Second Life Simulator v1.20.0.83683 Rollout Followup

Overview Of Results

The deployment of the new Second Life Simulator v1.20.83683 was completed early this morning. Overall, the process went smoothly, and the general reports we have gotten are positive. We also learned some things in the process, and I wanted to take this opportunity to pass on some information about where we are and what our next steps look like, and to provide an opportunity to hear more feedback on the update.

We discovered partway through the update process that the deploy script in use had not been updated to incorporate a bug fix. I apologize for the inconvenience of having a “no notice restart” for those who were affected by this issue. For the first part of the rollout, simulators were being shut down and restarted with the five minute restart warnings. As soon as this issue was realized, the deploy was halted, we picked up the fixed version of the deploy scripting, and continued from that point.

Some regions have found unexpected behaviors, and as posted before the deploy, we expected that this would happen. Even with a large scale beta test, we still know that we could not test everything that has been built across all of Second Life.

If I could ask for one thing, and only one, it would be “If you see something misbehaving after the update, please do not panic! Report it as a bug – as described below – and we will work through the list and deploy a set of updates over the next few weeks with issue resolutions as soon as we can.”

Many of the issues found have already been addressed and others are being worked on. We are here and continuing to work through issues as they are discovered, so please do not assume that “this is it” – the team is still working through the new issues uncovered by bringing the new simulator to all of Second Life.

Did We Test Everything In Second Life? Is That Even Possible?

As mentioned in earlier blog posts, although we ran an extensive and long public beta program, we know that not every vendor opted-in to participate and not every product could have been tested. Some products have been found during the rollout that are not working correctly, and we are working to resolve issues as we become aware of them.

Please remember that if you find something that does not work with the new simulator, the best way to handle this is to let us know about it. We can and will work to try to resolve issues that we know about, and all I ask is that you take up your part of this process, and report the issue in the public issue tracker at http://jira.secondlife.com.

How Do I Report A Simulator Problem?

  • Open http://jira.secondlife.com, and log in with your Second Life login credentials
  • Click “Create Issue”
  • Set Project to “2 Second Life Service – SVC”
  • Set Issue Type to “Bug”

    jira project and issue type

  • Click Next
  • Type a one-line description of the issue in the Summary line
  • Explain the details of the issue in the description section. Please include the following:
    • Name, version and creator of any product involved in the bug
    • Lo cation where the bug occurs (for instance “Ahern 128,128,0”)
    • Set Component to typically Physics, Scripting or Performance

      set component and affects version

    • Step-by-step description of how to make the problem appear (Please assume that we do not know how to operate products that you own, as we may not have seen the particular item before – and i f you can help us to focus on the bug fix rather than learning a product, we can get the fix done faster!)
    • Which viewer were you using when you found the bug? (Open About > Second Life…, copy the first text line and paste it into the text box)
  • Click “Create” at the bottom of the form

Common Questions and Issues

Q: I’ve heard that there are new rules that govern how prims are linked in the new simulator. Where can I find more information on this?

A: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linkability_Rules

Q: Ok – that linkability rules page makes no sense to me… Can you explain in plain English what the linkability rules are about?

A: (Long one… sorry this is actually the shortest answer I could think of!)

Whether prims are linkable in Second Life has always been governed by formulas. The Havok1 formulas were based on a “cube model”, where things had to fit within the cube to link. The problem with that model is that if you rotate the item on rez – things at the extreme boundaries would fall off and be non-linkable.

The new model is based on a sphere, so that no matter which orientation the item is rezzed in, the previously linked parts will still link.

The rest of the details of “how many”, “of what size” and “how far apart” are mathematical formulae that are by nature inter-related. If I were to simplify them into a sentence or two we’d get avalanched by people who say “well here’s an example that doesn’t match the rule”… which is why I have been less comfortable with a text cliff-notes version.

The bottom line is that things that used to link in the old simulator should link in the new one. If you build something in the new one it might not link in the old one. However that issue now becomes moot as we roll out the new simulator to the whole Second Life system.

Q: I am seeing performance problems on my region that didn’t seem to be present before the update. What could be causing this?

A: There are a few types of operations that seem to cause more performance impact with the new physics engine than the old one. In particular very complex shapes that are rezzed repeatedly and quickly can take more of a toll on performance than with the old simulator.

Products that we have seen create this problem include:

  • Some (not all) fish rezzers
  • Some (not all) wave generators
  • Some (not all) special effects generators
  • Some (not all) vehicles, in particular complex vehicles

If you are seeing lower performance on your region after the update, please check the following things first:

  1. If you are the region owner, click World > Region/Estate… in your viewer. Then click the Debug tab. Click “Get Top Scripts” and then click the column header titled “Time” twice, so that the list is sorted with the highest time at the top.If you see one or a few rows at the top with script times that are much higher than the rest of the entries, these scripts may be responsible for much of the performance impact. In many cases, I have seen one or two scripts be reponsible for a large percentage of the performance issues. Often they are one of the categories listed above.As an experiment, try disabling or derezzing those high script time scripts, and see if the region performance recovers. If it does, please file a jira, naming those scripts and the numeric results, so that we can look at how to optimize for them – or to talk to the builders to have them create an optimized version for the new simulator.
  2. Watch the “Time” section at the bottom of the Simulator section of the Statistics Bar to see which time components are the largest, and which vary the most. If you see a clear pattern, please file a jira explaining the numbers you see here, along with any script findings above.

In a few cases, we have identified a single scripted item that is causing a performance problem, and been able to optimize for it without changing the product. In others, the product may need to be enhanced to be more efficient on the current simulator.

We know of a few regions that are having performance problems unrelated to a specific script, and are working with them directly to research the issues and find ways to improve performance on those regions.

Q: Why can I not climb up stairs that I could climb up before?

A: The new simulator uses a more realistic avatar climbing model. It uses a location at about the standard height knee point as the height of barrier that is considered to be a “wall” for avatar stair climbing behavior. If stairs are too tall, the avatar will not be able to climb them.

Q: Why are some vehicle very fast on the new simulator?

A: After many weeks of discussions with vehicle builders, it was decided to raise the maximum “script motor speed” in Second Life to 256 m/S. This is far faster than the previous motor limit. In order to “get around” the previous lower limit, some vehicle makers would add impulse pushes to the vehicle, which could force it to go faster than the motor speed setting. Now, with the higher motor limit, you get the max motor speed plus these extra pushes, which in some cases can result in a very surprising top speed.

This is a case where the community spoke clearly in office hours and other discussions, and the builders said that they wanted to be able to do better vehicles in the future, with better motor control, and would live with the idea that some existing vehicles might have speed problems. Some vendors are planning to do updates that will be tuned specifically for the new motor characteristics, and others are release whole new product lines to take advantage of these relaxed limits.

Q: I have some other product that is not behaving after the update. What should I do?

