Mono Beta Refresh 10

The Mono regions on the beta grid were updated with new software yesterday that resolves the following issues:

* SVC-2342 Compiling in Mono randomly fails
* SVC-2366 Recompiling objects with 50+ scripts will fail
* VWR-6643 Recompile scripts in selection does not work for group owned objects
* SVC-2243 Key initialization different in LSL and Mono
* SVC-2401 Invalid IL code generated when specifying a return value for a function that has none

In addition, Mono is now the default target for compilation, script events per second replace instructions per second in the overlay statistics and the beta grid database has been refreshed from the main grid, so new scripts are now available on the beta grid for testing.

Please test your new scripts on the beta grid and if you have any problems file a JIRA report here or tell us at the Mono office hours held in Sandbox Goguen MONO on the beta grid on Wednesdays at 8AM and Fridays at 3PM. Please also let us know about your Mono successes – here’s a video of Chance Zeta’s amazing LSL ray tracer running first on Mono and then on the LSL virtual machine, which takes 4 times longer to render the scene:

Thanks again for your continued support throughout the Mono beta process.

About babbagelinden

Software Engineer at Linden Lab
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75 Responses to Mono Beta Refresh 10

  1. Darien Caldwell says:

    Nice, I’ll have to Check it out this weekend. Keep on forging ahead!

  2. Vincent Nacon says:

    O_O Ray tracing? Good god, you’re insane to write them in LSL code.

    Other than that, nice work! Gonna come to main grid any time soon?

  3. Gotta love four times faster…

    Any chance we will see a “Mono Linden” working four times faster on some issues?

    *giggles*

    Sugar

  4. Ky Aska says:

    Someone wrote a raytracer in LSL?

    Anyway, let’s put the numbers in a more practical manner: I watched the Mono part and was interested the whole time. The LSL one was slow enough I went and looked at other things.

    Has anyone done tests with a more realistic set of scripts? Do ‘normal’ scripts gain any speed? Are they smoother, with less sudden slow downs and speed ups? Or is the difference not really noticeable?

    As long as it’s not slower, I’m happy, since I seem to recall someone said that new toys for scripters would be more practical on Mono than the old LSL engine.

  5. Anthony Reisman says:

    Is there a place to test scripts that require landowner permissions? Most of my scripts make use of parcel media calls at some point so it is difficult to tell if they will fully work yet.

  6. Uchi Desmoulins says:

    Give this Chance guy a job!

  7. Tristin Mikazuki says:

    hh I still cant find the url for the sl 5 year birthday does anyone know what it is?

  8. M needs to stop fauning and start firing says:

    please take a moment to email or phone whoever is responsible for the database and the false grid status report that all is well. It is not and it would be good if someone could care enough to advise them of that

  9. Shaun Banshee says:

    Did that prim seriously just take a picture by itself, and then recreate it BY ITSELF with prims. Wow, once i’ve seen a man eat his own head then I can truly say: I have seen everything.

  10. Argent Stonecutter says:

    I’m amazed how fast the *LSL* ray tracer was, let alone the mono one. Based on my own hacking around in raytracing about 25 years ago, I’d guess the LSL one was chugging along at a couple of VAX MIPS, which is a LOT faster than I thought LSL actually was.

    The Mono one looked about as fast as my Amiga 1000 running Sculpt-3d.

  11. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    No matter how much faster Mono is than LSL it won’t matter a bit if nothing else works.

    Right now TPs are failing, Rezzing is failing, changing outifts is failing, money transactions are failing. And yet according to the staus page all is [RESOLVED]™

    Will someone please look up the meaning of [RESOLVED]™

  12. Nice to see the trolls are out in force. Why must people like Ravanne sink to the lowest common denominator? Is the typical SL resident truly so stupid as to not understand simple math? More efficient scripts mean better performance for everything. Any grade-school student know that.

    We had the same moronic comments about Havok4. Sigh.

  13. DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!! says:

    ravannne i was having same issues i had them restart the sim and it has helped, see if they will for you it maybe will help with some issues,
    i haven’t been able to get any group messages or Ims for days they seem to touch one thing and it screws up 100 other things i really don’t understand why…. very very poor coders i think…maybe LL needs to headhunt for some actual real trained programmers, not the tinker hacker ones they have working on this now.

