Bugfix 1.21 Server Deploy Tue 05/13 – Thu 05/15

Update 2008-05-15 09:50 : Today’s rolling restart is complete. There are currently about 100-150 regions down; we are working on getting them back up right now.

Update 2008-05-15 09:05 : Today’s rolling restart is about 81% complete.

Update 2008-05-15 08:27 : Today’s rolling restart is about 62% complete.

Update 2008-05-15 06:59 : Today’s rolling restart is about 22% complete.

Update 2008-05-15 06:30 : Please note that regions restarted during this rolling restart may be down for as long as 30 minutes. This is because of recent changes to how regions are assigned to hosts. We will try to mitigate this downtime in the future, but for the current restart, please do not panic if your region does not come back as fast as it has in previous rolling restarts.

Update 2008-05-15 06:01 : The second half of the rolling restart has begun.

Update 2008-05-14 09:42 : The first-half rolling restart is complete. There are about 150 regions still to start up after the rolling restart; those should be complete within 10 minutes or so. The rolling restart to the rest of the grid will go forward tomorrow morning at 5AM as planned.

Update 2008-05-14 08:35 : The rolling restart is 80% complete.

Update 2008-05-14 07:27 : The rolling restart is 49% complete.

Update 2008-05-14 06:15 : The rolling restart is about 17% complete. We’ve made some changes to the system infrastructure over the last few weeks. These changes affect how hosts are assigned regions to run, and have reduced the load on our central database. Indeed, our central database has been humming along fairly well recently — not completely without trouble, but doing far better than it did in April. Alas, the asset cluster seems to have figured out that things were working better there, and has jumped in to bite us. One side affect of these changes is that regions are taking longer to start back up during the rolling restart than they did in previous rolling restarts. As such, if your region goes down, don’t panic if it doesn’t come back in 10 minutes. However, if it stays down more than 30 minutes, please contact support.

Update 2008-05-14 05:26 : The rolling restart to the first half of the grid will begin momentarily. I will post “% complete” updates hourly.

Update 2008-05-13 21:42 : I’ve temporarily closed off comments on this blog post so that the 150-comment limit isn’t used up with questions about current asset server problems; I want to save room in the comment thread for comments relevant to this topic.

Update 2008-05-13 20:06 : the 1-rack roll is finished. Updated regions are on version 1.21.1.87495, non-updated regions are on version 1.21.1.86182.

We will be rolling out a deploy of an updated version of the Second Life server over the course of the next three days. This patched version of 1.21 includes some high-priority bug fixes; these include a fix for repeated IM-to-email messaging on login due to corrupted data, as well as a few other crucial security fixes. This is not a major upgrade of the server, and in any event no new client downloads will be needed because of it.

The rolling restart will proceed in three stages.

  • Tuesday, 05/13, 7:30PM : we will do a pilot rolling restart to about 150 regions
  • Wednesday, 05/14, 5:00-9:00AM : we will do a rolling restart of half of the grid
  • Thursday, 05/15, 5:00-9:00AM : we will do a rolling restart of the rest of the grid

As with all rolling restarts, regions should only be down for a few minutes for up to 30 minutes. If your region stays down for more than 20 45 minutes, it almost certainly means something went amiss; in that case, please contact support. There is no easy way to predict exactly when a given region will be restarted, and it will not be possible to delay the restart once it has been announced for your region.

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150 Responses to Bugfix 1.21 Server Deploy Tue 05/13 – Thu 05/15

  1. Moll Dean says:

    Good luck guys 😀

  2. Echo says:

    How exactly will this affect our second life? As in improvements…

  3. Gil Druart says:

    .. has anyone in LL land noticed that the asset servers are completely, totally and utterly borked *again*? I only ask because it’s been over an hour now and with not a word on the Grid Status thingy ….. but there; I guess the customers are always the first to know.

  4. Argent Stonecutter says:

    This would be “1.21.1” if you were still doing 3 level versions?

  5. Sorry to post here but…

    How do you login to

    http://status.secondlifegrid.net/

    to be able to post a comment in reply to the blog posts there?

    and yes.. I did file a support ticket (over a week ago)

  6. Tali Rosca says:

    Can we get an official word on whether the current state of megaprims are affected by this update?

  7. How is SVC-2283?
    If it is fixed, I will test it.

  8. This update won’t take away the ability to create megaprims, will it?

  9. Does this include any fixes for OpenSpace regions?

  10. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Echo@2: “Security fixes” are usually, though not always, good things… but they don’t tend to be explained while the security holes that are being fixed are still open. I hope they explain them afterwards, instead of letting us notice three months later that (for example) we can’t put no-transfer animations into HUD attachments without having to “drop” them in world and risk losing them, because they decided that was an easier security fix than actually treating attachments like first-class citizens. 😦

  11. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Wildefire@8: oooh, good call. That’s a depressingly likely reason. Oh, Katt…?

    Garth@5: I think the answer is you don’t. 😦

  12. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    Are gonna reintroduce the prim size limit (megaprim) actually removed? If so please tell us before so i can make some. -.-

  13. Jayden B says:

    Oh darn, I hope one of the fixes isn’t re-establishing the prim constraints.

    If it is at least I was able to make prims with 1M increments from 11x11x11 to 128x128x128. They will be handy at least.

  14. Alvi Halderman says:

    lol.

  15. Nijole Weitmann says:

    Why have i been frozen? I just down last night aroung 11 pm cst here it is 6:45 pm the following day and i am still frozen!!! I was thinking of upgrading but this might just change my mind PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!

  16. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Nice to see something actually being done about the faults when they occur as opposed to waiting for months before doing something about it. Hopefully this will re-establish the stability we had shortly after the last major upgrade. Also, praying this fixes the skirt issue. Skirts are – again – not rezzing. Not good form at all linden’s for allowing this to happen on a constant basis.

  17. Solar Legion says:

    Indeed – good for them to be fixing issues ….

    Um – skirts are rezzing just fine by the by. It’s not an SL wide issue. Should still be fixed however.

  18. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Jayden@13: how about some 0.1×0.1×11..100 or so, for cables and poles and the like?

  19. Angelic Greenwood says:

    Looks like you’ve started it early. I crashed, and now can’t get back on. *thumbs up*.

  20. Jayden B says:

    Thats a good idea Argent *starts creating another batch*

  21. Linden Censors Hard At Work says:

    I noticed that from the previous blog post:”
    Bring your “A” game
    Monday, May 12th, 2008 at 6:10 PM by: Storrs Linden ”

    …that the Linden sensors are deleting posts of all the content creators quitting SL…

    How sad that they never get a clue on just how mad paying residents have become and have stooped to deleting the “bad news” posts.

    Pretty much of a new low for Linden Labs…..

  22. Any fixes are welcome
    but i strongly disagree with your new information policy to post all issues on Secondlifegird.net first of all all your links referring to the site are outdated and second of all the regular resident doesn’t know how to find this side. Of course it creates the idea that SL is okay since the main site stays clean of bad news which is of course a bit misleading!

    Also let me see that I am exhausted today from replacing over 100 inventoy items from todays purchases which have disappeared from my customers “closets” even when all products are “copy”

    No announcement from your side of on your well hidden page, of course when there is nothing to read my customers will blame me!

    That’s all avoidable and is been played on our backs!
    Not Good!

  23. U M says:

    These past few months have been nothing but a nightmare for many. The Month of May doesnt look to be any better. But what are we going to do? We can always leave, or better yet hope LL gets their ASSet sever togther for the summer rush. But If they don`t i said this the past 3 summer its going to be a “LONG” LONG SUMMER” if things don`t improve………..

  24. MR Little says:

    @ 10 odds are some of the security fixes have to do with what is going on with Debian at the moment

    @ 22 Regular resident’s don’t know about the blog as it is, so moving the grid status to a new page is no big deal. Just bookmark the new site (or read the updates on the top left side of the blog)

    In fact i think it’s better now, the issues show up on the login page now and don’t get bumped off there because of a few normal blog posts.

    and i have to say this twitter thing is pretty cool.

  25. Aminom Marvin says:

    MAKE YOUR MEGAPRIMS NOW PEOPLE!
    I have it from several sources that the recent megaprim exploit will be PATCHED with this update! So, make a list of megas that would be useful for your purposes, and make them!

    This client has a modification to allow you to make megaprims:
    http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/

  26. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Hmmm… and the login banner is now warning people to keep their password safe.

    They trying to tell us something?

  27. U M says:

    agent where? If you mean Login thats been for awhile………..Am I missing a place that is new where they posting it?

  28. Prospero Linden says:

    To answer a few questions–

    As Argent Stonecutter suggests, we’re not going to tell you all about the security fixes until after they have all been fixed. Watch this space. I’m not going to comment on any details beyond that.