A: The first thing to do in this situation is to contact the vendor who makes the product. In many cases, their current version will work fine with the new simulator, or they are planning an update that is tuned to the new simulator’s behavior.

If the product vendor has an issue or bug that needs fixing in order to get the product working correctly, please encourage them to file a jira to explain the problem, get involved with the development team, attend office hours, or otherwise let us know what the problem is and what sort of resolution would be helpful. The Havok4 team will be continuing to fix these issues for the next several weeks directly, before turning the simulator over to on-going support.

Q: I am a product vendor, and my product does not work correctly on the new simulator. What should I do?

A: Please file a jira describing the problem behavior, and if possible, include a sample simplified script to demonstrate the issue (so that we don’t have to pick through thousands of lines of your code to find the 20 lines that illustrate the bug 🙂 . If sample code is not possible, we will work through the existing product to figure out the issues, but it will take longer to resolve problems this way.

Please attend office hours if you can, so that we can talk directly about any issues and discuss how to best resolve them. Office hours are held at the center of “Content to Hover” on Tuesdays at 11:00-12:00 PST and Thursdays at 17:00-18:00 PST.

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Havok4 Program Manager

This entry was posted in -Miscellaneous, Announcements & News, Bugs & Fixes. Bookmark the permalink.

151 Responses to Second Life Simulator v1.20.0.83683 Rollout Followup

  1. Just wanted to poke ya a little about the C:SI kick bug 🙂 It’s not resolved, and we are unsure how to proceed to create a workaround from our end, since the relevant physics rules have changed quite significantly.

  2. Kudos on the informative post. It must be said you’re very good with blogposts, Sidewinder. Also the additional comments are very much appreciated. So thanks for all that! 😀

  3. ab Vanmoer says:

    Surprised nobody has mentioned this, but it seems like a MAJOR oversight, The second life GMT clock has been off by about 58 minutes the whole day,

  4. @2 – Yes, Sidewinder is a model Linden in many ways. In fact, I think the Havok 4 team is a model team as well.

  5. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Sidewinder seems to be the only Linden who actually cares enough to listen to the clients and tell us exactly what is happening – kudo’s to you, sidewinder. And thankyou for the update as to what’s going on…. it’s appreciated. Now if only the rest of the linden team could be as nice….

  6. Chrysala Desideri says:

    for a few hours now not been able to log in or access secondlife.com website… is it just me has this out of the blue? rest of the web works fine.. 😐

  7. Chaz Longstaff says:

    Thank you for all your hard work. It mustn’t have been easy.

  8. Bryon says:

    “The Havok4 team will be continuing to fix these issues for the next several weeks directly, before turning the simulator over to on-going support.”

    Isn’t the Havok4 team bound to resolve all 145+ JIRA reported bugs until around Christmas which is about the time it should take according to the previous fixing rate before turning this to support?

    Could you clarify the meaning of your statement “turning the simulator over to on-going support.”? Thanks

  9. U M says:

    Sit taegets going to be fixed as well? There are times where older sit targets results as sit on without sitting on the pose in questen.

    Again Thank you sidewinder being upfront with the problems and the resulted fixes

    Usagi

  10. Yvon Broek says:

    on the test grid we could build to 4096 meter 🙂

    why can’t we now ?????

  11. FireFox Bancroft says:

    I don’t know what kind of pot people are smoking these days but I wish I could get some of it, Glow IS scriptable, It’s been scriptable since they updated the servers last RC rollout. It is in llSetPrimitiveParams.

    llSetPrimitiveParams([25, ALL_SIDES, 1.0]); // this will turn on glow for the object.

    I’ve got lamps and ceiling fans working with scripted glow effect when they’re on and when they’re off the glow effect disables. There’s a bit of lag time between the light going off and glow switching to 0 but it works. Most of the mainland sims have the new server update, if the island your on doesn’t have the new server, ask the person running the island to update.

  12. Orobin Thor says:

    Just a comment. Since I downloaded the new version, I have crashed 3 tmes in 2 1/2 hours. JUst letting u guys know.

  13. Carrah Rossini says:

    Well, this is a showstopper:

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1531

    right now, I’m standing on top of a hollow dimpled sphere which is solid. This has been opened in february and made it to the live grid. Basically I’m at a loss now, and I just made a new vehicle using dimpled spheres in the cockpit…

    I’m really at a loss at the moment…

  14. Nelle says:

    Is there way to get old viewer back? i updated didn’t know it will change all the world around.. why not keep two viewers i mean most used not windlight one!!! please help i want old one back *cries!!!

  15. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @10 Yvon: The build ceiling will be expanded on Second Life, but will not be active until a viewer update that includes the new build height limit. /Sidewinder

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @10 U M: Sit targeting has been adjusted several times and is where we think it will land. Sit targeting in the earlier simulator was also somewhat difficult, and it turns out that a lot of products would show quite varied sit targeting in different scenarios. /Sidewinder

  17. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @13 Carrah: We’ll look at this issue again. I know that the general topic has been discussed multiple times throughout the project. Regards, Sidewinder

  18. Darien Caldwell says:

    @13, I’m standing in a hollow dimpled sphere right now, and see no problem. can you give some specific prim parameters, I’d really like to see this for myself. Can’t seem to reproduce it.

  19. Tiny Mind says:

    #15 Nelle… Get USED TO IT!

    Hahahahahahahahaaa!!!!

    — A mind is a terrible waste to thing.

  20. Carrah Rossini says:

    @darien

    try 10x10x10, 95% hollow, .38 start, .55 end

  21. Darien Caldwell says:

    @20, yes, I see now, if the dimples close in on each other it happens. :\

  22. Sweet V says:

    i am seeing degraded performance in my sim now since update but alas it is mainland so what do we do i cant touch any of the god items on the sim to see whats causing this and all live help does is restart the sim i asked earlier for help and all we got was we will check on it when we have time still nothing still bad performance along with continued stale money transfers =/ hopeless filing a jira i have posted bugs since last august that havent even been looked at or any help on totally useless

  23. mandie says:

    i downloaded the new version my pc cant handle it….. the link sent me to get the otehr version back but it wont download it can comeone help plz

  24. Jaxx Tardis says:

    @4 Money Pyramid
    Shut the f’ up! That has NOTHING to do with Havok or the viewer release. stop spaming the blog posts with your BS pyramid scheme gripes! You’re not any better than a Nigerian scammer.

    Sidewinder: Check out a game called Stellar Dogfight, the ships jump off the play field now. Dunno if that’s a bug or feature though. Btw, how much heavier did avatars get? My catapults barely fling you half as far now, I had one that slammed you 1.6 sims away, now it lands at about .8

  25. Heather Goodliffe says:

    Some feedback from a content creator:

    * Would be nice to have a little more warning about the Havok update. I’d hoped you would give at least a week or two notice before forcing an update into production. Not all of us can spend countless hours testing their stuff under _every_ havok update. Please especially give significantly more advanced noticed if there are _known issues_ in the update you’re pushing that may require creators to have new versions ready.

