lindens to purchase that land. I have a $10 limit for fear of fraud. They didn’t seem concerned about fraud when they took my $72 dollars, they are now concerned about fraud now that I want to buy some land. ?huh? Support ticket says its been elevated to “relevant” whatever that means. Its been over 12 hours, apparently the inability to buy land isn’t relevant enough. Wish I could get my money back. 😦 and I wish I could boycott the city i live in to lower my property taxes to what my house is worth in the real world. Lower those Tier charges SL or lower your membership expectations!

  98. Hewitt Huet says:

    Bwa hahhahahah

    I’m off to Bay City to buy land for 500L$/m

    @97: Join SLX & buy lindens there.

  99. SoulMate Girl says:

    I’ve been waving my hands around telling people that this was happening for months… suddenly there’s a problem? I think not! I am only a lowly renter on estates and I saw the land dropping back in January.

    LL has got to do something pretty dramatic because the world looks ugly. Sims look empty and higgle-de-pigglety. People are leaving SL all the time, mainly because of crashes and problems in world reaching unmanageable points. I have been crashing for the whole of my SL experience and now I have the system to use SL without crashing I watch everyone else do it. I know it’s bad when friends who complained to me about my on-off yo-yoing are now the ones doing the Login Twostep!

    We are not stupid LL… We now have a choice. Would I prefer that there was no economy and that we were allowed to create and explore and develop within a world where the only cost was if you wanted to set up sticks and create your slice of your world? Hell yeah!

    There’s talk of closing down free accounts in this long thread of posts… Sure do it… That will really put the final nail in LL coffin because I am not a premium member because I have to pay more for my premium membership being an EU member and all. Not all unpaid accounts are spammers and griefers, we pay into the economy as much as anyone. I pay tier to my estate owner. I have paid a lot of USD into the coffers of businesses on SL hair shops, clothes shops, content shops, furniture stores… you name it I have probably bought it.

    The issue here and I doubt very much that it can be overcome with a halt on new sims becoming available… Is greed… Greed from the extortionists… and LL itself… I believe it was never the intention of SLs creator to have an economy and it was one of the reasons he pulled out… His vision had become muddied by dollar signs. $.$

  100. I don’t know what kind of rock some of you live under to see that in the vast majority of the existing land, it’s been dirt cheap for weeks on end. Of course, location matters, so highly prized land on the old continent isn’t going to budge like nondescript flat green on the newer continents.

    ****

    This management by spreadsheet doesn’t reflect the user experience. Do you ever try shopping for land as a consumer? You can’t just go off this spreadsheet for the average. Things like the median, but more importantly, the mode at varying land tiers would make you more informed. You could get lots of viable land for far less than 6L/m2. You could buy a whole sim for that kind of money, or less. And that is cheaper than it was buying it at auction not too long ago, 50% cheaper.

    Keeping in mind that some people will maintain ridiculous prices on their land, well in excess of 10L/m2, what is the mode of the prices of land that is actually selling? Minus the 0 and 1L transactions? Averages don’t tell you much, because the outliers at high prices will distort the picture.

  101. Bryon Ruxton says:

    One good suggestion Praetor.

    If you implement time limited free accounts as you put it, with the current 512 m2, LL would be in fact subsidizing the economy for businesses (LL’s real customers). Remember that premium accounts are still almost free with the stipend value.

    It could be a good economic stimulus and a good incentive for residents to come and spend time and money already paid for in their premium plan. But the tier will likely not go down as a result. You can’t have it all…

    Talking about the main land. There is only one way to save it in my view. That is to have courageous estates reclaim it step by step and build regulated rental communities to replace the anarchic status that it is now in. The time would actually be perfect considering the low price. Any takers? Anshe Chung?

  102. Caliburn Susanto says:

    @90 Thanks for illustrating that it isn’t ME who is uninformed! 😀

    @92 Exactly.

    @ Whoever thinks SL should be free or a place to make money. No it shouldn’t. It’s entertainment. Entertainment costs money. When you go to the theater, the movie, the music festival, the Cirque du Soleil, the carnival, or the amusement park they don’t pay YOU, you pay THEM. There is no entitlement to free amusement.

