Changes to Groups: New Rules on Group Notices

Edited for Clarity: Sorry for the confusion. The new rules do not prohibit a group from sending more than 200 messages. They do mean that if a group has more than 200 notices stored, starting with the 201st, the group can expect those notices to be regularly removed from storage in the database. 

Group messages older than 14 days or in excess of 200 can be expected to be deleted from the database (once each day.) — Katt

– – –

As part of our ongoing effort to provide you with the highest quality Second Life experience possible…we have identified and tested an issue that should help alleviate load on the databases. 

  1. Starting Tuesday, 6 May, 2008, all group notices that are older than 14 days will be removed from storage in the database. (Notices were previously held for 31 days.)  The reason for this change is to help reduce load on the database. Note: Nearly *every* group that uses notices in Second Life will be effected by this change, which will be ongoing. 
     
  2. Groups will now be limited to 200 notices *per group* each day. Older messages, over the 200th, will be regularly removed from storage in the database.  There are about 135 groups we expect will be impacted by this limit. The owner of each of these groups should see a message in-world Tuesday, notifying them of the change.  

Please note that in both cases this process would remove the *oldest* notices, if any. This will start on Tuesday 6 May, 2008, and is intended to help stabilize the databases.

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150 Responses to Changes to Groups: New Rules on Group Notices

  1. Dahlia Trimble says:

    This will *hopefully* improve group IM reliability?

  2. Drew Dwi says:

    200 group notices per day? christ who can send that many notices in 1 day.

  3. Damien says:

    Someone was sending more than 200 messages a day???

  4. Nargus Asturias says:

    200 notices per day? I actually thought you’d say per month. What the heck are they sending them for that much per day? I think I’d call it one-way chat and not group notices.

  5. Johan says:

    200 a day! That’s amazing that some 135 groups regular surpass that limit. I write very few personally, but I don’t see why a group would have so many notices posted in a singular day. I think that’s just a situation where group notices are being used in lieu of group messages. Perhaps LL should take a poll, or look closer at the max that the majority of groups use. I personally could get by with 1 per day, and a limit of say, 10 would be way more than enough. If you’re looking to reduce load, then really go for it.

  6. Lixena says:

    I agree hopefully this is stabilize the databases. There are networkring groups that have over 1000 members that allow its members to freely send notices or announcements such as club events. A very great example of a group doing exactly this is the Fashion Consolidated group. A group of members mad about fashion where designers can notice or announce the release of new items and sales announcement. I am sure that they hit the 200 mark some days.

  7. Johan says:

    If I was in a group that put out 200+ notices a day, I’d leave the group

  8. RavenPhoenix says:

    Question on the limit of 200 messages per day:

    Is this limit on the number of avatars that will receive a message sent, or the number of messages a group can send during the day?

    I ask, because we have a group of over 2000 members, and have been having problems with Group Notices getting out to all members. Some get them, some do not, and this is the only group I belong to whose Group Notices don’t go out to e-mail if you have your notices set to do so. Since I have trouble seeing a group sending out 200 messages per day (who would want to belong to THAT?), I’m just trying to clarify the limit, which would certainly impact a group with over 200 members.

    Thank you 🙂

  9. Pingback: Changes to Groups: New Rules on Group Notices - SLUniverse Forums

  10. hypatia says:

    ergh, nerfing the use of groups isnt exactly the way to fix them. How about giving us some better functionality before just taking away features?

  11. I can’t believe notices exceed 200 per day either. wow.

    My only real issue with groups is:
    The inability to opt out of group chat as you can do with notices. (It’s often chat and not notices that I find disruptive).

  12. hypatia says:

    This can be a big problem for big groups like Fashion Consolidates, where we have thousands of users and designers. We already limit them to one a week but why dont you give us some features to actually limit them rather than opening up our groups to a new kind of griefing (flooding the group so the database purges other people’s notices)

    you know its going to happen.

  13. hypatia says:

    *Fashion Consolidated I am queen of the typos.

  14. Elvis Orbit says:

    You could probably limit group notices to 50 a day without many complaints. Wow 200 a day I’d be in the group until the 10 notice came for that day. I take it though these 200 notice a day groups must be related so some kind of project though, University or something similar.

  15. Oh – and the fact that I’m limited to 25 groups and most of the groups I need to be in for product updates.

  16. Violet Faulds says:

    Do notices mean IM’s? Or notices sent by going into the group and sending an actual notice?

  17. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    @hypatia:
    Well, if you experience griefing, feel free to kick the member from the group. Further, don’t let everyone send out a notice whenever they want to. Set up a system where a notecard is dropped off and 5-6 times a day a notice is sent out containing everything.

    Your group of high fashion (I’m sure. *cough*) shouldn’t be allowed to contribute to a huge problem for the rest of the grid. Clean up your litter box before talking about how anyone else’s stinks.

  18. hypatia says:

    I’m just a chat admin @Hadley, the group belongs to Honey Fairweather.

    My POINT is that we rely on people doing the right thing. Only designers can send a notice to the group, however, all it will take is one griefer who signs up gets in and spams the group, and the fact remains WE HAVE NO WAY TO STOP THEM FROM DOING IT. Just like we have no way to stop people from chatting, no way to stop people from spamming, etc.

    Honey’s group features are in fact some of the most voted upon proposals on JIRA, so it would be wise to extricate that foot of yours from your mouth sweetie 🙂

  19. Crystal Falcon says:

    As someone who frequently wishes she could refer back more than a month to older notices, it would be nice before this were implemented if we could at least log notices locally like IMs. 😦

    otoh, does “Groups will now be limited to 200 notices *per group* each day. Older messages, over the 200th, will be regularly removed from storage in the database” mean they are limited to *storing* so many notices or *sending* that many?

    Since #1 refers only to storing, and the second sentence refers to storing, I’m guessing we could send 500 messages, but only the most recent 200 will be available to be read in the notices tab, is that right?

  20. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    Easy way to keep griefers out: Charge an entrance fee.

    You wanna talk about foot in the mouth? People bitch on every blog post about fixing grind stability, fix the asset server, fix the database. Well guess what? They’re trying.

    But that isn’t good enough, oh no. Instead “Stop adding new features and fix the problems” being the refrain, now we have a bunch of prima donna fashionista designers complaining that they’re going to have to change the way they do things because THEY ARE TRYING TO FIX THE PROBLEMS.

    The answer isn’t “new tools and features.” It’s use the ones they’ve given you. Use the best tool you had before you signed on here and THINK. Griefers won’t pay for anything, so make your group non-free. Make it REQUIRE an admin to let them in.

    But mostly, don’t act like they are being unreasonable. That they let you get away with that garbage for so long is the bigger problem.

  21. hypatia says:

    Hadley you obviously have no clue who I am, I wonder if you even read the wiki or the jira, if you did, you’d know who the hell I am and you’d stop making stupid assumptions about me. Because seriously, you come off pretty darn stupid 🙂

    Charging an entrance fee is not the answer for a group that relies on having people being able to join freely. We only charge designers to send notices, not people who want to get notices. The system is a pretty sophisticated one, as our group is very large and popular.

    Having the ability to set a posting limit for notices IS the answer. We need this if its going to be possible to scroll people’s messages from the archives, and many of our members use the archives frequently.

    Ah well, yet another Jira to add to the huge amount we’ve got up there already.

  22. Cherry Czervik says:

    No group *needs* 200 notices a day. No wonder so many people simply turn off the group notice option, which makes it nigh on useless to promote things anyway.

    Wouldn’t notices expiring within 7 days suffice? Besides, how many of those notices are goig towards bots etc? That’s your real challenge, how to code out access to those little lifesucking leeches who drain your resources and make vast areas of SL desolately lonely and empty despite the figures.

    Maybe people would stop wasting their time effort and money making things when there isn’t actually enough live and unique logins to support them with custom. Thank god I have never relied on SL to keep me playing.

    Most people want more groups, especially those with businesses. Considered giving Concierge level more? That doesn’t affect me and unless some serious changes are apparent very soon then the finances for that island my partner keeps wanting to buy me is staying firmly in his bank account because he knows that I won’t accept it right now.