    * Now that we have Hetgrid, perhaps you can push out updates into production more slowly as to give people time to prepare, react, and give feedback before being forced into something? The way some of the updates are done diminish the value that the content creators create (and thus limit their motivation to make significant investments) as well as the SL consumers faith that the things they buy will be worth something after the next update. Everyone would win if LL would take these things into greater account.

    * Please let us know what the priority and ETA is on fixing the known problems with the current release so that we can prioritize ourselves on what to fix/update and what to wait on.

    Thanks,
    -HG

  26. ONE PO'd RESIDENT says:

    can someone please post what is going to be done about the stale money transfers please 3 plus weeks daily solid issues with this 1000’s of unhappy customers please

    POST SOMETHING WHATS BEING DONE TO FIX THIS ISSUE WE ARE SCREAMING HERE!!!!!!!!! IS ANYONE LISTENING PLEASE TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHEN THIS WILL BE FIXED! NOT JUST A DAILY RESOLVE

  27. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @28 Heather: There were 50 office hours, several of which talked about how close the release was. There were 27 blog posts about the project, recent ones being quite clear that the release was getting closer. We labeled the last three builds “Release Candidate” RC1, RC2 and RC3, which is a clear indication that the simulator was “close to release”. We did use HetGrid to run a public Early Adopter program over the course of six months, involving over 600 regions, specifically to allow for work towards the goal of full release.

    If you have specific items that you would like to know or discuss prioritization of, please contact me, or preferably attend office hours so that open issues of importance to you can be addressed.

    Best regards,

    Sidewinder

  28. Cecilia Zheng says:

    Having problem with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams on PRIM_POSITION to move avatar position.
    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1952

    The most interesting is that the problem is not affect all sim, but more in random. And it may fix without any update to the Havok4.

    And typically that every after upgrade on beta previous time, I got complaint about it from some early adopters. And some-days after, i checked, it is already fine.

    What i know this problem should be fix on update dated Feb 13 on SVC-1239. But it may still raise some problems on each next update with random sim.

    Sincerely,
    Cecilia Zheng

  29. /me, who knows the skills & time it takes to create great, wonderful, detailed, instructions and explanations, stares in stunned silence at this blog post.

    Geeze … No, the Lindens can’t afford to keep this team forever … this team raises the bar way too high. We’re getting tooo dang spoiled!!

  30. Heather Goodliffe says:

    Regarding rolling things like this out more slowly. The ideal thing would probably be to let sim owners update at a time of their choosing either via a web based interface or a button on the estate interface in-world… along with the option to rollback if they find the update causes problems they need to report or react to in some way (much like the way the viewers are now rolled out). One might hope $300US a month for a sim would buy some control over these things.

    Thanks,
    -HG

  31. Dytska Vieria says:

    I made my jira bug report – hope you can fix the problem soon! Keep it up and dont listen to the whiners!

  32. Dwayne Oliva says:

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5982

    As requested, the Avatar ‘Gliding’ instead of walking problem.

  33. Kathy Morellet says:

    I have also encountered the hollow dimpled sphere problem today. Yesterday, I was able to pass through the dimple, today it is solid. Kinda wrecks a bit of my build.

    Added my vote and comment to
    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1531

  34. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @30 Heather: We have discussed this internally and at multiple office hours with other content creators. We discussed the implications of mixed physics engines during this project. The conclusion of the group was that it would create confusion, be difficult to manage, and require products to be version sensitive, automatically shifting optimizations as the product moved from region to region. It would also require the product manufacturers to maintain multiple code bases, with varied optimizations and increase their testing load in ensuring that the product worked properly across all simulator version currently in operation.

    The collective thinking on this at that point in time was that it would create more problems than it would solve to have a long mixed physics engine environment on the main Second Life system for this project. As a longer term goal, and perhaps for other features that are of more contained scope, a more mixed environment seemed to make sense.

    Because of the reach, depth and timing of this project, the people involved in the discussions were consistent in saying that we should not run the system for an extended period with multiple versions – other than for a public beta environment with a limited portion of the grid – as we did for the Early Adopter program.

    /Sidewinder

  35. Digital Digital says:

    Thank you for the update I am very happy with it =-)

  36. Marianne McCann says:

    There seem to be three issues most affecting me:

    – Boats sitting too low in the water in some instances, and the Swimmer not, well, swimming.

    – Huggers not hugging properly, usually putting one avvie in a “fall” animation.

    – Unsits working too well (I think), causing an avatar to not remain in motion on slides.

  37. @15 Nelle
    @24 Mandie

    You can download the earlier versions here:
    http://download-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/Second_Life_1-19-0-5_Setup.exe
    http://download-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/Second_Life_1-18-5-3_Setup.exe

    If you can’t download, send me a notecard in-world with your email address and I will email the 1.18.5.3 installer to you. I still have it on my PC.

  38. Desmond Shang says:

    Hi Sidewinder, is there any indication that a class 4 region would have difficulties with Havok 4 in any way, shape or form?

    I’ve heard people mention they had issues in class 4’s that they haven’t had in class 5 Havok 4 regions – I’m trying to nail down anyone with anything reproducible and get it in the pjira.

  39. Well pretty sure I’ve been reading every blog but I dont remember any warning us that vehicles woud be going faster.

    I tested my vehicle on day 1 of Havok4 implementation and I had to turn down all the forward / backward / rotation multipliers quite dramatically.
    Fortunately I have not got around to selling my vehicles but if I were I’d be a bit upset at not seeing a BLOG warning of this.

    This is one of these occasions where a basic and widespread change would affect almost everybody and justify singling out and BLOGGING in advance.
    Please look out for the next one .
    PS My FPS is up from 3 to 5 with Havok4 ! Woo Hoo !!!

  40. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @36 Marianne: The boat flotation height issue is being discusssed. We adjusted flotation height for one set of products, and just found out about others that appear to require contradictory handling. The solution to this is not clear at the moment.

    Another person mentioned a hugger problem, and when we checked, and had the maker of the product check, it turned out to be an avatar size issue. We have tested several huggers that seem to work fine. If you have one that is not working, please file a jira to explain what is not working with the specific product information so that we can take a look at it.

    Unsits are an interesting case technically. If you have a case that can be reproduced, please file a jira on this so that we can see what the issue is on this unsit problem.

    Thanks,

    Sidewinder

  41. Nelle says:

    Quaintly Darling merry me!!! muah!!! muah you are the best!!!

  42. I had to rebuild my nuclear reactors in the Extropia Core sim. The originals linked under Havok1 but not under Havok4 (the opposite of what the notes above about the new link rules say), and once they became unlinked, the pieces autoreturned because everything but the root prim was off-sim.

