‘Inside the Lab’ podcast with the WindLight Team!

Podcast (mp3)

Text transcript

The third edition of our ‘Inside the Lab’ podcast series is now available! The series started with Philip Linden’s vision for Second Life in 2008, and continued with Joe Miller’s insight into the engineering team at Linden. This time Melissa Linden sits down with the development team behind WindLight, the atmospheric rendering system in Second Life’s latest viewer. Melissa discusses a number of topics with us, including:

  • What WindLight can really do for the resident experience (Hear our very own Torley Linden give a very spirited rundown of his favorite new features!!)
  • How optimized the new viewer is for older graphics cards
  • The extra features and stability enhancements in our latest code
  • Our thoughts about the future of the viewer (especially graphics) in Second Life
We’re excited to bring you this informal look into the people, projects, and culture at Linden Lab. Enjoy!
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    112 Responses to ‘Inside the Lab’ podcast with the WindLight Team!

    1. Ric Mollor says:

      ———–Quoted text————-
      The extra features and stability enhancements in our latest code
      ————————————-

      This will certainly generate more than a few comments! :^)

    2. Pastrami Linden says:

      @1 🙂 Well, we *do* try to communicate that there are just as many, if not more, stability improvements as features in these viewers. An uphill battle? Perhaps 😉

    3. Avalon Asturias says:

      Stability? If you call 45 crashes in 4 hours stability, then what do you call instability? 0.0…lets me not forget to mention transactions continue to fail, teleports only work have the time, attachments won’t attach, and now we have to deal with profiles and groups not loading properly for several hours each day. Windlight is pretty but so far I would rather have the old viewers back and everything working. People’s businesses are getting hit hard because of all of the crashing, down time, and transaction failures.

    4. as far as im concerned the new client is a big improvement. again, the viewer team cant be made responsible for the messup of someone else.

    5. Pastrami Linden says:

      @3 I understand your concerns. However, please realize that our team is not involved in that aspect of the product. Our work on WL in no way comes at the expense of other work- we’re viewer and engine developers, not backend. It is the responsibility of each team to push forward their piece of the pie. Server and network ops teams are experiencing unheard of challenges with our growing concurrency right now, and are making sure we can scale. We are blessed in that sense- we only deal with the pixels on *your* screen 😉 However, with Havok4 and other improvements, everyone’s working as hard as possible to make the experience is a good one- from soup to nuts.

    6. Seven Shikami says:

      @3, to be fair, almost none of those problems are WindLight’s fault. Now, its ability to lock dead for a minute at a time if I move the camera after it’s been parked for a half hour? THAT I can put squarely on it, but frankly, that’s minor.

      The transaction server failures have caused nothing but hell for my fishing game… my IMs cap out every single day from people requesting deliveries of undelivered items due to stale transactions.

      Yay for the WindLight team! BIG FAT BOO for the software engineers and their unscaling system of doom that turns SL into a minefield for half the day, every day, for the last two weeks. I refuse to start any new projects until things stabilize — why should I bother giving myself more headaches and helping Linden Lab(tm) make money when they’re screwing up this badly?

    7. Sweet distraction from the negativity posts, how about re-enabling the the profiles again for real and not just as a pretentious statement!

    8. Cape Weary says:

      I was laughing about it being more stable too. I cant even log in to windlight anymore so I used the standard browser yesterday and today only to find that profiles, groups and transactions have been intermittent. Despite the post saying that at 4pm profiles were back online, everyone I have talked to still can’t seem to get them to load. I appreciate the hard work the Lindens do, and I truly looooove the windlight viewer. I just wish little things would work!

    9. DB says:

      Stop blogging your praises and fix your infrastructure. If our company’s IT department ran things like this we’d have all been outsourced a long time ago.

      Put down the new flashy client that nobody wants and fix your issues already! It can’t take *this* long to get new hardware in the door.

    10. Well I just saw a bit reference in grapahics about skins. Skins still don’t look good and they can change a lot with ugly shadows depends wich configuration os the land or wich configuration u did. I don’t know why there isn’t an option to put a light (like in the SL of ever) that satures the avatar eliminating all the shadows.

      Yes land scapes and buildings now looks amazing, glow is also amazing, but the avatars are loosing quality, and not mention all the designers that works hard in cloth and skin shadows to make them more realistic, now designers are loosing the power of control of their products and I think this is a big problem in terms of design and I mean design a program.

      I should remember SL is social and lot of people is more interested in configure their avatars than see land scapes. Cos another big problem is that even u expend hours configuring a good set up, there are people that still uses the normal SL, and they use lights, this means that u see all the people burnt if u are using Windlight and others no.

      And to finalize, I suppose Linden Lab knows that currently there are lot of cloth business that offers products, then how designers can assure their products will see like the ads they placed? If a person has a different setup with a very green light and u are selling a pale skin, the customer will see the skin green and then maybe will reclaim the designer that the product is not like the ad.

      I see some big design problems, How linden will face this? Or they just don’t care?
      I think WL should be optional or implement a system to make the avatars look like always, other way is just create lot of problems to lot of people.

    11. Natsumi Yue says:

      Does windlight have to update the look of the sky so often? On my Mac it makes the client almost unusable. Could you add a feature that lets us change how often it refreshes the sky?

      Nat.

    12. Hanah Villota says:

      maybe I missed it but is there a way to take advantage of the stability features of the new viewer while disabling Windlight. My opinion is the windlight looks terrible and I do have a excellent new graphics card. Can it be disabled or do I have to revert back to the old viewer?

    13. coventina dalgleish says:

      This is off topic but since there are no open subjects to use you get it.

      The selective turn off of certain items during peak hours is doing nothing but creating problems today it has forced gray profiles and the inability to communicate on IM. Product delivery has been interrupted and with out the ability to call a profile and hand drop merchandise you idiots are now shutting down the commerce. Please pass this word along to those responsible stop playing with the game leave it alone at least when you did not play like god it almost worked now it is a JOKE.

      Oh and the new systems do seem to work better but all the diddling has now layered more BS into enjoyment

    14. Moose Maine says:

      With regards to DB, I’ve worked in a number of IT shops, and have brought in tons of new hardware in the door. From initial loads, patches, initial backup’s, more patches, ad syncs, cluster load balancing, this all takes intense effort and concentration. Add to that the vision of the Lindens and you’ve got one very tough balancing act. Your either part of the problem (complaining of problems their well aware of ), or part of the solution (suggesting pratical solutions) to an ever expanding system. I for one commend the ALL the Linden teams for all the nights of no sleep while keeping a sense of humor. Bravo!

    15. Karlsven Skall says:

      In all my time on SL i have never posted negitively on these blogs. Because, there have been issues in the past,but was nothing that i could not wait for to be fixed. That being said..THIS NEW VIEWER is driving me mad. If i stand still and max out my settigns it looks beautiful. However, when i reset them back to low and move around it reminds me of the days when i tried to run SL on intergrated graphics..Since this new viewer i have purchaced crossfire ati HD2600. I have 2 grapics cards into one screen. My FPS is 45 in mouse look and slighlty less out of mouse look. Bandwidth in empty sims reads 0. So can you tell me what the hell is up with the jerky movements? My system requirments far exceed the SL requirments. My cards are supported. so i am clueless as to what is going on here. Every few steps is screen freeze. And “Lag-o-Meter” reads green across the board..My Wife and I have 5 sims on SL, and we have both been so miseriable with the screen freeze issues, we cannot stand to play now.:( To be honest i have no idea what i can buy to make this jerky/screen freeze go away.tried everything from setting card settings to preformance and settign SL to lowest settings, and the screen freeze presists. So if there is advice to us non techy people, please do tell. Oh yes scuplts not loading also.. that could be inventory sever idk, But is driving me mad..Please help..TY

    16. Shai Khalifa says:

      Do you really have ANY idea what imposing 1.19 on EVERYone has done???

      On top of all the crap that’s happened lately – I was ok with working around things and suffering the freezes and crashes…

      But forcing me to use a viewer that does not work for me when I have outstanding Jira and support tickets detailing issues that go back to early December – has forced me to reconsider my presence in SL at all.

      … and I’m not alone it seems

      Turning off support for earlier viewers that were used by residents in order to accommodate platform and network issues was THE WORST IDEA YOU GUYS HAVE HAD IN YEARS.

      This last weekend has proved to be the final straw for so many of the people I know.

      And if it wasn’t for my friends, would have been for me too – and may still prove to be.

      I agree with others who’ve spoken here – GET OUT OF YOUR OWN STUPID EGOS. Your inhouse slap-each-other-on-the-back, hippy attitude does not go down well with residents who are paying a lot of money to pay your wages so that you can play with pet projects.

      Address some of the support tickets properly instead of closing them because they’re maybe a bit hard – admit when you make mistakes and let people know what you’re going to do to remedy them…talk to people.

      This is a blog, turning off comments in critically borked times only gets people’s backs up. GEEZE when will you get this through the blinkered heads of LL staff and management.

    17. Robin Randwick says:

      Try disabling atmospheric shading for better av lighting. May not help how others see you, but you’ll like the look better. BTW, I’m on a Mac, so if that doesn’t also apply to the PC client, I apologize.

    18. Erinyse Plane says:

      I have to agree. even allot of the peopel taht tested rc4 told you EXPLICITLY that 1.19.4 was NOT ready for widepsread release pastrami. my alt was one of them. my friend was a second. yes it is more stable for some, but half your suppsoedly supported graphics cards CANNOT run windlight. Ironically, my older, barely supported geforce4 integrated card does better then any othe others in my hosue. and duel and multi cores get damaged becuase your viewer wont support them correctly and causes them to spin up to 100% and stay that way. EVEN IF SL IS THE ONLY NON SYTEM PROCESS RUNNING.
      furthermore, 1.19.4 does NOT fully disable windlight, as you claim. it only disables key features of windlight. (see variosu jira psotings.)
      learn to lsiten to your people, and lsoe the attitude of: well people jsut need to update. we cant all afford it, and soem of us are tired of it.

    19. Lozlo Peng says:

      ugh, go away Wind Light

    20. Shai Khalifa says:

      One more thing…. I can’t afford to update my 18-month-old MacBook Pro – because It costs me 400USD a month to use SL – and I’m no longer getting sufficient income from my sims to get anywhere near meeting that cost…

      So decision – pay LL for a faulty product – or upgrade my puter – or pull out of SL completely – and stay with my perfectly usable, quite powerful puter???

      hmmmm?

    21. ac14 hutson says:

      @ 11 its probabaly your hard drive. if you have a slow hard drive. every time it gets a texture from the catch it will lock sl while it looks for it. try defragmenting.reformatting. or getting a new hard drive. it could also be that your using ATI. i had an ATI card and it tended to do that also.

      i like windlight. they sky looks better. the water looks better. idk what you pepoel are talking about it messing up avatars, they look fine to me. go WL team

    22. Vivienne says:

      “And stuff now runs – I think there is still one issue with one of the latest Mac
      Book Pros. But stuff runs on Apple pretty well now because they were
      really good at talking to us.”

      Oh, really? Please Pastrami, explain:

      I have a 50% performance loss on MINIMUM (no shaders!) settings in 1.19.1 compared to the 1.18-v Ncholaz viewer on MAX settings.

      I run a very average Mac model, one of the later IBM G5 double processor models, run MacOS Tiger 4.11, have an ATO Radeon 9800 and enough RAM for SL. My system does not EXACTLY match the recommended GPU specs, but an ATi 9800 should do at least fine, and it DOES with 1.18 nicholaz.

      But it does not run fine. I am about to quit SL instead.

      So. What did you talk about? The weather?

      And one more serious question: Will a nvidia 7800 GS, flashed for an AGP MAC, revise my decision to leave SL as soon as the Nicholaz viewer breaks?

    23. NotHappy says:

      I cannot believe that Windlight was crammed down our throats, escpecially with them knowing that the backend couldn’t handle it.

      Most people here do not have the high end alienware type computers, and windlight has decreased performance to a horrible level. Not everyone can afford the high end computers. With that said, you are alienating a large part of the SL population. Thus, losing money.

      That’s just not smart. Any way you cut it. Windlight should be an option, not an enforced viewer.

