Working on the Right Things (Considering OS X “Panther” Support)

As part of our ongoing effort to provide you with the highest quality Second Life experience possible, part of our process is to ask ourselves, periodically, if we’re working on the right things. 

Today we’d like to let you know we’re seriously considering whether Linden Lab should continue supporting Mac OS X 10.3, “Panther.” Our tracking shows that very few of you, about 1/4 of 1 percent of all of you, the entire base of Residents, are still using Apple’s Mac OS X 10.3 when logging into Second Life.  

We’d like to let the Linden engineers stop working on supporting an operating system released in 2003, and instead move on to other work which will benefit a much larger group of Residents

If we do stop supporting that version of the OS, it would not be until 60 days from now, to make sure there is plenty of time for the news to spread.

To briefly review the last five years of Mac OS: Panther, OS 10.3, was first released in October 2003, and updated to 10.3.9 in 2005. Apple has followed Panther with two more recent versions of the Apple OS, “Tiger” (OS 10.4,) released in April 2005 and “Leopard,” (OS 10.5,) released in October 2007 and updated Feb. 2008.

What would it mean to “stop support”? Eventually we would stop developing for the SDK (software development kit ) of that operating system, and we would also stop doing QA testing on OS 10.3.9. 

What would you notice? If you are one of the few logging in with that OS, you would still be able to do so the day we stop supporting it — for some time. Exactly how long we couldn’t guarantee, because we would no longer be testing and developing to make sure it does work.  

So, Oh Residents, what say you? 

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Community, Customer Service, Development, Resident Experience. Bookmark the permalink.

149 Responses to Working on the Right Things (Considering OS X “Panther” Support)

  1. Kraelen Redgrave says:

    Does this mean Windows XP is in line for the next swing of the metaphoric axe? How many of us Windows XP users are there still out there?

    And yes you should stop support for it. I don’t see how 0.25% really needs supporting now. Put the people to better use for the other 99.75% of us.

  2. topmate says:

    Ah, the sound of passing the buck, its hard to miss.

    Doubtless there will be others more eloquent than me who will point out what this post is saying, as they point out that the emperor has no clothes.

  3. Miles Beck says:

    As a Mac user who upgraded from Panther long ago, this change wouldn’t affect me. There are a lot of other companies who no longer support Panther, and LL should probably focus its resources on more recent versions of OSX.

    Katt, thanks for posting this. For those who might be affected, it’s good to know things like this ahead of time.

  4. Wolf Zapedzki says:

    LL certainly would not be the first company to stop officially supporting Panther. In fact, I’m kind of surprised support for it has gone on this long, really. I’m all for committing a few more resources to helping the whole. Axe it.

    Good move posting this blog, though, so kudos for that. Much more customer-friendly than just suddenly shoving it in a future build note. =)

  5. I think it’s a balance to support the old and the new, and asking companies developing leading edge software to support old OSes forever is a tough call. Unfortunately any 3d world/game/software is going to require fairly current hardware/software as it evolves.

    My own personal view is, supporting Panther’s not a great use of resources, but ***I do not presume to speak for others, nor do i wish to silence anyone*** (had to say that for the labelers).

  6. PrettyFlower says:

    A good move! Stop wasting effort on ancient systems hardly anyone uses and spend the energy on important issues.

  7. Alan Cyr says:

    Yup, time to move on. Especially if this gives the ability to rework some of the graphics code to make it faster/better…

  8. Aww does this mean that my 1997 G3 iMac, which unfortunately cannot run anything beyond Panther, won’t be able to run SL any more? Awwwwwwww.

    I rather enjoyed the 0.3 FPS on the ooooooold iMac and be able to tell that it was all my fault 🙂

    Seriously, this is a very good move! There is no reason to support such way-old OS, which is very likely running on way-old hardware anyway. And, for the record, my “old” 2003 PowerBook G4, which originally ran Panther (of course), is perfectly able to run Second Life on Leopard and get some good 12-15 FPS out of it on average, as it always did, since 2004!

  9. la le lu says:

    MAP ISSUES, TELEPORT ISSUES, STATUS PAGE WITH NO ENTRIES,
    MAYBE MORE DATABASE ISSUES.

  10. Jessica Hultcrantz says:

    It could be interesting with a bargraph on OS usage, specified by supported versions, just like there once was a good one made on GPU’s and their framerate.

  11. Quine Mondrian says:

    Sounds reasonable to me. Are there Tiger- or Leopard-specific technologies that you could then use to improve the Mac client?

  12. Parvati Luna says:

    If it means giving yourself more time and energy to make the client better for Tiger and Leopard users, by all means go for it!

  13. Jani Myriam says:

    My vote is for LL to stop officially supporting old OS versions like Panther but supporting those who want to keep the software alive on their older platforms. It’s easy in developed nations to forget those on the far end of the adoption curve. SL for the OLPC XO, no matter how lame, would be a huge win IMHO. A separate grid would probably be required for a number of reasons but it would be an invaluable service to lots of people around the world. -Jani

  14. sylvie matova says:

    Katt,

    I don’t want to add fuel to the negativity that usually appears on the comments but when logins are disabled and there’s a re-direct to the status page as there is at this present moment, it would be a great idea to make sure that status page is actually updated with the current problem.

    I click on the link and all I see are resolved issues when there is clearly a current one.

    If it’s a case of the web page being stale in caches, then could I suggest you amend the meta tags to add nocache so that we all see current information.

    Otherwise this is a line of communication that definately needs your touch sooner rather than later.

  15. DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!! says:

    BLOOOOOOOODY HELL WHEN WIL YOU FIX THIS BLOODY WEBSITE AND GAME! SERIOUSLY FIX THIS BEFORE U FIX ANY STUPID CRAP WE DONT NED! WEBSITE AND GAME STABILITY EVERY FLIPPIN BLOODY DAY ITS BROKEN ITS JUST OLD ALREADY!!!!! cannot get to transactions, cannot get to live help, cannot get to my account info ,cannot do a bloody thing on the game cannot post events THIS PLACE IS USELESS NOTHING EVER WORKS!