    Thankfully after a few adjustments they became linkable again. But do be aware that *sometimes* things can be linkable under the old rules but not the new. In this case, there were megaprims involved so I knew they might cause trouble down the road. They’re just scenery anyhow, but I was glad I was able to adjust the distances of the prims and get them linking again.

  43. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @38 Desmond: There is nothing in particular that would cause problems on a Class 4 Havok4 region. The Class 4 servers have less RAM and do not run the simulator quite as quickly, but that is not a basic functional difference. /Sidewinder

  44. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @39 Al: I remember writing the post that explained that we had increased the motor speed, it certainly was published in public office hours transcripts, as well as discussed in multiple office hours. /Sidewinder

  45. Reiko Fimicoloud says:

    I’m very pleased with the amount of work being done on the servers since the last few months. There’s new updates every other week almost (which can be annoying, but it’s worht it!)

    My only complaint is that with each new update, SL requires more grunt..
    Which is not something Linden Labs can actually fix 😛

    Some of us geeky poor NZ students play this and dont have the best computers 😛

    (Did i mention SL combined wiht my 2 dfferent speeds of ram, and SATA internal … and crappy graphics card killed my laptop? 😛 )

    Anyways kudos to Sidewinder and the Havok4 team!

  46. Desmond Shang says:

    Thanks for the amazingly rapid response Sidewinder – I’ve not submitted anything as I suspected non-Havok 4 issues (garden variety bugs). If I can reproduce anything against Havok 4 you’ll know right away in the pjira.

    This has been an *awesome* rollout; the only issues I see across 34 active sims are two instances of delinked prims (and they were pretty iffy linksets in the first place anyway). The one sim that was having trouble staying up in Havok 4 (possibly for unrelated reasons) you guys sorted out somehow in the wee hours – it’s running great now. Congrats to you and the team!

    Des

  47. Heh, good job on the smooth rollout. And kudos sidewinder for knocking down all the whiners who don’t bother to read the blog!

  48. Nadine Neddings says:

    Sidewinder, do you EVER sleep? >.< hehehe

    I’ve got to say, noob as I may be, I am impressed with the H4 rollout. Far fewer bugs than I ever would have guessed for such a massive upgrade. Very nice. 🙂

  49. Attica Bekkers says:

    great job onthe roll out. I have cognative disability (Dyslexia) and my camera view changed. It became a bit more like mouselook in undefinable ways . A lot of others have reported the same. This might reduce many peoples enjoyment of sl without them even being aware of the source of the diffculty, and may lead to customer loss. Can this be addressed?

  50. Sal Salubrius says:

    I agree 100% with comment number 26 by ONE PO’d RESIDENT! All i see constantly is what new great stuff you are achieveing for people that have brand new computers with very good graphics cards! I couldn’t care less how pretty things look when I can’t teleport, can’t buy things, crash and am locked out of SL for an hour whilst you try to sort out the problems YET AGAIN!

  51. Tegg B says:

    Well done Havok team, thanks for your attention to all the fine details that didn’t go wrong too 🙂

  52. Dante Moreua says:

    I’m one of those who desire basic stability over new features and this sounds like it might help with stability while laying good ground for growth. Thanks for all your hard work and excellent communication! LL please take note that your customers appreciate this approach.

  53. Heather Goodliffe says:

    @Sidewinder

    * Please also keep in mind that some of us have day jobs as well and can not make office hours during normal business hours.

    * Re the roll out, I agree it wouldn’t make sense to have all sims running different versions for extended periods of time. But it does seem to make sense to give people some flexibility in when it happens and if they need to roll back while their issues are resolved. The early adopter process was a big step forward, though not quite the same thing… (my only options as a sim owner are currently, suffer through the early problems, or get a forced update later).

    * Regarding warning, yes, I’m aware there were many meetings and blog postings and release candidates. So many so that it becomes time consuming to keep up and test under every version, I believe Havok4 has been in the works pretty much since I joined SL.. it still wouldn’t hurt to give more than a days warning before forcing the final update if that’s how you’re going to do it. (If the blog said, the roll out would happen next week, that would’ve been more ideal to give people enough time.)

    * Regarding prioritizing issues, perhaps we can start with the following?
    * http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1272
    * People riding surf boards are almost completely under water while paddling
    * http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1974
    * Perhaps it’s also time to look into SL handling repeatedly rezzing the same object better? Considering the hit Havok4 takes now.
    * http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1660
    * Some people have reported their object falling
    * http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1179

    Thanks,
    ~HG~

  54. Garmin Kawaguichi says:

    Very interesting post. It concerns 1.20.0.83683 but I found 1.20.0.83892 servers (Selenia). What are the differences?

  55. I have one region (Kikai Enkai) with serious performance trouble since the H4 rollout (it behaved great before it), and nobody seems to be able to find the problem (Matthew Linden said everything was fine). SIM fps dropping below 10, time dilation to 0.20 every few minutes. And no, no temp rezzers, no high scripts, turning off scripts, collisions and physics doesn’t help either. It’s a brand new open space region with only a 1000 prims on it 😦

  56. JayR Cela says:

    Sidewinder / I first came to SL September 2005 / I have never ~ ever seen such professionalism and dedication as you and your team have provided the CUSTOMERS ( please notice the use of capitol letters ) of this grand experiment know as Second Life. If the rest of LL would look to you and your team as an example of what CUSTOMER Service is all about I believe there will be no stopping SL becoming a De-Facto standard within the emerging Virtual World economy. You all definately deserve a raise in pay, if not a whopping bonus lump sum $$$ reward for your work. I vote the Havok4 team employee’s of the years 2007 / 2008.
    I sure hope you don’t burn out on us

    JayR Cela :_)

  57. Medhue Simoni says:

    Sidewinder, i dont normally like seeing comments that pat people on the back, but u really deserve it man. I do think tho that LL posts alot of blogs and to really expect people to read them all is kinda crazy. It would be nice to get the blogs as a IM inworld. Just a thought. But Please to consider releasing a non windlight viewer. I really feel LL underestimates how many residents use laptops, and any laptop under $1000 is not going to have sl look good at all. I have a good desktop to use but i dont know any1 else that uses a desktop except for a couple hardcore gaming friends.

  58. @53 … 1.20.0.83892 is the rolling restart update that went out in the weee early hours of today whatever today is … my insomnia has worn off … ya’ll have fun …

  59. Detox Watanabe says:

    Lately I found a lot of people are blaming the current Database issues on the Havok4 rollout. Why is that? We had the same issues before the rollout XD

    @57 (Medhue): I did comparison on my laptop and had a better lowest framerate (in stress situation) in WL. The average framerate was better too. My laptop isnt made for gaming, its made for mobile office working btw, it even has a non gaming grade ATI graphics card XD.
    Laptop graphics cards usually dont support many things normal pc cards do, and therefore a bit of tweaking is needed. either this, or buy a laptop with a gaming grade graphics card (e.g. GT/GTS/GTX series of nvidia. _NOT_ GS ;)).
    You cant just set the slider on medium or high and expect it to work.