    @19 : in fact, the deploy *hadn’t* started when you had your problems. If you’re having trouble logging in, please contact support.

    Regarding the debian ssh vulnerability : in fact, that did hit us, but isn’t something relevant to the server software. That is at a lower system, level, and a number of people in operations spent some time this morning cleaning our systems up so as not to be hit by that vulnerability. It turns out that since most of our systems are still based on Debian Sarge, we were by and large *not* vulnerable. We’ve cleared out any suspect SSH keys (including, sadly, mine), and are replacing them with good keys.

  29. A PISSED OFF RETAILER says:

    After Linden Labs last Server BugFix Every Single one of my 1 Prim Box vendors (you know the Kind where you make a Box, set a Price, slap on your Texture, and set the Contents to Sale) had it’s Price Reset to 10$L. for the Next 12-15 Hours before I had Logged in Cutomers were Taking advantage of the “Linden Labs ERROR sale” at my store and telling thier friends… Lost Revenu was well Lets just say I could have Paid my Tier.

    SO WHAT IS LINDEN LABS GOING TO DO TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING WITH THIER NEWEST BUG FIX?

  30. Youri Ashton says:

    2 months ago i boughed a brand new system;
    4GB DDR3 RAM Memory, dual core (x64) CPU, Club 3D HD3870X2 video card, for short, just top of the line basicly. And it still isnt able to run SL like it does run other games! SL is leaking memory like its water and it’s lagging like hell! I just keep wondering why SL keeps askig for more and more while it’s engine keeps the same and no real big changes are made! Lindens, PLEASE do something!

  31. U M says:

    Was the password issues that bad?

  32. Shani says:

    Please update the beta/mono grid download page- still 1.20.0. now required to download version 1.20.6 but no download was available? 😕

  33. Dahlia Trimble says:

    @31

    Your computer will probably never be able to run sl as fast as it can run other games because sl is far more complex and much of the content is not designed with rendering speed in mind. Most games are designed by professional teams of trained designers and go through rigorous checks to make sure every single item is fully optimized for fast rendering. Can you find any places in SL that are similar? If there are perhaps they should be suggested for inclusion in the Showcase.

  34. P2P User says:

    @#31

    seems to me SL works kind of like most P2P programs such as Morpheus, Limewire, Kazza…… it Takes Un-used Bandwith and CPU from it’s users to “FEED” the collective Network. thus In turn using all the Free CPU and Bandwith you have untill your machine is turned into a LAG FEST. I to have this Problem Running on an Alienware Area 51 ALX with a T1 High Speed Connection.

  35. Prospero Linden says:

    Dahlia hits the nail right on the head. SL is fundamentally different from online games in that users create content, so the content does not tend to be optimized for rendering speed. There’s a second factor : with many online games, the install comes on a DVD and uses up more space on your disk than the Second Life client install. Why? You already have many of the textures you’re going to see in-world on your disk, installed with the client. With Second Life, it’s impossible to predict what textures you’re going to see ahead of time, because anybody can upload any texture at any time. Indeed, only the textures included in the “library” are pre-existing on your computer with the client install. As such, when you go to a new area, typically all of the textures have to be downloaded to your computer. This is why things take much longer in SL to rez than they do in online games.

  36. Jayden B says:

    Thanks Prospero for responding, it’s nice that some Lindens care about their customers.

    You are already so many moves ahead of Katt Linden who, it seems, doesn’t see the need to communicate as being very important.

  37. LOL says:

    @#34 & 36

    EXACTLY THE PROBLEM NOOBS NO KNOWING WHEN TO USE FULL BRIGHT, LIGHT, OR GLOW. THATS THE BIGGEST KILLER! YOUR COMPUTER BEING FORCED TO RENDER MORE SHADDOWS THEN IT SHOULD BE! FACE LIGHTS NOW THATS A JOKE! IN RL WHO THE HELL WALKS AROUND WITH A LIGHT ON THIER FACE 24\7

    LOL

  38. Winter Ventura says:

    Your silence on the question of Megaprims… speaks volumes.

  39. WarKirby Magoijiro says:

    Indeed. We’re losing megaprims aren’t we 😦

  40. Balthazar says:

    There is also a fundamental difference between sl and other online games…other online games don’t have as many stability problems.

    I hope this update fixes these problems with the asset servers cause you definiately owe it to the customers of your product to deliver the product we expect and pay for. We have put up with these issues since late 2006 and it’s not like it’s been a rare occurance. Now i am not just jumping on a bandwagon to lay blame and fault with anyone i don’t expect it to be easy to be running an ever expanding database and grid i appreciate it’s an infinitely large beast to deal with but there must be something you guys have learnt from the monitoring of the problems cause they are regular problems there must be enough data there for you to move on fixing this issue well and truly.

  41. Martin Magpie says:

    “As Argent Stonecutter suggests, we’re not going to tell you all about the security fixes until after they have all been fixed. Watch this space. I’m not going to comment on any details beyond that.”

    Well then that just makes this week perfect.

    /end sarcasm.

    LL your really staring to scare the hell out of me.

  42. 11:22PM CST, nonstop asset failure can’t save anything.

    Location Fantasie Wells.

  43. I was extremely disappointed to read (elsewhere) that the megaprim constraint is being “fixed” in this update. See: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andrew_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_05_10

    I’m further disappointed that this post doesn’t even mention it. I’d think that such a profoundly important issue would at least warrant a vague statement that “an exploit allowing over-sized prims to be created will be closed”.

    Or, if you were feeling especially communicative, actually address the issue and discuss why one of the most exciting “features” in years is being “fixed”, and offer an overview of what’s being done towards official support for megaprims.

  44. There was a problem uploading the compiled script due to the following: Asset request: failed. Please try again later.

  45. Patience Masala says:

    Dear LL,

    Is there more probs with the asset servers again? please let me know so when I am working on something and try to take it into my inventory I will not get the following messages: “Unable to load script. Please try again.”, “Asset server didn’t respond in a timely fashion. Object returned to sim.”. Keep up the good work you’ve done just get these asset probs nixed so we can do more then just stand there looking at eachother. Also maybe it is time to think of alternative means of handling assets. Something that is less straining on you guys over there.

    Thanks,
    Patience

  46. Cocoanut Koala says:

    Things aren’t working, guys. I made the mistake of trying to change clothes. Now I’m bald and in a mis-matched outfit, and lucky to be in THAT. Try to wear something and it just sits there, doing nothing, unless you’re lucky and get a message that it can’t be done. (I forget the exactl message, something about object pending for that spot, then something about object can’t be retrieved.)

    coco

  47. Now I get the dreaded blue message that says Second Life. That’s all lol nothing else.

  48. Tristin Mikazuki says:

    Thank you for posting the % complete that way helps

  49. Ewan Mureaux says:

    Will this fact that my island no longer exists? Or is missing lol. At least I got my necessary mega prims done before you took them away again.

    http://youtube.com/user/ewanmureaux

    http://ewanmureaux.wordpress.com/

  50. Youri Ashton says:

    @37: exvuse me?!? It has nothing to do with n00bs or anything, I studied a lot of PC stuff on school so im hardly a n00b at all! To be perfectly honest, everything is pretty much set to lowest settings! So it aint me being a n00b at all! It can only be the game in this case! If i can play the newest games full out, and i can not do that with SL then my pc neither me are the bad things there. If you would be so kind to stop calling people a n00b, thank you!

    @38 Yeah, a lot of people use those. I sure hate them since they cause a lot of lagg somehow. I dont have any problems with doubling the official size (from 10 meters to 20 meters) since that causes hardly lagg at all. Might be something to keep the prims down in SL, less prims less lagg. But mega prims are kinda bad. Seen one last week that a single prim covered an entire sim and was crossing even the neighbouring sims!

    @40: Who says that we all pay? 😉 I refuse to pay anything at all untill SL is stable and there is a very good reason to pay!

  51. Gavin Hird says:

    Please also post the progress in the Grid Status blog. Thanks.

  52. Prospero Linden says:

    Gavin — sorry, I’m only going to post them here. When we started the status blog, we thought it made sense to post the notices about rolling restarts there. However, comments are not enabled on the status blog. We have more changes in our blogging infrastructure coming, but they’re not here yet. In the mean time, notices about new releases– server and client– are _probably_ going to be posted to the regular blog, where as real current emergency “status” things will be all that goes to the status blog. (That is, the grid is down right now, etc.) For things like releases, we do want to have comments enabled; plus, ideally we are going to announce those ahead of time, and thus they will stay relevant longer than your typical status posting.

  53. Pingback: Will the off-topic comenters ever learn? « Common.Sensible

  54. Lyn Mimistrobell says:

    “However, comments are not enabled on the status blog.”