  16. Win XP? says:

    Windows XP, released in 2001. Hmm.
    Two years *before* “Panther”, what chance has XP got?? Even if it does work *much* better than Vista, sure Vista has the graphics, but XP *works*… (It is not often that Microsoft can be forced to extend the life of an OS).
    (Opps, I have my answer, we all know what wins between pretty and working here)…

  17. WiLLuMPJuH Gausman says:

    “Today we’d like to let you know we’re seriously considering whether Linden Lab should continue supporting Mac OS X 10.3, “Panther.” Our tracking shows that very few of you, about 1/4 of 1 percent of all of you, the entire base of Residents, are still using Apple’s Mac OS X 10.3 when logging into Second Life.

    We’d like to let the Linden engineers stop working on supporting an operating system released in 2003, and instead move on to other work which will benefit a much larger group of Residents. ”

    What would be noticed ? :O

    So.. all this time … you consider not supporting an OS which is used by so few it’s not even worth considering wether it should be considered to consider support for some Apple-configurations that are considered outdated since 2004.

    And your engineers are waiting to put their efforts elsewhere if they get a ‘when’ in 2008 from SL(TM) OSX 10.3 users not to support them anymore ? This is what is keeping up / deteriorating everything else ?

    Hehehe … hahaha … HAHAHAHAHA !!!! 😀

  18. Tavish Flanagan says:

    Even tho I am hardcore Mac user, yes, pull the plug on Panther support. Then devote said resources to improving Leopard performance, which still lags performance of the viewer in Tiger.

  19. Gryphon Dix says:

    Oh yes, drop the Mac OS. Spend more time fixing the bugs like teleport failures and llemail breakages that plague us on a daily basis.

  20. DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!! says:

    i really hate to disturb u lindens but is it at ALL FLIPPIN possible for any of you to get up and type something on you useless grid status about the problems in game on and the website seriously HAVE SOME consideration for your PAYING CUSTOMERS …you know the ones who MAKE it possble for u to take home a paycheck! gezzus i have never sen such horrible incompetence in a business even aol when they had troubles in there infancy took care of there customers this is just sick

  21. la le lu says:

    OH, FORGOT TO MENTION. LOGIN ISSUES. STILL NO ENTRY ON STATUS PAGE. BEG FOR PATIENCE, APOLOGIZE FOR TECHNICAL ISSUES. MOST RECENT.

  22. Vidal Tripsa says:

    Yet again, an exreme minority fail to pay any heed to actual blog messages and just rant away… *sigh*

    Thanks for this message, Katt. I agree with the majority here, that supporting such a minor OS would be a drain on resources. I’m reassured by such moves, and am glad Linden Lab continue to try to make amends.

    Still, I wonder if ramblers like “Disgusted” there would ever be satisfied.

  23. Walentine Andersson says:

    Question…

    When EVERYTHING is down, and suppot is down and your so called status page just suck…what shall we do then?

    FIX THE DATABASE NOW FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  24. Gil Druart says:

    @16 Hardly the same .. Microsoft do SP1, SP2, SP3 and pretend it is all the same really with some minor tweaks. Apple find a new kitty name for every tiny bug fix (oh yes .. and charge for it .. ) .. XP without SP2 probably *isn’t* supported.

    Yes . pull the plug.

  25. Burgess Miles says:

    makes sense…IF you could be able to log in at all…login doesn’t work at all right now…as is the usual way of things…everyday some issue, SL simply doesn’t work for more than max 2 hours in a row…it’s always some issue, always…I’m SO tired of this. I don’t care if you stop supporting this or that as long as you make SL work like it’s supposed to!

  26. Look, i”m all for it, seeing as how i have to switch to some seriously old drivers for SL to even run on my leopard macbook pro.

  27. Naima aya says:

    I agree with that, I use Imac Leopard and we still need more help to bug fix, btw lmao the grid is down 😛

  28. Bryon says:

    Discontinuing support for 10.3.x is the obvious path…
    The 0.25% need to upgrade to 10.4.x by now by all means.
    If they can’t, their machine (probably a G3) is not likely sufficient for any reasonable SL speed anyhow except for an eventual bot.

  29. Vince Bosen says:

    Finally, although I don’t see how stopping development on one OS is gonna help the overall development..

  30. musha says:

    DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!! <– is you ok??? you seem to be angry. why not get a cup of tea and just relax your gona give yourself a migrane. Plus I have been skipping your posts as you seem to always have an anger problem. Yelling and stuff aint gona do no good. how about starting a nice rational topic on the forum instead of screaming?

  31. les says:

    Instead of producing happy distractions like this…update the hidden status blog to state that your DB is cooked again.

    You guys need to play survival at the lab. Every week fire the least effect person in the shop. Perhaps let us vote lindens off the island, as it were. I think you would be the first to go. Or maybe the blind guy who designed dazzle.

    Do something. This incompetence seems to be everlasting.

    Anyone want to buy a devalued island?

  32. Cherry Czervik says:

    Don’t the figures run for themselves with this one?

    Personally, when are facelighters going to work again instead of avatars looking like coalminers? Affects far more people then this issue does.

    /me makes way for “OMG the grid is broken fix it” as I can feel the stampede behind me.

  33. Gavin Hird says:

    Drop active 10.3 development, but let them be able to log on with an outdated client for as long as it does not create transactions that corrupts your database records or creates security issues.

  34. Tom says:

    Yep go for it 2003 software + Hardware has had its day now. Not much point to keep Backtracking to 2003 🙂

  35. Creed Nix says:

    Oh wow, you mean people are still using OS X 10.3? I say disable it, I use a Mac and I’m on 10.5 Leopard. I encourage all Mac users to at least upgrade to 10.4, you’ll be glad you did.