    @50 (Sal Salubrius):
    YOU DONT NEED THE NEWEST HARDWARE TO RUN SL SMOOTHLY.
    I mean it.
    my “SL machine” is >2 years old, _you cant even buy the parts anymore_ and I have no issues whatsoever running SL with a good framerate (for the geeks: its a one fan cooled silent pc with a lot of passive cooling, and reduced clocking even).

    Are you people trying to run it on typewriters?
    Nowadays its easy(and cheap) to get a somewhat decent PC to run SL, just dont buy a machine made for running office programs (or waste your OS with malware and bad drivers).

    Look at PC games… if a pc game doesnt run on your pc you dont blame the maker either. you go upgrade your system. sometimes a new graphics card or more ram does the job, for prices less than 100USD.

    if you need help go to a good PC tech forum, describe your budget and your need (second life, gaming) and they will probably help you, if you ask nicely ;).

  60. george says:

    i was camping over the several days and i was never paid for though the owner said i earned it, i spent a good 3 hours of my time earning the 70 dollars at 2 linden per 15 minutes. if i sound upset well i am

  61. mant says:

    Im wondering about HUGE PRIMS and there impact to the physics engine on havok4 if any? wil they cause any odd behaviour or any added perfromance issues on havok4 or will they just behave like reguler prims i saw some discusion on it a while back but could not find it.

  62. Sonja Felisimo says:

    Hi Sidewinder

    First off……………well done and a big big kiss your work is first rate and your blogs outstanding 😉

    Love Havok 4 only found a few small problems……scripts not running properly……..solved this by resetting them and all work fine.

    One strange thing though….when i hover just above water i slowly start to sink and eventually disappear under the water. This happens when i use my AO and without AO……i saw some else post on th blog yesterday about this problem so maybe you are working on it.

    Again big thx sidewinder and the havok team you guys really are the best. Lets hope the rest of your Linden colleagues take notice and learn something from you guys 😉

    BIG BIG KISS AND HUG 🙂

  63. ab Vanmoer says:

    **** SORRY FOR SHOUTING, BUT I THINK THIS IS CRITICAL AND URGENT ****

    THE GMT CLOCK IS ALMOST AN HOUR OFF and slowly drifting even further away from the correct time, So many scripts rely on the GMT clock for timekeeping, rental periods etc

    It has been off for most of the day, I realise this is not a support forum, but this really cant wait for the two to three days typical support turn around and besides I would assume that it is the new sim rollout that broke it.
    Thanks

  64. cat magellan says:

    @62 Sonja, yes, that is happening to me as well and my sim was in the Havok4 early adopter regions, but this “bug” is new.

    Thanks for all, Sidewinder. You’re the BEST Linden ever! 🙂

  65. Roy Blanchard says:

    RE: “IT WAS EXTENSIVELY DISCUSSED IN OFFICE HOURS”. I dare say there were about 20 people involved and maybe 100 read about it afterward. PLEASE, if it’s something we should all know, post it in a public place instead of hiding it inside the mess that is the second life website! ALSO: Unless I log off of SL and back on, I will probably NOT know there are new blog posts. IF YOU PUT A WARNING ON THE BLOG NOT TO BUY OR REZ, POST IT IN-WORLD TOO!

    Thankies

  66. Sonja Felisimo says:

    @64 Cat i have just noticed that since the rollout of the patched havok server this problem has stopped for me 🙂 🙂

    So sorry sidewinder ignore my last post…..hihi……you guys were qiucker than me……..AWESOME 😉

    Hugs nad Kisses all round

  67. *sigh* Linking continues to be a problem. My Big Rocket on my pad in the SW corner of Extropia Core links just fine, but pieces of it unlink every time the sim is rebooted. One fin returns to my lost and found, and the other just gets deleted.

  68. Great work Sidewinder, I just put in a salary increase for you and the team.. I will however request you stay on bug fixes for 4 weeks instead of 2.. sowwy ;O)-

  69. bernardsangil says:

    Anyone having transactions issues?

  70. Detox Watanabe has many good points. Please read his answer carefully.

    I’m using Windlight since it was available for testing (months):
    – it improved SL performances on my old Windows box (where I keep details at a low level)
    – it improved SL experience on my new Linux box (where I keep details at the best level)

    About Havok 4 – we use it on Vulcano sim since February. Our chaotic sim is filled with prims, megaprims, scripted objects and more – I can say the new physics engine improved our performances and stability.

    Sidewinder, thanks for fixing bugs and answering our questions, we appreciate it.

  71. Tegen Barzane says:

    I’m having problems with some larger vehicles in that on unsit the av is not pushed out of them as before but stays trapped.

  72. Public Enemy says:

    I absolutely love the new viewer 🙂
    Well it has some minor bugs but I’m sure that Linden Lab(tm) will fix them a.s.a.p. – The new viewer made me jump in my chair and I did a happy dance – so I’m really shaking my head about all those who just complain and do not add any productive comment in here.

    And for all those who complain so badly:

    If your PC is “too old” or “too slow” why don’t you just set the your
    SL(tm) Preferences to “custom” and tweak your own SL.
    I tried it with my crappy Laptop here (3 years old) and it worked
    brilliant.
    And if this won’t help at all – then I’m wondering how you’ve been
    able to be in SL at all.
    Since Windlight the framerates actually went up and the overall
    performance too.

    And the fact that it has to go on is an old law (very old)
    It’s called EVOLUTION – or technical progression.
    Just imagine you’d still sit at home under your gas lamp reading
    a book instead of sitting in front of your “too old” PC whining
    about the ongoing progress in SL.
    Imagine James Watt wouldn’t have invented the steam engine or
    Michael Faraday the generator? (not to menion Thomas Edison here)

    And yes… maybe you should start to think about a new PC…
    The rest of SL is not willing to stand still just for you guys with your
    stoneage PC’s – It has to go on…

    Now stop whining – open your eyes and behave like adults and not
    like kids who lost their lolly to the big bad sewer beast.

    Honestly I’m tired of all those who just complain for NO reason.
    (And they are always the same btw.)

    If you’re so unsatisfied… why don’t you leave SL and annoy some
    other ppl. maybe in RL with your whining?
    (Oh my washmashine isn’t working as good as it did in 1803 after
    I replaced my stoneage model – not to talk about the change when
    I got my new iron after changing from hot stones – and these new
    traffic light… they just confuse me… red – yellow – green – that’s
    hard to understand – too hard… I want to have my cop in the crossing back….)

    Lord of mercy – wake up – or go… or try to change your condition
    yourself not always blaming SL(tm) for it.