  14. I’m impressed with Mono and looking forward to seeing it live in the future. Good response for flight controls and I’m glad you addressed the script issue. Great for setting large amounts of prims in motion!
    Keep up the Great Effort! ,,,=^_^=,,,

  15. Vincent Nacon says:

    @11 and 13: Ravanne, those major problems in teleporting and rezzing does have to do with bottleneck problems in bandwidth by the database’s speed. Using Mono would help server’s database faster, so bottleneck would become less of a problem.

    Do your research next time and don’t be a fool.

  16. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    12 Cheshyr Pontchartrain
    No matter how fast and efficiant the scripts running on the sims are they are worthless when the core systems fail. No matter how nice the tires on your car, no matter how wonderful the transmission, no matter how comfortable the seats if the engine won’t run you are going no where.

  17. UM ™® says:

    Is its exicting!!!!!!!I can`t wait! Thank you babbage linden…..3 years in the waiting and we are getting closer 🙂

    U sagi M usashi

  18. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    15 Vincent Nacon
    Script efficiancy will do little when you can not download the script from the server. And if anything faster scripts might actually worsen the situation since they will request information from the server faster and more often.

    I do know how informations systems work, you should do some research of your own.

  19. Argos Hawks says:

    I know this isn’t the proper place for this comment, but many thanks to whoever put BOTH the status links and blog links on the SL startup screen. Once the pages were split, it was a really poor decision to have only the status links on startup. It may seem like a little thing, but I’m really glad to see it fixed.

  20. Ryu Darragh says:

    Actually, Vincent, the database servers don;t run on or have anything much to do with scripts, mono or LSL VM based. Except, perhaps, in the sense that a script is stored in the databse until used. The DB (Data Base) is limited by networking code (x86/Linux based, usually.. possibly MySQL?) and network bandwidth (hardware and cabling, ISPs and Bandwidth Shaping and Tier III ISP agreements and so forth).

  21. sloopy cooder says:

    It’s unfortunate Vincent that you attack with name calling and spread misinformation. Perhaps you should take a break from posting abusive comments.

    We are all looking forward to the improvements Mono will bring, but it is also a fact that improved LSL is moot if the asset servers continue to fail on a regular basis. Couple that with the continued downward spiral of performance and the future does not look bright. We are still plagued with an ever increasing bug list in Jira with no indication that critical problems are being addressed in any capacity.

  22. Drew Dwi says:

    Don’t suppose there will be a beta signup like havok4 had?

  23. Sorry about the off-topic but I think this is warranted:

    Please tell your webmaster:

    Please fix http://www.SecondLife.com website home page.
    The BLOG menu goes to “Land”. The SUPPORT menu is split in two “SUPPO” and “RT”. The “SUPPO” goes to the BLOG page and the “RT” goes to SUPPORT !!!!
    Its been like that for 7 days now !
    Its embarrassing.

  24. Razrcut Brooks says:

    @ Al Supercharge… LOLWUT? The Sl web page works fine, you numb-nut. Hallucinate much?

  25. - says:

    The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts. Programers all around the world have shown, that their programs do get more inefficient, the more computation-power you give them, as they have to care less 🙂

  26. - says:

    The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts. Programers all around the world have shown, that their programs do get more inefficient, the more computation-power you give them, as they have to care less 🙂

  27. - says:

    The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts. Programers all around the world have shown, that their programs do get more inefficient, the more computation-power you give them, as they have to care less 🙂

  28. - says:

    The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts. Programers all around the world have shown, that their programs do get more inefficient, the more computation-power you give them, as they have to care less 🙂

  29. - says:

    The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts. Programers all around the world have shown, that their programs do get more inefficient, the more computation-power you give them, as they have to care less 🙂

  30. Solomon Devoix says:

    Off-topic for this, but since there’s no other official venue…

    A heads-up, folks. LL, in its infinite wisdom, has forbidden SL ‘childrens groups’ from having a build/exhibit at the 5th birthday celebration. Oh, child avatars can attend, but they’re forbidden to contribute. Way to go, LL. Trying to set new standards for politically correct cowardice?

    Speaking of standards… why do the TOS and Community Standards shake the finger at discrimination if LL, the author of those documents, is going to freely engage in it?