  36. musha says:

    yes disable it. if it’s that outdated and you see it, it might be the best solution for the future time to focus on more client stuff and oh I know less eye candy ^.^

  37. Eveline Nixdorf says:

    I’d not imagine they’d drop support for XP users – there are too many of us, and I’m sure LL is aware of the problems so many folks have with Vista.

  38. Sophia Debevec says:

    LOL you call the current version of SL on OSX tested????????

  39. musha says:

    I will not be upgrading to vista. I am waiting for windows 7 thank you very much.

  40. starbuckhax says:

    I’d concentrate on Tiger and let support of other OS drop

  41. J Jewell says:

    Yes I agree it makes sense to stop supporting Panther. Making assumptions about XP being next simply because of the age however, is silly. Their decision is based on the number of users, like they said. I have a sneaking suspicion that more users are running XP than Vista here. Especially since (from what I hear anyway) SL does not run very well on Vista quite yet.
    *sends some sunshine out to all the angry people*
    relax, take a deep breath, it’s not the end of the world.

  42. Leandra Kohnke says:

    I upgraded from panther within about a month of coming into SL because even though technically Panther was supposed to work well, well it just didn’t. So I think it is fine to stop supporting it and I agree with the decision based on the percent using this system.

    However, I would like to point out that dates mean a lot less in Macs than in PC, i.e. Macs are not supposed to be obsolete in 2 years so just because it is 2003 doesn’t mean it is not worth supporting. If that were your only basis for stopping support I would be screaming about it.

  43. redrach says:

    I’m a mac user in SL and I would not like to see it go. Why can’t you keep it multi platform.

  44. Calliope Simon says:

    Wow, this would all be troubling if it were the case that YOU EVER SUPPORTED ANY VERSION OF OS X AT ALL.

    Please understand, lindens, that many of us see this blog post as a joke…Second Life is still *nearly completely unusable* on Leopard with about half of Apple’s NEW hardware. Why is it that I’m still trickling down to one frame every three seconds…yes…you read that right…on an 8 core mac pro with an NVIDIA 8800?

    I guess this is the “tao of linden”…dont bother fixing whats actually really, really severely broken, pretend it doesnt exist at all, and then go on in excruciating detail all about something entirely unrelated. Bravo.

  45. musha says:

    43@ there resources could be used else where is what I think there getting at.

  46. Coventina Dalgleish says:

    Oh heck why not stop supporting it you have stopped supporting the game it appears another day and the game is a joke can not log back in now when are you people going to wake up and figure out why this platform does not work

    growing very tired of the pathetic performance

  47. wuvme karuna says:

    Stop focusing on small things and fix the damn data base errors, because i can’t log in..

  48. Cold Spitteler says:

    maybe if you axe 10.3 you can fix the issue’s with recording video from the client on 10.5? every time i try to record from the viewer.. it crashes a horrible death, and the jira on the issue is over a year old.. most machinima producers use mac. and im sure most are on 10.5, might be nice if they could natively save video!

  49. This blog is getting plainly useless. Unimportant information on the starting page of the blog. Discussion about supporting or not supporting an antiquated OS – LOL.
    The important information like that logins are impossible once again are hidden on a support page without the possibility to comment.
    PLEASE – Put the important information of the GRID STATUS back on this blog. That’s where it belongs. Or do you want to hide this information from new users and visitors of this blog?

  50. Zulqadi Saarinen says:

    Does that mean, you d focus the released resources on fixing other issues relating Mac, like movie making in SL etc in Tiger or Leopard. If you are gonna reallocate those relieved resources to Mac, then I d say it’s a fair deal, but if you gonna still neglect Mac and give even those resources to Windows, then I d say you are being unfair.

    Please fix movie making with mac in SL.

  51. Sorry to get off topic, but put the status reports on the side of the blog here or something.

    Also, in my opinion, when the company that MAKES THE OS stops supporting it, that’s proabably a good time to start phasing out development on it, and also, i can’t login.

  52. musha says:

    hmm so I take it there is database problems again. *shrugs* (waits patiently)

  53. Maja Mannonen says:

    How about start working on the important issues? Once again everything is down… It has not been fixed through new releases or nothing..

  54. Sal Salubrius says:

    Sounds good to me! Put efforts into stability of the services we all use and I’ll be happy *get’s a database error as she trys to spend lindens whilst reading the blog*

  55. How about group chats? they fail all the time for me!

  56. Shyft Sands says:

    I am one of the few who has been using SL on Panther lately on my most trusted 600 MHz PowerBook. Of course, performance was aweful (between 1.5 and 3 fps) and within a few minutes you could heat a small apartement with the CPU, but hey – it worked. Of course, performance isn’t only determined by the OS alone, but since those who are using Panther tend to run it on some outdated hardware, I guess it’s safe to assume their experience can’t be much different from mine.

    So It worked, but on a very basic level, and besides chatting and IMing there wasn’t really much to do in SL, because anything else (walking, teleporting, leave alone changing clothes or building!) lead to an extremely laggy performance. SL really wasn’t SL, it was just some kind of ICQ with 3D background pictures.

    I, too, have moved on to a more recent system, though, so the change wouldn’t affect me, but speaking as someone who actually experienced SL on an older system I might say it’s not too enjoyable and those who still are using Panther can, and probably will (since Mac Users tend to be using the most recent system), upgrade to Tiger or Leopard and gain a little performance from that, too.

    This wouldn’t neccessarily require a new hardware, but since those that use Panther might probably have outdated hardware, it would be a great idea to get an entire new deck and enjoy the best SL ever.

  57. Cyall Akula says:

    I have an old iBook that is nowhere near powerful enough to run SL, but it’s quite powerful enough to run Tiger. On balance, Tiger does use a little more memory, but I don’t think it uses as much as XP. My point is that Tiger will run on what is now very old hardware indeed, and I would be quite surprised if anyone who uses SL on a Mac actually needs to stick with Panther.

  58. musha says:

    do you guys realize that with a mysql database as big as this that it can be a pain in the left paw to fix correctly? this is a live database that is hit constantly. It’s going to have problems and issues. I have learnt to live with it and dont see a point in venting. they are doing there best and atleast Katt is nice enough to atleast talk with us.