    No change there then. On this blog it has always been the policy to disable comments on “negative” posts (grid down, asset server issues, transactions failing, etc.) and only allow comments on less negative (one could call them “neutral” and in some cases even “positive”). That way you can easily remove any comment and state that they are off-topic.

    So, in order to stay on-topic: Is there an ETA for when the restart will be fully completed? I’m looking forward to a complete list of all the fixed security issues and I do understand that you want to wait till the restart is finished so the issues can no longer be exploited.

  55. xenox shriner says:

    It’s not clear to me how the removal of the ability to create new megaprims is a security update – as it solves none of the underlying problems but instead only limits building opportunities unnessesarily

  56. DanielRavenNest Noe says:

    @35 Prospero

    Im surprised that the SL client either (a) allows a much larger local storage of textures and other assets, or (b) you have a downloadable package of “popular” textures. 500-1000MB cache settings is small by modern hard drive capacities, and I would think it would cut down on load not to have to re-download stuff as often.

  57. Prospero Linden says:

    Re: when the full roll will be done, tomorrow at 10AM, if all goes well. (The second half of the RR will be Thursday morning starting at 5AM.)

    Re: DanielRavenNest Noe : the real problem is that there is a HUGE variety of textures. Every region you go to may have new ones. Yes, we could expand the list of “standard” textures to help things out, and/or expand the cache, but fundamentally the ability of anybody to upload any texture means that no matter what, you’re going to have to be downloading textures in real time.

  58. Xen Akula says:

    When will server update 1.22.0 be rolled out? I ask because according to Andrew Linden, that’s when the fix for the login at 768 meters bug will be fixed.

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6267

    Just wondering…

  59. Verdana Klaar says:

    @54 said “I do understand that you want to wait till the restart is finished so the issues can no longer be exploited.”

    hem…. may be simply because exposing security issues on a public web site before they are solved would itself be a security breach. Don’t you think so ?

  60. Verdana Klaar says:

    opps sorry i read your post comment too fast #54 🙂

  61. Prospero Linden says:

    Xen : Re: 1.22.0, that’s still in beta testing and QA. It’s actually out on some of the regions on Aditi, the beta grid; look for a post about the beta grid in the next few days. 1.22 won’t happen before next week, but I don’t want to promise next week because that will depend on the progress of QA and so forth.

  62. Xen Akula says:

    @61 Understood, thanks very much, Prospero.

  63. I have all my fingers and toes crossed. It seems to take several days of stability for my business to pick up and prosper. The last month was rocky, to say the least.

    May hope triumph over experience.

  64. RichD says:

    Since Prospero mentioned it in @52 I will post these links here. They are related to enabling comments on the grid status page and most importantly requiring all posts and updates to be automatically sent in-world. Please all login and comment & vote.

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-653

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1062

  65. DanielRavenNest Noe says:

    @57 Prospero

    I fully understand that there will always be a need to download new textures. I stay within a fairly limited set of places most of the time,
    and my cache is 850MB, and yet the average age of items in the cache is 3 days. Ive got 250GB of free space on my hard drive, so I could easily handle 100x as much stored cache from an available storage standpoint. I think a lot of players are in a similar situation, as far as having lots of free space.

    I would approach it by asking “how big a cache would it take so that 90% of players would not overflow it in a month”. Im sure there are people who TP constantly all over creation, and no matter how big it is, they will fill it up, but Im also sure there are lots of people like me who travel within a limited set of favorite places most of the time.

    Oh, and I play most of the time with draw distance set to 36 meters,
    using the advanced debug setting “renderfarclip”. Since Im indoors, it doesnt make sense to download all the stuff outside the building I am in.

    Perhaps a “dynamic draw distance” would help, have it set low on TP to load immediate surroundings first. Then if you turn, or walk, or fly, which indicates you need to see more, raise it higher, until it reaches the maximum setting you have chosen. The idea is (1) reduce player perceived lag, cause nearby items get loaded first, and (2) less overall download = less load on your systems

    If it was me, I would have two sliders for draw distance, initial and max, and let players decide if they want less lag (low settings) or “see everything” (high settings), and some rule for interpolating the value in between, like (0.5*distance moved from TP arrival point), ratcheting it up as you move around a new location

  66. Fustrated Oldbie says:

    @49 well done! There is no way that you evidence can be argued. Traffic has been gamed from day one. If LL continues to turn a blind eye; regular residents will just continue to cancel or downgrade their accounts out of frustration.

    Yesterday a bot showed up and bought a parcel of land from me which wasn’t listed for 2 seconds. I was lucky because the owner behind the land bots was kind enough to sell the land back to our group.

    A 2 second mistake could of cost us dearly;
    2 seconds and our group would of been out over $1000 US. Not all land companies are as nice as the one we met yesterday.

    I have one final question: Who is “Lindens Pick” and what is that avatars purpose? Spotlight.

    Keep stacking the deck LL and then watch as we go to openlifegrid.

  67. Broccoli Curry® says:

    PIE!

  68. Donna says:

    @ Prospero. Thanks for the Update and reply to comments, good work! I’m just curious, what’s this SSH Key you were talking about? and sorry yours was replaced too 🙂

  69. Donna says:

    @ Propsero. Oh and are we losing Mega Prims? Update on that? Will we just not be able to create/rez them now? Will the existing ones be removed? Thanks.

  70. Winter Ventura says:

    @69

    The ability to create new MegaPrims is being removed by this patch. All patched regions no longer allow creation of the megaprims. There’s a grassroots movement to share what “unpatched” sims remain, so that we can rez a few more before the door closes forever.

    There’s also been suggested that a sort of “clearinghouse” be put together, to list all the available megas after tomorrow’s final lockdown.

    I, myself, have a box with 486 megas in it. created in as many useful-sounding dimensions as I could think of. A fair number of us have created hundreds of them over the last 2-3 days… and really, we’ll work with what we have. I’m at the point now, where making more would just be “making more”.. not covering any obviously needed dimensions.

    The idea of contributing to some sort of “mega collection” of available prims, is really quite exciting.

  71. Donna says:

    Ooh, I can’t get InWorld but it does all seem exciting LOL

  72. Rayy Giles says:

    Prospero Linden…… then because of rendering, wouldn’t it be benificial for LL to increase the cache size from 1k mb to a higher limit? As for the updates, we have had so many because LL wanted us to see the glorious windlight crap as a standard viewer. Has this been worth it for LL to have the community in uproar for over 2 months????? From a business stand point i would say NOOOO and as a resident and SL business owner i say NOOO!!!!!

  73. Aquarius Paravane says:

    My land is on the new server, my megaprims are still here and I can rez a fine vintage 40m sphere from inventory no problem.

    The server fix, as I understand it, closed a loophole that allowed people to create NEW megaprims.

    Read about the possible exciting future for megaprims here:
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andrew_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_05_10

  74. Pierre Py says:

    If you consider that being disconnected or frozen every 2 minutes is some “minor issue” … I DON’T

  75. Ewan Mureaux says:

    What effect do traffic drones like these have on the server and the grid?

    What effect does networked advertising have on the grid?

  76. Chaz Longstaff says:

    Hey Prospero,

    Oftentimes, us scripters are hit — and hit hard — by other fixes, changes, etc that are included in these updates. I know you don’t want to give away security fixes until they are fixed — but, even if there’s a wait of a day or two, can you please point me to the place where I can see all the changes that this included? Many thanks.

  77. Paula Langset says:

    Sorry, I suffer all the terrible service failures you all are suffering lately, and I’m very sad and frustrated (in SL terms), but still I don’t get some of the repeated complains in the entries here

    1. Comments in blog entries about grid status were always closed. Always. I only remember a couple of times when they were left open, probably by distraction. What the difference was after Lindens moved it to the “hidden” page? Comments still are closed. I don’t really get this complaint at all. If you want to complain about them to be closed in the first place, that’s okay, although I don’t personally mind as I consider commenting in such cases mostly useless. But about them to be closed after the page was moved… I really don’t get it sorry…

    2. I use 4 different computers to enter SL. Two of them are very low-end and none is top-end. The windlight viewer has always been performing better than the older pre-WL versions in all of them. If you think it’s me, go reading comments on WL versions when it still was a beta or a RC viewer. People enjoyed the faster FPS! Sometimes it got worst but never got back to the normal viewer’s levels. Many, including me, choose to go for WL at that time as it actually performed better than the standard one. And now after setup was made easier it’s even better.
    Then, you uncheck the athmospheric shading in WL and it will be just like the older viewer, WL is actually turned off… Still keeping avatar impostors and other advantages against the old one, thus in the end performing better, in slow systems too. And now performance range is much wider than it was before, and more widely enjoyable.