    Hypocrites and cowards. Every one.

  31. Sean Heying says:

    – says “The new and improved speed of the Mono VM is nice and dandy .. but honestly not worth much, without a way for scripters to gauge the efficiency of their own scripts.”

    Buy a region – and then, like me and many other scripters both professional and hobbiest you will see the script time.

    Thanks Babbage! I can’t wait for this to be rolled out, and I can smell it coming!

    Solomon, I agree, it is a neutered SL5B now run completely in PG sims with many builds prohibited, but the Kids the only ones banned. This however is not the right blog, wait until Dusty aka Katt posts one on SL5B 😀

  32. Satori Taringa says:

    I’ve been testing some very complex scripts and the Mono truely runs
    much faster, from 10x to 200x depending on the functions. This will
    lead to relieving lag on the servers due to less overhead of running
    scripts as well as allowing makers to create some amazing ‘toys’.

  33. I have never been more completely underwhelmed in my entire life..

  34. Al. I had that same problem a few days ago. Seemed to fix itself now though. What browser are you using ?

  35. River Ely says:

    OK, I viewed the movie. I understand ray tracing, have done complex 3d modeling in the past for industrial use.

    I come back to my post over and over, a perpetual moan you may think.

    We don’t really need this, its a nice idea, something for the wish list, but the lindens that are working on Ray Tracing in LL would be better disposed to assisting resolving issues in the main grid.

    At one time we could more around with full draw selected, oh, and apart from night/day/ the sky was the same for everyone. Now we are down to 128m or 64m in order to wait for the things nearby to rez. Fix it.

    At one time we could zip over sim borders while wearing 1000 prim boots, 600 prim hair and 500 prims of attachments, Now as a Ruth, I crash 9 times out of ten while crossing a sim edge. Fix It.

    At one time, we did not get complained when voice was not activated, take it away, fix it.

    I get tired of saying this over and over, FIX IT before you mess about with more ‘New Stuff’. We don’t need dazzle, windlight, voice, 50+scripted prims, they don’t work and they lag the hell out of everything. Get on with the core product, fix it.

  36. Mwaaa says:

    >>35

    you moron.

    a resident wrote the ray tracer, not a linden. read before you criticize.

  37. wth says:

    Since when did it become fashionable to openly insult ppl.

  38. Tegg B says:

    Ravanne Sullivan Says:”No matter how fast and efficiant the scripts running on the sims are they are worthless when the core systems fail. No matter how nice the tires on your car, no matter how wonderful the transmission, no matter how comfortable the seats if the engine won’t run you are going no where.”
    Yeah well our transmission is stuffed too so putting the entire mechanical team to work exclusively on the engine isn’t going to get the car out of the pits any faster, might as well have comfy seats while watching the bald tires get changed 🙂

  39. Argent Stonecutter says:

    THOU GLEEKING DOGHEARTED CLOTPOLE! Just because my message had a link to the BBC’s Shakespearian insult generator, so that #36 could improve the quality of his insults, the blog refused to post it. THOU LUMPISH BAT-FOWLING HAGGARD! That wasn’t SPAM, that was the BBC! THOU SPLEENY GUTS-GRIPING FUSTILARIAN! You’ll have to google for it, folks.

  40. Anylyn Hax says:

    Mwaaa, don’t call him a moron.
    He is absolutely right, nothing gets really fixed here. Most of the residents have problems to send a object remotely (See Torleys newest Mass Educational video). One of the greatest problem the residents have is 1) how to turn OFF voice. 2) how to not be a victim of griefing and harassment 3) how to not be nacked each time they rez. 4) how to find a place to gamble
    One per million knows what ray tracing is nor need it.

  41. Hewitt Huet says:

    The mere thought of ray tracing is both hilarious and terrifying in light of the decadent delights of windlight – heh. As far as insults go, well I suppose it gets pretty ugly blog-wise when yet another eye-candy thingie is shown here. Again ppl say “bells and whistles but no real improvement.”

    To Cheshyr and others – we are scripters. We understand what the Mono vm is and does. We understand client side vs. server. We understands ips and mips. *The average resident does not*. They see these posts and wonder, “Wtf does ir mean to me, the customer/end user?”