  23. Atlwolf Blabbermouth says:

    “stuff that’s off-topic, abusive, or otherwise busts the rules will be removed without comment.”

    If only….

    hypatia…no one cares

  24. Ann Otoole says:

    if you can’t figure out how to fix it then cripple it.

    will we see prim attachment limits? or no attachments of any kind and only 8*8 textures allowed and no prims in a sim?

    The direction is going the wrong way. the end users express a need and the response is to cripple.

    we are users paying to be here so how sl works is really none of our business anyway.

    oh and by the way, you will merely see the people that have a need for more communications just make a few more groups and the same number of notices will hammer the system per day. this is because there is no limit on how many accounts you can have so people will just make more accounts to carry more groups to bypass the limits.

    next?

  25. hypatia says:

    Cherry, I’ve been the admin in forums that have had far more than 200 posts a day. It’s not unusual.

    The bigger point is now its possible to nerf your group archives via the notices feature by scrolling. I’m not going to get into particulars of my past forum experiences (suffice to say I have online services experience stretching back more than 12 years, I’m not a kid nor new to online) but I’m shocked that nobody thought that this might actually make someone want to post that many notices in a group to cause trouble. I’m just saying… if you make it possible to scroll an archive, please give us better admin tools to stop people from scrolling in the first place… rather than listening to us complain in abuse reports after it happens. please 🙂

  26. Bella Sloane says:

    OH NO! I have been away for two weeks, and will ultimately be away for a total of three weeks to be with my family due to my father’s death. I was expecting to do a LOT of catching up when I got back. And now they will all be wiped?? I don’t think 30 days is too much to ask. Of course, not all people have circumstances like mine, but there are a million reasons that people are away for more than 14 days… vacations… extra work.. etc.

    I have NO objection to reducing the maxmium number of notices per day (200 is ridiculously high as it is.. groups can simply manage the importance of their notices and be more efficient)… but PLEASE don’t reduce the time limit on the archiving!

  27. Hadley Yoshikawa says:

    I’m coming across as stupid….Yet I’m not one of the ones prompting the change. Think about that, sugar.

    There’s no reason to send that many group notices. I’ve outlined several options it would take a scripter about 30 minutes to implement. But I’m so stupid.

    Don’t be so defensive because I outlined how to prevent griefing and keep you from blowing past your group notice limits.
    Let me summarize them so you don’t forget.
    1) Charge people to be able to send group notices, whether through an entrance fee to the group or require them to pay an admin to get added.
    2) Remove people who “grief” the group notices. No strike, no warnings, drop em fast and hard.
    3) Hire a decent scripter to work on a system to combine notecards and send them out less frequently. Sore of like a…ready for this one? A CATALOG.

    All of a sudden your >200 notices a day are cut down to 10 or 24 or 48, should you choose to send them twice an hour.

    I’d offer to do it for you, but you just aren’t the type of person I do work for. Narrow-minded, short-sighted whiners aren’t worth any more of my time.

  28. Good grief! 200!?! Isle of Wyrms Citizens which is fairly active sends at MOST perhaps between 5 or 6 notices during a major festival… seriously while I applaud keeping ahead of free speach perhaps the limit could be cropped even lower if it’d improve performance. I’d be happy even if it were knocked down to 100 or 50.

    Additions I’d like to see….

    1. More groups per person.
    2. Checkbox “recieve group chat IM” (blocks unsolicited IMs from group)
    3. Role option “allow group chat IM” (blocks send and recieve)
    4. More Roles
    5. Fewer time outs and lag in group IM.

  29. Oh yeah here’s an idea… in the “send notice” section perhaps a checkbox to “save notice in history” or not… some notices arent so vital that it has to be saved. Like messages for an event that is currently underway. I bet that’d save on some storage space. ^.^

  30. I’d be all for setting the daily limit lower than 200. I think 2 weeks is a fair time limit. Any shorter would seriously hamper the ability to use notices for publicizing events.

    Since Linden Research is clearly not able to provide a comprehensive and useful communication toolset, I’m willing to settle for better performance of the tools that we do have. If I am mistaken and Linden Research *is* able to provide a comprehensive and useful communication toolset, then I suggest you do so ASAP.

  31. hypatia says:

    Atlwolf, speak for yourself.

    Many many people do care, and have voted and commented on the JIRA, about how to fix groups. The fact is, I don’t see this addressing their concerns at all. I hear their complaints every single day.

    But yeah, “teh rah rahs” don’t care, sure. 🙂 You know what, I don’t speak for teh rah rahs, 😀 I’m the first one to support LL when they do something right… I don’t think this is right, not without effort to improve the administration of groups in general. It’s not that hard to understand really 🙂

  32. Yikes posting yet again… as I’ve read the comments about griefing issues for open join groups… Yes it would be nice to see the ability for the group owners/officers to manage a type of ‘ban list’ to prevent someone recently kicked from the group from rejoining.

  33. Ishtara Rothschild says:

    Usually I’m against reducing functionality, but in this case I see no legitimate use for hundreds of group notices per day. Groups are not an advertising tool, that’s what classifieds and land descriptions are for. If it helps to reduce database load – why not make it 10 messages per day only?

    Groups should also be excluded from the “All” search, to prevent misuse for advertising purposes. I can see why resident profiles show up in the All search, people might find interesting places through others picks (although that’s also misused for advertising… is there no way to reduce the number of possible alts per person to a sensible number?). Groups however serve no purpose in the All search. People looking to join a group will likely prefer the less chaotic Group search tab anyway.

    Finally, the best way to reduce database load is to have people pay for the database usage, imho.
    The more functionality you allow every free, unverified account, including the hordes of bots and bot-like alts that only exist to fill groups, advertise with their picks, fill camping chairs etc., the more functionality you will eventually have to remove in order to keep this platform running with ever increasing user numbers. But you shouldn’t punish paying customers by removing features. You need to further differentiate the level of service for unverified, verified and premium customers, the same way you did with your customer service.

    An example of how this could work:
    – New, unverified accounts have their inventory limited to 1000 items, have a limited number of new assets (prim objects or clothing) they can create, are unable to upload textures or sounds, unable to sell items or receive L$ payments, unable to join groups and of course have no access to mature land.
    – After either age-verifying or reaching the account status “payment info used”, all these restrictions are removed, but the resident still can’t create new groups and is limited to 8000 inventory items.
    – Premium accounts would have no restrictions, but could be limited to 20,000 inventory items if you add a “gold” or “platin” account level with higher monthly fees and an unlimited inventory. People who need tons of inventory items are usually builders and merchants, able to afford a monthly $20 for example. Premium users should also be able to pay an additional fee for a regular server-side inventory backup, at least of our own creations (with full permissions, to prevent faked ownership).

    It’s just an idea. Groups could also be separated into restricted basic groups and premium groups with full functionality that require a small weekly / monthly fee. Finally, if you allowed (verified or premium) residents to freely pick the title above their name, you’d remove the need for a large number of groups out there.

  34. Ishtara Rothschild says:

    *Regarding the suggested server-side backup service: I mean a backup of only full permission items that were created by the account owner.

  35. R B Darr says:

    What percentage of the existing capacity would be made available by removing both types of excess notices?

  36. Bella Sloane says:

    ADDITIONAL SUGGESTION:
    If the total number of notices in archive is UNDER 200, then NO notices should be deleted at all. Only once the maximum of 200 is reached, should the archive have the oldest notices deleted until the number is once again 200 or less.

    I belong to a couple of groups that post almost nothing except important monthly notices (usually with valuable attachments) which new members highly benefit from retrieving from the archive, rather than forcing Owners and Officers to dig into their own inventories for every new individual that joins.

    Two specific examples: 1.) Shops that offer monthly freebies etc… and 2.) Educational Groups that offer materials (notecarded lessons and/or tools).

    Those that are efficient with their group notices should not suffer the loss of valuable shared information archiving because of those that misuse the function for “chat” or “forum” styled prattle.

  37. Ann Otoole says:

    Pro tip: If you need a group for communication move it into a mailing list model that does not require the SL Group system.