    24. Michael Timeless says:

      What does it take to make a point here? People are paying tier for lands they cannot use. While myself and the other 4k people who could log in this weekend enjoyed playing with ourselves while no one else could log in this is not the point of a social network.
      I can’t understand the attitude of, “that’s someone else’s problem.”
      Everyday I go to work at a company where the IT department is something we depend on. If we had a problem where 45k users couldn’t access the systems, every data processing manager and tech would be here working. We wouldn’t have one group telling the world how their project was fine, when no one else could use the system.
      I’m passed the point of being upset. Eventually someone (perhaps openspace) will get there system working and then what?

      Let me make one more point.
      IBM is a fine company but in the last 80s they insisted that microchannel architecture and OS/2 were the way to go. They alienated the market they helped to create (PCs) and they never recovered from that marketing error. Compaq and a slew of other companies took their “less pretty” architecture and put IBM out of the business. IBM despite it’s name is today primarily a software and consulting firm.

      Linden Lab, those who don’t study history are doomed to repeat it.

      I’m not quitting today. But I haven’t been willing to build for three weeks. That’s three weeks of spending money to do nothing. Many other people are in the same boat. Do you think they will continue to pay tier for being able to do nothing for long?

      When your corporate sponsors come out from behind their firewalls they may find a world empty of the griefers they fear and the population they hoped to sell to.
      On the other hand they may find a very hostile population that targets them out of frustration because they can’t reach you.

      Food for thought.
      ear hearty

    25. All I ever want to know is what use this “feature mask” called CPUSlow is supposed to solve. Ever since I noticed that in the log filers after getting curious enough of why SL was killing my FPS yet only took up 5% CPU time whenever I pulled up a UI window, I’ve been asking around. Now I have a lonely little support ticket on this. It has sat there for a few days, so I suppose I am asking the wrong place if more than a week passes. And now, I am crashing every time I use any part of the UI that is a big window.

      WL is freaking awesome, I was even able to use it on a constant basis for a while. Now? I can barely manage Basic Shaders. My choice is either get a better machine, or wait. Frankly, I don’t much like either option.

      Apologies for the banter in what is likely a wrong venue to express such. But I just had to put it somewhere…

      /rant

    26. Whats wrong with avatars?, well whats wrong if that if u don’t expend hours making light set ups ur newbie skin will look exactly the same as ur new 2000L skin u bought, to not say that u can have a pale-gothic avatar, enter a sim with a strange light and see ur avatar black or any other color. Let’s say I wanna do a gothic portrait, I set up an aming red light with red clouds, whats the problem, my avatar is not white, is red.

    27. Hiro says:

      “How soon” will we get a server side settings for these windlight environmental settings?

      I want to create a beautiful tropical island! XD

    28. Aaron J. Freeman says:

      I’m wondering why we should attempt the learning curve of Jira, if we’re to be ignored. Older cards, which are older because they can’t be upgraded, don’t support Windlight, and alternative viewers are becoming a new part of the SL economy. Windlight should be a selectable option, rather than deselectable, and would be quite popular in that fashion. Builders should even have a keystroke, to turn Windlight on and off, so as to see with the eyes of Those Other People.
      Personally, I’d like an option, to down load textures only for chosen objects, but I don’t know whether my taste is overly exotic. Windlight was shoved through because of a corporate acquisition, and had to satisfy somebody’s vanity, rather than anybody thinking to make it optional. H4 was shoved through on the same week, because CSI was running a target event, and still suffers a bit of prematurity, and I recall it was about the time that the bottom fell out of the Servants of Aset.
      When you come up with such new features, don’t just make them optional, as they need to be, charge extra, and they’ll be really popular. When Linden Labs gets the business manager it needs, he better be someone who likes to make enemies, and is able to charge extra for it.

    29. I could see water and use more advanced graphics settings before the Windlight release – now all water is black and any attempt to advance my graphics settings immediately crashes SL. Unfortunately, ATI does not provide updates for laptop video drivers, only through the manufacturer and ACER is not providing updated drivers – if indeed there are any to had (it is impossible to tell).

      Also, why was this released before providing server-side settings?? While Windlight certainly has pretty skies and water, it light interiors of builds as though there were outside and plants that aren’t Linden plants (i.e. flexi-prim sprites) can have a shadow running up the middle of them that wasn’t there before. I always need to customize the settings to optimize and know that others won’t have this optimization.

      As a sim-owner, I have lost control of lighting for my sim. At least before you could set the region default or at worst there was only 3 other lighting setting visitors might be on. Now, all visitors to my sim will see it in a light that does not show it as well as it could be shown.

    30. Ivantwin Rogers says:

      I understand the Windlight have some extreme problems with a lighting, shadows, brightness i think Linden labs needed fix that but that is a slow process , the problems with lights in the avatar is they looks to jerky and the color are ugly. i love windlight and its imperative they need make a restructurability in all shadows and lightings and brightness are to high

    31. Lina Pussycat says:

      Windlights Lighting is fine if you actually adjust the lighting settings. Some of the defaults are bad i admit but they are easily adjustable to a level that works well if you just have a fiddle. I have a sky setting i love that i made and would gladly share it with others :). Also while sim settings arnt there it will happen.

      @28 you still can use most of the basic things there were there before you just need to do custom settings and have a fiddle….. Also lighting has always lit everything evenly this isnt even that much of an argument at some settings these are bound to be adversely off but if you play the lighting isnt a problem while having the sky look great!!! I have a lighting setup that is very close to the setup of how SL looked before and the sky is awesome. Feel free to ask me for pics in world…

      Also if you listened to the podcast or read the transcript or went to certain windligjht office hours (i went to one and this was discussed there) the shadow concept. They plan to counter act that lighting with some shadowing at some point it may not happen right away as stability client side is their main focus atm but its quite possible!

    32. Ivantwin Rogers says:

      Lina Pussycat Says:
      April 7th, 2008 at 7:36 PM

      Windlights Lighting is fine if you actually adjust the lighting settings. Some of the defaults are bad i admit but they are easily adjustable to a level that works well if you just have a fiddle. I have a sky setting i love that i made and would gladly share it with others :). Also while sim settings arnt there it will happen.

      YOU’RE ARE WRONG GINA, Linden Labs needed fix the shadows and lightings and brigtness in DEFAULT MODE! Because all people see to yours and when yours make the modification in the default mode that is only for yours!

      Changing the avatar is just for you and that is a deceive yourself . the other people don’t see yours fine settings , Linden labs need fix the horrible problems in DEFAULT

    33. @30 Line the problem is that should set up, u should expend time and think about the new residents that are very lost alredy with the unintuitive design of Second Life.

      I did set ups like the normal viwer, the problem is that I only see me and that is always a suny day, the other problem is that the people tdont use WL they have lights and I see them burnt and they also don’t see me well cos I haven’t light.

      The problem is that linden lab seems that is forgetting that SL is social and people like see their avatar and the others nice and speak between them?

      And whats the mening expending lindens in buying cloth if btw people wont see u like u see urself at the screen?

      I think when a person buy cloth in RL is to have an style and to show the people, and there are a lot of this people in SL, now with WL hasnt lot of meaning.

    34. @30 – fiddling with the settings crashes my ACER PC every time. I am stuck with black water and no clouds – believe me, i have tried. I have read the transcript – sure sunsets and skies and water look great but there is much more to SL than pretty pictures in Flickr. It is 2 steps forward and one step back – in some cases 3 steps back.

      I know that lighting in the old client spreads light out evenly but now you get much more defined shadows on walls that were not noticeable before and which really impact the look of a room – especially when you are using textures with shadows baked into them. It can destroy a carefully designed look.

      Given their track record re: rolling outserver-side settings, I am not overly confident of LL claims about the future pace of releases and, for a company that claims it is primarily a hosting business, am a disappointed hosting customer. (Although it is hard to imagine the fundamental issue preventing the storing of those values in a region-level database table(s))

    35. Prefer Default SL client best says:

      I hope there will be always *TWO* clients. One is for Windlight client and other one is default SL client. I rather to use default sl client. I prefer that way, I LOVE it. I do not want to use Windlight client. Some people prefer to use WL client. Otherwise, if you force us to download Windlight client. Half of people will leave for good which I have heard that..their words are keep. Half of people’s business will be close and so on. Don’t take a risk. Give us a choice. Just two clients of choice, that’s all. I don’t want WL with default option. I tried. It looks very weird, I went back to default SL client. I love it, still do.

      Good day

    36. kath McGill says:

      im still crashing about 20 seconds after logging in, It says the region has begun the log out process, but there is no indication that the location went down, AND my computer keeps telling me that SL is a virus that its trying to access my computer.
      Everything was crash free for the most part with the prior version,

      this has been ongoing since the update was made avalable.

      its a known issue, Exactly HOW many crash loggers do you want so you can fix the problem anyway?
      thank you

    37. Torian says:

      Just look at the Windlight picture posted at the top of this blog…sky is washed out, avatars are deeply shaded, grey and have to much contrast. Now tell me Windlight looks better……… and no, shutting off atmospheric shaders DOES NOT make it the same as the model used in the old client. It still suffers from the bad overall lighting and that orange sunset is just plain yucky.
      Anyone who sells over the internet knows that the greatest challenge is to get colored photos of your products to look as consistent as possible across all platforms. This is how the client should work too. Everyone should have the same overall settings. Without it artists and designers are totally unable to predict how customers see their work. Do you wear color tinted glasses when you go into a clothing shop? How many of you want to see how something looks in daylight rather than fluorescent shop lighting?

    38. jane says:

      @33
      By flying the avatar sinks endless down.
      To read uuid from primfaces is disabled, building needs much more time when i have to check at any prim which face is opposite to me. I use my camera for building since this downsinking is shure fixed! So i have to check at any prim whats i told about its faces. I work detailed and accurate, just copying of prims dont solve this bug.
      Group profiles are still not readable, we have to make adjustments every day on some!
      Loading of details needs a lot of time, how knows whats bug that is.
      SL kicks me out any 5 minutes, seems it has some bugs in the software again.
      My mind just told me that some people has to learn first how to solve problems and not to hide himself behind new “features”! I make troubleshooting in RL, but this isnt it definitely what LL does! Im not satisfied about the acutal quality of SL if we can tell them “quality”, and….
      Lindens, think about different client versions for users outside the USA. Perhaps this will fix the endless troubles from SL that kicks us out periodically. Im not a software junkie, but good thinking can help avoid future problems. :X

    39. Ryu Darragh says:

      Pastrami, all I can say is thanks for fixing part of the texture sorting and prioritizing effects of so called “invisi prims” and shiny 🙂

      Now all that’s left is making the prims do LOD sorting on the effects so the “invisi prim” effect doesn;t affect alpha textures (like water and avatar skin) behind them 😀

    40. Razor says:

      oh and windlight is nice. less lag, but the default orange sucks windowed dungeon.

    41. Razor says:

      I just payed 400 linden for my void sim will this mean if i had bought it two weeks later i had payed 250? ridiculous. The last two days the f*cking sim was down, and i pay 150 extra real life dollars for that. That sucks. Never thrust Linden Labs.

    42. Erinyse Plane says:

      @34
      the default viewr -is- now windlight. and it really blows. stability wise it is fine so long as you dont move the camera. move the camera on anything but a very small handful of cards it crashes. I was told flippantly “go get a better graphics card” by lindens. Well two of the ones i have are explicitly listed as supported by windlight, and yet… crash all the time, and thats WITH the most currant driver set.
      if i dont crash from panning the camera i -still- freeze or get distorted graphics. the avitar imposters which are on by default lag my computer. The fact that the viewer STILL doesnt properly support duel and multicore machines has led to some of my friends having fried processors from the new client. And now they wnat to shove dazzle on us and make that required to.
      HALT DAZZLE TILL YOU CNA GET THIS VERSION WORKING.

    43. Shai Khalifa says:

      Well given that SL have instantly devalued my sims by 40% in the last hour – with no warning and no offer of compensation – and the myriad of issues I’ve had with the 1.19 viewer, and the serious faults with SL generally –

      I’m selling up – as soon as I can get access to my About Land options.

      So it’s gunna be goodbye to 5 O’Clock Somewhere folks…

      😦
      /me walks away in tears again

    44. Ekio says:

      You want to know what I find interesting. In that interview, the lady asking the questions asked how stability was going to be affected and it took her two times to get an answer out of the lindens.

      Two times. And even then it was jumping back and forth over it. Oh were crossing our fingers it will help, no its not meant to help, its for frame rate.