    They see a new “feature” and roll their eyes after having walked over the debris of Windlight and Voice and Sculpties. Torley has discovered that there are dozens of features (some largely useless) in the viewer to keep him in the multimedia arena forever. As the Roman Emperor said, “Bread and Circuses”.

    I know what ray tracing is. Some of you here do too. I’ll bet anything that a lot of residents do not. So to you advanced folks here: Not everyone understands all this geek talk. They do understand the concept of delivering what you promise, and don’t like to feel like there’s smoke blown up their a**es.

    LL, are you listening?!?!?

  42. Mills Gazov says:

    Will there be any way to compare current LSL script against Mono scripts?

    And is there a difference in speed beween Mono and LSL when external communication such as HTTP, XMLRPC and Email is used?

  43. Maike says:

    > Vincent Nacon Says:
    > May 30th, 2008 at 6:43 PM
    >@11 and 13: Ravanne, those major problems in teleporting
    > and rezzing does have to do with bottleneck problems in
    > bandwidth by the database’s speed. Using Mono would
    > help server’s database faster, so bottleneck would become less
    > of a problem.
    >
    > Do your research next time and don’t be a fool.

    Oh you seem to know this stuff good. It would be nice if you could take some time to explain it because I thought that the exact opposite would be true:
    Faster scripts
    -> more database access possible in a given time
    -> more database problems.

    But I know little about it so please explain the background to me.

  44. DanielRavenNest Noe says:

    Without inside information, we don’t really know where the bottlenecks might be, but we can examine things on general IT principles. There is a big bunch of hardware boxes in two or three colo facilities that run “simulations”. One sim = 1 map region. Typically these are dual-core/dual cpu boxes (4 cores) running one simulation per core. Each sim must accomplish various things: calculate physics of moving objects, execute scripts, communicate with the players (you guys), and fetch stuff from the asset databases.

    So one limit is processor speed. If it can complete one part of its tasks faster, that leaves more time to do other things. HAVOK4 was supposed to let physics run faster, and mono is supposed to let scripts run faster. All other things being equal, that would leave more time to fetch assets and talk to players.

    Now, another limit is network bandwidth, both internal, between parts of the SL system, and external to us players. If the “pipe” to us players is already maxed out, then having more time to try and send us stuff faster won’t make a difference. If the external network is not maxed out, we might see an improvement in rez times, in busy regions, cause the box we are talking to has more time to talk back to us.

    On the other side, between the sims and the asset databases, there are a couple more limits. One is the internal network bandwidth. The other is how many requests the database can respond to internally per second. Without knowing more about how each part works, its hard to tell what effect faster scripts will have.

    There is also a secondary effect to consider, as players respond to changes in the system – writing more complex scripts and wearing more attachments, for example.

    Right now, you get charged mostly for how much land you own – which really means how many prims you are allowed. Your are not charged extra if you use a ton of complex scripts, high detail textures, or fill your club with guests who bring their own resource use. The other folks in the sim will *feel* the effects of those resources being used, but you are not charged for it. So you dont have an incentive to be efficent until the lag affects you too.

    Maybe thats the root problem – what people pay isnt matched to what they use, as far as the share of the resources linden labs supplies.

  45. Argent Stonecutter says:

    There’s a javascript raytracer at http://www.slimeland.com/raytrace, by the way. 🙂

  46. kunoichi says:

    @44:
    There is certianly a lot of truth in your statement.

    However, suggesting that users in future being billed per prim attachment instead of land prims, is something econimically unviable (even when an LL executive went to the length of addressing the payers of his wages “bling-tards” a statement which silently disappeared later wihtout a real apology to users). More so since the ARC meter has already proven highly erratic and instable.

  47. Mwaaa says:

    >>40
    Tis such fools as you that makes the world full of ill-favoured children. (ok thanks argent that was pretty handy)

    WORDY RANT WARNING

    this is addressed to everybody who can’t offer anything but blind criticism:

    People commenting on this blog offer next to nothing constructive when all they can complain about is the things that are broken. You have to understand that seeing people getting red-faced and raging about things that they don’t even seem to understand is really depressing for the people on SL who actually work with the lindens to fix these problems to the best of their abilities.