    Leave the group system for what it’s purpose was intended. land management.

    You will be happier and will not have spammers since they can’t send IMs via your system.

  38. hypatia says:

    No Hadley, you get what you put out. You were sarcastic about the group’s theme (ignore the fact that maybe I’m tired of dealing with thousands of people complaining about groups breaking, spammers in chat giving people an error message every time a chat send goes over the channel, etc), then accused me of being one of the whiners who complain about performance (which, I don’t do that on the blogs, never have, always been a big fan of the graphics additions that LL has done with Windlight (though they need to finish it) bigtime into sculpted prim dev, etc.) Plus the fact I’ve been around virtual worlds and large online services for well over a decade, I’ve seen a LOT of shenanigans in my time ;). And you still don’t get that I dont own the group, just one of the worker bees. I couldn’t hire you for it if I wanted to, and well… they have a good scripter so the position is filled. And fact is, I think your idea would be shot down in flames anyway. The users want to do their own notices.

    It’s simple, we just need a little mark in the rules to set how many notices a role with notice rights can send. Easy peasy. You see it in VBulletin and other forum software, to limit searches in a certain length of time, etc. Why not here?

    but sure, dawdle in your sarcastic preconceptions about me, I could care less.

  39. Sigma Lytton says:

    How funny is it that Hypatia has dreamed up a scenario that makes this entire system useless – Her big ‘what-if someone spams!’ is ludicrous. You don’t even want to give the new system a chance before dreaming up an excuse and yelling this is no good! What if someone spams!
    Yea, well what if they dont? Or what if one person does it? Does that mean the entire system serving millions should be shut down?

    How about you give it a chance?

    I’m sure you will pass around you imaginary scenario until you spark the idea in someone to give it a try so you can run back and say SEE! IT HAPPENED! but nevertheless, is it going to kill you to give it a try?

    No one cares how long you have been on the internet, or what groups you run or how powerful you are in your head, or how many Jira issues you have a hand in, honestly. We want better function and if they are making a change – try it out.

    200 messages a day is ONE message appox every 7 minutes – this is absolutely absurd someone is sitting here complaining that this limit is not acceptable, and even more absurd that they are basing that on a griefer what-if scenario.

    I say we try it out.

  40. Ryanne says:

    Yes, I need more clarification about the 200 limit. I have a thriving group that has more then 200 members. Does that mean some of my members will not get my notices?

    Lindens, please respond.

  41. matika Wombat says:

    I think it will affect a small percentage of the population in SL the rule about not going over 200 notices a day. Hopefully, this will fix the error messages we get when sending IM, but what do I know, could be two different things, not against the law to dream ;).
    For everyone else, growing pains will just become part of life, and we all shall be asiumulated into the collective, and life shall go on.
    Now If you all excuse me, am off to regenerate.

  42. 200 a day thats a message every 8 minutes, lmao!

    Great idea, whatever helps the database is good!
    Now if you would just give us an option in the roles to restrict group IMs since the are defenseless against grievers and spammers

  43. S J says:

    I don’t see the problem, you can have notices sent to your email address anyway…

  44. Chrysala Desideri says:

    Many groups would like to see notices last MORE than a month…

    Not to mention that we’d like 5-10 more groups per person (poor DB!).

    200 total in archive is fine, 100 would probably be so as well.

    Ephimeral notices are usually dealt out in IM or mailing list, this 2 week kill will reduce group notices to IM’s with a possible attach.

    Nerf is quite the euphemism, shall we call it castration?

    This isn’t a growing pain, it’s a shrinking spasm!

    I vote for a compromise… volume cap at 200 or 100 or 75 for that matter, but don’t halve the lives of notices!

  45. U M says:

    OMG 14 day? Again proved that they can`t fix anything but instead the scale ( without and improvments ). Its bad enough you trying to do away with Mac support but please eitehr start charging people for the game or just eat the cost yourself…….

  46. Thraxis Epsilon says:

    If your group is doing 200+ notices PER DAY.. It’s time to move your notices to a website and not in SL.

  47. la le lu says:

    WOW! so easy? limit the group notices will make the linden grid more stable? no more database overload? no more login issues? teleports will run as smooth as sim crossing? just by changing the limits of group notices?

    here is another suggestion: restrict logins of users. for example, a user can just login when his/her birth date modulo 7 equals 0. ah! and random inventory losses might also help. or make the inventory a FIFO which will purge the oldest item when a new item comes in. how about that?

    lol

  48. Tan Tantalus says:

    Whilst I agree that the limit to 200 notices a day is good (50 a day would be workable still I think). The removal of notices after only 14 days is not.

    Some notices contain attachments which *need* to be retained for their content so that new members of the group can access them.

    Can not some form of retention option be introduced so that certain notices are kept and others vanish after a much shorter period (i.e. one day for some notices relating to current events and forever for important notices – amendable by group owner of course).

  49. WarKirby Magoijiro says:

    Notices now disappearing after 14 days is horrible. 30 days was short enough as is, and people have wanted permanant notice storage for a while.

  50. Tan Tantalus says:

    Oh I forgot to mention…

    For those who set up groups simply for product updates why not try an alternative means like hippoGROUPS for example? It means your customers do not have to use up a valuable in world group and you have much greater control over the content and retention.

    http://www.hippo-technologies.co.uk/products/hippogroups/index.php

  51. Kahni says:

    I’m guessing the groups that use over 200 messages a day are being used to control bots or something. There’s no way anyone in their right mind would willingly stay in a group that sends that volume of notices.

  52. U M says:

    restrict logins of users? Sorry LL can`t do that because of the companies that rely on freebie accounts that signup on their site. But better yet start charging people for accounts starting June and that will solve problems.

  53. coventina dalgleish says:

    Interesting comments in this blog but I can observe that no one or not many have resided on the operations side of normal email system where the users just fill their mailboxes until they overflow and take down the servers. A group that sends 200 messages per day either has no mastery of expression or just do not care. 200 messages X 135 groups = 27000 messages per day X 7 days = 189000 messages per week X 4.2 weeks per month = 793800 worthless , for the most part , documents that have to be stored and managed. This is a total waste of data management resources. No wonder the data servers struggle when this is only one of the items they have to deal with. There are many more effective methods of mass communication available on the net than the SL group note method. I terminate groups when the level of messages becomes irritating, thats about 2 per hour from any group. It also seems that group IM is a much better way to disseminate information reserving group notices for the truly important subjects.

    It is also apparent that the inventory level of all players represents a large load on the database servers. I, for one, have an overly large inventory but try to keep the trash and lost and lost folders cleaned up when exceeding 20k items. Half of my inventory is made from textures and I am not sure that there is not a better way to manage them as most just sit and wait for a build where required. There must be a better way than having to pay 10L for an upload if they were stored off system. If I have uploaded it one time it would be very sensible to store them on my local HD and have the ability to call them when needed. I am sure that this would reduce the load considerably. The only problem I see here are textures purchased in world.

    The balance of my inventory is three years worth of product that I have designed and built. Again just sitting there taking up valuable resources used only when a vendor fails to deliver. Analyzing inventory anyone should be able to live with a conservative inventory of wearables if off system methods were available.

    This is not a downgrade of services but a restraining a system that has been abused by neglect. Again something people took for granted the unlimited output of data without consideration of what it takes to manage. The increase of users is part of the problem as they all have a slot in the database and every typed word, emote,animation, etc. requires more and more bandwidth to accommodate.

    I still have a hard time comprehending why any group would need 200 group messages per day and 14 days is certainly time enough for anyone who is a regular in the game to read and make a note concerning the subject.

    The game has grown significantly to require good management practices and a responsible user base who take the time to understand the Consequences of their actions or inactions.