      Honestly unless the stability was going to be there, why release? They had to know it was going to cause an uproar…

    45. Lina Pussycat says:

      My point was the settings are not hard to actually set just adjust the lighting sliders both sun/moon color wise and ambient wise to about and even level of .35 for sun/moon color and .28 for ambient… adjust to meet your needs… This will note overtly define to many shadows or make things look washed out.

      Yes the defaults could be better but then whats the fun or point of even customizing options if the defaults are grand? Also for those not so technically inclined there are video tutorials on settings out there etc…Yes there should be easier ways to define stuff but using the argument that its casting shadows is a bit absurd unless you really wish the world to be as bland as it was?

      You have these effects in real life and they happen and if you adjust the settings in SL you can still get something that looks close to the older client lighting wise… Could the defaults be better? Yeah but then everything could be better… I’ll concede things could be better

      @41 all one needs to do is shut affinity properly. The odds of their processors flying from not utilizing multi-core technology is minimal if not 0% its absurd to even make that statement … Thats like saying if it didnt utilize 64 bit architectures it would fry it see the issue? With proper cooling and not trying to overclock or push it to far their cpu should of been fine.

      Dazzle is in development by a different team as well and Windlight will still be worked on….

      @40 this is unlikely as they didnt say prices were coming down on those regions

      @33 I suppose this is a Laptop with a integrated Graphics Chipset…. I try to sway people away from using laptops for gaming for several reasons… 1. Airflow on laptops is horrid they usually have 1 poorly placed fan…. 2. Overheating caused by reason 1. 3. Poor graphics support (some higher end ones are ok) and 4. they simply arnt as powerful as a desktop is.

      While i understand some people like to sit back and play games on a laptop they arnt the ideal solution for gaming or the like. LL lists supported video cards and unsupported some unsupported ones do work but when they dont anymore its not that big a shocker really is it?

      Intel included no shaders up till some of their more recent integrated chipsets and some new ones look promising.

      Whilst i agree that things could be better default setting wise people also need to try and play a little 🙂 Not everything can be handed to you or you never learn because you simply dont have to…

    46. Poor SL says:

      They moderate my posts because I speak the truth and they will most likely moderate this one as well even though I’m not saying very *much* bad about them.

      I am leaving Second Life. It is the only way to let them truly know how I feel.

      It is so sad I loved this place for years. I’m heart broken. They don’t listen to anyone so listen to this Linden Labs:

      GOOD BYE

      haha like they won’t moderate and keep this out.

      I have REAL SKY IN REAL LIFE.

      The mistakes they are making is incredible.

    47. la le lu says:

      please continue the supply and support the non-windlight client as an alternative to the windlight based.

    48. Lina Pussycat says:

      @46 you know how much extra development work that would actually cause?

    49. Lina, give the option to set up things is nice, but anyone that studied RL design or any serious company knows that when they offer/launch a product, the product should be the most simple and usuable for the customer (and should work just nice), the customer shouldn’t have to see videos neither touch things to work propertly. It’s like if u buy a new car but u should manipulate the engine to run propertly, a customer shouldn’t have to manipulate the engine, then if u have passion and u like u can tuning the car and get better characteristics

    50. alf lednev says:

      Typical all the SERIOUS blogs prior to this have comments closed, and a light frothy happy one (this one) , people are allowed to comment on.

      Shrugs, competiton is coming closer and a lot of Lindens will end up on the dole queues for their inability to grasp the concept of customer service and real communication.

      We are thanked for our patience when we have no say or control over anything, I just hope none of those Lindens end up as waiters or at drive throughs, god help the customers then. On the bright side they will be exposed to their faults very quickly and succiently.

      Why no blog on the F*UCKED up Asset Server that is impacting so many cutomers enjoyment of SL especially those trying to runa business and contribute to the economy and community of SL. Dead silence from Lindens, or if a hint is made, comments closed. Why are people being dnied the opportunity to question this?

      For the Rememberance Day side distraction, can Lindens build a “Tomb for the Unknown Avie”, you know for all those millions of avies who slip out quietly never to return

    51. Skygirl Kline says:

      Everybody I know is clawing their way back to the previous viewer, Windlight is far from ready…it makes everything look Walt Disney and sickly bright..the sun and water reflections are burning a hole in my screen. I set all at midday..but is that a solution?. Yes we can tweak the sliders, but if others see us looking awful whats the point. My 2000K piano is now white, my face detail ruined. Should you not go back to the drawing board and approach it from an avator and content angle? I am so depressed for SL now. Really sorry to be so negative..I know your trying to make things better for us, but if its like this, I’m going to be spending less time in SL now.

    52. Thunderclap says:

      I agree with 44. It is simple. Most of the problems I have seen related to windlight is on nvidia cards. So if your Nvidia card is updated and you are still borked it is their fault not LLs.
      I have Acer I bought in Jan because my dell was dying. This has integrated intel graphics and as well as dual core and my client runs fine.
      People, 90% of your problem isn’t SL. It is the fact that system has trojans, worms, malware, adware, the damn Aero chewing up your cycles, and other junk.
      If you are running Win XP, you should have NO MORE THAN 30 processes running period. Do not use Norton or Mcafee antivirus.
      If you are running Vista, NO MORE THAN 70 of which 60 are system.
      Turn off the aero interface, the sidebar, the useless glass and flip 3d i candy and the uAC for bhudda’s sake.
      And you mac folks turn off all that extra crap you run in the background. You know what it is, all that i stuff.
      SL is dynamic content that is constantly changing. This will tax even the best graphics cards.
      Again, all other games (crysis, fall of liberty, Wow, Mass effect, gears of war, warhammer, halflife etc) have static content. Once its loaded, the other thing that changes is your position. So you can tweak your card. You can’t do that with SL.
      Oh and Lindens, you did drop the ball so no back pat. It is time to change the minimum and recommended requirements. You haven’t changed them since 2005. Recommended becomes minimum and you create a new recommended.
      Oh and enough of the backing of the bot herders.You won’t use the switch because of the bot herders. Bots are lazy code. I said it. They are lazy, dishonest code. And the people who do it know that the avatar has the biggest load and will still defend bots. So to you I say, you are no better than the ad farmers and the gold farmers of Wow and the PKers of UO and everquest.
      So everyone who is having issues, check your computer. Get a decent antivirus (Kapersky, avg, avast, Nod32, comodo, Trend) quit paying to be reamed. thats a core reason why your system cant run SL. Norton and Mcaffee are eating your cycles.
      Windows does rot you know. You should refresh at leat once a year.
      I am done for the moment.

    53. Thunderclap says:

      Desidelia Vella, I expect my customers to be intelligent adults. This means they have functional brains and can figure out the product. However, this has a steep learning curve. You have to learn how to interact. But so does programming, and graphic design, aircraft maintenence, practicing law or medicine, or piloting, or hell being a chef.
      Videos are expected. ANYTHING Worth doing won’t be easy. Easy is lazy and valueless.
      “the product should be the most simple and usuable for the customer” this statement assumes that the person is stupid. Everything has built in complexity. It is called learning. You aren’t supposed to stop under the day you exit this life.
      So SL is hard. OK. It is demanding of the system. OK. I can name a hundred RL things that are too.
      Personally, I see WL as a good thing.
      Excluding what I mentioned in my earlier post, and the borked asset cluster, 90% of the bad experiences of WL are PEBKaC related. Yes, I said it. PEBKaC has poorly configured system. System fails. Sometimes it is epic fail. I bet if I went to Skygirls location, the piano would look fine to me. Why? Because my system isn’t afflicted with PEBKaC.

    54. Su says:

      Since i downloaded the new version i cannot see avtars properly they look like skinned and fresh from hannibal lector, e.g. my avtar is wearing her head between her legs. I hope Linden will fix the problems, or maybe for older computers provide the older sl version.
      Thank you for help.

    55. Mocksoup Graves says:

      I have never complained about SL, aside from in jest because of lag, buggy stuff. I have always had faith that the Grid was a work in progess.

      This frankly stinks. The avatars are hideous looking. Even with the lovely facelights provided by BareRose, as a feeble attempt to make them look better, there is no photorealism. It looks alien and wrong. Certainly not what I paid for.

      For the last day, since your lovely ‘upgrade’ to Havok4 and insisting on Windlight for the standard viewer, it has been NOTHING but chaos. I just bought a brand new SUPPORTED graphics card (exclusively for Secondlife) and upgraded my ram from 1 gig to 2 gigs. For everything else I do, the onboard graphics cards did the trick. Now my computer is being completely fuktarded. Completely. Hard crashes, my settings for my graphics card needing to be changed on a regular basis. I even rolled back to a previous driver version in an attempt to stay in SL for longer than a few minutes.

      No my settings are not jacked all the way up. I have them on minimum and I still have these issues.

      You are losing the average person’s support. Make Windlight an OPTIONAL viewer, one that can be used sorta like the first look and release candidates are now. Let US choose what our sky looks like, and our water, and OUR experience.

      You keep ruining the good things we have instead of fixing what needs to be fixed. Not exactly wise.

    56. Mocksoup Graves says:

      And Thunderclap, not EVERYONE is a tech.

      In fact most people aren’t. The AVERAGE person isn’t. The average person is who buys and spends Lindens. The average person just wants it to be plug and play.

      Being in intellectual elitist might make you feel good on that side of the monitor, but that doesn’t help the percentage of average users who are going to give up and walk away, and it certainly doesn’t help LL.

    57. Anthony77777 Bandit says:

      Seems that all versions of windlight and the last viewer 1.19.1 (with windlight inside) makes 95% of users unhappy.(lights,shades,shiny,stability…..are a flop)

      Why dont you simply mix skys and water (the only things we like of it) with the best viewer we remember 1.19.0

    58. Michael Timeless says:

      So Thunderclap (I.E. Noname Linden) returns.

      You more than most miss the point. Microchannel, like Windlight was the superior product. Betamax was superior to VHS. Why are neither around anymore. Because while people were tauting the “superiority” of their super products, the less intelligent among us were buying the product that showed immediate benefits.
      You have many valid points, as does Linden Lab. The problem is that most of the customers here are being killed by the superior product. Instead of mouthing your supercilious pompass attitude, perhaps you should consider making viable suggestions to help people get their stuff to work. Without us less intelligent adults your cost will soon skyrocket. Or perhaps you can create a perfect world where your wonder acer can run to it’s hearts content.
      My system works just fine by the way. Except I can’t TP, can’t purchase L$, have stale transactions and about half the time I am the only one able to log onto the system. It’s great to have the ability to log in and play with myself.
      As for laptop users. Again, you miss the point. Many of us less intelligent adults work for companies that have to travel on business (i.e. known as work). I have a hard time lugging my 50 pound desktop and 30″ monitor with me in business class. Most hotels that I travel with have a hard time providing me with a T1 line that I can use for play.

      Second Life is a community. That is what it has been marketed as. That’s the purpose of all the advertising to get mom and pop away from the TV version of CSI. Mom and pop aren’t going to buy new acers to enjoy the experience. Since I’ve worked in technology for most of the last 30 years I have a difficult time explaining SL to my friends who ask about it. Yes, they want you to come and visit, but you can’t use your computer because it takes a dedicated computer to play this game. The look most people give you when you tell them that is facinating. As for 90% of the problem being in people’s computers perhaps you should read the posts from the Linden’s themselves about the ever growing lists of bugs. Are the tickets sitting for weeks and months on end the result of faulty home computers?

      Your right about the steep learning curve. I was amazed when Benjamin Linden didn’t know what NCI or TUi was at a recent office visit. That may be part of the steep learning curve. Do we need to show our Mensa cards to play? This isn’t setup as a touring box, this is a game and social network.

      I should not single you out. You are not the actual problem, but a symptom of the greater problem. This blog is the only outlet for people because most of the time they have no recourse to complain. The serious blogs are closed before a single comment can be made and the teams at Linden Lab that do a good job are quick to respond to problems. The problem is that if I make the best sports car in the world and the team that builds the wheels makes them square, you can tell me how fast it is, how pretty it is, and how great the gas mileage is….but it still won’t drive. You would tell me it was because I had the wrong radio station on and it was using up all the electricity so the motor didn’t turn over. I would point to the square wheels. Perhaps that is just one more unintelligent adults opinion.