    If you see lag, if you’re crashing and are ill inworld, don’t blame WL viewer. Do blame asset servers, database stability, and everything so reluctantly LL reports everyday on their infamous “hidden” page (well by it being hidden, I see quite a lot of ways to find it, don’t you agree? I could easily stumble on it and fall if I don’t pay attention :))…

    At least, if you want to complain, address the right things. This will make this blog and SL much more interesting.

  78. Ralf says:

    A lot of regions are down for hours, it would be nice if LL would post such informations…

  79. Bert Striker says:

    It’s bad that megaprims are gone, is there a chance that a future version has megaprims again?

  80. Bert Striker says:

    Btw. is it really true that megaprims create lag? My system is so slow that I have no chance to measure it :-).

  81. Ralf says:

    Ahhh… looks like the rest of the regions are up again, took a very long time to bring the regions back online, what exactly was the problem? I thought that takes only a few minutes to start a region?

  82. U. M. says:

    It is being the grid again. Things never working the ways they are to.
    and to the trolling U M i have changing my name so as to you can stop with the namecallings and baby behaviors.

    Fix the grid please. It is not working as it should be working again as usuals.

  83. Renee Faulds says:

    Seeing how the Linden Censors deleted my earlier post I will remind the Labs again that this is

    day 4 of week 7 of daily borked asset servers.

    Maybe you can patch the patch you installed Monday that was to correct the same thing that happened “again” last.

  84. Ralf says:

    I think it was not such a good idea to separate the grid status from the rest of the blog and of course the worst part is that the new grid status page has no comment function, this way I can’t ask questions about the status or read if other residents have problems too. I really hope that this will change in the very near future. At least the information about the rolling restart was not on the grid status page…

  85. Prospero Linden says:

    Re: regions taking a long time to come up: the changes we made to how we assign hosts to regions have been working well, but evidently during the rolling restart we hit some edge cases; we were left with several regions that just wouldn’t start. The number of regions that were affected by this was small (about 1%), but of course that’s little consolation if it’s your region that’s affected. We used what we saw today to figure out how to improve the process that does that assignment.

    (The old process was simple and mostly reliable; we replaced it because it created very heavy database load, and was a contributor to the central database becoming overloaded.)

  86. Ralf says:

    Prospero, thank you for the answer, btw. are the Openspace regions are part of the normal rolling restart or do you restart these regions separate?

  87. austin welles says:

    @77
    I must agree with Paula here. WL is much better then previous viewers and so much more pretty to look at, love the colors in SL. I have to say if I had as many problems as some of you folks seem to have I would have been long gone. Do i lag at busy places? Yes. Do I freeze at times? Yes. Has inventory gone missing? Yes, but 50% of the time I find it in a file i didn’t intend to put it in. Would i like my skirt parts to appear in the release candidate? Of course, but they have heard this over and over again. Yes Linden Labs needs to improve stability, but when they make moves in that direction people complain. When they move slow and cautious, people complain. I am not some lap dog for LL, but when i joined i never expected a Utopian glitch free, unchanging environment..I look forward to new items and more bug fixes. Yes I even like Dazzle. If something i like is borked by one fix i know in a week or two it will be fixed or they will try to fix. And no i have not invested all kinds of money thinking i am going to become rich, this is a fun and creative place to be. Or not–to be.

  88. I can say this is a bummer. Good thing I managed to make a few megaprims for my regions that shave a lot of prim consumption off.

    Megaprims are great, except when it comes to physics. If LL sees the potential in them, how about changing some limitations?

    I’d be happy with these options
    1. Gradually increasing prim size constraints over time as hardware and software improve, getting feedback as you go. This will root out and lag and rendering issues ad hoc.

    2. Allowing megaprims, but not allowing them to be set to physical (but solid to allow for walkways). This will bypass the physical lag on all regions.

    3. Allowing region owners to regulate how large of prims they will allow on their regions. This option will give the control to the sim owners who may have problems with megaprims, and allow creative projects to be built on some sims that are low cost to severs.

    Some good old mass T&A wouldn’t hurt, and a lot of of us would enjoy the freedom in building. ^^

  89. Rascal Ratelle says:

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7139

    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=257553

    View Poll Results: Who else would like to see a “low-tech” Viewer?
    Yes, Please! 82 81.19%
    No, I can keep up. 17 16.83%
    Undecided 2 1.98%
    Voters: 101

    The majority have voted in favour, LL are you listening?

    wich means the majority are STILL having the following issues:

    * Serious memory leaks.
    * Grid instability and poor performance
    * Teleports fail quite regularly, especially under heavy load
    * Sim performance varies wildly (NOT due to client content either)
    * Low FPS During heavy loads
    * Serious texture latency
    * World maps are very slow loading
    * Crashes and viewer hangs and freezes
    * Ongoing friends list presence issues (Still an issue)
    * Group chat totally borked (Still an issue)
    * Group Notices not getting to all members of a group
    * Random animations starting out of nowhere (and no, not an attack)(Intermittent)
    * Sailing off into void space after crossing a sim line
    * Did we mention crashes? Why yes, yes we did.

    as well the following Administrative issues need to be addressed and resolved n a satisfactory manner manor:

    * Major bugs not being corrected month after month, year after year (prime example: llTargetOmega)
    **Bots and bot farms.***
    * LL spending time on items no customers really want or care about.
    *** LL totally ignoring customer voting results and @#$# well doing what they want anyway (prime example: voice… which was majorly voted AGAINST by LL customers).***
    * Absurdist pricing on sims and land (namely: $295 and $350 a month for a piece of virtual land is ridiculous. The only thing it does is stuff LL’s pockets with $$$ and keeps most people for being able to afford a sim).
    * Total failure of LL to prevent minors from entering the grid, resulting in continual hassles with immature children (not that some of the “adults” are any more mature… it just adds to the problem and drama).*

    So,Why Continue to list these things? We’re not just griping. We’re listing these things to point out issues that Second Life customers deal with every single day… issues that Linden Lab continues to ignore (or put on the back burner, or “it bothers us too” into the obscurity pile) year after year.

    And then people wonder why there are constant gripes on the blog.

    That would be why.

  90. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    The thing with the skirts has been on going for months now. Every time it gets fixed, skirts do rez but only for like a day and then they’re gone. I really think SL should integrate some kind of program that constantly searches for bugs – not being a programmer, I’m not sure how difficult that would be, but it is a suggestion.

    I also think that Linden should ban bots altogether – bots and bot farms. These things are damn annoying and use up a lot memory unnecessarily. Either that, or allow those of us who have weapons to become licensed bot hunters so that we can kill any bot we see – especially those bots who hog up all the camping spots.

  91. Prospero Linden says:

    Ralf : openspace regions are done as part of the normal rolling restart.

    Rascal : I’m not going to address everything, but there are number of things you say that are repeated a lot and which aren’t strictly correct. For instance, it is often said that “nobody wants Voice,” but the fact is that about 1/3 of users use Voice. Voice opens up a *lot* of possibilities for the virtual world. You may not want them, and that’s fine; you don’t need to use them. But for many users, it’s crucial.

    That being said : we do take into account votes on JIRAs. But that’s not the only thing we take into account. Those at the Lab who figure out what it is that the residents want most use a number of ways of gathering information. We also use our own judgment. I have not been heavily involved in these decisions, so i can’t give you details, but I assure none were taken rashly, none were done “just because we felt like it.” And, those few things that most residents didn’t like (as opposed to things that _some_ residents really didn’t like) were done because of some other necessity.

    Jayme : the thing about bots is that there are creative and interesting uses of bots. To many, “bots” mean “camping farms of resource-using pseudoavatars that exist simply to pump traffic statistics.” But that’s not all that bots are used for in-world. In general, Linden has tended to avoid blanket bans of anything without a very good reason to do so. It’s very easy to see bad behavior and demand a sweeping response, but as with laws in the real world, the sweeping response may well have unintended negative consequences.

  92. Dytska Vieria says:

    Since the rolling restarts, it looks like the World Map has reverted to a very very old image of objects on the ground! At least one or two months ago, from what I can tell. But it may not be related to the server updates at all.

  93. Martin Magpie says:

    @91 Oh really and what affect exactly did Linden Lab think releasing a 20 sim city sim owned, built and put up for auction would have on the existing housing market run my your paying customers. Did Linden Lab think that flooding the market and angering it’s estate owners would be a good idea.

    Oh please spare me the lecture about how much Linden Lab cares. Over the years I have seen them do what was best to line the pockets of the company and very little for their customers.

    Mar/Cat

  94. les says:

    “the thing about bots is that there are creative and interesting uses of bots”

    Yeah, like pumping the numbers for a sale. You guys lurve your number games. 90% agree!

    Keep bots, remove traffic. Problem solved.

    There is NO NEED for traffic. If people require info on visits to their land there are many simple ways using LSL to find the numbers. Don’t even go on about traffic being needed for search results. (this is the part where you tell me that you are looking into new ideas to replace traffic. Should have something ready right after the sale of SL to some sucker)

    To allow traffic bot farms to continue while your DB, AS and just about everything else fails daily is a slap in the face.