  54. U M says:

    ummmmm does kate even know the word “SCALING”? indeed not because yet again scaling will not proved any relief for the Rush of under 18 years olds logging in day in day out…..Indeed that is the reason why they are taking more things away that users need and start giving us things that we don`t need…….School days are almost over and summer is coming fast. And Once again in the History of second life the unknown outcome will result in more downtime and less stability……

    ………….Lets take this time to pay repect for those that dealt withthe after-math of 6/6/06 May all those that gave the hearts and soles for the game…….before this darkage the repect and care for those that gave their Lives and play time on second life to only be threw aside for the next generation of freebie accounts griefts and under 18 years of age By LL………….Pulse………

  55. U M says:

    @53 Indeedpeople do understand…….. but its called scaling…Which inthe past hasnt worked reguardless of what they took away….

  56. Hopeless says:

    Katt
    I would like for someone, perhaps you, to explain what the purpose of your job is? Having worked for several large companies, I know few of them that write policy statements like LL.
    Do you as a communicator have any control over the content that you give out to us?
    It is hard for me to believe that a company that allegedly is making 1.5M a day is having policy meetings after 5pm on a Monday night. I’m not particularly upset by this new policy but once again this message thrown out a few hours after normal business hours are over strikes me as odd. Starting tomorrow, we are going to start killing one of your communications tools. Sorry we told you after normal business hours…..

    Why is it that the messages about the system being down are not open to comment, but silly things like 1/4 of 1% of an obsolete operating system is important enough for a communication? Not to intentionally insult you but what purpose do you serve? Communication is a two way street. What you are delivering is mostly pronouncements.

    Perhaps my timing is poor. I work to play this game. When I come home and want to unwind I would like to be able to log in – or if I can’t at least know the reason why. Unlike most people my work hours rotate and I don’t log on at the same time every day. (Which I am sure could be checked by my access log.) Yet every day for the last week that I have tried to log in SL is down. Rarely if ever do I get blessed with the monkey page telling me that.

    Several of my friends have quit this venue over the past six months. They kept having failures and found other things to do on the weekends and evenings when this system failed. Eventually those things took priority and they decided not to come back. What do we have to do to communicate this message to you and your bosses.

    So far this year I have lost hundreds of real dollars because the servers crapped out. I’ve lost hundreds more when my property was devalued without warning and yet you still collect my island’s tier and my membership cost without fail each month. It’s getting to the point where I feel like a rape victim who doesn’t know whether to let you just get it over with or demand an immediate withdraw. Every single person that I brought into SL over the past year has faced these problems regardless of OS or machine. Yet you communicate none of this. You talk about useless videos, group notices and obsolete operatings systems.

    How about a meaningful blog entry on the state of SL. How about a blog entry where someone will take responsibility for what is wrong here? How about a blog entry where I don’t hear, “That’s not my teams responsibility?”

    I know of very few companies where they don’t put on their check stubs that this paycheck was brought to you by your customers. Obviously no one at Linden Lab believes that anymore because they continue to operate as a bunch of balkanized enclaves.

    You can ignore or delete my message. You can post some other meaningless drivel, but I am one of the saps who is still paying tier. I’m past the anger stage. I’m past the stage where I want to hear how complex the OS is and I’m past the stage where the Tao of Linden seems anything other than an excuse for shoddy workmanship with no one willing to take responsibility.

    So Katt as the communicator Linden, communicate this, many of us are tired. We are tired of the disguised Linden employees calling us whiners. We are tired of the blog posts that don’t contribute to solving problems and cover things up for the newbies. Perhaps you and Torley can present a video to Linden management explaining how your clients feel.

    I’m not sure who Linden Lab reminds me of more. The executives at Enron or Tareq Kaziz telling the Americans how they were going to be beaten in Iraq. Communicate that this is the role you are fashioning for yourselves.

    You are taking advantage of the people who support you. When we finally turn it will not be a pretty sight. The same crafty intelligent people who made the content here can make the content and the problems for you with your competition in the very near future.

  57. U M says:

    I am taking up your blog space again !

    Limiting group notices to 5 per day. yes. for teh winzors

  58. U M says:

    i want those peoples to fixing the grid befores they tries to fix things that isnt borkens. my flush toilet still not working with the poo flying up to the sky.

  59. U M says:

    i am thinking maybe i posting too many replies to the blogs. Everyone should tell me to shut my keyboard so other people can talk now.

  60. U M says:

    but there is still so many blog spots left to use up. We should all taking as many as we can so they makes new blogs about stuff we dont care about instead of bringing back the teckicle blogs to in here so that us can view the problems and make comments here instead of twatter.com

  61. Shai Khalifa says:

    I was a member of a group that used the Notice system A LOT to let members know about their gigs etc.

    I left the group – waaaayyy too many annoying blue boxes on top of all the others I get.

    I don’t think limiting the number will resolve things – people will find a way around limits in order to fit their business practice.

    If that’s how they do business, and they have a large membership of active (not dud members) then their membership obviously don’t mind being Notice-flooded.

    One hint to those with big groups though – clean them out – having the numbers might look good, but makes no sense when half of your members haven’t logged in since mid-2007.

    Much better to have a medium sized membership of active users who log in and interact with you than a huge membership of dud accounts. If all groups kept their memberships current, then maybe all those notices and group IMs wouldn’t be going to heaps of dead accounts – ergo – less server load.

    Better still, maybe LL could kill off accounts that havent’ logged inworld for 12 months – that would help too.

    I agree with cleaning Notices out sooner though. If it’s an important notice that you might want to keep a copy of – put it on a notecard, or store it in a notepad on your harddrive.

  62. OMG, instead of doing this what should do Linden Lab is:

    1: Allow join more groups to people
    2: Give the power to group owners to delete notices
    3: Give the power to owners to ban peple permantly of group
    4: Give the power to owners to mute the group
    5: Improve the chat and announce systems cos lot of messages are lost

    And well now will be fun for the group freebies 😛

  63. coventina dalgleish says:

    U M scaling is a totally different concept than the limitation of massive amounts of worthless data utilized by the players here. Scaling can be construed, as far as this platform is concerned, as the duplication of the base system i.e. the sim system by the addition of multiple server platforms. This scales just fine where the conflict arises is in the support structure for the increased load of data generated by the increase in the basic system and the addition of many new members to the grid. Of course you can continue to add the support equipment required but also in limiting by some means, the post load from groups or individuals. If when you started the game they had these constraints in place, for example a limit on your inventory size or the numbers of group messages sent no one would even notice now. That is 20/20 hindsight though and since there has not been a game of this type there is no history to draw from. While I agree someone might have considered the impact before now I can only hope a lightening of the data servers will have some effect on curing the current ills that plague us. I related the number of documents created to email previously. Most users of email have no concept of the load the storage of old messages imposes on the smooth operation of any system.

    While SL can be scaled the support systems seem to lag behind. I am sure the latest work being done is to increase the ability of the database servers to accommodate the increased load.

    And yes you post too many trivial things here you could have easily said in one slot what you have taken 3 or 4. ))

  64. Insky Jedburgh says:

    I think this is a great change, and not just because it takes the load off the data base. I have had to leave groups because of a continuous prattle of notices by both group admins and uncontrolled group minions given notice ability.

    200 a day seems a bit excessive to me, why not lower it to 100 a day?

    At least being forced to conserve announcements will make group admins exert more control over group notices, and perhaps slow down a few groups that are notice happy.

    There is nothing so important that it needs to be repeated 200 times a day. All that does is make group members deaf to your notices. Or, in my case, leave the group all together.

    Yay LL, finally a change that I really appreciate.

  65. U M says:

    laughs………..ok sure belive what you wish…………….its not scaling taking away data base related space that LL seems to assume that wil help stable the game. Oh the mailing problem is a issue. But the underlingig factor is they just don`t have the IQ to make things work. .HINT!!!!! they vould start charging for avies to solve the problem…….Oh no thats not possible……..yea right

  66. Happi Homewood says:

    I say, limit the number of group messages to 10 per day. More is not needed.

    If I were in a group that sent, on average, more than 1 notice per day, I would leave that group immediately.

    Groups should not be used for spamvertising.