    However, if you are talented and ambitious and you DO make more than you spend then congratulations on your success! However, it’s not an entitlement. Expecting everything to be free just defines you as a freeloader.

  103. ….We will, however, be continuing to recycle the smaller abandoned parcels via the auctions…

    And I’m disappointed to see you’re recycling 16 sqm ad farm plots by attaching them like tails to larger rectangular larger plots. Instead of using them for a few extra prims on the main lot, these hanging chads of land will almost certainly end up being sub-divided and sold off for use by ad farmers and extortionists. Conversely, there are auction lots that are nearly perfect in rectangular shape except for a missing 16 or 32 sqm piece in one or two of the corners. The poor souls who win those lots will end get up getting extorted by the predators who own the corner pieces. It’s a viscous cycle that Linden is helping to perpetuate.

  104. On a related subject, when the Linden public works guru places roads that cut diagonally through new regions, the result is an entire line of jagged plots that end up being sub-divided, and the ad farmers descend like locusts to transform the small plots next to the road into a giant ad farm eyesore. FYI Public Works, seeing an endless stream of giant lagging ads along the road is not conducive for a relaxing Sunday drive to explore all the virtual goodness. Just another example of how LL is perpetuating and exacerbating the ad farm problem.

  105. Here is an idea for roadside 16m plots: keep them as maintenance land. Get a few moles and make them vehicle rezzing stations, or put some kind of small but helpful Linden content on it. Seeing how development of the rest of mainland outside Heterocera & Sansara isn’t happening, this could be one nice thing you could do for the rest of us. Rez temp vehicles so that people can explore along the roads… or put some helpful tip to help people learn more about SL… or maybe use the html feature and have it show off the Showcase listings of places to go. Anything but giving it back to other wannabe ad farmers.

  106. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    Another suggestion for the roadside ‘jagged corner 16s’ – why not plant trees along them? Much more appealing to see tree-lined boulevards with occasional pit-stop areas.
    Better yet – why not ‘deed’ these lands to the residents of the region for landscaping purposes, or deed them to ‘land caretaker Groups’ who will green these roadside plots according to the wishes of the residents in the region.
    There are MANY useful ways to use these land ‘offcuts’ instead of letting them fall into the hands of extortionists or allowing them to become ‘ad-alleys’.

  107. Shadoe Landman says:

    Why are land prices so low?
    High supply, low demand.
    Some of us dumped old parcels when we bought Bay City lots and didn’t want to pay extra tier.
    Island prices are too low, so mainland can’t compete.
    Many locations are undesirable because of massive amounts of ban lines.
    RL economy is bad in US and people can’t afford the tier.
    Not enough roads completed.
    ________________(fill in the blank with other reasons)__________

  108. Cinco Pizzicato says:

    @101 Bryon Ruxton says:

    “Talking about the main land. There is only one way to save it in my view. That is to have courageous estates reclaim it step by step and build regulated rental communities to replace the anarchic status that it is now in. The time would actually be perfect considering the low price. Any takers? Anshe Chung?”

    This is my idea as well, but here’s the thing: You do the math, figure out your mainland tier, buy the land, set up your rental boxes, get the customers… And… Oh, wait. LL just opened 500 new sims which makes it more attractive for your customers to buy than to rent, and you’re screwed.

    I wonder what it would take for LL to start destroying mainland. They buy out a continent or two and it goes away. Maybe once the percentage of 0-bid auction results goes above some threshhold the defragging of mainland will begin.

  109. Tony Upshaw says:

    It’s good to see that you guys are monitoring the decreasing value of mainland. Thanks!

    On another note, I think that it is time that LL considers the zoning of mainland regions from this point forward. Have different zones for residential, commercial, light-commericial, building (private sandboxes) etc. You can do this with any new regions or any regions that have been abandoned. It is the only way I can think of that mainland will actually retain some value, since you will continue to create new regions in the future.