    And yes there were some things which were not really nice in the past
    but hey – there were times in SL (remember 2006) which were even worse but SL managed to give us a better einvironment back.

    The only thing I really criticize are these Camping bots and Traffic
    bots.
    No IP adress should be able to run more than 2 Accounts at a time.

    Stop these damn camping bots and SL would have some load less
    to deal with.

    Hey… but anyway….

    always remember: There is a RL(tm) out there aswell.

    Love and peace to you all and may the Lag be with you 😛

  73. DerDepp Schnabel says:

    “The new simulator uses a more realistic avatar climbing model”

    lol, thats really neat, i guess many people need to update their stairs ,..but:
    how realistic is flying? 🙂

    it looks like the complete movement (avatar and objects) is less smooth than it was before, hard breaks up to short stopping of movement while speedchange
    avatar fly on ground sometimes, fast turning causes crash,

    there where many issues the last weeks, but its at a point now, where everything looks like to be overloaded, ….asset server, connection, rendering…
    sometimes the ava could not even walk, prims and texture loading takes ages,
    teleporting mostly break up, half-transparent textures always need a rebake to
    look correct, delay on click-edit prims, …and so on

  74. Dekka Raymaker says:

    Hangglideparty banking is amazing now, however instead of a gradual slow descent, drops like a brick and hovers at 5 meters. I sent the creator a note card and asked if a update was imminent, of course I need to give them time to reply.

    However, if he doesn’t reply and isn’t interested in amending the script, do I assume rightly I have a L$4k product that will just not work now?

    Other than that congratulations on the new Havoc4.

  75. DerDepp Schnabel says:

    @ public enemy “sitting in front of your “too old” PC whining
    about the ongoing progress in SL.”

    looks like you take over the regular issue comments of LL ….

    its always easy to get it back to the user, but the interesting thing is, there
    so many different changes in performance sometimes in a single day and i guess,
    all users did not change running SL on a vary of old computers.

    we are using SL as a collaborative working platform and like to see SL
    at least just STABLE in version at it should be. the “EVOLUTION” is years ago
    for SL but it where still a nice tool, if we just can USE it.
    its a kind of software, you have purchased (if you buy a sim an pay tier)
    …on a high price-level.
    the first and important message is: make it really work in the current version, and do not fill it up with unproofed try outs. double the asset servers, stable your connections and make just one version number running as it should be!…..as long as you sell SL as a busines and workgroup tool.
    (i dont talk about the free basic accounts for gaming)

    i am really patient about issues with SL, but i think, i need to know, when i can start to work without apologies which tell me, that MY connection is bad or MY computer is old or MY craphics do not fit 🙂

  76. Simondo Nebestanka says:

    #60 George..
    Comedy gold! Well done that man.

  77. Veda Comet says:

    Seems alot of issues are still not resolved. I’ve been having issues for over 2 months…..

  78. Vivienne says:

    @59

    “Look at PC games… if a pc game doesnt run on your pc you dont blame the maker either. you go upgrade your system.”

    1. I never heard of any successful game producer who knowingly commits commercial suicide by excluding a arge part of the potential users from decent performance, as LL does by not optimizing their stuff for ATI.

    2. I would upgrade my system for commercial use, But no one who runs a 2 years old systemor a brandnew laptop with a great performance regarding each other task and with something more on her/his mind than making or keeping Second Life running can be seriously expected to spend a dime on upgrading. This would cost, premium accounts costs,land costs, and almost everything else in SL costs more than enough. LL is on the wrong track by raising hardware demands for the benifit of some winded lights and other eyecandy, and you are, too.

  79. Bryon Ruxton says:

    There is a erratic problem with search results maybe due to the update based apparently on a sim basis.

    The search all returns the following: “Page Not Available We’re sorry: This item’s privacy settings prevent us from showing you any further details about it. Please hit “Back” and try another link.”

    You can reproduce it by looking for anything in Mauve and Hyboria right now, or
    search for “sandbox” and click on the first result.

    The error privacy settings is rather odd and it looks like it’s affecting many sims at the moment.

  80. Alias Schilling says:

    Whilst not specifically relevant to this post, wonder if we coulkd have a SLurl to wher Office Hours are held please, Sidewinder?

    Maybe an article linked from the homepage is in order to explain what Office Hours is about? For most of us Basic Account holders (who choose to own homes on rented land, etc), it is now perhaps the only opportunity we have to be in contact with “the Linden family” and I’d certainly be interested to know more about Office Hours!

  81. LILLY says:

    WHY IS MEDIA SETTING NOT DEFAULT HIDDEN ???????
    NOW EVERYONE CAN SEE ALL MUSIC URLS EVERYWHERE !!!

  82. Alias Schilling says:

    Sorry – jsut thought to Google and found a wiki entry but a link on he title screen and/or homepagfe would be good! (Sorry for the off-topic spam, folks!)

  83. Nik Woodget says:

    @78
    Just out of curiosity, what ATI card are you using?

  84. Raven Primeau says:

    V @ 78, ❤

    Well done you hit the nail on the head, more subtly than my post on the other blog open on the subject ATM.

    Quotes and apologises for copying from blog to blog

    I just love *sarcasm* those “buy a better… get your self a new… inane comments. All kinda like Mariannetionette saying “Let them eat cake!” attitude! Peasants may be revolting but without them your sims/businesses would be empty/redundant.

    Sl should be configured to run on low spec PCs by default, the whistles and bells should be the optional extra you can turn on. I have to wonder how many sign up, try to run the software and give up without a second thought because its so slow and unco-operative?

    True many ppl that join SL are not PC literate but Linden Labs should be catering for them, not assuming everyone has a clue what vertex shaders and antriwotsit blah blahs are. You the posters here sitting all smug and smart would do well to remember that it’s them that buy your stuff *when SL allows it* and be a little less high and mighty about things.

    Yes my PC is upto spec, I just hate that look down your nose attitude some ppl seem to adopt on the blog

  85. ZATZAi says:

    Hey Sidewinder,

    I was shown a new H4 bug tonight, spheres rolling over flat seams. It seems even if the prim edges are buried inside each other at an angle or the edges are perfectly flush to the 3rd or even 5th digit (Via LSL) that slow rolling spheres will bounce on the seams between prims. I didn’t see a JIRA about it so I created one, and put created a gadget that neatly reproduces the bug so you guys can experiment with it.

    (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2006)

  86. Tiny Mind says:

    @28, Yes. Also notice the problem of Avatars ‘jumping’ in place now on Prim surfaces now. If they simply stand in one spot (using an AO assist or not) their feet seem to rapidly shift in random-motion above and below the actual surface-line, as if the code is trying to determine where to perperly ‘rest’ the bottom of the feet (or shoe object). This is minor and you have to zoom in your camera to plainly see it, but it is happening.