      By the way, Thunder, for what it’s worth, I am writing this on my IBM ThinkPad X60, with unsupported Intel Graphics card, set at much higher than the normal settings, using XP, with Microsoft OneCare for the virus protection…and funny thing, it worked fine, in default settings, using a wireless access point that is getting less than 5.5 mb here at the airport. How the hell did I do that on such an obsolete dumb system.
      This exact same system will not load SL in Dallas with a much better connection. It will in Phoenix, it will not in Kansas City. Could it be, I dare say, an infrastructure problem in parts of the system that are screwing these people.

      Since you’re so technically adept. Perhaps you should not bother hanging out with us common folks who use our real SL identity on the Blog. I would love to see what would happen if Linden Lab required us to use our SL identity to post here. Perhaps the era of the LL fan would die a quick death.

    59. Michael Timeless says:

      I hate to do a back to back but couldn’t resist. This blog is almost 12 hours old and it hasn’t filled up. I don’t think the number of people having problems has shrunk. They are giving up and not even bothering to post any more. Pretty soon it will be only the fanboys here and there will be no more nasty posts.

      Putting on my rose colored glasses and reaching for another hit of Soma

    60. Pastrami and Thunderclap are well up the creek with this one.

      Perhaps they should look just a few blog entries ago, to when this crap 1.19 viewer was made mandatory. Mandatory for what, may I ask? To accommodate Windshite and Havoc (yes with a c, vehicles, rotations, falling and stumbling at the top of stairs and low objects). That’s really the limit of the physics I see and things are WORSE. As for WL, well won’t run on my ATI card system at above 0.7fps (down from 20+) which is a joke, so like about 50% of people we have it turned off anyway. How DARE you say it’s optimised for older graphics cards lmfao. Yes, in that blog post you admitted 50% raved and 50% swore at you and that was after just one day of release! So then you make it mandatory the next day! Then everything falls over on the asset servers. Then there are weekend problems you say were the ISP, but funny how every time the system falls over after a new unwanted shiny is introduced it gets blamed on someone else.

      Well the WL team is responsible for the appalling lighting system and failure to properly survey users, just relying on your chums and ending up with stupid cartoony bright light colours that don’t match the previous viewer. You have just wrecked all the work of clothing designers and builders, and what happens with the people who can’t use it? You’ve not only not colour matched the lighting to the way it was before, so nothing in the future is matched, you have created a two tier society.

      And you think everyone is going to rush out and buy a new graphics card or computer in the middle of a recession? lol. And hang on, up until last week everyone said ATi was crap, nVidia was the way to go, and now Thunderclap says it’s all nVidia cards with the problems? lmao. What should be all get next boys? Intel?

      Well, I tell you what, just check out the Mac user group, for stories of graphics glitches, or the SLX forums for PC woes, even pics of semi invisible avatars. Disappearing prims while watching. Is that Windshite, the server code, or the borked comms systems since 1.15, or the huge asset server problems?

      You guys just don’t have a clue do you? Should have listened to the Open Letter a whole year ago. We told you then. So now, you have two months where Active Users have dropped consecutively, which is why you haven’t dared announce the fact that the February Key Metrics are finally out, because they are very bad. People have already been leaving globally. In big time numbers. That’s why Cory got the boot. And actually Active Users and Premiums have been static for 10 months, not growing like Philip says, that’s your own Key Metrics boys, so that’s why Philip has to step down as CEO – the company is shrinking not growing.

      And why is that? Because you insisted on forcing unwanted shinies on us (Voice is real popular huh? Where have all the Voice fan boys gone by the way?) when what we wanted is more stability and less borks, to actually FIX FIX FIX things, and stop reborking things you’ve already fixed with every new shiny based on old code base. But oh no, you know better, the Tao of Linden way. Ha ha. Coming home to roost now.

      So having got this far, what is their bright idea? Let’s add on these new shinies with extra db load onto the already borked asset servers, and get a new continent ready, so we can add yet more load on them before we fix them.

      And then the master stroke! Lower the land price. Make it so all those sucker landlords have lost so much money, they’ll have to stay, and we can get more sucker noobs to cough up. Well, they aren’t coming in any more are they? Euros have dropped off by a third or more, the Japs and Brazilians have gone, because you didn’t bother with language support, ability to buy Lindens, or do anything about time zone friendly hours. I mean you announce this the very day after the worst weekend ever on SL, with the longest outage since the December 2006 20K concurrency 13 hour downtime fiasco, even though the whole thing has been borked the rest of the weekend, and for the weeks since this server code was deployed, server code so that we could run… Windlight and Havok!!!!

      So you ARE responsible for that too. Stop passing the buck. If there are any customers left after this, and my, LL’s PR skills have always been minimal, but this weekend will be mandatory in Marketing 101 about how NOT to do it, there may be enough to pay for your pink slips, because I sincerely hope the new CEO’s first action will be to fire the lot of you, and get some decent coders and network people in, support staff, and PR people. Probably everyone bar the cleaner needs to be fired.

      Then there is a slim chance, a very slim chance, SL might still be around this time next year. Roll on Google…

      The other option, which seems more tempting and realistic as time goes by, is that SL is just one big Ponzi, suckering noobs…

    61. Oh, I forgot to mention, although you’ll probably see this first, since my main comments are in moderation, if you do, by some chance, stick around, you can use the old viewer.

      Either download and use the OnRez one, from http://viewer.onrez.com as that is still 1.18.5.3 and has, incidentally a superior UI, these guys, unlike LL, seem to know what they are doing, like separate browser window, better menus, remembers last 8 tps and hosts of others, like old style functional and efficient comms windows.

      Or you can simply put -channel windshite in your properties path argument and hey presto, you can still run the old viewer and avoid all the problems!

    62. @57 If it’s not LL’s code, very likely to be infrastructure problem. Check out this BBC report. It’s all about corporate greed and how it has wrecked the US internet infrastructure:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/7329992.stm

    63. Norma Desmond, junior says:

      I read the Windlight transcript, studied the land price changes, lived through the last weekend (on my so inadequate was top-of-the-line iMac) and these are my thoughts:

      LL needs a retreat at Pajaro to work out a concise focused business plan that involves the answers to these questions and issues:

      Can your firm go public without mass market customer access?

      Will you have mass market access with the **absolute need** for a home computer that is in excess of what 70-80 -99% of the home market because of the Windlight based client and other issues ? For the homes with these high end systems (Fortune 500 families etc.-what usage can be expected? What revenue stream? What loyalty factor? What value to your commercial product placers?)

      For the creatives-which includes college design students etc.-how many will be able to access and function in current system-either because of the system needs or the down time. With a smaller steady client population because of the computer requirements, does it pan out for creatives to continue to produce for SL?

      The land prices and increase in regions etc. What demands will that make on the servers? Sure revenue now-but long term– how does retention of customers suffer when they are spread out? SL is a social world for the majority of people. Population density decrease impacts ability to interact. Already seeing the chain stores pop up in new sims-fabulous products-but long term how will that fare? How will SL keep its creative edge-how to keep and get new fresh product?

      Bottomline, is SL is place, a game, a world where almost anyone can come in on a reasonable computer-maybe with lousy default settings –cartoon skies etc and quickly easily learn and live and have a social life or creative life—or is SL to be for the high end computer user who is willing to , on occasion, survive delays and log offs and missed meetings with friends for some time on with great skies and state-of-the art features.

      I love SL. I respect the creatives past and present . I KNOW the Linden teams bled into their mouses to make these HUGE changes so much and so fast. If there was a Nobel for what they have done on the cutting edge of graphics-they deserve it .

      Hands down. ((hugs)).

      But it is as if SL went Wright brothers to a G5 private jet–when the world needed a nice comfy 757. Room for all. And a pretty good movie system to get you there. Not cutting edge but pretty good.

      It is binary- mass versus elite. Make a choice, convey it , execute it.

    64. Pepper Haas says:

      I wish people would STOP posting how it’s our computers or settings. The bare fact is SL is badly broken and all this raving about Windlight which causes 95 percent of users a big headache is making it so much worse.
      WE DON’T WANT WINDLIGHT. We want the asset servers to work and TP’s to work and Group IM to work. And we sure as hell don’t want Windlight if it means all our laptop using friends are now locked out.
      Six months ago I recommended to my school we look at opening a campus in SL. I am withdrawing that suggestion, as our students are all on laptops and LL has just told them, we don’t give a fuck about you.

    65. And thunderclap is no matter of intelligence of people and to be honest an intelligent program is that is powerfull and simple, design exists for something, and design a program is not just making it more beauty, is making it accesible, simple, faster, usefull, intuitive, universal and definitive better.

      “the product should be the most simple and usuable for the customer” this statement DON’T assumes that the person is stupid, u maybe thunderclap assumes that the persons are stupid.

      The persons have the right to learn or not, but a program should’t obligate them. And can come a doctor, lawer, pilot, chef, etc and maybe the only thing they wanna do is sit in front the screen, connect SL and talk with people, and NO, they don’t wanna spend time neither learning X hours after maybe more than 10 hard hours of working plus all the time expend in the family.

    66. @62. Great post Norma. “It is binary- mass versus elite. Make a choice, convey it, execute it.”

      I think they have. Gotta be a geek, English speaking, US time zone, rich, and spend more time downloading, installing and troubleshooting the lastest shinies, gizmos, patches and versions than actually doing anything. Oh and pro open source and not actually pay for anything. Except to Linden for the privilege. And being able to arbitrarily close or ignore others’ JIRA entries is an added bonus too. We might as well leave them to their sad and lonely selves.

    67. yuriko nishi says:

      wl rocks! thanks guys! good work.
      i have an ati card, and it doesnt run wl too good with all shaders, but i blame shitty ati drivers 😉

      now please give us a new avatar mesh! maybe 2 this time 😉 and keep the old one so people dont need to whine 🙂

    68. Vivienne says:

      @ Thunderclap

      “And you mac folks turn off all that extra crap you run in the background. You know what it is, all that i stuff.”

      Oh, very nice. And it still gives me a performance loss of 50% compared to 1.18. Nicholaz?

      Hey. i wonder if you are aware that a lot of creatives and institutions use Macs, and not the very latest ones. There is a somewhat high percentage of Mac users into SL, because SL naturally attracts the creatives and the creative agencies by nature. This group is important for the wellness of SL.

      Do you really expect them to run around SL on 5 fps with NO shaders enabled, unable to create anything senseful anymore, unable to even resize the application window and perform basic tasks? Why did the viewer work acceptable in 1.17, somehow a bit slower in 1.18 on Max Settings, while 1.19 completely refuses to operate on any AGP mac on Minimum settings – and slows down performance significally on every Intel mac? As well as it slows down any PC even high end ones? Why? What for?

      Can you explain this? I cannot.

      But i can see the results, and these will cause a major exodus of Mac users. Your statement tells me that your exclusive high tekkie view on things may be the reason for that desaster, cause it may be shared by some Lindens.

      It is like someone mentioned before. IF linden lab wants a “metaverse”, they must provide ppl with an open platform, accessible for a wide range of social as well as professional groups and a computer platform ranging at least from lower middle class to upper midrange – and guarantee continuity.

      The internet would NEVER have survived if only the high tekkies like you had been able to use it, you know. And it certainly would never been of interest for ANY business if it had restricted itself on a user base made of owners of high end pro gaming computers and tekkies.

      And in case LL decides to proceed with raising harware demands (and costs for the potential average user) the way it carelessly did by introducing Windlight, this will become nothing more than another high end pro gamer platform, which will have to compete with other high end pro gamer platforms for attracting a very limited number of high end pro tekkies and gamers. But even Blizzard´s successful WoW beats SL by MILES if it comes to frame rates and overall performance on midrange systems.

      So where is the sense? I CAN understand the tekkie view on things. But i do not think this is the direction LL should move to.

      But obviously they do so.

    69. Lina Pussycat says:

      @63 some macs have issues yes. Again macs in general arnt really built for gaming (resulting from apple pretty much completely controlling the mac hardware market) While this create less compatibility problems with apps that are out there (IE they only need to design for a hand full of configurations it does at times leave a lack in performance…. There is also the fact that Mac’s GLSL support is kinda off.