  59. cosa nostra says:

    FOCUS now for once on the coreproblem LINDENLABS !!! And stop giving us info that nobody interesses, again with this blog ya are showing unprofessionalism ??? Do you realize that ???

    After 2 money lost events when transferring money through SLEXCHANGE terminals this weekend (but the team from slexchange dealt with it ….. yes even on a sunday … thx guys !) I even received a mail back from them where you can read how frustrating those people are with the problems you are causing !!!!

    and for the people that think I am frustrated, I am not, I just want the service working were I am paying 295 US$ for every month ….. copy that !! (so dont react)

    cosa

  60. None says:

    So then you will be saying you’ll cut support for XP too? Kinda like you stopped putting service disruptions on the blog so now I have to search for this when I want to know instead of just coming here.

    I signed up for SL a long time ago but couldn’t play because there was no support for 98. So I’d play elsewhere instead. I don’t like upgrading and from all the BS I’ve seen and heard about it. I’m never going to upgrade. It took until last year for me to get XP and I got it when I got a new computer not by choice or I’d still be using 98 SE. But *shrugs* the changes I’m seeing lately are all BS I’m seeing. Having the blog all happy posts and moving the problems to another site and another blog entirely… BS. This isn’t keeping us informed when we can’t even find the information we need. Mis-communication is more like it.

  61. Asset Server Fails every weekend says:

    Good call, and great to see it being asked to the residents first this way.

  62. Also, what happened to Town Halls. Now, i realize that we, the teen grid only are a small percentage of you, but i think a cross-grid town hall, where we SIT DOWN AND DISCUSS THE ISSUES. I DO NOT CARE IF IT MEENS BRINGING THE ENTIRE GRID TO A HALT, IF IT YEILDS SOME GOOD RESULTS!

  63. Sarus Lohner says:

    LL…I cannot help but to find this question a bit humorous.
    – The small percentage of SL users on macs: Well…one of the main reason you find such a small percentage of your users on Macs is simply because your Mac viewers are consistently well below standards. I have used both the PC and the Mac viewers and while I may be called a heretic by the PC user community…I have to say that the PC viewer is far ahead of its mac counterpart.
    – How that will impact us: Frankly, the only way to really enjoy the experience with SL on a mac is to use the fixed version from Nicholaz that he creates. He has this uncanny ability to take LL released viewers and fix them within days, or hours in cases. Why can LL not release versions that are working? Frankly, I’m not sure that I call SL when I have SL issues, I simply go to the user community.

    The point here is that if the Mac viewers were better designed it would entice more mac users such as myself to use your product more. Additionally, it would result in lower costs of technical support.

    Bottom line…stop supporting old version…start supporting current ones…I beg you.

  64. Detox Watanabe says:

    just for clarification: “of all of you, the entire base of Residents” – does this include bots, alt accounts and dead accounts or do you mean active and unique users? 😉

  65. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    @33 Gavin:

    That was absolutely the most on target comment on this blog so far.

  66. BiLez Boa says:

    What a great Idea. Make it seem like you would care about minorities, knowing how the result will be asking this question about something that is probably already decided. But this way it sounds much better, right?

  67. Well, as you said, XP is even more antiquated than Panther lol, but then again, most Mac users have moved on to Tiger and Leopard, because, well, Apple know how to write good OS’s that work lol.

    If it really is taking that much time and resources for that few people, then fair enough. If it’s not much work, keep it in.

    However with MS losing 19% of sales, while Apple was up loads, including sales of Macs up by 51% year on year, mostly switchers, I should imagine XP might be soon on the list, no? Or how about Linux? That surely must be a complete waste of time lol.

    Adding these figures in to Key Metrics would be a good idea.

  68. musha says:

    they would kill half there user base if the stopped support xp. it’s to widely used in corperate world and at home use. so I dont see that happening

  69. Court says:

    If removing support for Panther will create a more stable client for OSX Tiger/Leopard then please dump support.

  70. Araknis says:

    *sends her B&W G3 to the retirement home with Gwyneth’s iMac*

    I’m yet another that’s surprised Panther is still supported. If so few people are still using it it’s definitely a waste of resources to continue to support it.

    Oh and to reply to the off topic Win XP worries, how many people are still on or have gone back to XP… probably just a couple more than 0.25% do you think? They’re talking about axing support for an OS that pretty much nobody uses anymore and isn’t supported by any software company… get a grip

  71. musha says:

    court I think your on to something

  72. Youri Ashton says:

    All fun to have more official supported OS systems, but isn’t it better to fix all current problems first? Like fully supporting Vista and 64bit systems? And getting SL atleast back online without anything being borked? Maybe add a offline sandbox so that people who build, do clothing, or anything simular can just proceed working without being interrupted all the time by crashes, maintenance, etc?

    For short: first the current problems, then see if there is space for some new add-ons!

  73. Asset Server Fails every weekend says:

    @59 musha: Do you realize mySQL is not suited for large data storage? 😛

    I do hope and cannot believe they still are running on mySQL, that would be like carrying an elephant on a bicycle with a flat tire. But then again, it would explain all the failures and load problems. Since mySQL is not a true matrix database and certainly not suited for large scale operations.

    But i shut up now… tried to be positive, since this is a positive blog entry… seems LL is going the right way 🙂

  74. Desmond Shang says:

    2003 isn’t that long ago.

    An operating system a mere 5 years old? The people stuck on older systems are usually those least able to get new ones: students, retirees, people like that.

    I think the real question is: who are we going to lose?

    Rather than call it an anonymous 1/4 of 1%, imagine the impact if a list of SL names we are likely to lose are listed.

    Imagine it phrased that way: “Can we stop supporting the operating system of these 30,000+ out of 13 million people?” (thirty pages of names follow).