    Screaming and crying does not accomplish anything. Purposefully misunderstanding things to further justify acting like a simpleton will not lead to change or fixes. I can see where the lindens are coming from, writing nastygrams about old video cards and “blingtards” when this is the kind of feedback they get from the average player.

    Not to imply that I’m being constructive, either, but the efforts of a good friend being pinned as a linden’s wasteful fantasy is just insulting. Here are some interesting points:

    A) If Babbage had written a raytracer in LSL, which he did not, what if he had done it in his spare time? I imagine that him and many other lindens put in more time than most of you have ever worked in your lives. If a Linden has been burning the midnight oil to get features out to you ingrates, and he wants to take some time to play around, that’s in his right. Don’t criticize it. They’re not machines.
    B) Shut up.
    C) Remain shut up.
    D) If Babbage is a developer whose primary focus is on Mono and sim-side code, do you HONESTLY think it would be an efficient use of resources to dump him on the database problem, when you’re not sure what his specialty is? He might be a brilliant virtual machine coder, but absolutely flat-out no help when put in front of a massive database. Having absolutely no information about the resources available at LL does not make one an efficient manager of developer resources.

    How about some thanks to the folks who have lost sleep and dealt with the aggravation that these issues have caused? If they didn’t do their jobs, you’d have no SL to complain about at all.

  48. Re23 to 24 & 34
    They fixed the website this morning (for IE users)

    Thanks babbage linden

    PS Razrcut Brooks – See 34 – Be sure of your facts before you embarrass yourself with insulting remarks.

  49. Elissa Bristol says:

    @ 47, I have a feeling this person is actually a Linden, hence the reason they can use a first name only name. For people with fast computers, Mono isn’t going to improve anything. However, I appreciate the hard work the Lindens put in, aside from Frontier, whom is the rudest person I’ve met in-world. Haha….j/p

  50. Aaron says:

    @49 “For people with fast computers, Mono isn’t going to improve anything.” You’re incorrect about that one, Mono doesn’t improve client side viewer performance, only script performance it won’t make a difference whether you’re on a high-spec PC or a commodore 60.

  51. Mora Eldritch says:

    Awesome! I’m really excited about the progress on Mono. Thanks for your work Lindens! 🙂

  52. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Aaron@50: 60, 64, whatever works? 🙂

  53. BlueWall says:

    Cool! Recent inventory and everything 🙂

  54. Escort DeFarge says:

    I’d like to participate in the Early Access program to assist with polishing up the final release – any idea when the EA deploy would be?

  55. Aaron says:

    …@52 I couldn’t remember if it was c64 last I used was an Atari 800 lol never got into commodore, Can’t wait til mono is released though barely able to get by with the current VM when you’re more used to optimizing with rendering agents, that is if it all turns out well ¬_¬

  56. @ 12 and 15. You should think about what you are saying too. Isn’t it absolutely coincidental that all the problems of the last few weeks coincide with the introduction of Havok and WL, and there are still loads of borks with Havok. Yeah, so a few sims crash a bit less, whoopee do. What that means now is that when the code gets its knickers in a twist, things are screweed up for longer than before, like comms not working. Doh.

    As for better Mono performance, well yes. That’s a double edged sword too. Sure, they execute faster, but don’t forget the file size is way larger, people will go mad with all the new capabilities, and that will mean more larger files, that’s yet more for the already borked, full and falling over asset servers to handle, plus the internal networks, so don’t assume Mono is the magic solution. It may be faster, when it works, but the likelihood is the change will mean the whole thing working even less than it does now. Ravanne is right. They said that about Voice too, because it was external, but there are user settings, dots to draw, hearing distances to calculate, speech gestures to implement etc etc that weren’t there before, so that had an effect on performance too.

    We wouldn’t scream so much if LL hadn’t ignored users for TWO YEARS on fixing things, and rushing out buggy borked shiny after shiny after shiny. Dropping premiums and active users and hours used are showing that people really want stability over new shinies.