    Initially, you could probably get away with creating all new regions as residential only. Yes, this will cause a transition period, (we’re in the middle of yet another, so what does it matter) as residents wanting nice places to live begin to flock to the new areas. In time though, the areas that they left will be left with junky commercial and builders and those areas can then be zoned commercial. This way, you will have a smaller percentage of mainland that becomes wasteland, and better retainment of value.

    I own multiple islands (less than 10) but started with mainland and still buy protected waterfront when I can. It is still the best vehicle for smaller investors in SL real estate. The smaller investors still make up the bulk of the SL real estate investors, not island investors like myself.

    I’m still small, but I’d like to get a whole lot bigger. For now though, until I see more addressing of real estate issues such as this, I will be holding on to what I have and not moving forward on new investments.

    I got money waiting, guys! Come get it!

    Tony Upshaw
    Upshaw Island Management

  110. isitcatcotton says:

    Maybe if LL would keep their nose out of resident land entirely we would stabilize the land market ourselves. Dumping 20 sims on us was the main problem. Continually dumping entire regions on us when there is plenty of land for sale IS the problem. Mind your business; which is to keep my business UPTIME up.

  111. SoulMate Girl says:

    Clever idea getting rid of “freeloaders” after all there’s a massive rental market on SL…. Now wait a minute who pays for rentals? Ahh yes the “freeloaders” on basic accounts!

  112. Jesslynn Wycliffe says:

    so, you are at it again. control, control, control. you restrict mainland to control the price, oh excuse me, adjust it, to help residents BUT then those who paid for estates and/or islands got a discount when you adjusted by you. so estates grow due to low prices and main land shrinks, i mean goes on hold. i still subscribe to supply and demand something i don’t think you guys get it at all. i’m a paying resident substantial land holder who would like to see a free market which includes reclaimed and abandoned lands as soon as they are acquired by lindens.

  113. Happi Homewood says:

    Suggestions:

    1) Set Mainland tier fees at $1 per 512 sqm.
    2) Make the minimum parcel to be set for sale divisible by e.g. 512sqm.

    Why?

    – Lower fees will attract more customers.
    – As it is now, if I “own” 33280sqm mainland, the fee is $125. If I then “buy” e.g. 1024sqm. more, my tier fees will go up by $70, which makes the incentive to expand much less attractive.
    – #2 will make it more difficult to set up ad farms.

  114. Danielravennest Noe says:

    @97 TheBeadfairy

    The initial trading limits are to prevent someone using a stolen credit card number. In second life you can buy L$ with real money, transfer the L$ to another account you hold, then sell the L$ back to real money, and cash it out to Paypal. So the initial limits hold back that kind of theft until the cardholder has time to notice the card has been used by somone else. A premium account doesnt give you a way to transfer value in and of itself, so its not a theft risk.

  115. Gigs says:

    “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land ”

    This is why you devalued every island investment by 40% overnight, with no warning? That move was anything but respectful. A few weeks warning on the price drop would have softened the blow.

  116. Curtis Dresler says:

    I guess I can’t stay off completely, but anyway… At one time I owned 32K of land and was actually (stupidly) planning on buying up to 64K. Fortunately, LL in my opinion clearly signaled that they would be making unbalanced entries to the land ledger in SL and I started to sell instead, with selling encouraged by the in world problems that seemed to get more frequent from December on (even as the failure to connect to the problem computer meant that nothing was getting reported to LL about most of mine). When the actual decisions by LL in development – probably at the top of the list, the decision to limit sight distance in favor of frills, so that you could no longer see the effort invested in the sims, the castles, the walks, forests, and other builds, but instead making everything 8K surrounded by water – undermined the experience drastically, I bailed. As a result, I only lost on land less than US$ 100. It could have been worse.

    And the only reason it isn’t worse for LL is that so many don’t seem to realize that sunk costs are just that. The guy that bought my last complete 16K is holding on evidently until the market comes back. It will cost him more in tier to hold that empty lot than abandoning it and walking away (he is already close to that point now, tier paid in excess of land purchased). If that were to happen, buyers waking up and walking away, LL would finally be penalized on that cash grab. Until then, though, they don’t care that my former neighbor is holding onto L$ 50,000 of land he has priced at L$ 154,000 – because he has to pay tier every month, even though the land is empty and bare. Its funny – he pays tier to hold onto something barely worth the monthly tier itself – for months.