    I would urge that the company hang on and ‘go the extra mile’ until it’s just ridiculously, crazily, off-the-hinge impossible to support. Ten years down the road… yeah, I could see it. But just five?

    I’ve seen people running SL on goofy little handhelds and even on an old Apple GS somehow somewhere, if memory serves. There was even talk of a mobile app. Imagine how you would feel watching that kind of stuff, while your own operating system was sidelined.

    It ain’t glamourous to maintain legacy support, and it ain’t cheap. But I think it’s the right thing to do and sends the exactly right message: the Company is serious about supporting its existing userbase.

    I don’t think the Company can afford to make even the slightest move in the direction of ‘let some little guys fall between the cracks while we work on cool things.’

    There have been too many mistakes in that direction over the years. I understand mistakes, but to intentionally lean that way… no.

    That philosophy will end up being more expensive than maintaining support for a 5 year old operating system.

    Desmond Shang
    Independent State of Caledon

  75. Josue Habana says:

    Sounds like a reasonable idea! Not a Mac user myself, but based on the percentage of users using that as opposed to its release date, I would say it is a wise move.

    It’s kind of pitiful that people are whingeing and ranting on this post about completely unrelated problems. Yes, we’re all frustrated with recent problems, but this is a completely separate issue on which we are actually being asked for input before a decision taken. Is it so hard to, firstly, stay on topic and secondly, have some manners?

  76. musha says:

    74@ I know this too. but it’s what they have in place. I couldnt imagine with the terrabytes of info they have that they would want to port that to another DB system. eep major loss of everyting I would suspect

  77. musha says:

    77 edit* I read that someplace in world and on google. but katt would be able to fully verify it

  78. musha says:

    well back to what I was doing in the first place. Time to go play on meh open stuffage and get it working correct *beats head into wall* grid mode=fail

  79. Akamu Lurra says:

    This news scares me. Being a Tiger user I suppose that I can expect the same to happen to me in the next two years. I think support for an OS should go for longer than 5 years, (no matter how many subsequent OSes are released). I would like to be able to not feel that I have to update every 5 years since I don’t make alot of money in rl. If this is the new policy then the residents should start saving $26/year for OS upgrades to continue being a member of the community. Also, the oldest iMac that can run Tiger was made in ’99, so a hardware upgrade every 9 years would also be required = $134/yr which makes the annual “upgrade” fund go to roughly $160/yr. Based on this I think it would be more reasonable to end support for OSes after 10 years instead. You could always do what AOL does for

  80. As a die-hard Mac user, I support discontinuing support for OS 10.3

  81. None says:

    @74

    MYSQL shouldn’t be used for this type of game. For storage or otherwise. But… This is LL we’re talking about. They probably have about 30 DB running different parts and pulling different information from all over 30 DB’s. Which is why it takes forever to log in, and the ass- set server never wanting to work… DB collissions anyone?

  82. Hal says:

    Yup, another voice for the nays – stop supporting it, more Mac users tend to update their OS when Apple release new versions so it’s not as big an issue to the Mac community as it would be for Windozers (altho it’s interesting how many have an opinion on Mac support…).

    No disrespect to Panther-using Macheads but surely any Mac that shipped with 10.3 would really be struggling with SL now anyway?

    But PLEASE make the Mac version better for the rest of us, it still lags (literally) behind the Windoze version! It’s especially annoying to see bugs being blogged as fixed only to find that the fix is not yet in the Mac version, only ‘doze, why not acknowledge that when releasing new RC versions for example?

  83. Asset Server Fails every weekend says:

    @77: A linden told me a year ago they were porting to a real database, Oracle or (im afraid to say it here it prolly get flamed)… so I really hope they did this, or are doing it. It would solve a lot of problems.

    mySQL is nice, for a small website, but for terrabytes? that is a huge lol.

    Anyway, off-topic maybe… Great blog entry… focus is the word! focus on the real deal!! =)

  84. Lom Hax says:

    I’m a Mac-cerntic SL user and I say go for it. The only Macs I know of running 10.3 are too slow to run SL anyway.

    I would much rather see LL’s resources devoted to addressing outstanding performance problems on newer Macs.

  85. Darko McMahon says:

    Do you ever supported OSX at all? I’m having such a poor experience on Leopard. And it was the same on Tiger. The OSX version of the client is just ridiculous! In XP, with bootcamp, i’m having +20% of FPS and i’m running it on THE SAME machine. On THE SAME hardware. Please, stop the support on Panther (i’m surprised somebody is still using it!) and focus your efforts on building an “acceptable” version of the client for Tiger and Leopard.

  86. Midorii Akina says:

    How about you update the blog to show what problems are happening CURRENTLY? Sorry, Katt, but I have to agree with the masses. Aside from wording things a certain way, you’re job is useless.

    However, I won’t go into a giant rant about it, because there’s no point. Better to move on and try and point y’all in the right direction than to bitch and whine and moan about it.

    Start fixing teleports, fix the transactions, and so forth. Please at least TRY and keep the blog updated so that it’s current? Logins are still down, and there seems to be problems with the asset server every other day.

  87. Andromeda Quonset says:

    It seems reasonable to deprecate Panther support. I would worry if this means that the team responsible for Panther support will find themselves in the unemployment line in 60-days, or will someone decide they have the background to work on one of the other LL teams?

    RE:MySQL – Sun Microsystems constantly sends me emails about how great it scales-up for enterprise level.

  88. Adsta Congrejo says:

    I have a little song for you, I think the move away from supporting an old unused operating system is a wise one, but only if you refocus those resources on what is important!

    Oh Linden Labs, Oh Linden Labs, when will you focus on your customers?
    Oh Linden Labs, Oh Linden labs, when will you care about us?
    We want you to, Stabilize
    We dont care about more pretty Skies.
    Oh Linden Labs, oh Linden labs, when will you care about us.
    Please no more shiny seas,
    if it means reliability.
    Oh Linden Labs, Oh Linden Labs, when will you care about us?