  87. Be Ewing says:

    YAY!!! Prospero and Sidewinder and All at Linden Lab … You rock! 🙂 … Keep on rocking right along 🙂 … Take care and have a great day! 🙂

  88. OoogaBooga says:

    ** Heather Goodliffe **

    Nice try, heather but will find that when it comes to Havok anything you point out on the blogs will be met with resistance to whatever you reply with. Its like blogging with kids.

    “I have a problem…” ” No you don’t!”
    “Yes, I have a legitimate gripe” “No not really”
    “I spend tons of money here” “Irrelevant”
    “Huh What?!!?!?” “NEXT!”

    I see problems when LL doesn’t have time to work with creators after a major sim update. This could be financially catastrophic for some. Which is the backbone of SL, Sim owners, who create the **user created content.** SL should have a team set aside to mop up these issues in order to get SL stable again, BECAUSE IT IS NOT, instead of pushing it thru the hellish Jira month by month bug fix process.

    Stability was supposed to be what HAV4 was bringing. Hmm, that idea went from “Here is Hav4 enjoy your new stability” to “Here is Hav4… CHOKE ON IT!!! You don’t like it cry to Jira!!!”

  89. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @GMT CLOCK: I am not sure what the few folks talking about are seeing with the viewer clock… I have checked a few times over the last day and it’s been spot on in agreement with both an atomic clock reference and my cell phone (with time offsets considered)… I am not trying to say that you’re not seeing a problem – it’s just that I’m not sure how this difference could happen for only some people. I will check with some folks later today to see if we have any theories on this. /Sidewinder

  90. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @49 Attica: Some camera control code has changed, but I had not thought that the fundamental resting camera angles had changed. I do not understand how this would affect your condition and will contact you to discuss this, as we certainly did not intend to create problems for people with these changes. Thanks, Sidewinder

  91. o.h. says:

    Q: Why can I not climb up stairs that I could climb up before?

    A: The new simulator uses a more realistic avatar climbing model. It uses a location at about the standard height knee point as the height of barrier that is considered to be a “wall” for avatar stair climbing behavior. If stairs are too tall, the avatar will not be able to climb them.

    You DO realize this was being used to make things like ladders climbable? Knowing the feedback of every time i removed this little feature form my place I can tell you a lot of peopl eare used to that and want to do it…

  92. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @55 daniel: “I have one region (Kikai Enkai) with serious performance trouble since the H4 rollout”

    Openspace regions are shared on the processor with other regions. It could be (I do not know anything about the region name or usage) that your openspace region is on a shared processor with another region that has some heavy load scripts or lots of avatars on it.

    Also please note that on restart, a region may end up on a different host with a different processor assignment than before the restart. This would take some more analysis to really understand the source of the issue.

    /Sidewinder

  93. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @61 Mant: This post about a recent beta preview update had extensive discussion of megaprims – rather than replay that here, please see this link 🙂 /Sidewinder

    http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/27/havok%e2%84%a24-beta-preview-update-with-8-fixes-2008-03-27-rc3-of-the-new-second-life-simulator/

  94. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @62 Sonja and @63 ab: Would you please file jiras with the locations and a step-by-step process for how to reproduce this hover sinking near water problem. It was demonstrated to me a few days ago, but was difficult for me to replicate, and I am wondering if there are some other ways that might be easier to trigger. It is hard to solve this one withouit being able to produce the behavior on demand. Thanks, Sidewinder

  95. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @67 Galatea: Please provide some specifics on this unlinking problem so that we can look into this. Thanks, Sidewinder

  96. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @80 Alias:
    “Whilst not specifically relevant to this post, wonder if we coulkd have a SLurl to wher Office Hours are held please, Sidewinder?

    Maybe an article linked from the homepage is in order to explain what Office Hours is about? For most of us Basic Account holders (who choose to own homes on rented land, etc), it is now perhaps the only opportunity we have to be in contact with “the Linden family” and I’d certainly be interested to know more about Office Hours!”

    This information was posted in this blog entry above – copied here (I know that was a long post…):

    Please attend office hours if you can, so that we can talk directly about any issues and discuss how to best resolve them. Office hours are held at the center of “Content to Hover” on Tuesdays at 11:00-12:00 PST and Thursdays at 17:00-18:00 PST.

    Other Linden office hours are listed here on the Second Life wiki:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  97. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @85 ZATZAi: Thanks. We do know about the prim seam issue and have been working on it. Apparently this is caused by some edge detection that sometimes will pick up the side “around the corner” of the prim and cause seam bumping. This is already known and exhibits itself most often with vehicles. /Sidewinder

  98. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @86 Tiny: Could you please provide a step-by-step example of how to see this, or where it happens? I have not been able to see this behavior. Thanks, Sidewinder

  99. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @88 Oooga:
    “I see problems when LL doesn’t have time to work with creators after a major sim update.”

    How is what we are doing now not having the time to work with creators after a major sim update? Are we not collecting feedback and working on bugs, after a major sim update? Isn’t that what this post is about, and the work that we continue to do with residents on this project? Please feel free to attend office hours tonight for a demonstration of continuing to work with creators after a major sim update if you doubt that we are still working on this project.

    /Sidewinder

  100. Sandor Balczo says:

    @79:

    I can confirm the same erratic problem as a land manager. One of our residents complained about it. Did you open a Jira ticket, Bryon’

    Also, can anyone using Swimmer 1.1 confirm if they are unable to use it even in Siggy Romulus’s specially designed water? I just wave my arms in desperation and sink after a few seconds.

    Besides that, nothing to say about this new release except that downloading the recent browser has caused a final compatibility problem with my 4 year-old PC at work running Windows 2000 (but I can still interact without enabling all the extra features). My home iMac w/iSight (2006) fares better, much better, except for the atmospheric reflections. I feel Mac users are luckier than PC users :).

  101. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @91 o.h.: Thanks – that is a good point…. I’ll talk with the team about it. /Sidewinder

  102. Sinuna Falta says:

    Go Sidewinder!
    Go H4 team!

    I’ve been in SL nearly a year now and I’ve slowly shifted from the “impressed and forgiveing newbee” to the “Geez.. can’t they do anything right?” veteran.

    But this project has shifted me back to “happy” side of the fence.

    SL can be fixed.
    SL can be stableized.
    SL can be improved.
    Just a little bit of honest communication goes a LONG way toward turning customers into friends. 🙂

    Hang in there guys.. just 62 more posts anf this entry will fill up.. possibly setting a new record for % of positive responses.

  103. Cee Ell says:

    @39 and @44 — fwiw, the blog entry that documented the increased motor speed limit was on 28 Feb 2008: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/02/28/havok-early-adopter-and-beta-preview-refresh-with-6-fixes-2008-02-28/

  104. Camis Lee says:

    I downloaded the update this morning and now I cant get in?? Is it up? every time I log in I get a bar that creeps up a little farther each time but then says to check the blog because it is unable to load???