      Hence if you read the transcript there are mac optimizations they had to do and they worked directly with Apple to do them. As far as what SL will run on. It will run on what is considered a low end graphics card these days…. An intel integrated or a legacy nvidia series wll not work all that well….. I’d say at minimum that people should be running at least a higher 5000 series…. 6800 GS if you can find it as AGP runs Windlight on high settings and i use it every day…

      CPU: AMD K7 (Unknown model) (1669 MHz)
      Memory: 2048 MB
      OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
      Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
      Graphics Card: GeForce 6800 GS/AGP/SSE/3DNOW!
      OpenGL Version: 2.1.1

      People whine about performance and stuff but my system isnt that good and runs windlight fine. You dont need a high end computer at all to run SL….. I have Windlight on high settings , with water reflections added in and a high sky mesh detail….. I get at least 15 FPS (unless im around a crowd) Previous i got at max 12 FPS in the same spot…. There are a good deal of reasons why SL might seem to run slower including newly downloaded software….. New updates, memory leaks in other applications etc, there can also be memory leaks in SL.

      But this may not directly relate to the way SL looks. Frame Rates havent dropped for me at all so Im quite clueless what is going on there, Most companies do not adamantly support unsupported hardware like integrated graphics chips , or legacy graphics cards …..

      This isnt really even a tekkie view on things its progression and while people may not like it directly things are going to need to progress at some point. Same with computers as someone said before Windows needs to be reinstalled every so often. People running vista need to turn some stuff off and it still has some intermediate problems with Vista.

      You need to keep in mind not many companies support Linux , OSX and Windows…… So there are bound to be glitches along the way. Also wait for optimizations. This is still not a 100% require viewer and will run fantastic with only basic shahders on…. I’ve run Windlight for awhile and i can run it on my system prefectly fine…. The question is why arnt other people able to if their systems are “better”? As someone said it comes down to care and a ton of other variables.

      A high end computer with a horribly fragmented hard drive full of spyware and adware and viruses , with applications taking up cycles like mcafee or a antivirus app or a firewall will not run all that well…

      I’m just point out that not all lag is LL’s fault.

    70. Vivienne says:

      In this case it IS lindens fault. From the official forum:

      http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=251866

      VERYONE having issues with the Mac client, READ THIS
      I posted this as a reply to another post, but felt it deserved its own post:

      To the folks having trouble with SL slowing down on Macs, LISTEN TO ME PLEASE.

      Go into advanced graphics options and DROP THE GRAPHICS MEMORY SETTING TO HALF OF WHAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE.

      This should COMPLETELY fix the problem.

      I don’t know *WHY* LL is still shipping the client with the video RAM usage equal to RAM on the card. This is what is leading to 95% of complaints about the Mac client at the moment, as Apple has fixed their video drivers and there are no longer any glitches or issues there.

      This has been a problem for two years now and it’s still ongoing. Mac OS X uses a lot of GPU RAM for itself, and you need to reduce SL’s usage to keep video RAM from running out which causes texture thrashing.

      Notice that it runs well for a few minutes; this is because not all the textures have loaded yet. As soon as they do load and video RAM runs out, performance will fall through the floor.

      Heed my tip; this post’s text should be branded into the side of the Mac port maintainer so he FIXES this default once and for all.

      -Zorin, exasperated.

      So. It helped running SL on my more than capable mac INDEED, but NO windlight possible with my common ATI Radeon 9800, while another mac user running a nvidia 6800 (almost same generation of GPU) has NO problems with windlight at all (tho not more than a disappointing 12-15 fps).

      And it IS certainly LL fault to deliver such a crappy viewer which is NOT working with Apples fix, which is TWO years old, isn´t it?

      Anyway, you cannot really call a performance of 5-10 fps you get while moving on a straight line through a ten prim forest acceptable. if you do so, I wonder what you do in SL.

    71. Lina Pussycat says:

      @65 what you are describing is most certainly not LL’s fault since OSX is using up GPU power how is that LL’s fault? They dont know if your using the GUI right off or not. Also I’m running on Windows not OSX but i have also run in Linux with Compiz fusion on which is graphically demanding as well… You cant blame LL for the fault of a default UI design that is horrid and uses up vRam from the video card. This is a taxing issue that Apple themselves need to fix to get it to recognize an open window that is using full 3d and switch to a diff GUI or fall back on something that is less resource intensive.

      This goes for things like Vista or Compiz Fusion as well (though in all 3 cases the user can shut this stuff off) So do you care to explain to me why you honestly think that is LL’s direct fault for something Apple chose to implement? Its an ongoing problem due to the fact that its built into the OS unless LL can somehow completely disable your UI which then you’d prolly run around screaming that it makes OSX look horrendous its not their fault.

      Performance wise on a Mac is not meant for heavy 3d stuff other then a Mac pro and those are more designed as work stations. This is the main reason you didnt see a ton of games run on OSX in the first place because while its more secure etc it also lags behind in other areas. I like Apple and OSX i really do but there are just some poor design choices and Microsoft made alot of them with Vista to and Some linux distrobutions use compiz by default as well…

      Its a bad Design of the OS in question if it has something that eats at your Gpu’s vram and it cant be held against a company who has worked directly with apple on optimizations. If your having a hard time …. A word of advice Shut off anything that is GPU intensive inside the Operating system itself and then try SL. If the problem persists then yes it is likely LL’s fault but blaming it on them due to it detecting what your graphics card ram is and setting it to that while OSX is eating up said Vram is a bit ridiculous dont you think?

    72. Lina Pussycat says:

      Also a 5 to 10 FPS leap in performance is a good leap considering the graphics are better now on my end then they were with the previosu viewer when i had Lower FPS…. A system that is modern enough to play SL wont bankrupt anyone and you can probably get a full setup for under 1 grand quite easily that will acceptably play SL..

      As a review of one card said we now have cards under 125 USD that can play most of todays games at mid settings easy.

    73. Vivienne says:

      @ Lina

      The best you can get new for a 2 years ols AGP mac is the x800 ATI and it is at least 250 Us dollars.

      The best overall you can get for AN AGP G5 is a nvidia 7800, flashed for a mac, which is about 300 US dollars.

      So what are you trying to tell me there?

    74. Vivienne says:

      @ Lina

      See, Microsoft díd great on Vista, as you claim. Nice. After all LL made SL run on Vista, right? Was this one year or two years ago?

      MacOS X is out there for some more time, and the graphics fix mentioned was done by Apple two years ago. LL obviously did not take care of a liitle fix which obviously causes a LOT of headaches for mac users in SL.

      There is no need to argue here. LL fault, just eat it, even if you are married to my beloved Torley.

    75. Lina Pussycat says:

      @68 Well whats this tell you about macs? a 7800 Pci-e is 136 usd for a PC… Some agp versions cost more but i doubt you’ll find more costing more then 200…. Mac hardware is overpriced since Apple controls all the hardware you have a choice in the matter of…

      My point here is that the design flaw isnt really in SL but rather in OSX itself. If you take its GUI needing the amount of VRAM it does and that halving it helps…. What does that ultimately tell you? It tells me that the OS shouldn’t have that GUI if its pulling to many resources off of other applications forcing them to run poorly…

      Ultimately Macs arnt good for gaming, the OS and the hardware choices really arnt meant for gaming that heavily sure they can play some stuff here and there but thats what tends to happen with 3d GUI’s…. The point here is that how can one blame SL for something that is clearly OS related in this case?

    76. Lina Pussycat says:

      Also i never said vista was good its a poorly designed GUI just like OSX has. There isnt a fix on the OS end if its still happening thats clearly a fault of both sides here. The windlight team worked with Apple on things so both sides are to blame if its not coming down to it working well…

      Any GUI that uses up enough VRAM to actually cause a noticeable impact on your computer experience is a Poor design from the OS maker be it Apple Or Microsoft or Those Linux distributions that include Compiz Fusion by default. I think both Apple and LL could of done better in this case but the mere fact that they worked together on the issue makes them both at fault not just LL.

      A clear problem with OSX is relative to GLSL and their GUI being to graphically intensive. Both of which are things on Apples end. The fact that the Fix is lowering the VRAM SL can allocate to itself shows its a problem with OSX not SL.

      Im not arguing with you at all im jut pointing out that you cant really just point the finger at LL here without also pointing it at Apple for a poorly designed UI in the first place. Scrapping the pretty in OSX would pretty much give people most of the performance that they lost due to it…

    77. Bracken says:

      Lina…you miss the point, or you are a tool. Please drop the “It works great for me so it must be perfect!” garbage. You think those who now have issues running SL should go shell out a bunch of money for new computers and/or parts? Two weekx ago I had a business on SL…We filmed shows for T.V.. We had NO issues at all…no crashes, very minor lagging. Since the new updates, I cannot even log on with the new viewer (1.19.4). Reverted back to my earlier version(1.19.0(5)) and would crash constantly….on the same viewer I was running 2 weeks ago! But it must be my pc…or maybe my graphics card…or the massive influx of trojans, worms, adware, and malware that showed up all of a sudden.us Oh wait…maybe…it could be a faulty product?? I think I saw a few people who had similar problems. But we should all go out and spend our stimulus checks on new computers…that Linden will no longer support in a few months…progress happens, right?

    78. solar Legion says:

      to all those complaining – I agree with Lina … my system runs SL just fine – with everything except draw distance maxed out at that! All windlight and other features enabled – it looks perfect.

      I even updated my video drivers – not because I HAD to, but simply to stay up to date.

      Look elsewhere for the real reason you cannot run SL please.

      System:

      CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (2793 MHz)
      Memory: 2046 MB
      OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
      Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
      Graphics Card: Radeon X1300/X1550 Series
      OpenGL Version: 2.1.7412 Release

    79. Lina Pussycat says:

      Im far from missing the point and im far from a tool my point is there are many aspects that contribute to lag. Yes people may experience more crashing with a specific release and a crash and lag can be contributed to a client update however cases where people are crashing more then the average may not be directly from just the client. There are so many different variables in hardware and software out there is one aspect that causes alot of trouble.

      Admittedly there are times I crash however if someone is crashing say every 5 minutes or so maybe they should be looking at something other then the client aspect that might be contributing to it. Software can at times conflict with one another if things are both running at the same time for instance.

      And what i was saying was more geared towards the whole Mac Client performance being poor and a fix for it is lowering the VRAM SL can allocate for itself. That comes off as poor OS design not poor client design. There are times OS makers make poor decisions like Apples lack of support for what Photoshop CS4 64 bit was being written in which is forcing adobe to have to go back and rewrite the entire codebase for CS4 64 bit to work on OSX.

      My point was that the performance drops caused by a GUI cannot be directly pointed at LL and say its their fault. I dont expect everyone to go out and buy a new computer but…. At the very least why not at least use supported hardware?

      Minimum requirements are going to run at the lowest settings clearly and higher will work better. Im aware SL has problems there are wide spread ones we all experience but when the problem isnt directly widespread to every OSX user or Every Vista user it becomes harder to pinpoint. This is where problems arise. A fix may fix something for people but then break something for someone else entirely based on hardware and software etc.

      Yes SL could be better at times but what I was simply suggesting was quite possibly a loss in performance due to VRam being used up by the OS itself is a poor design.. You cant really argue that. A 6800 GS will run Windlight on High Settings with reflections on on XP the same setup on a mac may not work as well because of its graphical interface requiring a certain amount of Vram….

      Yes there are bugs in the Client even I crash at times so its not perfect and it never will be 100% bug free. I could tell you if it was your PC or the client or whatever without knowing your computers specs , doing scans , checking fragmentation , among other things…. I always check those things If im crashing to frequently and it usually turns out to be a wise choice. While it may run good for me it may not run good for everyone else Im clearly aware of that.

      The suggestions of it being spyware etc should actually be more a tip to check for those if things happen. I know alot of people that just run their PC and never bother checking these things and then wonder why performance is bad at times.

      Again i was more referring to mac’s specifically there in the other posts i made after vivienne…. More fixes are on the way but thats why the Client is still optional and probably wont be mandatory till some more of the optimizations are in….

    80. Lina Pussycat says:

      Also remember 🙂 What is considered an acceptable FPS may differ from person to person….

    81. Vivienne says:

      @ Lina

      I reported the ATI Radeon 9800/G5 problem on the jira a few weeks ago as a showstopper. Last time i viewed the jira entry it was in “we work on it” state. A few days later they released this viewer.

      No fix, no explaination, not even a workaround suggestion.

      So come on, stop your almost religious LL apologies.

    82. Lina Pussycat says:

      We are working on it does not necessarily mean its going to go directly into the next release. It may not of made it to this release in time but it might be in the process of being fixed. Im not apologizing at all for LL but this is how the software world works not everything gets in before release it just happens nothing we can do about it.