    Ok Ive run out of rhymes to fit this song. lol. Please just do one of ur log on surveys and ask what we want, we are your customers, we are your profit, right now, many many of us are getting more and more tired of unstable crashie, non-connecting, non functionality. I personally know this is an LL issue, because I have recently gone and spent a lot of money on a better internet connection and upgraded my computer… so why oh why is that resulting in a worse experience than when I ran my 4 year old laptop?
    FOCUS LL, FOCUS;)

  89. Khamon says:

    It’s impossible for us to respond intelligently to your question without knowing the number of people and work hours that would become available as well as the duty reassignment (dare I say) plan based on the skills of the people currently involved in the OSX support effort.

  90. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    @84:
    If you aren’t running MyISAM tables it scales quite nicely.

  91. musha says:

    *waves at andro*

  92. i say the client is open and if theres a big enough need people can solve the problem themselves.

  93. musha says:

    I would like to fully know what they are using for there back bone. Ive gotten the run around in world about these issues. Kinda hard to run a lag thing and not be able to get approprite data

  94. I think this is great hopefully it will give some more time for Leopard issues, I notice on the new client my client seems to freeze every so many minutes and then comes back. It has gotten quite annoying it didn’t do this with RC, so I am guessing this will give more time to have this worked on 🙂
    Thanks linden lab for the hard work!

  95. Tom says:

    To those concerned about XP its fine its the 2003 Software that has had its day and to 2003 motherboards that wouldnt support a Hardware good enough to run Sl and stuff like that it just holds SL in 2003 time to move on anyways think this is to right move LL 🙂

  96. Vivienne says:

    I agree with dropping 10.3. And it is a great move to publsh it on the blog.

    And now, please, fix the ugly mac bugs for the Tigers and Leopards before they bite you. ouch!

  97. Speed Racer says:

    Here is an idea… Maybe LL should support the current Mac OS better. To do this, Linden engineers can stop wasting time on supporting all other obsolete Pre-2003 OS Systems. Bye Bye XP, you boat anchor!

  98. DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!! says:

    @ 22 and 58 when u have many many 1000of US dollars and you are trying to run a business on a business platform that fails every day you tend to get a lil PIZZED OFF if i ran web space on a web site such as this renting it from a company and it was down more than up you would get a lil pizzed off those who have no businesses or investments here do not understand that this is our paycheck that feeds and supports our families so when your losing money daily from a system that spouts off being a business platform for companies to run a business then you tend to get a lil choked with the business that is holding back your sales by shutting them off so no one can purchase your items ….im sure if someone took ur paycheck away that u feed ur family with u would get a litle upset as well

  99. Spontaneous Radio says:

    Katt could you post the states for all the operating sytems that are being used in SL I use XP but was thinking of getting a MAC Book Pro,, but don’t want to spend that kind of money if its not going to be supported in 60 days. I know nothing about MAC right now I was just looking into it, so I don’t know the OS. Maybe LL could recomend a computer that would support all the SL features. WHat are the Lindens using to log onto SL?

  100. Finkel says:

    Yep, let them go…..
    LL should work on stuff that benefits the most users….Much like any other QA department would do it.

    Thanks for asking. LL 😉

  101. Vivienne says:

    @ 86

    Yes, yes , yes, If the price for that additional 20 fps and a less buggy overall performance on my 7800 GT G5 is the drop of Panther, so be it…

    I doubt any Panther native G3 is able to run Sl, anyway. You are sooo right there.

  102. Roofio Althouse says:

    dump ’em all and go straight for the latest one.. you’re not dealing with financial institutions here.. Mac users upgrade and they upgrade fast.. Just stick to 10.5.. Mac users should still think themselves lucky that they’ve got anything like this running anyways.. As apple has such a small market share.. And before I get derided for being an Apple hating windows user. Got a Mac.. and have developed on one for many years 😛 ..

  103. Katt Linden says:

    Hi Spontaneous – Personally I’m using a Mac to log into Second Life, two actually, one with Tiger and one with Leopard.

  104. Vivienne says:

    @ Katt

    Uh Oh..welcome to the club!

  105. musha says:

    I am just going to scratch my head at DISGUSTED IN LINDEN LABS™® *!@$!!. They seem to be mad at the RW too. so I just stay quiet and behave. because I not e-thug on blog meant for approprite comments.

  106. Finkel says:

    @most you guys 😉

    The issue here is not so much if the OS is 3,4,5 or 117 years old. The main reason you want to stop supporting it is that it takes a lot of ressources and benefits only a small percentage of users.

    So please, keep in mind if enough of the user base uses OS XYZ it will be supported endlessly.

  107. musha says:

    Hi katt ^.^ I had to move away from Mac a while back because SL didnt like it. so I moved back to windows and feel in love with SL ~*mew*~

  108. musha says:

    erm my mac didnt like SL. me cant think right now. lol No coffee

  109. Vivienne says:

    @ 103

    “Just stick to 10.5”

    Ah no. Not enough advantages there. Or is the Open GL stuff in Leopard better than the one in Tiger? Or the graphic card drivers? I don´t think so.

  110. Ric Mollor says:

    ——————Quoting—————-
    Our tracking shows that very few of you, about 1/4 of 1 percent of all of you, the entire base of Residents, are still using Apple’s Mac OS X 10.3 when logging into Second Life.
    ——————————————-

    Does the mean .25 percent of 13+ million that is claimed as “residents” or .25 percent of the roughly 260,000 active users?

    If it is that latter of the two, it should be fairly obvious that it’s not cost effective to expend much in the way of support for a group of 650 when there are *much* larger issues that need addressing.

    Perhaps a bit more clarity as to exactly how many would be affected is in order.

  111. Steven Morrisey says:

    If discontinuing support for Panther means increased support for Tiger and Leopard, then go for it. However, I do hope the Lindens realize that Panther is not that “old” and this sets an awful precedent. When is a processor too old to be supported any longer? A graphics card? And how many Windows 2000 users are logging into SL? Just wondering, so I can have a better idea of when my G5 iMac will no longer be supported.