    This is a fact, now. I own 512 and will sell that, but all it holds is a car along a byway. I will sell or abandon that when my current premium membership comes due or when prices come back if before. I have purchased my last land in SL – I’m a future renter only. I have paid my last premium membership in SL, although I think they will soon have to charge the basics as well. No more purchases of castles, furniture et al (sorry, Greatscott Mcmillan).

    And I’m someone that could easily afford the 62K, but simply refuses to buy in a market that has no governance or show of fiduciary responsibility to its clients. In my profession, to do what LL did would simply be unethical, and I mean that it the ‘by the numbers, lose your license’ sense of the word.

  117. coventina dalgleish says:

    The mainland is ripe with the decay of yellow because who wants to spend real dollars on virtual land when there are no controls implemented by linden lab on what goes on there. We have a store on Pak, the mainland, and there is all kinds of leftover’s floating in the air. People have the ability to dump trash and never recover the piles they leave. It does little good to report them for most have with drawn from the game and there is never a clean up. Also who would spend dollars,yen, or euro’s )) on the mainland when the game has difficulty staying
    active for more than a few days at a time. Again after a 3 day hiatus the asset servers again were non functional for a period of time not allowing individuals access to their past time. I would say when the game is rock solid you may again see the price of land rise but until then you will see the spread of the yellow plague. As long as your mainland stays pegged at 22.3 ms you are assigning the citizens who live there a second class category. You sell islands because the owners have total control over the estate tools and can moderate what affects the land. Until you assign moderators to mainland estates who can reset and control the space it will continue to be unused space.

  118. coventina dalgleish says:

    AGAIN WHAT DOES IT MATTER AS THE LOG INS SEEMED TO AGAIN BE BORKED MORE OF THE SAME OLD SAME OLD QUITE FRUSTRATING TO SAY THE LEAST

  119. Michael Timeless says:

    Most of this is pointless.

    Two days and not one comment from LL. Increasingly, these blogs are becoming a venting place for newer residents. The older residents have just decided to quietly leave and LL really doesn’t care what we think. The truth is that the competition has arrived and now it’s just a matter of time before this “game” becomes totally unviable.

    A lot of us have areas both here and at the competition and each day we get a little bit closer to spending time in only one place. While I salute LL for the wonderful job they did getting a virtual world off the ground, I also remember that it was the people who made it work. Failure to fix ad terrorism, failure to enforce intellectual property, failure to respond to complaints, failure to keep it up on weekends and finally failure to remember that those who initially bought into this helped sustain this world. Now you have a tier structure that will drive the last of the people away.

    While it took months for many of us to scrimp and save to buy our sims, it only takes seconds to hit the abandon land button and move on – something that no one cares about anymore.

    Ask yourself, if people really cared anymore, except about losing what we invested, wouldn’t this comment page be filled already?

  120. Johnnyfender Boa says:

    Folks..land is just not worth that much!!!!! There is a large supply of it, with more added or anticipated.

    The main problem….Linden cannot keep residents. Many millions since inception. Almost as many millions have disappeared for good. There are many sound reasons for this.

    The thing I was curious about…why did folks pay Linden so much for parcels in Bay City. That is totally crazy. That investment will never be returned. Nor will businesses flourish in that region. There are so many better ways to promote an endeavor or a business.

    The key: Someone with real expertise and maturity is needed for the VP of Technical Operations. Again, it is avery sad state when many millions have come and gone, and will continue to come and go until the proper person is put in place to resolve the serious issues that turn people away.

    Yeah…why has not Linden responded here?