  67. carmichael says:

    great change to make the load on the database less and better for us….i encourage everyone to clean up their inventory,delete what u dont need or give it away…makes live better for all of us…i have like 3,600 items in my 10 months of sl,doesnt seem much but i know each and every item,what it is and what i use it for…it helps keep our database run better and less outages…so if u have 35,000 items and only use 1,500 daily,please start cleaning up a little each day…its so much better having everything sorted in folders and less of it and knowing exactly what and where each item is

  68. I can see good reasons for keeping notices available for a month (but definitely not thousands of them per group). I can see not a single good reason for sending out 200+ (even 50+) notices per day. hypatia, do you *really* think that someone reads all those notices in your group? He wouldn’t even have time left to go shopping for all that advertised stuff.

    @U M: thank you for making your points about scaling. I guess your trolling this blog with lots and lots of entries is meant to show LL that they have to scale the number of possible comments, right? So you can troll even more?

  69. Happi Homewood says:

    @68 danielregenbogen:

    No, hypatia doesn’t think, she *knows* no one is reading all those notices 😉

    @Hypatia, let me call your bluff. You have a business set up to charge money from legitimate business owners, so they can send adverts that no one reads. In the meantime, the rest of SL suffers, because you want to make easy money on hot air. There, I said it 🙂

  70. milissa.rossini says:

    SPAM, some group are excessive to sending notice. And there are many people to use group chat as SPAM too. Very annoying that make me leave all the groups except some very close friend form. Robot avatar send spam notice and IM also very annoying. I support #11 to allow deny group IM too.

  71. Pingback: 200 Group Messages per Day?!? « Sean Heying’s Blog

  72. JB Kraft says:

    FWIW, I think it’s a good plan. I’d leave a group that sent out more then 5 a day too. I’d leave if they sent 2 in a row. The database is under a huge load and this is an excellent way to free up some resources for the benefit of *all* of us. 200 is pure gelatinous spam. While you are at it, you should add the ability to mute groups too. 🙂

  73. Martin Magpie says:

    http://secondthoughts.typepad.com

    I like many others grow weary.

    I have a comment but I won’t waste my breath. Just my time posting the above link in hopes that it starts something bigger than the individual voice.

    Martin Magpie
    Catherine Cotton
    and my other alts.

  74. Actingill Igaly says:

    I’m not sure why hypatia is worried about greifing, any group that sends out 200+ notices a day gets my vote for greifing already (yes i know according to tos its not before you start…) A message every 8 mins or so is a serious waste of time, there cant be ANYBODY in the group who takes notice of them.
    More likely, the huge groups that send out these notices consist almost entirely of dormant accounts. People who came on for a day, joined the group because they often recruit around freebie stores ect. and have never logged on again. If you want to reduce database size and improve performance, how about removing group membership to all groups for anyone that has not been online for 6 months.
    I own a number of groups for various businesses and regularly remove people who haven’t been online for a while. Its no value to me, them, or the guys trying to make the database work….

  75. Silent Hammerer says:

    Two things I want to note on that topic:
    First: Please increase the number of groups one can join! I’m imagining you did not want GNs to be a way of mass communication but they are! Please adapt to reality.
    Second: Please limit the ability to use group chat by role! Its a pain for groups with several hundred members to not be able to block people not knowing what they are doing from spamming them.

  76. Carrie Grant says:

    That’s the ticket, blame more things on us with your new avatar lag-o-meter, hide the many problems away on a secret ‘errors’ page no one can comment on and take away more and more features to empty out your overstuffed databases instead of actually using some of the money you get out of us all to improve the ‘service’ you offer….nah that would require some real commitment…great going SL, you’re looking sadder by the minute

  77. Deeso Saeed says:

    Clearly using group notices as an advertising tools is clearly a misuse of this functionality. But if you still If you want to use this way, why not sending the messages to a moderator and let him/her compile them into a daily digest?. Really, the group members will be as reliefed as the database.

    Also another problem with the asset database is the huge amount of idle data, that is copied every now and them. Do people delete their unused assets?. I would be amazing to have the posibility of having shared inventories as the linden library, like public or group owned, no-modify libraries of textures, sounds, animations, objects… etc. Instead of needing to copy them for each resident that creates things with them.

  78. Dekka Raymaker says:

    I’ve sent two in over a year, does this mean I should send more for your clearance system to work better? 🙂

  79. Indigo Mertel says:

    Katt, I think LL should seriously look into other important issues, such as increasing the max number a resident can subscribe to, being able to change a group name, being able to kill a group.

    While the first option would not help much with db load, the other two could help a bit. How many groups are stored in the db that are not longer used because the founder can’t kill it? How many groups are founded just because a previous group required a name change?

  80. Cero Felisimo says:

    Good move guys. The more steps towards improvement the merrier.

  81. Ann Otoole says:

    i guess the groups database is run on a microsoft access file by some old vb code or something. this has to be separate from the “big database cluster” because your not going to convince me that the small number of records, small in comparison to the rest of the system, is bringing sl down. has to be separate and unrelated to the rest of the system. if not then LL really needs some DBAs or to migrate to a real database like Oracle.

  82. Happi Homewood says:

    @Indigo Mertel,

    As far as I know, a group is disbanded if there are less than 2 members for 2-3 days.

    @Katt: Can we abuse report those 135 groups that are clearly abusing the SL system?

    If it has such a huge impact on db load, why not cut the number of notices down to 10, 25, maybe 50 a day?

    Why not set up a vote, how many notices should be allowed per day?

    I’m sure the majority would have it set to about 10 per day, if it would make there SL experience better.

  83. Happi Homewood says:

    @81 Ann Otoole

    Please read #53 coventina dalgleish entry before speaking like you know everything 😉

  84. nika talaj says:

    I don’t read this policy as limiting the number of notices SENT per day to 200, but limiting the number of notices that a group can have in its history to 200. That is, a group can have in its history notices 2 weeks old up to a max of 200 notices. Please clarify if that’s not correct.

    This will indeed hurt Fashcon. I hope LL had the good sense to work with Honey to suggest and perhaps aid in scaling her valuable service. To scale SL, LL needs to scale more than the platform’s technology: they need to help scale the communities within it.

    If anyone wishes to continue the discussion after comments close, please see this thread in the forums:
    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=257314

  85. T B says:

    I rather keep 30 days or maybe 100 notices, if there’s more than a hundred notices, I’m not scrolling back through them for information.
    This is only text chat how about looking at saving in other places like duplicate landmarks, or delete textures that haven’t been rezzed inworld for over 4 years. How about storing offline people who haven’t logged in for over 12 months, they send you an email to get returned to world.
    Delete/store every unused account that hasn’t logged in world for more than an hour a year.
    Or how about a standard SL texture set for floors and walls that everyone has stored on their harddrive, if people want to use other textures fine, but their sim will run slower depending on their usage.
    Instead we have a texture server full of duplicate “red brick wall” textures that are undecernable to the naked eye in difference.
    We pay an ISP every month to reload the same stuff we downloaded last month.

  86. Sean Heying says:

    @ Nika: “I don’t read this policy as limiting the number of notices SENT per day to 200, but limiting the number of notices that a group can have in its history to 200.”

    Katt says clearly (for her) “Groups will now be limited to 200 notices *per group* each day.”

    So, 200 messages per day for 14 days = 2,800 messages stored.

  87. musha says:

    well lets see how this works. only problem I haz been having as of late is that it takes me up to 5 minutes to rez images in a sim I never really leave and the content dosnt change. (might be my connection but I am hitting 1.2mbit and 312 up so?)

  88. Katt, a suggestion: When announcing policy changes, do so early in the day (or early in your own work-day, whatever your hours might be), and check back within an hour or so to see if any clarification or response is needed. Don’t let a thread hit the 150-response limit without any Linden answers to resident feedback.

    On the topic at hand: It’s reasonable to want some kind of many-to-many mailing list capability in SL. Group IMs are not up to the task, because they are not relayed to email. Using announcements for that purpose is a hack, but hackish solutions like that are what you should expect when you provide a single swiss-army-knife solution to all the different needs that in-world organizations have.

    We need better organizational tools, or an open infrastructure on which to build such tools. In an environment where people are connected irregularly, an hour here and an hour there, asynchronous communications becomes much more important; and yet our most sophisticated communication tool is synchronous chat. We need things similar to email (long asynchronous messages without having to create a notecard or other asset server object), mailing lists and IRC (without all the overhead and baggage that go with Groups), and opt-in feeds like Twitter and RSS.