  112. Lukas Mensing says:

    @spontaneous.
    Lindens log INTO ssecondlife?
    Just like us? I thought they were like its spirit, its essence and its pure soul…
    I start even doubting their existence.
    Do anyone see Lindens inworld anymore?

  113. My first reaction to this was to ask myself, “what do they want to do that won’t work on Panther”?

    That’s my first reaction when some company drops Panther or Tiger from their product, and usually it means they want to use some fancy transition that requires Quartz 3d or something else that doesn’t actually add functionality to the product. If anything, Linden Labs has more reason to abandon Panther than most developers.

    But I’d still like to know what it was that brought this up… so I read on… and they’re not saying they’re actually going to abandon my Mac mini, they’re just saying that they’re not going to fix it if it breaks.

    My question is… if they do break Panther some time after they drop it, and someone happens to send them a patch that fixes it, will there be any chance of that patch being imported?

    On the other hand, don’t listen to Roofio. I’m running Panther on my Mac mini and Tiger on my Macbook, and I have no intention of upgrading past Tiger until I have to. Not unless someone comes up with a hack that lets me run Tiger’s Finder on Leopard… or Apple fixes Cocoa Finder to support per-folder display preferences again. Or maybe until they add per-folder preferences to PathFinder, since that’s the feature that kept me from switching from Finder to PathFinder for good.

  114. WiLLuMPJuH Gausman says:

    “!! Attention !! Final support advice for Mac OSX 10.3 users : Upgrade noe or watch it’s hamster running to exhaustion quickly !! “

  115. Steven@112: good point. I’m still running Windows 2000.

  116. Vivienne says:

    @ 112

    My G5 runs on high speed since i upgraded to a flashed nvidia 7800 GT (in comparison to the radeon 9800 i ran before). So the G5 is not the problem at all. The problem seems to be the Graphic Card, Open GL versions and drivers. Windlight still is a drag somehow, but it is on most Windoze systems, too. I only have some serious problems using the anti-aliasing of the RC…really sad, because it is a great feature for ANY nvidia Mac (if they ever get it to work)!

  117. Takafumi Farina says:

    I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to compare the dropped support of Panther to the dropped support of XP. People can still run XP on modern, powerful hardware. Panther cannot be run on newer hardware that would benefit Second Life. As both a PC and Mac user, I think it would be all right if Linden Labs dropped Panther support. However, other Mac users may argue. What benefits would Mac users get from the dropped support of Panther and the extra resources devoted to Tiger and Leopard?

  118. coventina dalgleish says:

    Perhaps if those at linden research would look at their grid status web page they might get a hint about the lack of flexibility in this platform. From a users standpoint I see it everyday if I was an observer on the outside looking in the track record it is pathetic. Nothing ever runs for 5 or 6 hours without something failing. Perhaps there is a flaw in the concept of how this should be assembled. If that is not the case then something should be done to make the current set up stable. One of the major problems is the massive memory leak in the client side program if someone does not have a minimum of 2 gigs of memory anything over an hour or two of participating results in a crash. This is a basic problem that should have been addressed long ago. Again, giving an indication of the focus or lack thereof of the company suppling this structure.

  119. Donna says:

    ” 113. Everyday. But if all of the Lindens were InWorld ALL of the time then they couldn’t be working on other things, that don’t require them to be InWorld and that would worry me. Also they offer support from Out Of Second Life too on the phone, Live Chat etc. and yes I see at least 3 InWorld at any one time.

  120. Steven Morrisey says:

    @ 118

    I neglected to mention that I reverted to using version 1.19.0 of the SL viewer on my iMac G5 (running Tiger) because version 1.19.1 bogs things down so bad that SL is unusable, regardless of how low I set my graphic preferences. So obviously, I am concerned that Linden Labs will eventually force a new viewer on me which will put an end to my existence in SL.

  121. Youri Ashton says:

    GRRRRRRRR, and again SL crashes without any warning! FIX THE BUG PLEASE!!!! I don’t wanna loose in-world items for the 2nd time!

  122. Vivienne says:

    @ 120

    “I see at least 3 InWorld at any one time.”

    Oh my, better keep this for yourself. I don´t want to see three of them lynched at the same time by the mob…or slain by the Giant mySQL Wormhole or something equally ugly.

  123. Ciaran Laval says:

    I think if you quoted numbers rather than percentages it might give people a better indication of the implications.

    However if it means you can free someone to put a simple prominent HTML link on the title page to the grid status updates, then definitely go for it 😉

  124. thearchitect says:

    Kill, Kill, Kill them all

  125. BigManu GREENE says:

    The thing is I have a 8 core Mac Pro with 8 gigs of ram and the latest nvidia graphic card, and SL keep crashing under Leopard… I had to instal vista on my mac (gasp!) to continue using SL… Hey Lindens, if you need testers using Mac, just ask me, it will be a pleasure for me 😉

  126. Donna says:

    @ 123. OMG You are sooo right better hide them away quikly! lol

  127. Vivienne says:

    @ 126

    “I had to instal vista on my mac (gasp!) to continue using SL…!”

    OMG…i read the use of bootcamp is widespread among Leopard users. Isn´t it ironic? 2000+ bucks fo a MacPro. Running SL on Windoze as good as a 800 bucks PC…..eeeeeek

    /me shudders

  128. RJ Thibaud says:

    I’m a Mac user who upgraded to both Tiger and Leopard. I would much, much prefer to see resources spent to improve the viewer experience in general, and the Mac experience in particular, than to continue supporting obsolete OSes. Also, I suspect removing the constraints of running with Panther would allow your team to take better advantage of the improved SDK that comes with each new release.

  129. Sandor Balczo says:

    @112:

    I use an iMac G5 w/iSight I purchased in 2006 and I am going to replace it with a newer iMac because its graphic card (ATI X600 pro) is not supported by LL anymore and, as anyone who has an iMac knows, it cannot be replaced.

    I think that answers your question.