  121. Kasen Kazan says:

    For only 4 weeks??
    I would feel better if it was 4 months.
    Course I have been buying alot of land, the past month.
    Hope I can pay the tier! (hehe)

  122. Esther Merryman says:

    Good news the level of new land being issued will drop, while old abandoned parcels will be auctioned off in the mean time.
    This should increase sim populations and solve the problems of the near empty sims accross the mainland that exist currently:-)

    Adfarming is still a terrible curse right accross the mainland though and needs to be stopped as land values near adfarms will continue to be valueless.
    Why would anyone invest money on land near these eyesores.
    Not acting to bannish the parasites that practice this form of extortion will leave a patchy mainland of abandoned valueless land in the areas around the ads.

    The low prices of land over the last few months has made this already unbearable problem even worse as more landcutting is being carried out now than ever before, so hopefully this will now at least change.

  123. Rodger Rammidge says:

    The Junkyard that is Second Life, is deteriorating by the minute.
    Adfarming is on the increase with more land cuts being made daily.
    Even though LL where supposed to have banned it back in February!
    LOL but then again its no surprise LL dont care they just collect their overpriced tier and ignore the requests of the users.
    Time to abandon Land and the Junkyard me thinks.

  124. Rene Erlanger says:

    LL has totally mis-managed the economy for god knows how many months.!! I have never seen so much incompetance and bad decision making all coming out of 1 single building that is 945 Battery Street, SF!

    Since late last year, i’ve been saying that there was already too much land on the grid, by highlighting the sparce regions due to player density versus amount of SIMs (as of today it is less than 2.5 AV’s per Sim during peak login periods…..or 60k on 24,000 sims)

    What does LL do during that period?
    -They increase land supply by creating another 2 mainland continents, resulting in lowering sqm prices and an increase in yellow blocks of land! The knock on effects
    which were felt in the Private Estate land rentals too.

    – They reduce Private estate purchase prices. The upside
    being that it has become a more affordable entry level, the downside all existing SIM owners saw their SIM’s devalued by at least 40%

    – They change the rules (& prim count) on buying Open Space sims leading to a mad rush in obtaining them by existing SIM owners….even though these SIMs are designed for light use and not ideal for commercial or residential land rentals.

    I’m not sure if LL monitors RL economics other than price of Cheesburger & French Fries from their local McDonalds. It appears not! With the price of oil (thus transportation costs), energy costs & food prices as well as the stagnation of several western economies (most notibly US & U.K)….the LL tier structure is totally out of whack.!!

    Since autumn of 2007, I’ve been saying that tier prices need to be reduced inorder to stimulate both the SL Land and Content economies. All on deaf ears!

    So now we are witnessing stagnation in the land economy both on estates & mainland. More people leaving SL, more people prepared to just abandoned lands as RL economic squeeze kick in! I’m witnessing this first hand on my own sims which previously had 100% occupancy.

    I have invested 1000’s of USD in both land and commercial activities, not to mention the hours spent.
    I’m at a point where i’m totally disullioned with this continual mis-management of what could have been an excellent platform. LL lives in denial and are only driven by the collection of yet more tiers….that’s the appearance it gives off!

    Although I’m not leaving SL, i am discouraged enough to no longer expand in both land and commerical (content creation) activities.

    I’ll be looking at this “OpenSim” project as a viable 1st step replacement for my SL game time, or at least until another virtual world with a working economy emerges.

  125. LS says:

    LL, I think people are trying to make a point. When over 10% of the responses to just one unrelated blog entry are requesting the same exact thing – get rid of 16-32 meter parcel sales for ads, doesn’t it make you wonder? Noone with a large parcel on any sim wants to see these ads all over, and the ads are there to feed off the traffic of those larger land owners. I’ve read profiles of some of these ad farmers calling themselves “legitimate advertisers” and aiming their profile entries at LL directly, defending their right to take two tenths of a percent (.02%) of land on a sim and monopolize off of and frustrate the large tier paying members of that sim. Get rid of ad farms altogether. They are parasites on your tier paying members of any sim. In case you missed the content within the various posts, here’s an easy recap.

    @21 – The cheap land is a donut but the donut hole with the extortion ad farm costs lots and lots per sqm.