    Instead all we get is borked, half baked, ill thought out, new buggy stuff which overloads the systems even more. That is not the WTG…

  57. zsuzsatomsen says:

    I can no longer get into the Beta Grid. I keep getting the dreaded “unable to connect to a simulator” message 😦

  58. Ann Otoole says:

    @57 – Some percentage, probably significant, of the decline in participation is from Windlight frying systems below nVidia 7xxx level. But I seriously doubt the WL team will allow this situation to see the light of day. How do you survey this effect since those people are not coming back. They couldn’t afford an up to date system and now they have none so poof goes some percentage of former residents. My old system popped when I was around a lot of glowy windlight eye candy. I remember feeling the heat increase as I got near the eye candy. Next thing you know… pop and a cloud of ozone. And before the fanboiz cry case cooling you can bet I keep my stuff right. Been in this business for longer than most of you have been out of high school.

  59. Zi Ree says:

    @59 Ann Otoole: A software does not fry your graphics card. If it overheats, the card was not properly cooled or you set it to overclocking. Cleaning fans and applying fresh heat compound helps there.

  60. Ann Otoole says:

    @60 Whatever Zi. You happen to be incorrect on this one. If a chip is made to do things it was not intended to do for long periods of time it is going to overheat and fry with the standard cooling that was part of the technology when these older computers were built.

    Oh please do explain how LL needs to tell people when they log in that they need to have a computer that is less than 2 years old or they need to open the case and redo the thermal compounds without managing to degrade the chips. I.e.; They need to take their old computer to the shop and pay the tech to clean, reseat the chips, and reapply thermal compound, a process that will cost more than a new computer.

    I agree. LL should warn people they need a modern computer before entering SL. That will eliminate the poorer countries and schools won’t it. That should fit right into the plan LL has to reach a larger audience.

    Sorry but SL is not supposed to be just for us high end geeks that have been in the business for decades. If thats all SL is for then close the doors up.

    The proper solution is a light client that has no Windlight code at all. Sorry but Windlight, as much as we love it, is causing problems for a lot of people and the new CEO needs to deal with it. Either by ordering a lightweight client be built and deployed or by adding a test to warn people with anything less than nVidia 7xxx that they are risking their system by entering secondlife. Now its still possible to be in SL on an older system but you can’t go into areas with a lot of glow/WL features. But how does a resident know before they attempt to enter a sim that is risky? Ahh we need the SRC (Sim Render Cost) metric displayed before committing to finish the TP. SRC should take care of the avatar render cost factor on mainland sims eh? No avatars no ARC.

  61. Zi Ree says:

    @61 Ann Otoole: Nope, I’m sorry. A chip can not be “made to do” what it was not intended for. It just does what it is capable of doing. The cooling is made to dissipate the heat generated by the chip at maximum load. You can’t drive it beyond maximum load, it’s that simple.

    Replacing the thermal compound is a job that can be done by a skilled tech in less than 20 minutes. Only a rip-off type of shop would charge you a fortune for this. And just for the record: I built my system back in 2001, upgrading pieces here and there. But only this year I had to replace the thermal compound of my CPU (not even the GPU, mind you). So seven years without maintenance is quite good, I think.

    By the way, I run SL on a laptop, too. With a crappy Intel Chipset inside. It still runs. It doesn’t overheat and it doesn’t crash more often than my main system. So smaller machines are well capable of running Second Life.

    You can disable the Windlight extensions in the preferences. Just switch off “Atmospheric Shaders” in the Custom settings. No place in SL is more “risky” than others. As I said before. SL does not fry anyones graphics card or CPU. If the system can’t handle the load, it simply runs slower or in bad cases crashes. But it will not get fried. Overheating components in a computer are without any exception due to broken (or improperly dimensioned) cooling, broken hardware (or sensors) or overclocking.

  62. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    @62
    Actually it is quite possible to run a chip at more than its intended duty cycle. And running a chip at or near its maximum capabilities is quite capable of destroying the chip. No manufacturer designs a consumer chip to run at a 100% duty cycle,

  63. Zena Juran says:

    I’m at Sandbox Goguen and my scripts will either not load or not save. My island “South” is on the beta grid.. can you make that MONO?

  64. Ann Otoole says:

    Never eh?
    Then why did LL fix a defect that was related to this problem, as described by a resident, in the past?
    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-746

    Older systems have degraded circuit strata from use over time. Then when you start to push the limits then bang the failures can happen. It is a simple matter of electronics. Zi apparently has not worked in the circuit design and maintenance business. I’ve replaced many a comm chip that was fried because of a combination of noisy power over time coupled with the demands of a new software version on the data acquisition board. The chips simply fried. The solution was to install rather expensive surge protection and to get the power cleaned up. But without the new version of the code the older chips did not fail within 2 weeks When the new code was introduced they ran the chips into the dirt (increased monitoring = increased communications) and they fried. There was no cooling issues, only integrated circuit design reality.