    (Also, a lot of groups exist for the sole purpose of letting people set their title. If cutting down on the creation of groups would reduce the overhead, the simplest way to do that would be to let people set their titles to whatever they wanted.)

    Is any work going on toward this sort of thing? Does Linden Lab understand that such tools are needed?

  89. Ann Otoole says:

    @83 i’m probably way more knowledgeable in this issue generically speaking than number 53 and your attempt to be disrespectful is wasted. the number of records involved is not sufficient to cause issues in a reasonable database system. SL is a massive system and the number of group notices over 200 for 135 groups is unlikely to be significant at all. apparently theres a tree blocking the view to the forest. there are only 135 groups that have over 200 notices a day.

    unless, of course, the blog is written incorrectly and they meant to say over 200 notices sent to recipients. i.e; if you have a group with 201 members only 200 will get a notice sent in a day and no other notice can be sent in that day for that group. that would be pretty large. and also pretty much kill the need for group notices in general.

    just depends on what the programmers really meant when they told katt to post a blog on it.

    obviously groups are an issue for sl if this tiny problem of 135 or so groups sending over 200 a day is killing sl. if groups are such a problem then limiting to 200 is not enough and they need to drop the limit down to say 5 per day while they reverse engineer the group system and rewrite it to leverage the full potential of this very massive database system that does a lot more than people give it credit for. really.. how many groups need more than 5 notices per day? the suggestion made earlier to migrate group communications out of sl to a website has a lot more merit that a lot of people realize. why a cheap godaddy website can handle a huge load compared to this and doesn’t need to be purged after 14 days.

    kind of interesting this came up after LL created the traffic group and it became rather evident the group is rather unreliable for group IM conversation. thus why I am wondering if theres some sort of miscommunication going on.

    anyway it doesn’t matter what anyone here has to say about it. LL made a call. more power to them. hope it fixes SL.

    PRO TIP: Unless you are personally aware of someone’s credentials your not very wise to treat them like they are stupid. And less wise to assume a female is incapable of technical expertise. Perhaps LL should have hired a female as the new CEO.

  90. Andromeda Quonset says:

    I was thinking that the storage of old notices being 30 days is very low. I think it should be increased to 60 days. There are many times I have needed to look-up a past notice, only to find I’m like 3 days late and it is off the archive.

    Many things in Second Life management, such as land management, are tied to groups, and groups being limited to 25 is inadequate. Also, being unable to set up shared “ownership” on land to more than one group iis higly desirable.

  91. coventina dalgleish says:

    PRO TIP: Unless you are personally aware of someone’s credentials your not very wise to treat them like they are stupid. And less wise to assume a female is incapable of technical expertise.

    very well said

    I can guarantee this system is not running on visual basic

    oh definition: assume ass u me not a word used in the professional circles

    Yes the data load created by the number of group messages can cause this type of a load because many of them contain attachments in fact most I have see do contain another item to be tracked as to the address of the of the message creating even more load on the servers. We all do it there just has to be a better way for groups that have the requirement for a large amount of traffic. I do not know how any one could stand the continual popping of messages unless thats all you do in the game.

    And I am sure Linden Research would relish the addition of qualified and Knowledgeable personnel of the female gender ))

  92. @ hypatia/hadley

    Well Honey’s JIRAs for groups do make a lot of sense, but really they don’t related to this much at all. Fear of that much spamming is what has put me off joining Fashion Consolidated. But you DO pay for it, to get the posting Designer capability, you have to buy their kiosk for L$1,000 and that makes it restricted so they can handle spammers by kicking people. If their designers are willing to spam, shows just how unethical the entire fashionista business is, just like it is in RL lol. So that’s a non-argument and plain whine there.

    Now, I’d agree with Ann: if it’s only 135 groups, then I can’t really see how this will improve things. If it’s doing that much damage, then cut it down to say 300 a month, or ten a day. And that would mean all the continuous spammed events and classifieds that break the posting rules would also have an effect.

    Really this smacks of tinkering because they have no oher clue, or it’s a sop for the plebs. But we’re kind of smart LL, we don’t fall for these spin doctor tricks, been there, seen it, ignored it in real life lol.

    What LL should be doing is paying hard ball with griefers of all sorts and not treating them like some prima donnas. Break the rules, get spanked, pretty simple really. It used to work before everything became namby pamby PC and now look what a mess everything is.

    I agree, 14 days is too short by far, going to mess up a lot of people this summer, especially in Europe and elsewhere where four or five weeks a year vacation is the norm, so the main annual holiday is usually around 3 weeks.

    What next, making retrieving transaction histories 14 days only too? Both should be 60 days at least.

  93. Necessity is the mother of invention so they say, and thus they created Subscribe-o-matic and other similar tools. I personally use them for my magazine distribution and other items i want to give away, because it is enough for my needs. I don’t need to tweak roles, memberships, or manage group chat channels. Those tools simply deliver.

    I suggest that instead of complaining, to use those tools. Or make your own system, I think the metaverse we live in is flexible enough to allow inventions to thrive. Let them do their work in stabilizing the grid and make things better for us.

    After all, we are a creative community, and when the Lindens gives us lemons, we make lemonade..:)

  94. FireFox Bancroft says:

    @ hypatia, if you have users abusing group notices (a feature that should only be given to officers of your group in the first place) then you probably made some bad choices in who gets to join your group. Am I right?

    Conversely you should also consider leaving those groups who have abusive officers.

    Common sense folks.

  95. Dawn Islander says:

    ** I for one fully understand why such limits must be in place, for alot of us recently have noticed increased attacks on the grid by a particular group, i am sure they TRY to overload any and all of SL that they can to makes things bad for us all. Eventually, much like real life, ALOT of restrictions we take for granted now will HAVE to be in place to keep the grid stable DUE TO so many trying to Greif it.
    I would prefer more restrictions on use and my cutomser BE ABLE TO BUY from me again then to keep things as they are now, 9 weeks and only 8 decent days SL works enough for people to shop and spend lindens, MANY stores are suffering, some have gone out of business! i APPLAUD and HOPE this helps stabalize the grid for us ALL~…………../my measly 2 cents worth, ty

  96. Shire Pony says:

    I’m trying very hard to imagine how text messages are being portrayed as a significant load on the grid.

    With the massive bandwidth needed to transfer huge numbers of textures, object parameters, and avatar interactions, can it really be true that group notices and their storage for 31 days are at fault for grid lag?

    I have no doubt that 200 group notices in a given day is excessive, but a group notice is just a few hundred text characters, far less when you consider how incredibly compressible simple text is. Meantime, there are tens of thousands of avatars being fed hundreds and even thousands of chunks of sim data every time they login or teleport.

    Help us understand how group notices are a significant part of grid load Katt, because I for one am baffled by this sudden change. Surely there are far greater targets for load relief, like improvements to the poorly implemented client cache. Please tell us that the Lindens aren’t focusing on trivialities when larger issues remain untouched.

  97. Jessica Hultcrantz says:

    Limit the maximum number of new notices for a single day to 25 (roughly one each hour) That’s more than enhough, but please DON’T CHANGE THE ARCHIVING!

    There is legitimate needs to be able to go back that month. !!!

    Btw… there are other solutions available on the market for high volume groups, but it costs 🙂

  98. 200 notices a day?!
    And there are members in those groups being ok with that amount of spam?

  99. Chalice Yao says:

    @96:

    Let me do the math: 200 notices per day means a notice every. 7. minutes.

    Sending a group notice to all members that rapidly throughout the grid means every time each message needs to be sent to every sim a member is in (remember, people have only one connection to SL, and that’s the current sim), for every single member. For that to happen, database lookups need to be done for every single member’s location and online status, before sending each targetted message that needs to make its way through the routing of the LL network…and those groups probably are the the very, utter opposite of small.