      Also this isnt a mandatory download… Who’s to say what your suggesting wont be fixed by the time it is mandatory? In all retrospect yes i think LL could of done a better job and some more testing would of been good….. But i also think that you need to think on what i said as well because the post you pasted makes it look like an OSX issue rather then an SL issue….

      Could things be better? Yep, Do i expect them to get better in the first mainstream release of a new client that isnt mandatory yet? No, i think Its a combination of faults here. Since Apple did work with LL on some windlight codes… Im just saying that both sides are at fault so jsut saying hey LL its all your fault doesnt help anyone. They may need to contact Apple again to work on optimizations who knows…

    83. Vivienne says:

      @ Lina

      “Again i was more referring to mac’s specifically there in the other posts..”

      Why? Do you run one? You don´t.

      Obviously you did not get it right.. So here again: These Linden boys pretend they were discussing all this with the Apple boys recently. Obviously they discussed everything, maybe this beautiful Windlight Sky, but NOT this little, but essential OS Fix, which was well known sine two years.

      So they released a viewer which unnecessarily hampers performance of every Macintosh on this globe by an awul amount of frames per second loss – by default.

      The only thing they really had to do in order to prevent this was to correct the preferences of the viewer. Luckily this setting can be easily ficxed by every user by a little slider in the prefs window.

      But – no Linden there to tell the user HOW: No reaction.

      This is not related to any kind of OS srtucture or anything sophisticated, in my opinion this is just both pure incompetence as well as sheer ignorance. LL is about to lose some real money and a bunch of content creators over this. And this is way MORE important to me than a discussion on the disadvantage or advantage of any OS. And if obvious, more or less sluggish errors like this one are common inside LL, then help us god.

      I am aware that the Radeon problem is another one. But here as well as in the other case i simply cannot agree with the way LL handles such things. And btw, if this happens to the Mac users, this can happen to anyone else.

      I really love SL and spend all my spare time in it. i adore LL for making this for us, and I really appreciate their good work. But this here is….hrm.

    84. Alissa Sabre says:

      Wow, a text transcript from the beginning!

      Thank you Lindens. I now understand you are progressing by leaning from the past. 🙂

    85. Lina Pussycat says:

      How isnt it anything to due with OS structure. The fix itself proves it to be an OS structure issue. A GUI requiring enough VRAM to actually hamper performance of an application if it tries to utilize what its supposed to be able to is a poor design on Part of the OS. The Linden’s have a built in detection to know how much Vram your
      graphics card has and set it accordingly. They’d need to entirely change the code structure and force it at a low default for everyone to do what your suggesting.

      There would be no outward setting and everyone would start out at 64 or 128 or whatever they’d make the default to be and then the people that need it higher would still need to change. Im not saying any OS has an advantage or disadvantage itself. Just that Graphical User Interfaces that require enough VRAM to actually effect apps are not good practice for any operating system to use.

      Notice with Vista people tell you to shut off aero and any of the extra 3d junk? Do you know why that is? Its because Aero and the 3d stuff in Vista like OSX pull off VRAM from the graphics card and hamper the performance of what the graphics card is able to do without it. While

      LL could set a low default and not do the reccomended settings at start up it doesnt solve the root issue im stating which is that the OS itself is using up VRAM and that that in and of itself is a design flaw that has nothing to do with LL’s coding or SL. I’m saying its a poor design choice on Apples part and people that plan to use OSX for gaming especially if in a windowed mode or anything to multi task they should look at shutting those things off so the OS doesnt take up VRAM (if its possible to shut it off…)

      And i agree if they knew about it and know a work around they should make people aware of it in the blog post for the release… Both a work around on how to set the VRAM SL utilizes lower or like im suggesting telling people how to turn off some graphical options in OSX so its less heavy on Graphic resources that the OS itself requires.

      I understand your frustrated by these things happening to you and others are frustrated to but take an honest hard look at what im saying. This is the same reason when im on Linux or if im ever on a PC with vista that i disable any 3d Options or anything OS wise that is GPU intensive on its own….

    86. Whoo Hoo says:

      ***** WOW Lina is sure guarding the blog today, Thunder takes over when she leaves. *****
      🙂 🙂 🙂

    87. Pointside Sunbelter says:

      Well I am going to chime in with my opinion even though I am *not* having client issues. But there are some things I think should be mentioned.

      I think windlight is amazing. And I have noticed a huge increase in performance and frame rates are better. My friends list loads again and it is an overall more pleasant experience. Except most of my friends are all having problems.

      But the catch: I have a gaming machine with 4 GB of RAM and a Radeon 1300x Graphics Card, with VISTA (yes thats right) fully loaded, areo-glass, the works.

      I will say that when I first loaded SL on Vista a few months back, it crashed about 20 seconds into login until I got the very latest drivers from ATI website. One small build number made the difference, I had something like version 8.21 and installed 8.22 and it fixed it.

      And this whole Avatar Impostor thing really improves performance on my machine. If you go to SL Live Music Events with 80 to 100 avatars in a small area you really notice the improvement. And you can actually see it doing it’s thing by not updating the distant avatars as much. I definitely see the direction that LL is trying to go with the new client. But I think my old machine would probably be choking on it.

      I do believe forcing this update so soon, to include windlight, was probably not the best idea. I know a lot of ppl having problems.

      *** On the other hand, I do *NOT* believe that older graphics cards should have to be supported forever just like when new game versions come out by other companies. An example of this is the new Soldier of Fortune 3, will not run on either of my 2 older PC’s or my laptop, but runs fine on my new machine…

      I think that eventually you have to tie the older graphics cards to a stump and *bash* them in the head with a shovel, in the name of progress. All video game companies have to do this, eventually. But, the problems with the admitted SL crash rate needing to be lowered, should be top priority at LL.

      I do like the podcast, there should be more, especially when big issues like windlight viewer updates happen. (Torley could probably use a sedative though, ~kidding) 🙂 I was curious how the Avatar Impostor worked because like I said earlier, I could see something different going on with distant avatar updates at Live Events but wasn’t sure how it worked, now I know.

      *************
      And uh, @60
      “Bled into their mouses”… LOL thats too much. That statement has so much dedication to LL that you don’t have to comment for the rest of the year. You’re covered! Definitely quote of the month. I never realized there was so much drama involved with mouses. 😉

    88. Kiya says:

      @73 solar Legion…

      I have almost the same setup as you…

      Mine:
      CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (3065 MHz)
      Memory: 2040 MB
      OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
      Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
      Graphics Card: VisionTek Radeon X1550 Series
      OpenGL Version: 2.1.7412 Release

      Yours:

      CPU: Intel Pentium 4 (Unknown model) (2793 MHz)
      Memory: 2046 MB
      OS Version: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
      Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
      Graphics Card: Radeon X1300/X1550 Series
      OpenGL Version: 2.1.7412 Release

      What settings are you running? I cannot run the newer viewers at all….Thanks for any help.

    89. glow Raymaker says:

      whem you tp to a region and all you can see is a nice sea scene without even you avi at the site i can get a better effect witha screen saver. Sorry bot the windlight 1.19 versons arnt as good as 1.18.5 buy a long shot!
      I miss not having im tabs flash when a new reply arrives from chat, as i have to keep chaecking every tab regularly just in case some1 replies.
      And TPs either stall and leave the screen black without you moveing for 2-5 min till the tp screen clears to see your still on the same spot. But hearing local chat in the background tells you that you didnt tp at all. And you cant cancel the tp as no cancel buttons there!

      Or how about selecting 1 of 2 tp requests to find you arrive at the 2nd 1 more often than the place you actually picked! Thats if you dont get logged out with a message, wothout a message or you get a error message 2 seconds into it!

      Now sl is too unstable to even try the new srcipting addon features torley mentions in the latest tutorial to justify the upgrade either. X(

      We didnt ask for windlight and many stated they didnt want it. you even promised we didnt have to upgrade but you forced us after we stated we went back to 1.18.5 after trying 1.19.1.4 so you were mean and petty we didnt like your new toy!

      Listen to the customers (US!) And give us what we (or in my case I payed prem rates for) a reasonable service that we need!!! As opposed to what you want us to need.

    90. Ambergris says:

      The concept of windlight seems to be:
      A wonderful thing for everyone to fly around and see the content created in amazing new ways.

      The reality of windlight seems to be:
      Content creators cannot create said content anymore.

      Can someone PLEASE fix the Invisible Skirt bug?

      Why is it that whenever there is a change, it impacts businesses as if Linden Lab has us targeted in their rifle sights?

      I may be able to deal with the current version if I knew that my customers would be able to see the design I spent hours creating, and they just spent their money on. Maybe.

      As it stands 90% of my product is just useless prims with a pretty picture on the front. Who wants to by a gown or dress they cannot see?

      I am reading a lot of last straw posts here. Is anyone listening?

    91. Lina, I wish you’d be quiet, you obviously know nothing about Macs or most of what you are talking about. It’s utter bilge. What do you think a GPU is for? It’s a card for running graphics right, to the screen? Graphics Processor Unit. What is output to the screen? G-R-A-P-H-I-C-S. What else should do it? Take cycles from your cpu? That affects other stuff. Apple is easy. there is one standard, there is no other way of displaying. So all LL has to do is clearly adhere to one standard, which they haven’t bothered to do for 2 years. That is LL’s fault.

      Apple does not control all the hardware, it uses open standard bits you can get anywhere, and uses the very same cpus as PCs. Happens to be a superior OS to Vista, so how can it be worse than a PC?

      There is a way of using a “different GUI” as you put it: running in full screen mode, but that often crashes the viewer, again LL’s fault, since it doesn’t in a window. Like if LL didn’t hand roll everything and reinvent the wheel, but use the optimised OS routines, such as for international keyboard handling, menus, window drawing, control drawing and just about everything else, then it might work properly. Apple’s stuff works. LL’s doesn’t we know that. so use more of the stuff you KNOW works, rather that trying to do it yourself, and coming up with an appalling GUI while at it., I mean guys, TWO menu bars in a Mac app is realy the biggest interface no no there is.

      Read the first section of Apple’s Human Interface Guidelines. Every programmer should. It explains the reasons, the theories, experiments, and other work done on how the brain works, and why certain metaphors and ways of doing things are better and more efficient. Applies to any machine, any OS. The subsequent parts explain how Apple does it, and describes the controls and rules to get a consistent interface and behaviour. Quite important, since every other OS has copied Apple: that’s the bit they are copying really, so read it Linden. And fire whoever thought orange and grey looked nice.

      “Performance wise on a Mac is not meant for heavy 3d stuff other then a Mac pro and those are more designed as work stations. This is the main reason you didnt see a ton of games run on OSX in the first place because while its more secure etc it also lags behind in other areas.”

      This always makes me laugh every time I hear this, like the Mac is a toy, or no good at number crunching. The Mac was doing graphics 11 years before MS managed to copy it enough to get the first Windoze OS that worked and could do it itself, W95. That’s why the Mac stole all the graphics market, because PCs couldn’t cope. Could even cope with running MS’s own Excel either, as Excel started life on the Mac, and made it to PCs later. (Yes check it up, it’s true, like almost every other industry standard programme from Adobe Photoshop to Illustrator to QuarkXPress.) Graphics handling is data intensive and involves lots of number crunching, which is why it was good at it, because it was and is a great machine and OS. And why everyone else plays catch up to it. And continues to do so from high end film work to 3D graphics to print to music. It’s the choice of more professionals, because, well, it just works as they say.

      The main reason games didn’t work on Mac OS X has nothing to do with that, it’s to do with the fact that a lot of games developers chose to work with proprietary MS DirectX, which MS doesn’t port to anything else than Windows rather than an open standard (because it’s actually MS that likes to control everything, not Apple). This is why, up until recently, we’ve been limited on online games too because SL is one of the few that uses an open standard. Most require DirectX. Not that it was impossible to do on RISC processors, but lengthy, awkward, and usually involved emulation slowing things down to unacceptable levels on older hardware. Much as Linux is left out as a fully supported core system by MS. However, now Macs use the same cpus as PCs, no problem. They have after all run the sae graphics cards as PCs for more than 20 years already. So doing such ports is easier, with virtual machines, don’t even need to run Windows now, and can use Unix or Mac or whatever libraries. Since a Mac can run OS X, Windows and Linux, and anything else you care unlike most machines.