    @39 – If LL is really interested in seeing the purchase and trading of land become more robust agian, and the value of land stabilize, they could get rid of the ad parcels.

    @48 – I have tried to clean up the land that surrounds my property. Many residents are happy to see someone wants to use it and try to improve SL but some want as much as 50,000L$ for 16m

    @57 – I’m totally in favour of preserved land, and in fact would like to see much more, but even future roads in newer areas result in odd adjoining land sizes which blatantly encourage their purchase/use by advertisers.

    @62 – Ann OToole has a valid point – abolish ALL adfarm accounts. And while you’re at it, why not abolish all ‘for sale’ lands less than 128m or 256m?

    @96 – Take a stand against 16 m2 holding accounts, simple ban then and give their land to the nearest neighbor.

    @103 – And I’m disappointed to see you’re recycling 16 sqm ad farm plots by attaching them like tails to larger rectangular larger plots. Instead of using them for a few extra prims on the main lot, these hanging chads of land will almost certainly end up being sub-divided and sold off for use by ad farmers and extortionists.

    @104 – On a related subject, when the Linden public works guru places roads that cut diagonally through new regions, the result is an entire line of jagged plots that end up being sub-divided, and the ad farmers descend like locusts to transform the small plots next to the road into a giant ad farm eyesore.

    @105 – Here is an idea for roadside 16m plots: keep them as maintenance land.

    @106 – There are MANY useful ways to use these land ‘offcuts’ instead of letting them fall into the hands of extortionists or allowing them to become ‘ad-alleys’.

    @113 – – #2 will make it more difficult to set up ad farms.

    @122 – Adfarming is still a terrible curse right accross the mainland though and needs to be stopped as land values near adfarms will continue to be valueless.

    @123 – Adfarming is on the increase with more land cuts being made daily.
    Even though LL where supposed to have banned it back in February!

  126. SomeGum says:

    will the last one out turn off the lights?

  127. Jack: “In 2007 we managed the price down slowly from a high figure of L$12 per meter to a more reasonable L$6 to L$8. (…) In recent days we have seen it dip below L$6 per meter which we feel is a little low.”

    This is funny! If the price was in the range you wanted it (a bit above L$6) as you are stating, then why did you drop all the “land bombs” at the same time: huge drop in island pricing, drop in auction start price, huge increase in the number of sim put for auction, etc – all at once?

    At that time, I thought you guys clearly wanted the price of land to be much lower. I didn’t agree but LL is not my company… I had to live with whatever you guys want. But… Now you are saying that is not what you wanted? So why on earth did you do that for, then?!?! I had the feeling you guys were playing yo-yo… Now I know for sure!

    Jack: “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land and are sensitive to price fluctuations related to our auctions of new land.”

    This is also funny. When the price went down because of all the “land bombs” you dropped at the same time, people who had “invested” in land were hurt. But… They were told that land in SL is not an investment, it’s just like a web hosting service. Now Linden Lab is, again, pretending that it is an “investment”…? Strange… Does it mean we need some securities and exchange commission people down here or something?

    Funny yo-yo games you guys play!

  128. Linda Brynner says:

    Excuse me, but I was writing on the SLB5 blog that former griefers have seem to find a way into the organisation, and that SL should select much more critical based on their database.
    First thing that Katt Linden does is delete that notice.
    Sorry if you don’t seem to be able to handle some bad news.
    But it is the way it is !

  129. Linda Brynner says:

    Ahh, glad to see it on the blog Katt.
    Opinions should be shared here, ty.
    ty

  130. Linda Brynner says:

    To my sincere opinion, Island sales should not be included into the stats. It shows anyway that this the price per sq.m. in the stats of SL do have no influence at all.
    And to all land resellers… based on 1,5 year of being highly profitable, don’t panic and keep you prices up.
    People buy on first impression and not on stats.
    Keep the price to your own mind, and be patient !
    🙂

  131. Simeon Beresford says:

    A year a go a post like this would have all its comments filled before all the timezones could read it. Nowadays, it seems not enough people care about second life to comment on it let alone buy land there.