    If the trend is for the hardware to be constantly on the high end to allow a good user experience in SL, I believe hardware and OS support are doomed to last two years, at last for any Mac that cannot upgrade its hardware. Which makes SL a very expensive game.

  130. BigManu GREENE says:

    @128
    Do you use your computer only for SL? 😉

  131. Lukas Mensing says:

    @Donna (or 120 if you prefer numbers)
    well you see 3 of “them” in same time? wow!
    and dont tell me same place?
    Is it during temple hours?

  132. RJ Thibaud says:

    @128

    Um, most of us don’t use our computers just for SL… Besides, most of us Mac users don’t have the same experience running SL on Leopard (although the current First Look has had problems with the NVidia drivers that can actually freeze Leopard – which is quite hard to do.)

    Also, where can I get a MacPro like that for $2k??? 🙂

  133. Vivienne says:

    @ 130

    Yes, I do not like the road to highest end hardware. But Atmospheric Shaders hit the PC platform as hard as they hit us. I still think Windlight -as it is now- was a waste of time, money and resources for a lot of different reasons, but that´s only my opinion.

    And if you do not want or need Windlight for building, the Nicholaz Viewers are out there for the Mac (1.18) and they still work fine.

  134. SeanMcPherson Senior says:

    As a Mac, Linux and Windows user who does run 10.3 on one of my Mac machines (and thus is one of the few even theoretically impacted by this change, as opposed to many of the posters above), I’m perfectly happy to have support for it end-of-life’d as far as the SL client goes. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to do so. I have the option to either upgrade the machine to a more supported OS or to use one of my newer boxes. LL doesn’t support my BeOS box or my C64 either, and as long as they support the 2 most recent versions of OSX I think they’re doing fine. Thanks for asking, but please don’t spend any more resources on 10.3 support/development.

  135. Drake Bacon says:

    .25% of all users use Panther?

    Yeah, that’s when you toss offical support for it and move on. The client’s open source, let the dedicated build it themselves.

  136. Raul Crimson says:

    I understand your move, Katt. “Panther” is quite an old OS, i understand is good, but you should concentrate your efforts on a more modern OS. Anyway, having “Panther” means having posibly a PowerPC G3 processor, not sure if a G3 can handle SL as it is right now.

  137. shiro says:

    i am a user of all 3 platforms and i will throw in my support for the discontinuation of panther support.

    as a side not tho i LMAO that the linux version works 10x better than ANY OSX version ever has and its beta!

  138. Donna says:

    @ Lukas, 132. LOL Well if you go to Office Hours you will see a Linden and maybe even a few Lindens, if you go to Bug triage there is atleast usually 4 there, that’s on a Wednesday. If you go to a VTeam Meeting (Second Life Mentors) you will usually see 4. If you go to a Linden Lab Party, like the opening of I World Island for example you are likely to see a few. If you go to a Lindens land of Linden Village you will see a Linden, maybe. er what other ways? Well there are lots of ways lol

  139. Porky Gorky says:

    I support this proposal. 0.25% is not a justifiable percentage to maintain support. Efforts would be better spent supporting that latest versions of the Mac OS

  140. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    @123:
    Lynched? By the mouth breathing virgins of SL? I suspect most of them can’t handle themselves, much less anyone else.

  141. Razrcut Brooks says:

    Dump it.

  142. Shortdog says:

    Hey “Disgusted at LL”, is this about your ancient Mac OS fritzing your precious income, or just another general bitch slap at LL again?

    Are you actually linked to the business grid side of SL, like IBM and Sun Microsystems, or do you just run a shop?

    Sorry Lindens, nothing constructive to say about support for Mac OS, I run XP and Linux. Now, better Linux support, that I would applaud.

    As for myself, I am a simple resident, and I on every day.
    OK, there is the occasional crash by the viewer.
    Transactions can get a bit bogged down server side.
    Sometimes teleport is a bit flaky.
    We have to live with some beta fun.
    At least LL are doing a better job than some others in the same field.
    Want troublesome? Try the OpenLifeGrid. But even that is improving.

    As for OS support, if it is no longer supported by the manufacturer, why keep a big team on it? Maybe more like a passing checkup for a while longer then ask those left to seriously consider upgrading or risk a blank screen one day.
    Let’s all just hope MS get Vista to actually work, because they are dropping XP soon. LOL.

    Well have fun kiddies, I’m off to wander around the wonderland that is SL.

    Thank you Linden’s for a great place to play.

  143. Kyder Ling says:

    I say out with the old and in with the new!

  144. HatHead says:

    Second Life, the self-proclaimed version of the next interweb, needs to be universal to live up to that claim.

  145. SexySteven Morrisey says:

    @145

    Agreed, HatHead… and well said. to fulfill its promise, SL needs to run smoothly, and as stable as possible on any recent hardware and operating system configuration. Period.

    If Linden Labs insist that we chuck our computers every 18 months because they choose to abandon support for older systems, or add so many new bells and whistles that only people with a dedicated T-1 line can get SL to run smoothly, then I guess I’ll be switching to WoW, like most everybody else… LOL

  146. Escort DeFarge says:

    Drop everything else. Fix the core server-side systems, please! Freeze any client development that doesn’t contribute to grid stability. My 2c!

  147. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    @146
    Actually it needs to work to live up to that claim.

  148. Ener Hax says:

    is it really that tiny a group? 0.25% of 10 million is still 2,500 peeps. so that is like 5% of users on at any night (~50K+). i guess i’m just pointing out what is that number? of ALL accounts ever created, of current accounts? what is the number, say, of peeps in the last 30 or 60 days? that would be more meaningful . . . but all in all, i am being obstinate and pedantic. move ahead, it’s wen 2.0 🙂

  149. Lunette Fouroux says:

    I confess to being one of the 0.25% still using Panther. I’ve been trying to convince the old man to sanction an upgrade, but I doubt this will help as he doesn’t approve of my SL addiction. So, I’ll try not to let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

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