  100. U M says:

    Oh the know-alls are appearing….oh well well nobody specially them are not even that smart…

  101. Chalice Yao says:

    And since U Mi values my input so much, lemme add that since no group probably has its notices evenly distributed over the day, and that they’ve gone -above- that 200 notice limit, it’s save to say that those 135 groups probably spammed notices at shorter intervals during some certain times of the day, probably every 2-3 minutes, each notice of each of those 135 groups taking the described effort above.

    Doesn’t seem like such a small effort on the system’s part anymore, does it? :>

  102. Netgen Ninetails says:

    I’d personally prefer a bigger limit on daily notices and longer archive time. But whatever clears up the database and improves stability is fine by me. I hope this helps keep things from going awry as much as they have been lately.

    I also need to say something, for the sake of humanity: you people scare me. Most people on this comment page seem okay, but a few of you, and most people on the other comments pages, need to understand something. I don’t even care if the Second Life problems are from high prim counts or Linden Labs’ irresponsibility, the fact is that none of it should matter. You’re losing business because of database issues? That rarely happens in real life businesses; maybe you should try starting one. Upset that you can’t spam 200 group notices per day? You can sign up for real-life mailing lists in a matter of minutes, for free. Can’t log in at all? All you have to do to log in to real life is wake up in the morning. Invested money in a buggy, unstable experimental platform and continue to do so despite daily server downtimes, slow, cluttered databases, and laggy connections? …I don’t even need to say anything. That just stupid.

    I agree with you all 100%; this service sucks. That’s why I don’t use it. Maybe you should try doing the same.

  103. cosa nostra says:

    ABOUT GROUP NOTICES
    I agree, and I would lock it to maximum 24 per day, we receive already enough spam through daily mail out-world, then to see it happens here in-world also (one per hr is ok)

    ANOTHER IDEA ……. think the solution for the DATABASES !

    1/ Kick out all the free accounts after 2 weeks (paid membership is the way moving forward …. )
    2/ Kill accounts that are non-active for 2 months

    problem would be solved very fast !

    cosa

  104. Mama Norfolk says:

    Great . But next step could you up the group limit from 25. I am a dj and need to be in alot of groups for clubs I work at and it gets frustrating to have to delete a group and decide which one I should delete to make room for another .

  105. Chalice Yao says:

    ‘ANOTHER IDEA ……. think the solution for the DATABASES !

    1/ Kick out all the free accounts after 2 weeks (paid membership is the way moving forward …. )’

    While this indeed would reduce DB load…alot, ALOT of good, creative, active and happily $L using people would be booted. Remember, #1 reason to get premium is to get mainland. And perhaps better support. All other things, buying things at shops, renting at an estate, making a company, building homes, selling..don’t require that. Sorry. You’d kill off the majority of the SL population instantly. Remember, this is abotu making SL -not- die 😛

  106. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @45: Its bad enough you trying to do away with Mac support

    Where did this come from?

  107. Vic says:

    I totally agree… Kick out accounts that are non-active for… let’s say…
    6 months.
    And make restrictions to having multiple av’s.

    It is highly time to tidy up SL…

  108. Vic says:

    @106

    er… from someone who can’t read ?

    lol

  109. U M says:

    “103 cosa nostra Says:

    May 6th, 2008 at 4:49 AM
    ABOUT GROUP NOTICES
    I agree, and I would lock it to maximum 24 per day, we receive already enough spam through daily mail out-world, then to see it happens here in-world also (one per hr is ok)

    ANOTHER IDEA ……. think the solution for the DATABASES !

    1/ Kick out all the free accounts after 2 weeks (paid membership is the way moving forward …. )
    2/ Kill accounts that are non-active for 2 months

    problem would be solved very fast !

    cosa”

    what about giving the option for free accounts to pay a small fee to continue………freeze all future free accounts…..and until say June 1sr on after 14 days charge a pay to play. If commerical islands are so worried about not having people vist their locations in rl let them support tthem by giving them a free 6 months or 1 year members ship spouncers by tthe commerical Island either by having them add their personal information online on THEIR web site. Or Haven them mail in a ticket with their name address and accress code so they can login second Life. Why hasnt LL even thought about this concept? It would work. Information online would exist commerical Island would get their products looked at on SL and rl. All is happy……

  110. U M says:

    106 Sedary Raymaker Says:

    May 6th, 2008 at 5:04 AM
    @45: Its bad enough you trying to do away with Mac support

    Where did this come from?

    Read this…………
    http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/05/05/working-on-the-right-things-considering-os-x-panther-support/

    enough said

  111. Vic says:

    This blog is about Mac Panther osx.
    Not Mac in general.

    Enough said, you’re right…

  112. U M says:

    did you even bother reading what people are saying in it? ………well never mind……..

  113. Anafae says:

    I am a member of Fashion Consolidated Group. The people who CHOOSE to join does so freely and are not made up of bots or dormant accounts. Fashion Consolidated provides a service to all of us. Due to SL limit of 25 groups we are not able to join all the update groups we would like to, there for I was thrilled to find Fashion Consolidated cause a good deal of the groups I would of liked to join was apart of this group and I am able to get there updates with only being apart of one group. Yes it’s a lot of notices per day but for the ones who joins it we feel it is worth it.

    There is other reasons a group sends out many notices as well cross promotion groups for clubs, I myself am a owner of a club and I belong to 2 groups that were created for the purpose of allowing there members after a screening to make sure you have a legit club, mall to advertise with there notices.

    I am not saying that excessive notices don’t lag the system I am merely pointing out why some groups have so many notices going out in them per day. I am the first to see the need for change, but I have yet to really see any good changes that has came our way in the last month and a half. Due to SL changes I can no longer use the SL Viewer and have had to go to an alternative browser that does not support windlight thank goodness there is one out there. I just wounder where all these changes are going to take us, cause the way I am seeing it pretty soon only people with top of the line computers will be able to use SL and those of us that can not aford new ones will no longer be able to use SL at all. So while some changes are good and well, I wish that SL would really take a look at all there members and what they need instead of only concentrating on the best of graphics for people with high tech computers think of us as a whole and concentrate on things that does need fix.

  114. Vic says:

    People ????

    What is important here, I think, is that LL is planning to stop giving support to Mac Panther ? Am I right ??

    Well, what do people say… let me check…
    They are quite ok with the idea, it seems, even Mac users, of which I am, btw…
    Ooooooohh yes, yes, you’re right,
    There are the one who open their mouth and whine about Windows XP

    Lollllll

  115. Marx Dudek says:

    With all this cleared space, does this mean we can have more groups, now? Or will I have to continue to turn down requests?

  116. U M says:

    113 Anafae,

    A increase in groups is what many do want. But instead LL ingores what people wants and gives us things what we don`t want. and takes away things what is needed.

  117. Vic says:

    do we really need to receive 200 notices from a group per day ???
    I doubt it…

  118. Vic says:

    er….. sorry….
    200 X 25, actually…
    that is 5000.

    No, I don’t think we need this

  119. Moe Lovenkraft says:

    @113 Anafae
    Regarding Windlight requiering a more powerful computer.
    I don’t know if this will help but try disabeling ‘Atmospheric Shaders’.

  120. Jen Shikami says:

    Right, what Anafae said. Fashion Consolidated is a good example. It has grown to 7,000 members who are, yes, entirely willing to receive potentially hundreds of notices a day for a variety of reasons. They are voting for those improvements listed in the JIRA, too. But the point is, they do exist, and they do have a legitimate reason to want to do this _inside_ of SL.

    So all this sarcastic “Maybe you just aren’t managing your group right!” is a little misplaced. How would you manage a large group, given that the group’s team of moderators can’t permanently ban anyone who insists on yammering in group chat to 7,000 people? C’mon.

    I think it’s reasonable to ask in a group-notice-relevant blog entry why JIRA entries with hundreds of votes that are almost a year old have had no substantive response from LL.

  121. Ann Otoole says:

    EPIC FAIL: Group notices are now delivered to your account even though you have opted to not receive group notices.

    Smooth Move.