  132. So happy I stopped by land a long time ago…

    SMILE!

  133. Tony Upshaw says:

    132 Marc Woebegone Says:

    June 24th, 2008 at 6:38 AM
    So happy I stopped by land a long time ago…

    SMILE!

    This is an old post and you’re still keeping up with it though. You coming back into the land market? Grins

  134. Rodger Rammidge says:

    Has anyone visted my second place.com and read Sarah Nerds log of Jacks last meeting it makes it perfectly clear he has no thought of preventing adfarming what so ever.
    Primlands and other sellers of small plots are no better than any other form of robber their should me a maximum permissible price per sqm set for land LL have the right to do this and refuse, which anyone can see is actually giving people the ok to be anti social land sharks.
    The adfarmers are just enjoying the proceeds of business allowed if not even encouraged by LL, so from now on why dont we all just start cutting and and making SL into more of a mess? cash in on the sale of small plots? LL has given us their blessing so now its open season.
    Why should we all sit back while Primlands make a fortune via antisocial behaviour of holding 16sqm of land at silly prices.
    Sometimes things have to get worse, before they can get better.
    Jack Linden doesnt care at the moment as Second Life is although a mess, not yet bad enough to stop new members joining and finding somewhere to hang out.
    Perhaps he will care when whole sims are trashed all over the mainland and new members just start logging off straight away after the first few minutes to find a virtual world with sensible management!

  135. Rodger Rammidge says:

    I am joking BTW about becoming adfarmers, and wrecking anything that hasnt been wrecked already.
    Even if there arent many Sims in the mainland left that havent been affected in some way!
    Oh and as far as land prices are concerned the cheaper the better that way land extotionists wont be able to make money so easily, as normal users will just abandon and move to a new area rather than pay a stupid amount for the land!
    So perhaps Jack you did do something right enabling it to be easier for new members to aquire land cheaply even if it does affect all those who sell land even large parcels they are all greedy and a blight on normal users pushing values of plots far in excess of what they should be.

  136. ‘Land Extortionists” seem to have their own land market going which has nothing to do with the real land market. These parcels do seem to move around from extortionist to extortionist so clearly there is some buying and selling going on. And if you offer them even a high real market-level price on a per sq m rate, they will laugh you off, as anyone who has counteroffered L$160 for a 16 m^2 being offered for $L500 on up knows all too well. (Although surprisingly, they WILL buy pieces put up for sale at market-level prices…. they will happily buy a 16 m^2 plot for L$100, which is the same price per meter as L$3.2k 512.)

    One odd thing is that you often see adfarms flashing and spinning in the middle of nowhere with the little 16s being swapped every so often between farmers, right next to vacant regular lots which go begging for low prices for months on end.

    The economics of the adfarms business is not quite as insane as it seems at first glance. A farmer can hold literally thousands of 16 and 32 m^2 plots in a lot of sims for just a couple hundred bucks a month. If you can sell even one in a thousand of those overpriced lots to outside parties, the adfarmers can make a profit. And even though no one ever rents space on the billboards, an adfarmer can advertise his or her other businesses on the ugly pillars.

  137. Timothy Zapotocky says:

    One way to reduce adfarming (which is not on the increase, but which continue to be an annoyance) might be to implement a more complicated tier structure which charges land owners something per parcel as well as per square metre. That might make it less economically viable to hold huge numbers of 16s and 32s in the hopes of selling a tiny fraction of them for inflated prices.

  138. Rodger Rammidge says:

    @136 Timothy I fully agree the reason alot of the parcels are sold off cheap at market value, is to lower the tier for the adfarmer.
    The expensive ones are held back to use in the future when all other plots have been purchased and linked up.
    No one will be able to get a high price like 4999L for 16sqm if there are 20 of them all bunched together this is why they let most of the plots go at normal rates, To allow for land repair over time.
    I would guess the adfarmers work on a long term future return for their investment probably 12months or more for the highly priced plots.
    The spare normal priced cuts probably pay for the land tiers initially on the big payday parcels, This would account for the amount of cutting these parasites carry out.
    The exchanging of parcels is most likely just that to keep tiers lower and allow placement of towers and other forms of harassment for a period while the land is not up for sale.
    Then when people show signs of dismay at the towers the land is swapped back to be put up for sale at an extotionate price.
    For the adfarmers this is the perfect solution still able to apply pressure to surrounding landowners and yet not fall foul of LL’s TOS.
    Like it or not it adfarming is obviously a lucrative business and a well thought concept despite being morally wrong:-(