    Keep up the good work!

  95. Andromeda Quonset says:

    It seems to me, that this patch to eliminate creating new megaprims, for the near term is going to have the opposite effect from what was intended, if it was intended to limit megaprim creation. Because of the patch, everyone who can, has been generating megaprims for future use. Now there is going to be this colosal set of megaprims getting distribuited in-world, and copied. I am a big believer in megaprims, at least while sims are limited to a mere 15,000 prims. Once someone finds a way for a sim to support a decent number of prims, say 250,000 prims, then maybe we are in the range where we can talk about eliminating megaprims 🙂

  96. Verdana Klaar says:

    @72 Rayy said : “because LL wanted us to see the glorious windlight crap as a standard viewer”

    Are you sure ? WL is not a requisite for using SL as far as i know. If you are not satisfied with this viewer, simply use other ones. There exist at least two of them – which are at no cost, just as WL is.

    The real problem is if some day LL make their viewer a mandatory component of SL (and hence proprietary).

    Now i agree with you that WL is not best-in-class. That is why i use an alternate viewer (but that’s only me, and off-topic as well).

  97. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    I was “on” for a little under four hours today and guess how many times i crashed? 15 times. And …. shock, horror …. i had a skirt rez for a total time of one minute and then – poof! – it was gone. Tell you what, Lindens – how about you get off your collective backsides and play SL yourselves like everyone else? That means you don’t use any special patches or scripts for your avatars – you experience SL just as everyone else does. Do that for a week and then come back to the blog and tell us that the bugs have been ironed out, there’s no issues. While you’re in SL go to the all the camp places where the bots tend to congregate and try and get a camp seat to earn money. Tell us then that bots are “good”. Track down the entire bingeshidai Aeon series of bots and tell us they are good. Until you can do the above, don’t come here spewing BS about how great Second Life is and how you understand what we – the lowly customer – are experiencing.

    I know this sounds nasty, but I am absolutely fed up with the crap you continually spew about how you have fixed this and fixed that yet the problems still remain.

  98. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    An add on to my last comment – I challenge you to do what I said. Double dare you.

  99. Ewan Mureaux says:

    @ 91 Prospero

    This is the very reason that people need to be involved in ther future of traffic. Bots are great from some perspectives, remembering different people have fun different ways with sl, some like progrqamming and making bots. But what we need to do is have a collective voice that says “lets remove the reasons that make people want to game the system”, that is make people aware that traffic is not iniques visitors, many people who have been in-world a lot longer than me still don’t know this. Also would be interesting to look at the following questions.

    1) Are people paying the $10 fee for every avatar after their first one.

    2) What load on the asset server do all of these drones cause? If removing excess group messages is a step in the right direction then surely the storage of thousands of zombie avatars profiles is having a major effect.

    3) Would Linden Lab in fact prefer to have a high “online now” figure over a lower number of just active residents?

    I understand if you don’t answer. Just food for thought though.

    http://ewanmureaux.wordpress.com/

  100. Tegg B says:

    We need a solid answer on bots, because at the moment we have people cheating traffic because they can, others who cheat because they have to survive and those trying to survive without cheating.
    IBots are the future of traffic thenevery store on the grid can run 20-100 and see how that helps the economy and the grids health.

  101. Verdana Klaar says:

    @97 Jayme said: “I was “on” for a little under four hours today and guess how many times i crashed? 15 times. And …. shock, horror …. i had a skirt rez for a total time of one minute and then – poof! – it was gone.”

    Cut and paste:

    I was “on” for a little under three hours yesterday and guess how many times i crashed? 0 times. And …. shock, horror …. i had a (prim) skirt rez for a total time of three hours and then – poof! – it was time for dinner.

    Also during this whole time, i was building (using some large prims btw) and you know what ? Everything rezzed correctly, duplication of prims (ctl-D) was fast and linking them together worked as well. I’m definitely not normal 😦

    Of course it happens i crash as anyone (i.e.: almost every day) – rather freeze all the PC than crash, in fact. Upon reboot i do have at time a message indicating i got a severe error, and you know what ? When i send the error report, 2 times out of 3 that is because of my graphic card drivers (which i do not update, coz i’m not a PC guru).

    All this i can stand easily, knowing that i’m in SL for sake of fun mainly.

    What is a bit more concerning it that : no LL is not listening to their users (it’s been years we say please stop adding new gadgets and focus on reliability), and no their product development process is not mature.

  102. Rayy Giles says:

    @96 Yes i have different viewers but you seem to have missed my point about all the updates that started from the WL viewer. LL has eaten up so much time and resources to make WL as a standard viewer and from then on has been patching and patching to keep it in place. Should of never been done. Please LL give us all a roll back before WL and fix the bugs that should of been fixed instead of messing with WL’s problems thats started all of this. LL should clean out old profiles and inventory from freebie accounts that have not logged in, in the last 6 months. Freebie accounts again as i’ve said should have a limited inventory. Some of my friends have freebie accounts thats been in SL for only a yr and they have more inventory then i do and im a business owner, land owner and creator thats been in SL for 2 1/2 yrs. Yes i’ve lost all my inventory before with no compensation from LL. Just dont seem right that paying customers have to worry about inventory lose because LL is trying to keep non paying customers happy. LL please stop with all the stuff about viewers, textures and all that, have you played WoW. There is alot of colors, textures and inventory that paying customers carry around with them at all times. WoW sure dont have the problems SL has. WoW even has more residents online at the same time. LL just update your hardware that we as a community pay for!!!!

  103. Ralf says:

    In a few week LL removes the popular places tab, so this should be an answer to camping/bots because then there is no reason to pump traffic anymore so to talk about this is like beating a dead horse… I’m much more interested (a) in the plans of LL to create a more stable Grid and (b) what are the plans of LL to protect the businesses in SL against content theft, which is now a very serious problem, a lot of stores in SL suffer because someone stole their content and sells everything for a few Linden Dollars with full perm (I saw it by myself). In my eyes the content theft is one of the biggest problem followed by the problem to create a more stable grid and the problem with the lag/texture loading… I think Prospero is right even when you create a much bigger cache there is always something missing, everyone creates textures and then you have to load this stuff again, maybe a better cache strategy would help to reduce the lag?

  104. Pepper Haas says:

    Bug fix announcement I would love to see:

    Rollback to 15.1 starts tomorrow; we deeply apologize for our grave mistake breaking normal communications and borking up group IM and totally destroying the functionality of communications GUI, in order to shove Voice down y’alls throat. We have fired whoever went against the clearly stated wishes of the membership NOT to have Voice. Again, we deeply apologize for this seriously bad idea that broke normal communications and lagged everything to all hell.

  105. Verdana Klaar says:

    Rayy (102) ; Yes, from that perspective i can agree with you.

    You say : “LL has eaten up so much time and resources to make WL as a standard viewer and from then on has been patching and patching to keep it in place. Should of never been done. Please LL give us all a roll back before WL and fix the bugs that should of been fixed instead of messing with WL’s problems”.

    This, am in full agreement, and if you read the conclusion – last paragraph – of my comment #101, well, i think it is just all the same as what you mention.

    The only point is LL cannot as of today “rollback” to six months or one year ago, as very likely (i guess i’m not wrong) the entire system is now “spagheti-ware”, and a big brick and mortar cake.

    Now (at the attention of professional whiners), we must not put the burden onto developers, or ops or whoever on the the field, but on the management that support/encourages a so-called “tao” never seen no longer in any serious company since Steve Jobs has been producing the Apple-II (that is when i was not yet born…).

    LL management have what they deserve: an overall system totally beyond any possible control. That is precisely the “great divide” they have not taken in account: growing from innovative process mode up to 2004/2005 to a mature, controlled and disciplined product management practice right afterward. And bad luck for them, it is now too late.

    Anyway… SL is still fun most of the time 🙂

  106. Rayy Giles says:

    @105 There is nothing wrong with voice, every gamer uses it, we all have it with our messengers. When LL first added voice they had it running on the same servers as the sims. Real Newbie mistake because LL didnt want to buy more servers for voice. They final saw what was another mistake and moved voice to separate servers. Pepper if your lagging because of voice, then maybe you should update your sound drivers or get another sound card and if you dont like voice then just turn it off, Thats doesnt put a drain on your system at all so if your crashing look at your viewer and not voice. One of these days LL will make the big decission to solve alot of problems. Get rid of the bots, old freebie accounts, inventory limits to freebie accounts, this would help assest servers alot, then get rid of WL viewer until its totally fixed and update hardware. I like SL very much but it doesnt seem LL is going to make those decissions because its all a numbers game to them. Residents online numbers that really are very low compared to other big online games that dont have these problems because said companies spent the $$$ needed on hardware to handle the load of online users. For LL to be pushed in that directions, maybe all of us should switch to freebie accounts since LL pays more attention to them then they do paying customers!! As they say “if you want to hurt a company so they listen, hit them in the pocket book.” because server failure and the pleading from paying customers for stability in SL sure hasnt got LL’s attention!!!!!