    Zi you sound like a programmer that has never actually designed electronics nor have you done any circuit level troubleshooting. This is a common error many self assumed programmer experts make as they really don’t know anything about voltage levels, heating inside the strata, what transistors do, what happens over time when power noise goes through, and how increasing the demands and usage of seldom used portions of logic that may never have been subjected to serious QA testing can induce failures. Just because an instruction set is available does not mean it was stress tested with strata degradation. and this degradation will ignore a fresh coat of thermal compound.

    Older systems will fail if subjected to more than they can handle after the system’s 2 year life expectancy has passed. Just because you happen to have a lucky laptop is meaningless. I have 2 laptops that fried running minimal secondlife without windlight. Now I have a dual SLI rig that fried running nothing but Secondlife. Thats 3 computers right here. And if you were on the sldev list you would be aware that there is currently discussion about how disabling atmospheric shaders does not turn off windlight and the system is still doing much more than it was pre windlight.

    I’ll never forget the arrogant C programmer that could not figure out why his code produced a graphic display looking like a peanut instead of the circle it should have on a laser micrometer we built. He had wired the sensors to a switching power supply. Duh. I designed and built a high power isolation system using the proper type of power supply and optical isolators and suddenly his precious program started working right. Programmer time wasted? 6 weeks of fruitless troubleshooting because of arrogance that prevented a mere programmer from asking an engineer for help.

    The vast majority of programmers are not electronics experts. Neither are PC Techs.

    Older systems can fry because Windlight, whether the shaders are on or off, is pushing the limits of the old technology. Combine that with years of noisy electrical power eroding the substrates and bingo gpu failure. Or CPU failure. Or memory failure. Or all of the above. Older systems are fine for MS Office/open Office but they are not really going to last a long time in a heavy 3D immersion environment coded for the latest technology. Thus the need for a light weight SL client with no Windlight code. I.e.; old Nicholaz viewers. Perhaps someone from the open source community will step up and deliver a light weight client based on the old pre windlight code and maintain the critical elements to keep it usable with SL. That effort might be worth donations for sure.

  65. Zi Ree says:

    @63 Ravanne Sullivan: You can overclock a chip at driver level, yes. But this is nothing Second Life does. And manufacturers who don’t build their hardware to run at 100% load are not on the market for very long. If a chip can’t deliver its proclaimed performance during its lifetime, it’s broken.

    @65 Ann Otoole: Never. Your link points to an issue that was closed with “Needs more Info”, there was no fix for it. The only hint is a claim from another resident, like yours. But nothing Linden Lab would have acknowledged.

    A properly designed circuit (and I stress *properly* here again) does *not* fail, regardless on the load youo put on it within its specifications. Older hardware might fail, this is a fact I never denied. But this isn’t due to beiong overdriven, it’s just due to them becoming old. They might fail earlier because of the heat (you see this with CPUs often), but again, they don’t fail because they were overloaded. And we’re speaking of shortening the lifetime by maybe 30 percent or so, not of “frying the chip” by simply running a 3D application that doesn’t even stress the system as much as a high end ego-shooter nowadays.

    Again, a company that sells chips which aren’t stress tested properly and fail within their specifications will not be on the market for very long. I assume, NVidia, ATi and Intel do their homework in this regard. A programmer doesn’t have to know about the internal workings of a chip (I know some of it, but not nearly enough to do diagnosis on a die level, but there are only very few people who can). A programmer uses the provided data sheet and chip specifications to build an application or driver.

    I am on the SLDEV mailing list, but I don’t read each and every posting on there, it’s simply too much. But I will follow up on the thread when I read it. Thanks for pointing it my way.

    I have two laptops (both running SL with windlight fine) one Desktop, and I know the systems of a number of friends. Not a single one of them has ever failed fatally while running Second Life. They are all still in good condition, and I see those people online nearly every day. If your claim was true, there would be a huge number of people just disappearing. This is not the case.