  139. Keep us informed the next weeks in the blog? Where? I’d like to know what will happen in the near future, since it is not possible to sell my land anymore. PEOPLE don’t want land for free!! a few months ago they paid me 25k for a 2500 sq m parcel, now I have 30 parcel that noone wants for free!!

  140. I LIKE TO REPEAT THIS POST: I AM MAD!!!!

    Rene Erlanger Says:
    June 20th, 2008 at 11:36 AM

    LL has totally mis-managed the economy for god knows how many months.!! I have never seen so much incompetance and bad decision making all coming out of 1 single building that is 945 Battery Street, SF!

    Since late last year, i’ve been saying that there was already too much land on the grid, by highlighting the sparce regions due to player density versus amount of SIMs (as of today it is less than 2.5 AV’s per Sim during peak login periods…..or 60k on 24,000 sims)

    What does LL do during that period?
    -They increase land supply by creating another 2 mainland continents, resulting in lowering sqm prices and an increase in yellow blocks of land! The knock on effects
    which were felt in the Private Estate land rentals too.

    – They reduce Private estate purchase prices. The upside
    being that it has become a more affordable entry level, the downside all existing SIM owners saw their SIM’s devalued by at least 40%

    – They change the rules (& prim count) on buying Open Space sims leading to a mad rush in obtaining them by existing SIM owners….even though these SIMs are designed for light use and not ideal for commercial or residential land rentals.

    I’m not sure if LL monitors RL economics other than price of Cheesburger & French Fries from their local McDonalds. It appears not! With the price of oil (thus transportation costs), energy costs & food prices as well as the stagnation of several western economies (most notibly US & U.K)….the LL tier structure is totally out of whack.!!

    Since autumn of 2007, I’ve been saying that tier prices need to be reduced inorder to stimulate both the SL Land and Content economies. All on deaf ears!

    So now we are witnessing stagnation in the land economy both on estates & mainland. More people leaving SL, more people prepared to just abandoned lands as RL economic squeeze kick in! I’m witnessing this first hand on my own sims which previously had 100% occupancy.

    I have invested 1000’s of USD in both land and commercial activities, not to mention the hours spent.
    I’m at a point where i’m totally disullioned with this continual mis-management of what could have been an excellent platform. LL lives in denial and are only driven by the collection of yet more tiers….that’s the appearance it gives off!

    Although I’m not leaving SL, i am discouraged enough to no longer expand in both land and commerical (content creation) activities.

    I’ll be looking at this “OpenSim” project as a viable 1st step replacement for my SL game time, or at least until another virtual world with a working economy emerges.

  141. Dixie Barbosa says:

    JL: “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second Life land and are sensitive to price fluctuations related to our auctions of new land.”

    You say you do, but you really don’t. If you would, you wouldn’t have done the drastic price changes on private sims. If you want to light a candle, you don’t go at it with a flame thrower. A more gradual decline of the prices would have been so much better.

    Everybody can make mistakes, including you, Linden Lab. I mean, it’s a learning curve for us all, isn’t it? But at least admit that you made a mistake, and do something about it.

    Thank you very much.

  142. Loretta Lurra says:

    JL: “At Linden Lab, we respect the investments you make in Second life……..”

    I am sure all those poor people who went out and purchased $1675 private islands are in complete and total agreement and brimming with absolute confidence in your commitment to their investments.

    Ok..so whats the plan for this week? Higher land costs? Lower land costs? Mess with tier? Dump some more unwanted product on the market? Stick it to the Private Island Owners? New update with more interesting and challenging bugs?

    Can’t wait!!!!!! Yummy

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