  107. Ewan Mureaux says:

    @104 Ralf.

    You answered your own question – losing popular places and the army of bots who keep them where they are will lead to greater grid stability. Less load = more stable.

    As for content protection theres a thing caled a DMCA, its the proper legal procedure that LL have to abide by. Like it or not thats the rules, and its not their rules. Hopefuly though as good residents we can bring possible theft to the creators attention and become a real self-policing community.

    As Gary the No-Trash Cougar says, “Give a larbage; Throw out your garbage.”

  108. Argent Stonecutter says:

    You could even keep traffic, but only make it visible when you’re actually in the parcel. So you could use it as a parcel owner, but it wouldn’t be worth advertising.

  109. Zi Ree says:

    @107 Rayy Giles: Voice was never part of the Linden Network. It was on Vivox Servers right from the start.

  110. Ralf says:

    @108 Sorry Ewan but that’s simply Bull*, the “real self-policing community” doesn’t work… I guess you are very young (in RL and SL) and so it’s excusable that you write stuff like this. And for the less load = more stable… hey than LL can just limit the logins to say 20.000 (after they replaced popular placed) and than the grid must be uberstable.. sometime I’m shocked how naive people can be…

    @109 Yep, as far as I can understand that’s exactly LL plans… at least when I read the last transcript correct :-).

  111. Ralf says:

    @110 Yep, and it’s funny to see that the people always blame the sim server when they have problems with the voice function :-), most of the time the ‘voice problem’ sits right in front of the monitor ;-).

  112. Jayme: How about you pay attention for a moment?

    Guess what? Not every user experiences some severe issues while running Second Life – and some of us are running two or more year old computers with graphics cards and CPUs that are NOT on Linden Lab’s list of properly supported hardware.

    Cut the BS. Make sure all of your software is up to date, check all of your settings (not some cursory glance – an hour long or more tweaking) and if all else fails …. either update your system (good hardware is NOT expensive) or quit Second Life.

    To everyone else looking to try and pin all of their woes on any single aspect of Second Life’s programming thus far or on a single project … Who died and made any of you God? Not a single user has the information to know what is being worked on. All we have are these Blog posts.

    Christ – get over yourselves.

  113. Wynochee LeShelle says:

    I agree with Jayme. Bots have to moved out completely and effective. Even a single greeter bot is stupid enough. This thing is made for people and interactions between people. It is not made from bots for bots, but from people for people. Bots are totaly useless. Even landbots. Or do we know any landbot in RL who would buy land for us? Or anything. The whole grid is now bot-farmed and ad-farmed, is laggy, looks ugly. Quality wins ever. If one creates perfect items like much great creators do, then there is no need for any tricks, to have success. I could name much perfect designers wich are using no tricks, no bots, no ad farms. They are just there and because of qualitiy their biz or sightseeing attraction is running well. I see no negative consequences by removing the bot avas strictand also the 16sqm ad-farms. Since new we are allowed to AR the ad-farms, but some people who did that, has getting no response, the farms are still there, but they get revenge actions by the ad-farmers…So, these are reasons why we ask: for what do we pay here? To support the technical mess, the bots and the ad-farms? We cannot remove them by ourselfs, so the company has to hold the grid clean for us. That’s my point of view.

  114. Rascal Ratelle says:

    @91, I NEVER said ALL , please read: *** LL totally ignoring customer voting results and @#$# well doing what they want anyway (prime example: voice… which was MAJORITY voted AGAINST by LL customers).***

    Majority meaning MOST not ALL.

    Also LL often does what it feels is best for them, like that age verification crap.
    it doesn’t work.

    LL ignored most of the concerns and protests raised against it’s use.

    most of my questions and concerns were not addressed.

    no garuntees have been made as to the safety and security of Aristotle Integrity, the third party chosen by LL board of directors.

    if these issues are being repeated alot it’s because LL is not listening nor is any one interested in addressing them.

    these are legitimate issues that LL needs to address and not down play.

    i believe you when you say LL cares for it’s costumer, but with most corporations, LL cares more about it self, its public image and it’s public reputation.

  115. Jamma Newt says:

    @ 91 Prospero Linden “In general, Linden has tended to avoid blanket bans of anything without a very good reason to do so. It’s very easy to see bad behavior and demand a sweeping response, but as with laws in the real world, the sweeping response may well have unintended negative consequences.”

    See, the problem I see is that there are “creative and interesting uses” of megaprims as well, as all of you at Linden Lab are quite aware. The silence (or worse, the many conflicting statements) on the part of various Linden Lab employees has done nothing to ease the fever-pitched megaprim production levels of the last few days. We’ve lived with plenty of freely available megaprims for almost two years, most of that time under Havok 1, and the grid doesn’t seem to have collapsed into itself. There’s some griefing and un-neighborly acts done with them, but for the most part the very limited number of megaprims we’ve had available have greatly enhanced many “creative and interesting” projects. I can’t wait to see what explosion of creativity emerges from this new wave of megaprim dimensions over the coming weeks and months.

    If you want to talk about asset server stability, take a moment to imagine what a load it’s going to be to have people start passing around folders containing hundreds, if not thousands, of megaprims, all of which were rezzed in this state of panic we’re inflamed with as the last minutes tick away before the last server gap is closed. Normal inventories of two-, three-, even ten-thousand items are now going to explode with additional thousands as multiple copies of multiple sets of megaprims are collected and duplicated. Talk about your “unintended negative consequences.”

    If we had an easier way to create and edit prims larger than 10m, even if it were capped at some arbitrary dimension of 20m, 64m, or 100m, there wouldn’t be this frantic hoarding of megaprims and people would simply rez what they need, when they need it. If we had an official statement of future support and a timeframe (one that we’d hold you to mercilessly, of course!) for an increase in maximum editable prim size, many people would back away from the coming tsunami of megaprim packs and simply be content to wait for the officially sanctioned easement of restrictions so that they could use prims listing themself as creator, not some random stranger they’ve never met.

    Bots were not created by Linden Lab, they were an outside innovation yet in the end they were allowed to continue because of their “creative and interesting uses” despite the negative responses by many residents. Neither was the production of megaprims a Linden Lab initiative, but now that Havok 4 has been successfully deployed (at least with regard to megaprim behavior) and we’ve had almost two years to see what impact megaprims have inworld, don’t you (“you” plural, each and every Linden) think it’s time to either liberate megaprims, or failing that, give us your “very good good reason” not to do so?

  116. Prospero Linden says:

    Some have mentioned this already, but regarding doing something about traffic, I will point you here : http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/

  117. Prospero Linden says:

    Re: megaprims. I am not in a position to comment on that at this time. Watch this blog for further information about megaprims. I would point out, however, that we **are** at the moment allowing continued use of the megaprims that were created years ago as a result of a bug in the server and an exploit. As for discussion and reasons for the rest, as I said, I’m not in a position to speak for the Lab on that, but we should hear in the blog sometime in the next few days about that issue. For the time being, I would point to this, which was our last statement on the issue, and which points out some of the complexities of the issue:

    http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/12/the-big-prim-problem/

  118. Rayy Giles says:

    @109 your so wrong that LL had them on vivox, LL had a post about they were moving voice to vivox about 5 or 6 months ago because they were on the sim servers

  119. Ewan Mureaux says:

    @ 110 not so young or naive to realise that no matter how much you huff and puff there is only one standard legal way to procede with claims regarding copyright. All other residents can do is inform the original content creator and then let them procede with the prescribed method.

    It is down to the community. We have to do three things. If it is our copyrighted material we should follow the law, file a DMCA. Secondly if it is recognsably someone elsees you should inform the original creator without having to point fingers, send them a snapshot let them investigate and if it is stolen they can file a DMCA. Thirdly if you see something obviously stolen, worryingly cheaper than you think it should be or if anything about the product or place doesnt sit right with you…… don’t shop there. If it’s a known creator shop at their main store. Thats all we can do. That’s all LL can do.

  120. Prospero Linden says:

    Rayy — you are incorrect. Second Life Voice has been in partnership with Vivox since the beginning.

  121. Zi Ree says:

    @118 Rayy Giles: I’d love to see this posting, because I would hate to spread incorrect facts.

  122. Winter Ventura says:

    /me closes the lid on the box.