    You are talking about someone who built a system themselves without either knowing the specifications or deliberately ignoring them. I am talking about high skilled techs at NVidia, etc. building integrated circuits and releasing the chips complete with full specifications. I am talking about vendors that pick up these chips and build a graphics card around it, complete with proper cooling, drivers and power supplies. If they screw up constantly, they die on the market. This is not “some arrogant C programmer”, this is big computer parts manufacturers.

    Older systems can fry during normal operation as well, just because they are – old. Of course, high system load causes quicker degradation, just as driving a car at top speed for most of the time makes it fail earlier. But neither the car nor the chip just “fry”, they simply start aging quicker. And proper cooling helps to remove some of this aging very effectively.

  66. Motor Loon says:

    Come on now… lighten up people and injoy the fact that LL is actually doing something to improve the grid here.

    It don’t matter to the normal user that the scripts run faster. Mabye the grid will run better… mabye it won’t… no matter…

    To the normal user only one thing here will count…
    Script on MONO will have more memory to play with – that means more advanced scripts is possible – something YOU can benefit from as a user. Personally I’m at a point where I can’t cram any more features into my motorcycles, despite splitting up my scripts as much as possible, so with MONO my long list of features-to-add will be no problem at all.

    Sit back and be patient, and strongly consider stopping the constant complaining and start injoying your 2nd life which really ain’t that bad… unless you make it so yourself…

  67. Catwise Yoshikawa says:

    I have the same problem zsuzsatomsen has.

    I can no longer get into the Beta Grid. I keep getting the “unable to connect to a simulator” . And I tried to uninstall, delete temp folder, second life folder, reinstal, and still getting the same message ¬¬

  68. shockwave yareach says:

    As I script and build stuff, I’m looking forward to the benefits of Mono in all that I do.

    I am also looking forward to being able to log in, being able to upload textures, crossing sims without my vehicles being wrecked, teleporting reliably and buying/selling correctly. Yes sir, I look forward to actually being able to use SL as it was intended. But then again, I’ve always been a radical dreamer.

  69. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Motor Loon: Mono scripts have 4x the RAM available, but they use 3x the RAM to do the same things, so the actual increase in RAM is modest.

    Also, mono scripts have more startup and restart overhead. For most scripts this isn’t an issue: they just sit there once rezzed and the higher performance VM is a net win, and it’s mitigated by the fact that multiple instances of the same Mono script share code, but rezzing mono scripts and transferring them from one region to another still requires more work from the server.

  70. kate says:

    I have the same problem zsuzsatomsen and Catwise have.

    I can’t log on Beta Grid, i allways get the message “unable to connect to a simulator”. I have download and installed the lasest version but i keep getting the same error. Could someone help or give advises to solve that? ty

  71. Corax Homewood says:

    I just tried 10 times in a row to log in to the beta grid, using 1.20.0. All 10 times I got the same error: Login failed. Unable to connect to a simulator. Is the test grid borked? Is anybody getting in at all?

  72. Corax Homewood says:

    Update: I was able to get in by logging into a specific sim, in my case Ahern. Many of the sims are offline, but if you can’t log in, try entering one of the following sims into the “Start Location” box: Ahern, Morris, Sandbox Island Extension, Balance, Bethel, Fame, Fortuna, Sandbox Goguen, Sandbox Cordova, Abbotts, Sandbox Wanderton MONO. There are other sims available too, these are just a few I confirmed were working.

    If you don’t have a “Start Location” box on your login screen, then go to Edit > Preferences > General and check the “Show Start Location on Login Screen” box.

  73. Rex Cronon says:

    I think that if u try to login to beta and u can’t it might be because the sim u try to login is down. Try a different sim.

  74. Cherry Czervik says:

    Waiting for Mono to hit, as I am not a scripter I can’t really comment. What I can comment on is the lack of time inworld of the many people who were, like me, absolutely diehard supporters of LL and loving the pioneering spirit that was here. Like them, I am starting to fade away so maybe I will just never SEE Mono at all.

    It’s when your user base sell up and stop caring that something needs to be done to make them feel wanted. That will extend to corporations too, no doubt.

  75. kate says:

    Thank you Corax for wour comment. I didnt know about the show start location on the login screen. Now i can log on on the beta grid in a different sim. tyvm

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