      And for Mac the gaming problem is solved:Transgaming has also produced Cider, a Wine library for Apple-Intel architecture Macintoshes. Instead of being an end-user product, Cider (like Winelib) is a wrapper allowing developers to adapt their games to run natively on Intel Mac OS X without any changes in source code. Several are now up and running and working well, and best of all, still don’t need any MS crap on the machine to run it. 🙂

      You say you run Linux. Do you know what is under the hood of Mac OS X? It’s Unix basically, a XNU kernel part Mach part BSD with standard Unix facilities. The rest is layered on top. I think the engineers at Apple that have run a successful OS that has been copied by others for 25 years have more idea and experience than Linden’s do who after 9 years, have still to produce a sole app that works properly. And which is based on a whole host of other people’s libraries, or perhaps that is the problem. Or LL doesn’t understand them. Apple did a whole OS, the hardware and apps in 3 years. It took MS 11 years to copy it. And LL 9 years has produced a beta still missing, and having broken, huge gobs of core functionality. Compounded by zero idea on network structure and database handling. So I wonder who is smarter? Who still leads the field? Who really is cutting edge and not playing catch up? Hmm.

      But now I must take exception to where you are being a complete idiot. You recommend turning firewalls off. This is for a net application that has not only an embedded web browser in it, but handles media streams, and now the recently implemented HTML on a prim. You must be nuts. Not that PC viruses and malware and spyware affect Macs, but even so, that’s not just a security breach of the highest order, doing that at work would probably get you fired on the spot.

      So having spouted on erroneous and frankly mad and dangerous ideas on several things we can’t really take seriously anything else you say.

      But I’ll tell you how I *KNOW* it is all LL, and nothing to do with Apple, my two year old iMac G5, my ATi Radeon X600 Pro 128Mb, my 1Gb RAM, my internet connection, or the fact that I go through wireless into the building next door through concrete (with permission of course!). You see, back in the days of weekly updates, and I mean when it went to weekly more often than not rather than the hitherto fortnightly, things were getting worse, bug reports, discussions and yes the Mac version had a huge memory leak, but it was always Mac bla blah, ATi cards blah blah, Radeon blah blah, oh wireless, blah blah.

      So the usual as it was then. Wednesday it comes out, doesn’t work, patch to the patch on Thursday, falls over Friday, no LL staff on, complete system falls over all weekend like it still does, Monday they fixed it (not European time of course but PST) so by then you could just get Tuesday, one day a week to do anything, before they rushed out another borked update on Wednesday and it all began over again. And every time performance got worse, we lost features etc. Must have been about the 1.12 early 1.13 time. The Wednesday dread.

      And then it happened. Another update. This time, logged in straight away, so fast you thought it was an error. Inv loaded like lightning. Friends list was there. So was money. movement was smooth, fluid, and FAST. Absolutely zero lag. Well yes, full areas took a few seconds, maybe ten to load, even 40 av clubs rezzed in a couple of minutes instead of 40 and you could still move very well. It was like Bloody Hell!! They’ve fixed it! This is how it should be. This is what all the others have had. Magic. Maybe a very lucky connection, so log off and relog, the same! Great! And for a machine restart. I loved it. So did many other Mac users. But seems PC people didn’t, for the vast majority it was worse, and for some crashed so much it was unplayable. Well… lol, hard cheddar for a week, we’d had that, next update would be better. But no, end of that week, they obviously reversed what they had done, and PC people were better, and we were back to where we were. We complained about this. To no avail. I mean this was all week solidly, no crashes, nothing. Sure the odd wobble you get with every other app on wireless, but not the usual stuff with SL only, which is LL’s fault. So it CAN work, and proves it is not my machine, or connection, and no settings at all were changed.

      But they never put it back, and I’ve never had a performance as good and smooth since. What they should have done is looked at it, and what we said (ha ha) and worked out what it was, and kept both streams in. If they’d done that we wouldn’t have had most of the subsequent problems. It’s pretty common in software development.

      But LL with it’s Tao, thinks it can do things differently. Well, other software houses ship code that works, on time. LL doesn’t, because of that. They don’t use standard interface elements or rules, or optimised OS routines. That alone shows their ineptness. Bugs and borks that disappear mysteriously reappear the next update or one after and have to be squashed again. Or a piece if functionality suddenly disappears (like dragging a edit colour palette to one of the custom palette boxes – why? what change was necessary there?). That show bad bug tracking (LL’s fault), or there is a later programmer changing something or switching it without the other knowing (poor management and code design, again LL’s fault), or they are working in some new shiny on an old outdated code base (LL’s fault yet again). All of these are bad and avoidable by competent people. Been there, done it, coded it, implemented it.

      So yes, almost all of it IS LL’s fault. I just wish they bucked up their ideas and got some people in who knew what they were doing in all departments, including PR.

    92. glow Raymaker says:

      Look modern Hds have cashe as do video cards to catch frequent bits of information so hds dont run non stop.
      However SL has a unique way of losing lots of bits of info commoing to your computer on a regular basis!.

      This produces program not responing messages alot of the time despite the fact that it looks fine to you.
      Now if your comp thinks a program isnt responding then its liable to keep looking for that same bit of info that no longer exists, so processors will run non stop searching for them. However we personally are past that laged bit and are only interested in whats happening now.

      IE computers are built to be anal retentive on data accusition and SL cant help causeing our comps to go psycho!
      So it doesnt matter if you have multi core or not SL will lag your comp at least some of the time due to the nature of the real time nature of sls enviroment.

    93. Let’s not forget some things either shall we? Let’s start with the 1.20 sever code. Sure tested, and I guess on deployment we expect a few things, and LL tells us that, though others manage to avoid it. But hold on, wasn’t just rolled out. Partly deployed. That’s quite unusual. And then they waited just a day, a DAY! before rolling the rest out. And that was a Monday morning, the lightest day, because everyone knows they have to wait for LL to get in and fix the havoc caused over the weekend by having insufficient staff who know what they are doing around 24/7. Highly unusual.

      And we’re not talking just Windlimp here, but Havok 4 deployment too. Two huge sub sections of code changes at the sane tine. Wise? When both still have a raft of bugs and problems. See the JIRA for that. I mean graphics and lighting and physics. Yes and they are tied up together. Have they been tested together properly?

      And then, we get the new viewer. Absolute chaos. So much so the next day there is a blog post where LL admits 50% rave, and 50% are swearing at them with serious serious problems. Not a minority. Ha;f. Split right down the middle. So what do they do? Without a single bug or problem being addressed, the very next day they make it mandatory. WHAT? Have they completely lost their minds? Actually no, more to come. Following that, where people are having the WL problems, semi visible avs, all the other probs, the Havok 4 bugs and probs: vehicles, rotations, flying and stumbling over low objects and stairs (that wasn’t found in testing?) – and that’s all the physics I normally see, other than collisons with prims, which is also borked, in my pool my head and shoulders disappear up to my elbows in the walls – so for me Havok 4 is a pile of brown steamy stuff, everything is worse. And I don’t need to know of WL probs, since it won’t run on my machine, and now we have a two tier society.

      All that aside, and struggling with all those problems, plus Mono betas, the asset server borks still not fixed after 4 attempts, not much hope for tomorrow’s “fix” plus the usual weekend chaos, they left us with a mandatory borked and not working update that causes known major problems for 50% of its customers on a Friday!!! Which they keep doing despite promising not to, like they keep promising this new shiny is going to fix all the problems, be cooler and faster lmao.

      Then we get the complete meltdown, the supposed ISP failure, leading to the biggest downtime outage since the December 2006 20K concurrency flag waving that took the grid down for 13 hours.

      So three weeks of crap service in terms of assets, rezzing, inv, linking, comms, tp, transaction failures and failed deliveries – basically not being able to do anything and causing huge amounts of extra work with irate customers who think it is our fault and we are trying to scam them, a bad server update, a very bad viewer update, two huge buggy pieces of code changing everything, the usual weekend farce that is a waste of time trying to do anything, and then a major outage and restricted logins and what do they do?

      First thing Monday drop the bombshell of islands being reduced in price by 40% which has wiped out loads of value from faithful customers, and you might do something about it in a day or two if there is sufficient noise. I think there is. But here’s where it gets interesting. They have a whole new mainland continent ready to drop in, once they have the new fangled web shop up and running. WHAT? I mean hang ok, we’ll forget that they have only just silently, without even a blog post, slipped in February Key Metrics weeks late. Silent because it’s bad news, all the numbers are down, and even in the US Active Users have fallen for two months running. Far be it for me to suggest the pricing plan is an attempt at stopping the haemorrhaging (listening to the Open Letter a year ago might have been more productive) of members, and since May 2007, although registered users have almost doubled from 6.8m to 13.1m, Active Users and Premiums have stayed flat in that time, there is zero growth that counts, (and neatly explains why Cory went and Phil is stepping down as CEO)m, and by devaluing their investment by almost half, LL is attempting to keep established users in, because they can’t keep new users, and that’s because of support and performance issues, not lack of Havok or WL or other shinies.

      A whole new continent ready to go? When already the asset servers and dbs fall over every hour? How can you support a new continent? Hold on, it’s ready, and can be sold automatically once the web gizmo I added. So it’s *ALREADY* plugged in. Do you think it’s wise to have done that with all the other stuff at once? Do you think it might be plugging that extra load into an already failing asset server system might have actually caused all the problems of the last 3 weeks? Doh.

      I mean you need to do Coding 101, Networking 101, Databases 101, Maths 101, Statistics 101, Economics 101, Publicity 101, Business 101, Marketing 101, PR 101.

      I have never seen such a collection of incompetence all at once. Either that or the lunatics have completely taken over the asylum.

    94. solar Legion says:

      @ Kiya:

      I used to set all of the Catalyst settings to their maximum – it allowed for a much smoother appearance in the older viewers.

      However with this newer viewer if I do that, oddly enough my monitor goes into power save standby mode when SL loads.

      If you have altered any of the settings in the Catalyst control center, use the factory reset option it gives you.

      I did notice that while your card manufacturer is ATI, the actual card itself is reporting as a VisionTek model/brand – that may also have something to do with it.

    95. Shat Shatner says:

      @87 Montana Corleone
      To be fair, I don’t think they said 50% of the SL community, as in statistically. I think they said about half of the ppl who sent in responses to the post: The Dawning of a New Viewer: Second Life 1.19.1 Now Available! either praised or hated it.

      They also said they would not make it mandatory until a vast majority were seeing improvements.

      * In all fairness, I don’t think its actually 50% of the SL community or this blog would have filled up on the first day.

      I am interested to know what percentage of the actual community is having problems though.

    96. Vivienne says:

      Hard to tell. ALL mac users must have massive problems, if they do not know about that fix, even the newest sytems, tho these may take it as being “natural pgrade loss”, grin*.

      And I bet no GPU less powerful than the x800 ATI and the nVidia 6800 atre able to render atmospheric shaders AT ALL, while the performance of the client with these shaders enabled is not so much worse than before. But “before” average fps in SL, according to LL stats, were only 10-15, anyway…sooo

      Apart from the latest, really powerful PCI_E cards i think only a very few systems can run atmospheric shaders with more than maybe 10 fps average. And this is certainly not the stuff digital dreams for more than a handful of people are made of.

      And watching LL reaction over the past year or more, they only react in case of sheer customer panic usually, IF they react at all. You know. And this time they did react, And it was the right decision.

      But this does not make Windlight as it is now a better option.

    97. Vivienne says:

      Correction, wanted to point out that…

      …the performance of the client with these shaders DISABLED is not so much worse than before…

    98. Jo says:

      As someone who spends quite a lot of money a month on this game and sells items that are textured. I am really disappointed with the new viewer. Skins, textures, sculpties and fabrics all look very dull and jaded now. I would prefer to have the objects properly lit up how they were created in their programs, than pop my head up every so often look at a nice sunset. The landscape is stunning they have done a tremendous job! But I think it should be an option, I can’t control my customer’s settings so the work I and other creator’s put in the game is put on the shade.

    99. Vivienne says:

      @ Jo

      We pointed the problm of totally unacceptable indoor lighting and inadequate rendering of anything else but skies and water out since MONTHS, since this was in the works. There are forums full of discussions. Nothing really happened.