    Well that was fun, really, but I was getting a little crazy from all the rezzing. I think I hit my OWN “grey goo fence”.. because my brain has turned to grey goo from editing 16 to 17 to 18 to 19 to 20 to 21…

    It was a fun couple of days though. I can’t wait to see what this looks like when we all lump our sets together.

  123. Jamma Newt says:

    @117 Prospero Linden Says: “For the time being, I would point to this, which was our last statement on the issue, and which points out some of the complexities of the issue: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/12/the-big-prim-problem/

    Thank you for at least acknowledging the question even if you are not in a position to answer it, and for the tantalizing promise of an upcoming statement on this blog. The entry you refer to, however, does not exactly contain /any/ statement by Lindens regarding megaprim policies unless you count Cory Linden’s comment at a Town Hall from December of 2006 “I think the policy is to return them if a nuisance … oh, a follow up on megaprims: we are going to allow them on private estates as well.” Hmmmm, still waiting on that one….

    Prospero Linden Says: “I would point out, however, that we **are** at the moment allowing continued use of the megaprims that were created years ago…”

    Ummmm, I know you may think it goes without saying, but could you clarify this statement a bit to include all those /new/ megaprims we’ve been pumping out the last few days?

    Thanks again for responding, even if it only makes things all that more maddeningly opaque for us.

  124. Bounder says:

    On voting in jira issues …. I’ve noticed that it is a very small group of people that vote compared to the people in the world and this small group of people seem to think that LL needs to listen to them. It also seems that people go campaigning to get all their friends to vote on an issue to drive up votes and its not even possible to vote NO on these issues which I assure you, I would have voted NO on a number of issues that have “high” (50-100) votes.

  125. Verdana Klaar says:

    Prospero #117: “megaprims […/…] that we **are** at the moment allowing continued use of the megaprims that were created years ago as a result of a bug in the server and an exploit.”

    This very brief “tell-tale heart” from Prospero says it all about how all is managed in a product management perspective… (/me smiles gently).

    But yes please, i would be very kind of LL to keep them now (“after years”, quote) on since a number of residents find them useful.

    Now, the new topic of the day is “Mono” (????). That one is for gurus, and “imppressed” persons.

    In the end, LL is not so bad at avoiding replying to their users on the big picture… in some way.

    Please stop take us for dummies. Your communication process (if any, or is it random?), is as much short-term living as the way you manage and maintain your product (or try to, rather)

  126. sloopy cooder says:

    Just curious… Why isn’t the status of the rolling restart on the grid status page? Why here? Now on the SL login page, there is no notice that a rolling restart is in progress, since it no longer shows BLOG posts.

    Guys? Please get consistent. Furthermore, when a post is “updated” it needs to move back up to the top – maybe as a new post. RSS feeds don’t get “updates” in your implementation.

    LL seems to be getting just a LITTLE bit better with communication, but could do a LOT more. Speak up on policy issues / resident concerns more, and let us know what is going on when problems arise.

  127. Pingback: Rolling Restart for Half of the Grid, Friday Morning 2008-05-16 « Official Second Life Blog

  128. Rayy Giles says:

    @ 120 partnership yes but LL had it on server grid, i remember posting and laughing at the newbie mistake from LL’s blog.

  129. Greho Otaared says:

    Yes, the ability to use megaprims of some size would be fantastic. It would open more building opportunities for me than sculpties have.

    I get the fact that megaprims cause draw-distance problems. Perhaps those problems are compounded by the fact that so many of the 1st gen megaprims are cutaways, and not whole prims. I know they play havoc (no pun intended) with my camera view. Maybe us private sim owners could get first shot at 2nd gen megaprims, those being whole prims, since they’re not in view of eight neighboring sims, as they are on the mainland?

    I know of four or five builds on my island that could have their prim counts cut by -one third or more- today, if I could make larger prims easily.

    Surely this would ease strain on the asset server and on the client, as you’re only rendering a texture on, say one 30 x 20 x 1 prim, instead of on SIX 10 x 10 x 1 prims. Yes? No?

  130. Darien Caldwell says:

    Now that the restart is done, can you please update us on exactly what was fixed, Prospero? Inquiring minds want to know! 🙂

  131. tensaihilra says:

    yea, you can’t make megaprims via the recently leaked exploit.. thats whats fixed

  132. Your Conscience says:

    @117 & 123
    I have to agree. Unfortunately, I get a sinking feeling of dread at the mention of the upcoming blog concerning the “issue” (read: problem of people having a widely expanded range of megaprims to use). I’ve created many, many things with the new megaprims I could never have created with the old ones, because most of the old ones are “fake” sizes, prims cut and tortured into the proportions listed in their names. Is all of that work, and the work that I fully suspect that all of these frenzied residents such as myself have done, going to be destroyed? I can’t help but stop and ponder at the well-spoken case presented by #115. You promise these things for megaprims in the future, but when? They’re right, the massive lunge for as many possible combinations of megas as we can get should be an indicator. Please don’t rip away from our fingers our now larger (pun intended) opportunity for content creation, to creation things feasibly on a scale that actually has _meaning_ for the avatar, not something we have to duck under, and not something that is too awkwardly proportioned to be aesthetically or practically functional, or too cookie-cutter similar to anything else that uses the exact same limited number of megaprim sizes. I mean think. People are actually _less_ likely to overrun borders if they are able to create custom prims over the 10m limit, than they would if they only have a range of megas with are _mostly_ over the average lot size (512-1024). Please, don’t let this upcoming blog post be a “Sorry, but the new megas have to go. Be happy with the old ones.” Especially if you _honestly_ and _truly_ plan to support megas in the future, don’t destroy everything that we have worked on and created in our short time of freedom.

  133. Your Conscience says:

    @130 Darien
    I would find it extremely, depressingly, funny, if the only thing, or the only main thing, fixed in this update, was the ability to create megaprims.

  134. Sierra says:

    I’m still wondering why megaprims are so evil now. It takes more bandwidth and processing to send prim updates to the client for lots of wasted 10m prims where a megaprim is more suitable. The client also has an increased rendering load of some of the smaller megaprims as well (10-100 in my tests). Prim overlap is a simple issue, all it takes is simple math to figure out of a prim is overlapping into another parcel not matter what shape the parcel is. I’ll even write you one in the language of your choice.
    With Havok4, larger scale prims are able to be used effectively and I have statistics to prove it (Unless the statistics from the client and estate tools are incorrect). As long as you’re not silly and put thousands of megaprims of a large size (100>) which react to physics then it’s fine under the current physics engine.
    People say megaprims enable terrorism, we’ve had megaprims of massive size (256> I’ve seen one that go for infinite or 1024x1024x1024) for a while now and it hasn’t been an “End Of The World”. If it’s such an issue, then let sim owners have an option to toggle the creation and existence of megaprims in their sims and be done with it (Mainland? No idea how that might work).

    This security fix is simply raping residents via prim limits and you know it, and if there is a legitimate excuse then let’s hear because I’m tired of this argument.
    I want to like you Linden Labs but you’re not giving me any reason too are you?

  135. Sierra says:

    Correction: The client also has an decreased rendering load of some of the smaller megaprims as well (10-100 in my tests) compared to using lots of 10m to achieve the same thing.

  136. Disappointed Oldbie says:

    Update please; on what the security problem was exactly.

  137. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    @112
    Universal Infinity – my computer is in the two to three year-old bracket and is a custom-designed computer originally used for burning CD’s and DVD’s. As to updating? Do you think that everyone has the hundreds of dollars it costs to update every six weeks according to Linden Labs requirements? Well, I’m certainly glad you have that sort of cash lying around after you’ve paid you’re bills, insurance and groceries, because I certainly don’t. So Second Life is now – according to your statement – only for those who can afford to upgrade so everyone else should just get stuffed? What an arrogant attitude that is. The entire issue of stability has been going around for ages and it is something that Linden Labs has not %100 addressed. The same with the Skirt issue. It gets fixed for a day and then it’s gone again. So what’s going to be you’re next attack?

  138. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Oh, I should also let you know, Universal infinity, that I do check my specs on a regular basis – and it isn’t just a percursory glance either. And everytime I crash, I clear both caches. So therefore, it is SecondLife, not me.

  139. Disappointed Oldbie says:

    Blaming the customer is probably not the best way to go. Unless SL can run on the same machines that have no problem running something like WoW it will never have a chance at hitting the huge audience it aspires to. Unless that target audience is just Apple, IBM, and the like; not the average computer owner. If LL needs to gear down the specs a bit to accommodate the average user; then they should. I no longer choose to use my best computer for sl as I also crash too often.

  140. Sierra says:

    The “security” fix was megaprim creation, they removed it again.

  141. AWM Mars says:

    From my webhosting issues of recent, it would appear that ssh has been introduced for all ftp operations. Setting up a sftp tunnel is as best a pain, I have had to abandon my Dreaweaver MX software as it’s idea of sorting out the issue, is to use some overly complicated 3rd party software.
    This action is to perhaps slow down/prevent to spread exploits.