  122. U M says:

    Oh isnt that wonderful Ann, Now isnt that a perfect ending to a perfect start :/

  123. Cincia Singh says:

    FashCon DOES need to look at managing their notices better. I’ve been receiving their notices from their inceptions and as the group grows it’s been getting more and more ponderous. Some management is in order for sure. I don’t see a problem with a 200 notice limit … FFS that’s more than enough, no one promised ANYONE unlimited server space just because “they” feel they have a right.

  124. U M says:

    7243 members in the FashCon group! OMG Nowonder there are so many people crying in that group……As Cincia said they need to manage the group better.

  125. Kat Klaybourne says:

    Good heavens! 200 notices?!?!?! I am an active networker, here and in SL. And I just left a group because they were sending 10 notices a day. Have not these people heard of blogs or forums? I don’t think groups were ever intended to hold that much content. Now I can understand whey we can only have 25 groups we can belong to!

    Good work, Lindens!

  126. Jambalaya Fonck says:

    I don’t know this for sure, but I suspect this will impact the live music groups as well. It’s not uncommon for several messages to be sent out on the hour in these groups, as shows are about to begin.

    I can see how this could be a problem for LL, but capping group messages leaves a need that is not readily fulfilled otherwise.

  127. Jambalaya Fonck says:

    I should add that, in the case of these show notices, archiving is (probably) really unnecessary, as the messages are not really useful after the show is over.

  128. Chalice Yao says:

    7243 members? Ow. Holy ow.

    If i’m right, that’s probably 14486 db lookups minimum per notice, 7k messages being sent to sims and/or email per notice.

    If the group only sends 50 notices a day, That makes for
    350000 messages being sent though the system one way or the other.
    724300 DB lookups min
    for 72MB of sent data in total if each message has 100 characters (It’s unicode)

    For one group, daily. Please get a mailing list set up?

  129. U M says:

    @127 have a delay to expire if they are live events. If they event starts may 10, at 7pm to 10pm PST set the noticed to expire and delete fromthe data base. That will solve that problem. I think the tech people are start enought to set upt he system in the manner.

  130. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @110: enough said

    Thank you for correcting your statement, U M.

  131. Darek Deluca says:

    Why don’t you concentrate on a ways of controlling inventory! When you allow all users unlimited inventory and many have 10s of thousands of items. No wonder you have a asset server and database issues. Any free account can accumulate any amount of inventory (and does). I find historical group notices very useful!

  132. U M says:

    131 because people would stay around long enought to camp for money and pch the numbers higher to afford to buy things ( which must don`t do anyways ). If free account were limited to x number of inventory objects and most are no transfer why whould they bother even playing.

    Have you seen what disney has done with toon town? They allow users to walking throught the game but are not allowing to do 80% of teh things that makes the game useable. What LL needs to do is freeze free accounts that stand now and start putting the respounciblty at the commerical islands foot since 80% of them are gettign access portals inthat matter. Or just put a tax on those commerical island the exceed x-limit of signups…..

  133. Master Quatro says:

    Sorry if I’ve skipped reading all 132 previous posts on this subject. I’d much rather have a very limited # of notices/day (much less then 200) and definitely clean the whole system up by keeping history no later then 2 weeks. If we can get faster and more reliable server response for all messaging this would be little if any price to pay.

    Thank you

  134. Alvi Halderman says:

    200notices per day are…..1 notice each 6 minutes!!
    I would leave inmediately that group!!
    LOL

  135. Pingback: Grupos: Novas Regras «

  136. Wow! Some groups sent *that* many? I belong to only one group that close …***not*** … mabye 30 notices tops. Another change that would be helpful (and maybe reduce database load) is the ability for group owners or officers to turn off group IM.

  137. Vic says:

    Setting restrictions to the number of group notices seems to be a good idea, imho. And 200 per day seems to be quite fair.
    It is time to set limitations like this one, to improve residents’ life, and playabiliyt in general.
    Inventories are much more important than group notices… as long as we pay for what is in our inv’, I think that limiting the items number would badly lessen the number or transactions, and economics in general.
    Now, for those who use group notices for advertizing, too bad.
    I am sure they are smart enough to find another way to communicate.

  138. Cincia Singh says:

    I don’t see this impacting any group tremendously, not even Fashcon or the Musician’s groups. Think about it .. who is going to surf through more than 200 notices looking for something and of what use is a notice of a sale or performance from 2 weeks ago? When was the last time you needed to review a Notice from more than 14 days ago? If the information in the Notice is THAT important, just copy and paste it into a Notecard and keep it for yourself. no need to save ancient history just to clog a server with old Notices. I think this is all “much ado about nothing” and LL is making a reasonable change. And I’m sure there are many more like it on the horizon because infinite “scaling” a) costs lots of money and b) can only accomplish so much before it collapses under its own weight.

  139. U M says:

    136 some of those fashion info mailers can send out 100 a week easy. I didnt login for 3 days and i got over 300 mails waiting for me.. Now tell me what is better having more groups of getting rid of those bluk mailing signup groups?!

  140. Cincia Singh says:

    And yes … “turn off group IM” added to the options for Groups would be a great enhancement.

  141. U M says:

    As i said before not all group notices get seen in login…….why even botehr with 30 day? have a time limit and then let them dlete themselves after ex period of time having the time sent bu the sender………..

  142. Alexan Rosca says:

    The less they know, the more they rant…

    Personally I have a software engineering degree and decades of experience with large scale databases, and I’m always amazed that something as colossal as SL ever works at all! Consider the appalling problems and delays associated with “Home” for the Playstation 3 – which will be no more advanced than a version of Habbo Hotel with SL graphics – despite all of the immense wealth and expertise of Sony backing it.

    I’m not denying that SL has plenty of issues, but a lot of the time it actually works OK. It is a truly unique achievement. Frankly it makes what little competition exists appear to be Medieval by comparison.

  143. Chrysala Desideri says:

    I’m in world culling inventory now to do my part.

    i’m amazed at the number of shortsightd posters who thinks what THEY use group messages for is the end*-all of their possible usage.

    we’ll work around the new limits at the cost of….

    tons more in world scripted objects to take care of things once distributed via notices

    DB load made better?

    no expert here but i suspect that that move will make it worse…

  144. Crighton Johin says:

    @ Hypatia…..Not just anyone can send group notices in FashCon. Only the creators, etc can, so spam is not an issue in regards to group notices. I have to give props to FashCon as they do a great job with educating their members on group IM spam. One of my alts subscribes to FashCon and I have to admit, as much as I like the information and the freebies, it’s just too much. It’s only a matter of time before I cut it loose. And as many notices as they send out, do they even reach 200?

    @ Hadley….grow up. Just because you think something is stupid does not make it so. It makes you look immature, and I’m guessing that look is accurate.

    This sounds like a reasonable change to me. I approve. 😉

  145. U M says:

    “Personally I have a software engineering degree and decades of experience with large scale databases, ”

    but its not about scaling is it? as someone tried to point out…… ( but really it is about scaling the database…..)

  146. Chrysala Desideri says:

    sorry for 2x post, but also, 90% are concentrating on the per-diem limit posting here

    it’s the lifespan or lack thereof that’s the problem… i’m quite sure no one reads 200 notices a day, as has been said, drop it to 50 but don’t make them fly by night!!!!!!

  147. Cincia Singh says:

    /me agrees with Alexa … SL actually works well considering its size and complexity … and it’s going to get better as LL institutes practical limits like this … YAY I love my SL

  148. U M says:

    well for how long cincia? thats the questen

  149. Ric Mollor says:

    Somebody help me if I’m missing something here.

    Linden Lab is considering dropping support for an older version of the Mac operating system. The proposed change affects a very small (perhaps under 1,000) number of users.

    A blog notice is posted requesting feedback on the issue. It appears that LL is actually caring for it’s customers by listening.

    A *large* change it the way group notices are handled is revealed less than 4 hours then it is put into effect. This change affects *all* of the customers. There is no prior discussion. No prior notice that such a move is being considered. No discussion of alternatives.

    And the users of Second Life are supposed to believe that their opinion, as paying customers, is being taken seriously?

    No wonder that so many are upset!

  150. U M says:

    149 true! thank you for pointing it out

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