    100. I’d like to note here that despite what everyone seemed to be saying in the podcast; it _IS_ possible to script the Windlight glow effect. Just use the following line:

      llSetPrimitiveParams([25, ALL_SIDES, 0.1]);

      Note the use of 25, since a PRIM_GLOW constant doesn’t exist yet, the floating point number is identical to the glow setting in the texture tab.

    101. Lina Pussycat says:

      @Vivienne far from the most powerful in fact an 8600 which is far from the most powerful pci-e can run a good deal of stuff and probably better then my card this can be had for about 99 usd for 256 mb version and about 130-140 for 512 mb version in their GT version… I’d imagine most stuff with proper Shader 2.0 support would likely run the Atmospheric shaders….

      Nvidia has been good about tossing up new mid range cards that are coming pretty close to the higher end cards in terms of Performance. The 8800 (512 or 1024 mb editions) is a Prime Example. The 512 Mb Edition can run about 210 (and there will probably be a lil more of a price drop soon) This case can actually match the more expensive 8800 GTX at times and has even beat it in some bench marks (though its not able to tri-sli) It’s still the best bang for the buck on the market atm…

      AMD has been good about making their processors cheaper for budget builders (ok the performance isnt as good as Intel’s but you save some $$$)

      The point of the matter is you dont need the best of the best to run SL (ok 10-15 FPS on average isnt acceptable to some people who arnt used to SL…) My old computer went about a 1 1/2 years ago (i was still running an Geforce MX440….) i didnt have the money to build a brand new system 100% up to date so i went around to local stores and online and got what i could afford that i was sure would work.

      I ended up with this sytem and its been good to me…. However its getting to the point where to upgrade it I’d need to ebay parts and frankly once the manufacturers of the parts stop selling them and even take them off the site tis hard to really think ohh gee hey i’ll buy the highest card i can for my current system…. It turns into I need to build a whole new system

      However I personally try to upgrade every 2 years about and its getting time to upgrade soon anyways So i’m using my tax return to build a new box… One thing to anyone going to dell etc to buy a computer… Your overpaying badly…The system im building is running me about 1310 (Thats a full ssytem minxu monitor…) Comparable dell runs at at least 2 grand…. And i hear ohhh but its hard to build a computer alot…

      Take the time and learn -.-. If you can upgrade the graphics card you can build a full computer…. Anyways i Digress… Yes things could of went smoother but bumps in the client when a newer rendering system is introduced are to be expected….

      I dont get the entire “bland” argument. Its less bland now then it was before. before everything was lit like we were indoors…. Now you have control over it…. If you dont like the sun bouncing off you toss the sun/moon color down all the way or low and adjust around that….

      There is no way to fix indoor lighting implemented atm… And there wasnt previously…. The only thing that is happened is lighting is more realistic from the sun etc then it used to be and the people that like their skins to look perfect, almost entirely flat almost like you wore to much cover up or something are now whining (people that wore face lights) I dont get the whine about lighting its no diff now except that the sun has more of a bearing….Which is easily adjustable…..

      There are future plans for shadows to be implemented so indoor lights is easier to get a concept on etc. But this is gunna require a bit more resources…. People need to just stop complaining about lighting and try to make a setting they like. My direct point is that people are complaining because their avatars have “age lines” now…. Thats the only real complaint i’ve seen and its just overtly silly….

      Indoor lighting could be better yes but its no different then it was before so arguing the point is kind of moot to begin with. Cuz the sun pokes thru its horrible? Sun and lighting has always been a factor in SL that has been the same indoors or outdoors…

    102. Vivienne says:

      Lina, I think even the most linden of all lindens has a good smile when he or she reads you posts.

      But don´t expect they pay you for that kind of entertainment.

      😉

    103. Lina Pussycat says:

      My posts are serious the comical ones are the people that complain over better lighting just because it makes them look slightly diff or whatever. OMG an age line every body run!!!! The reason i say its stupid to complain is simply because it is. There are many things you can do to adjust it and the people unwilling to do so are frankly in my book just lazy.

      Its not hard to do at all you jsut slide some things around etc….Its a shame performance dropped for some people but when the card is lower end (just above minimum specs) its bound to happen.

      Everybody is always so quick to pounce on the linden’s anytime they dont like something. Even if the vast majority loved what they did the people that hate it would try and say the vast majority. They are bound to get mixed feed back and it helps them improve things but some of the complaints as to why windlight is bad are just ridiculous.

      The whole lighting debate indoor vs outdoor is an entirely moot argument as i’ve said many times. Neither one has ever existed in SL. You’d be like full bright outside then non full bright inside or bake on shadows… The lighting model was bland and used techniques that are quite ordinary and just blah. The new model is more accurate but still suffers from its predecessor of not having proper shadows for indoors or outdoors this has always been a factor in SL in the almost 3 years I’ve been here.

      The way people got around it was texturing. Now the sunlight breaks thru the buildings and yeah it can look ugly at times but, At the saime time if you hate it so much you can adjust it quite easily enough. Stated above a Low Sun/Moon color will pretty much make any sunlight color effects go Poof…Then just adjust the ambient lighting and some of the atmosphere and clouds and presto…

      Its just people Dont want to have to do that at all. Thats all I’m seeing. No matter if they can fix it themselves or not they expect LL to hand it to them on a silver platter but that doesnt always work. If people arnt willing to learn then people can teach them but i think really people should go out and learn a little something about SL….

      I’m like this because all i hear on here is whining day in and day out from people that really dont grasp the overall concept that this is adding in. Its more realistic. People are used to the old way and people naturally fear adapting to change and when change happens they scurry off and whine about it.

      Maybe the linden’s do smile because maybe they actually feel good that someone out there gets the overall point? If everything were handed to us in a Silver Platter in SL this might as well just be the sims online. Again if you take some time to adjust stuff its actually quite easy!!

    104. Lina Pussycat says:

      Also as a Side note… I’m well aware of a good deal of the problems in Windlight and have used it since the very early stages….. Avatar importers creates problems for some people as does hardware skinning. Both of which have a work around which is simply shutting them off. An older graphics card on a system that uses VRAM heavily for its GUI is not going to run Windlight with some of the more advanced things properly….

      As you lower the memory SL can allocate to itself you also lower performance capabilities that SL is gunna be able to use smoothly… This was the overall flaw in design of the OS i was talking about. This is true of Vista, OSX , and Linux distrobutions with Compiz Fusion. The reason i said its a flaw in the OS may be misunderstood… Its a poor design choice ot actually take what is rendered on the screen and force it to use 3d resources which use up more of your GPU’s VRAM….

      Again i was trying to explain that you dont need the best computer in the world to Run SL. My computer is far from great… I have the equivalent of an Intel Pentium D 2.4 Ghz (Amd Sempron 2400+ at close to 1.7 ghz) and it along with a 6800 GS (which is prolly really cheap…) and 2 gigs of 400 mhz DDR ram run SL just fine. This is an inexpensive system and runs the stuff I normally use quite well.

      In fact i once ran a game on Top of SL’s normal client and didnt realize i had till i had logged out of the other game. I noticed no real drop in performance… Im just noting that to note that you dont need a beast for SL.

    105. NotHappy says:

      Thank you for this forum. Unfortunately, SL turned off comments to the “We want your feedback” blog and town meeting scheduled for tomorrow by Pastrami Linden. I’ll be at work during the meeting and will not be able to attend. Here are my .02 cents…

      Will you please make an earlier viewer version (sans Windlight) available for download on the website?

      I am running the new Viewer 1.19.1 (4) – and I cannot go back to a previous version because I didn’t download a 1.19.x version. I was very happy with the 1.18.53 viewer.

      Machine 1- work laptop:
      Different colored huge Triangles across the screen- this is horrid- I can’t see!
      Slow and laggy, windows also freeze
      Problems with prim attachments
      Laptop Specs: 2Ghz machine, 2Gb ram, Windows XP, ATI Radeon 256 MB video card

      Machine 2- home desktop
      Slow and laggy in places that used to be fine, windows also freeze
      Problems with prim attachments
      Desktop Specs: 1.6Ghz machine, 1Gb ram, Windows 2000, nVidia geforce fx 5600 video card

      I also miss the old moon rises/sunsets… the colors were gorgeous. I do not see these anymore. Why wouldn’t the sun and moon rises/sets be beautiful like they used to be? That is not an improvement.

      How do I silence the new “tennis volley” grunts when my avatar lands? Why did you add something like that? Horrible.

      Even worse: I just bought my first land before this happened, yet I am so unhappy with my experience on SL now with this new viewer, I may have to leave. Why should I pay tiers for something I cannot use?

      Windlight should be a graphics option that we choose at login, or perhaps the graphics settings once in. It makes pretty water, that’s about it. So, it’s good for real estate sales pictures.

      Again, the new Windlight viewer should be an option, not forced upon those of us who do not own, nor can afford a costly computer upgrade.

      Will you please make an earlier viewer version (sans Windlight) available for download on the website?

      I am in mourning for a great place named SL that I used to LOVE and ENJOY and that I brought new members to enjoy with me. PLEASE HELP ME love SL again.

    106. @44 – My video card is listed as supported by LL (ATI x700) so the ball is in their court, not mine.

    107. solar Legion says:

      HatHead, if you’ve updated your drivers and made any alterations in the Catalyst Control Center, the ball is in your court. I’d recommend the same thing I told another user: reset the CCC

    108. End Blogg says:

      @99 Not happy
      Actually they don’t turn them off I’ve noticed that they all max out at 150 post. Just as this blog should when it reaches 150.

    109. @92 Well, sure more people are going to complain than are happy, but 150 comments limit (it used to be 500) is peanuts. But even so, if 50% are reporting problems, and don’t forget, that was coming in to support and the JIRA too, I wouldn’t make it mandatory next day.

      It’s like looking at the new 1.20 RC. They state it doesn’t work with Apple’s Mighty Mouse (there you go again for not following standard rules) which must pretty much be almost every Mac out there capable of running SL apart from laptops, and that the Tools Menu is not available. What? Why is such a dysfunctional viewer a RC? That should still be a beta. So why 1.20? What else are they shoving in to further degrade performance? Or is this an attempt to distance themselves from the disastrous 1.19 viewer?

      Oh, and now Lina in her wisdom recommends everybody learns how to build their own PC just to keep up with a game. That really is going to spread and grow SL lots. LMFAO.

    110. Lina Pussycat says:

      I’m not saying everyone should thats ridiculous but people shouldnt let their hardware get so outdated that the company almost no longer supports said card or doesnt sell said card anymore. And pardon but apple is the one not following standards with the might mouse i mean really a 1 button mouse? That can create issues in and of itself at times but i’ll not get into that debate…

      My point was people act like computer hardware is so awkwardly expensive that no one other then people that put all their money into it can do it. I’m well aware some people cant afford to upgrade their systems. And no I’m not saying everyone should go out and learn.

      Your one of these people that act like its the hardest thing in the world. Really come on now you install a few wires, slide a few cards in slots and set up the bios all of which are in the manual. But alot of people complain that SL runs poorly but then their hardware is barely even sold or even manufactured anymore…

      What im suggesting is rather then being a bunch of whiny people the end user actually try and see if the performance Loss may be something on their end. Games Progress…. Entropia Universe for instance is rewriting the entire game in CryEngine 2 and making it a big update even though its likely to alienate most of their user base. There are people out there that want progress to happen and there are people who dont.

      I do think that LL should make sure Hardware skinning and avatar impostors are off by default because that is where some of these bugs like disfigured avatars , triangles on screen (this one can be caused by a high res though to…) etc…

      Also Motnana have you looked at some complains about Windlight? Im simply saying some of them are overtly ridiculous and have nothing at all to do with tis functionality just the vanity of some people. Trying to run above the recommended settings will also probably result in a lapse in performance …..

      I just think alot of people whine about something before they investigate it. You wont hear 50% of the user base complain really since most of them arnt involved in any SL web presence including this blog. Yes the client has some bugs but all software has some bugs. It also has some things that still need to be optimized and I’m sure the windlight team is working diligently on this stuff…

      Keep in mind till a client hits widely like this it is harder to piinpoint what is a major bug or not since people are using diff clients etc. I’ll admit there are problems but this is the first main windlight release maybe give it a lil more time before going off on it and see if the stuff is fixed next update?

    111. Lina Pussycat says:

      Also the 1.20 RC doesnt work with MM currently but they are fixing it in the next RC. The RC is test software..

    112. Kyder Ling says:

      Such long comments, D:

    Comments are closed.