  142. Jayme: Do yourself a favor and cease jumping to conclusions. This machine has only had software updates for the past few years. It has not needed any hardware updates.

    As to your assertion of spending hundreds of dollars …. Kindly do your research. You’re talking about going out and getting top of the line components each and every time you have an issue. I am not.

    One update is all you need if you do it right.

    Clearing both caches? Guess what Dearie …. that does nothing at all to fix any possible hardware issues.

    In the future, try to read what is actually being said: Not what you want to see.

  143. Prospero Linden says:

    What was changed in the 1.21.1.87495 update:

    + We closed the hole that allowed the creation of new megaprims **
    + We closed a hole that allowed people with a custom viewer to ignore estate bans and TP into regions from which they were supposed to be banned.
    + We fixed an exploit whereby particularly constructed IMs would always be waiting for you every time you logged on.
    + We inserted some code to test some “garbage collection” code that will be used to reduce the rate at which space is filled up on the asset server.

    ** Yes, yes, yes, I know that this move is considered an awful thing by many, and I know that many of you are wondering why I was so cagy about whether or not megaprims were going to be disabled with this release even as other people were confirming that it was the case. The reason I didn’t state this in the top blog post is because we wanted to avoid too much of a rush of “ZOMG must create megaprims while we can!” While you may object that the comment thread indicated that was happening *anyway*, fewer people read the comment thread than read main blog posts. The goal was to minimize the damage….

    Regarding the megaprim issue in general, I cannot comment beyond saying that the old megaprims are still _currently_ supported. (And while, no, we haven’t deleted new megaprims created with this latest hole, I am not sure I can promise that we won’t. This isn’t a threat, it’s just a statement that I don’t know.) There will be more information about megaprims as we figure it out, but as noted before it’s a complicated issue, and we haven’t worked through all of the performance and code support issues (not to mention social issues like parcel encroachment) internally within the lab. In the mean time, we don’t want to have megaprims created willy-nilly until (a) we figure out what a real policy is, and (b) have code support in place to fully deal with them. Hence our ongoing silence on the matter, and hence our desire to quickly close the unintentional hole that allowed their creation.

  144. Your Conscience says:

    Well first, I will thank you for the response Prospero. I do have some things to say, however.

    “There will be more information about megaprims as we figure it out, but as noted before it’s a complicated issue, and we haven’t worked through all of the performance and code support issues…”

    LL may have not, but with all due respect, the residents have. As Sierra mentioned in 134&135, the megaprims are actually easier on the grid than many many smaller prims, and people have already successfully used them to great effect. I’m even happy to show you my personal OpenSpace sim which I rent with another resident, and show you what I’ve created if you like. There have been no issues for myself, or for anyone who I’ve brought to visit, or anyone who saw it when I was working on it in a public sandbox, or my neighbors when I was in a residential sim on a smaller plot.

    “(not to mention social issues like parcel encroachment)”
    Again, Sierra even offered to write one for you. I know that your fixes include an ability to return overlapping megaprims, but that can wait. If a resident has a problem with a neighbor’s megaprim, they can contact the neighbor, and failing that, contact their friendly neighborhood estate manager, or failing even that, file an abuse report. I had megaprims that overlapped into my neighbor’s land, but I asked their permission and they were all fine with it, and I would have removed them if they weren’t. They even thought my build was “really cool”. I can wait for “code support” like being able to change their size, just like I waited for code support for glow. What I don’t want is my personal library of prims, and resultant builds, to vanish into thin air. The megaprims we have now are far superior to the old ones, because they aren’t just “cut and tortured” to be the sizes they say they are, which make up about 90% of the original collection. Furthermore, I was able to make much more useful shapes, like sizes for toruses and not just spheres and blocks, which need the X and Z vertices reversed.

    “(a) we figure out what a real policy is”

    Why is it so hard to figure out a policy for megaprims? Haven’t you had enough time? People are biting at the bit, and if they are willing to go to such lengths just to try and expand their builds, why not let them be the deciders? Griefers? I rarely see greifers anymore at my regular haunts, and if there are griefers they can be dealt with the old-fashioned way like always until you put in place attachment limitations and whatnot. H4 _IS_ the code support for megas we’ve been waiting for. The rest is secondary and can come later. Instead of taking away what we have, just work on the megaprim stuff now instead of putting it off, and let us enjoy what we have until you allow megaprim creation.

    Btw, please don’t make megas estate-manager/owner only. There are far many more creative residents who are not able to have such priviledges due to inability to afford a sim of their own, and I was one of them not so long ago.

    Bottom Line: I’m happy to wait for LL “megaprim support” IF they allow us to keep these far superior prims that we have created. It makes no sense to force us to recreate content we have worked for hard, if you plan to support it again in the future, unless you honestly plan on putting it off till kingdom come and you don’t really think the “issue” will be addressed till a long time ahead.

  145. Fix the USEFUL bugs right away. Good policy.

  146. Tasrill Sieyes says:

    Well i guess for Microsoft’s ‘it’s not at bug it’s a feature’ we need someone on the other side to go “It’s not a feature it’s a bug’. But then again linden lab also says “Bots are not a bug they are a resident created feature”. Kind of like…. the new mega prims. But well #144 already said what I would want to better then I could.

  147. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Universal infinity – are you this nasty and arrogant in real life or just here? I do not – and should not – need to update any of my hardware or software. Obviously you missed when i said this computer was custom built. I will make an amendment to that – custom built by a computer expert with all of the best software and hardware available at the time.

    Furthermore – as others have said elsewhere, Secondlife is a service and as such Linden Labs are a service provider. Therefore LL have the responsibility to provide their clients – paying or not – with a stable service regardless of the software or hardware an individual client is using. Currently, Linden Labs are just doing whatever the heck they want when they want and are saying big screw you to their clients. How would you like it if your ISP suddenly went from consistent to being inconsistent and still charged you? You’d be p-ed and would complain also. So stop telling us what we can and cannot do. Who made you God?

  148. I am being blunt and quite frankly Jayme, I reserve my kinder and far more polite nature for those that actually deserve it. The bulk of those complaining here do not and quite frankly will not ever get a polite comment or response from me so long as they continue to be as obtuse as you’re being.

    I do not care who built your computer: apparently something you did recently or perhaps even something in your most recent updates to your drivers caused your rendering issues. The ‘best’ hardware and software are not always the best.

    Until you’re actually working for Linden Lab you will have no access to what they are actually working on – just like I have no access either.

    Incidentally, I am running the same graphics card as another Second Life user and someone who – thankfully – seems to find you not worth the time to respond to. I am running an ATI Radeon X1300. No problems rendering anything at all here.

    Oh yes …. I used to use AOL quite a bit. guess what? They truly do not care what their users want, and people still use the service – myself included. Kindly do not tell me what an ISP should be. This is not a perfect world.

  149. Tobias Novi says:

    The only thing that worked correctly and has nothing brought than happiness all over the grid , to finally be able to create things like cylinders < 10m , shapes for bigger Torus , mega prims on which you can rez without problems , the dream roof with 12m that is finally bigger than the house , prims that technical LOWER the lag because there have to been drawn less polygons is being “fixed” in a few days , while the real problems come and go daily …

    The goal was to minimize the damage….

    You guys really don’t get a clue yet what causes the damage to Second Life and your future job , don’t you ?
    You even blame your own residents to do bad things if they do what your grid is actually supposed to do , create , build , creativity ..
    You think people don’t read the comments … oh , believe they do !
    You play around with the money of all of us who spend oodles of $ each month as if it would be nothing on worth …
    You should finally hear to the people that pay you the money with which you pay *your* monthly bills , buy food for your children and enable you to have a good job compared to many many others in the real world !
    It’s is YOU who caused the damage …. not we !!!
    And its time to consider about to let you alone on your grid , with all the things what your residents really don’t want … have fun with your 20000 bots , millions of 16 sqm plots , the new continent on that are already more ad spots than parcels sold ..

    “There will be more information about megaprims as we figure it out, but as noted before it’s a complicated issue, and we haven’t worked through all of the performance and code support issues (not to mention social issues like parcel encroachment) internally within the lab.”

    And just you have confirmed again that you don’t care about what you bill payers want at all !
    Since megaprims (if not prims) are known in SL , people want to be able to do bigger ons … how many years is that again ?
    I could bet you didn’t even considered all those years to allow them , because your business is to gather the tier … oh how was that again , you need more land to have more prims …
    But “voice enabled ” and “fake light ” does sound so much better in the headlines than “people have fun again to build in SL ” , doesn’t it ?

  150. Seeker Yuequi says:

    Thanks Toby… Now I know this is the place where this thread will cease to be useful… or even reasonable.

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