  105. DR Dahlgren says:

    The issue with Spheres is a major problem. I find it hard to believe that this was rolled out across the world with that sort of major problem in it. Shame on you!!! This breaks so many builds and sphere uses I can not even begin to count.

    I have done a little testing, and the key seems to be:

    If the dimples have a difference of .500 or less the sim treats it as solid. In some instances I can get the diff down to .45 but it is not reliable, and sometimes is seen as hollowed and sometimes as solid. You do not need to make the sphere hollow to duplicate this, just dimpled.

    Sidewinder, you do so well with the communications, and all in all this has been a good effort, something the world needed, but why oh why would you deploy something with such a big impact to builders??

    DRD

  106. @92 Sidewinder: this is now confirmed for more regions, open space and full prim. Regions that were running stable before wednesday (Sean Heying already contacted you about it. Kikai Enkai is now on the 3rd different server, still showing the same behaviour. A jira is opened:

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2005

    My estate owner (I’m estate manager for all named regions) also has a support ticket opened: 4051-4659731

    I’m online many hours per day, please feel free to contact me 🙂

    Daniel

  107. Detox Watanabe says:

    @#78 (Vivienne)
    [b]on 1.[&b]: this is rather unrelated to my example and uses a weird exaggeration based on asumptions. In my oppinion its actually ATI who screws up here, not LL. Besides, most new ego-shooters (most demanding games usually) require upgrades as they wont run that well on hardware older than a few months (more or less current examples: crysis, f.e.a.r., stalker). No one really blames the developer there, and THAT was my point. Please be advised that SL can’t be fully compared to the PC-Games anyway, as posted in the Knowledgebase: [i]”You know, I have a videogame that runs at a framerate much, much higher than Second Life’s. Why is that?”

    The quick answer: User-generated content.

    The reason why your videogame has such a luxurious, silken-smooth framerate is because its content is pre-rendered, and either installs to your hard drive before you’ve even begun playing, or streams to your computer from your CD or DVD-ROM drive faster than an internet connection could ever hope to be.

    Content in Second Life isn’t pre-rendered. It’s created on the fly and updated constantly by countless individual users every second of every day while being fed to your computer through the internet. All of these factors make Second Life a much more dynamic, complicated world to render, which results in a framerate that’s nominally lower than a top-of-the-line first-person shooter. This isn’t to say Second Life’s maximum framerate might not improve later — the future is ever unknowable — but those of you wondering why your region doesn’t compare to your favorite next-generation shooter now have your answer.[/i](Second Life Support Center: Knowledgebase, , https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4780)

    In the end, SL isn’t just a game, it’s far more complicated. [b]Lag(Framerate and network) itself is almost solely caused by the users, not the developers.[/b] In Sl you can plaster 15000 prims in a sim with textures that are 1024×1024 32bit on sculpted prims with sculpted textures on equal size, flipping all over, spamming thousands of high res particles. This will lag [i]any current or even (not so near) future system[/i]. Do you understand this example?

    [b]on 2.[/b]
    Frankly, your arguments are mainly based on wrong assumptions and not on facts.

    – SL overall runs smoothly with good graphics on older PCs. However, you will need to make adjustments. I usually adapt my view distance and my overall graphics quality based on how my framerate is. The new viewer makes this very easy (Torley made a good video tutorial on this btw.) You can’t expect SL to have smooth minimum 25 frames per second everywhere and everytime (also see my answer above).
    In addition you need to have a properly set up system. Many PCs are overloaded by malware, bad OS installations and driver issues. In this case a fresh system installation helps. You can’t expect LL to fix this for you. Sometimes your graphics card isnt made for 3D content – in this case consider buying a cheap gaming grade card (sometimes less than 50USD – just dont buy anything that sounds like it, ask people who know what this means in case you don’t). Another Problem might be RAM. Running on 512 or 1GB? Upgrade to 2Gigs. Estimated Cost: less than 20USD. Please consult a pc tech (forum) for this kind of questions, sometimes the solution is easier than you think :). Again it’s the User causing the problems, not LL.

    – Hardware demands are not being raised by LL. I recently ran SL on a 4 year old PC, nothing you want to play a current PC game on, and ended up using the WL viewer since I had more FPS with it.

    – You are the one who choses where to spend your money. My current PC has a worth of less than 100USD and I have no big lag issues. SL itself is *free*. Even making a good avatar doesn’t cost you as much. How much did you spend lately on lets say – “pixel art”? How about spending some money on making your avatar look nicer on your own screen by buying a better graphics card and more ram? 😉

    Again, dont just run to the hardware store around the corner and buy some card and ram, it’s really not that easy. consult people who know. SL is about 3D content and [i]requires[/i] appropiate hardware (along with well set up OS and drivers). Consult a good forum with some hardware geeks in it, describe what you want, tell them your budget and they will probably help you.

    Let me tell you another example to think about: half life 2 (ego shooter) was released november 2004. However, it will not run properly on e.g. a system that costs 599USD I found on a large hardware vendor shop in the internet. Simply because this system is a somewhat overpowered office-pc, not made for 3d-graphics. In other words, a ripp-off. You dont want to bring a truck to a nascar race. However, a PC that is designed for 3D-Games will run it smoothly while costing about 300USD.

    Your PC is most likely newer than mine btw.

    @84 (Raven Primeau):
    LL doesnt force you to turn on the “whistles and bells”. Now its even easier to turn them off! If your system is not too old it might be that its contents (non 3d graphics card, and not enough ram) are not made for 3d-games. Therefore YOU need to change something, not LL.

  108. Rowana Rolland says:

    @37
    Thank you very much for the links to the old clients. My machine is not handling the newest version very well. The avatars animations are …chunky. I work in a dance club. Watching dancers is…odd…rofl

    Rowana

  109. Sonja Felisimo says:

    Hi sidewinder sweetheart……hiihhi

    the bug with hovering over water has disappeared since the rollout of the havok patch 🙂

    I did post a few post later to tell you this 🙂

    So my guess is you can forget this problem its gone.

    big kiss 🙂

  110. hope antonelli says:

    So we all have to be 6’2″ Amazons for our huggers to work with this new version? Wonderful, guess thats one way to weed out child AVs, or short ones for that matter.

  111. DR Dahlgren says:

    I use a lot of scripts that rely on llGetGMTclock and llGetWallclock. I have looked at them all and also written a quick script to just chat the output of each. I can find no problem with the output and it is accurate to the 1 sec limit of the function.

    I would be happy to help anyone having this issue, or to look at it more indepth. My thought is that there is something in a script causing this offset or drift.

    IM me in-world if you desire.

    DRD

  112. Montecore Babcock says:

    My script that used to work fine using llApplyImpulse function to boost my speed, no longer works. So impulse is not generating any speed, and I am stuck at the same speed as if I were running or walking. This is a huge problem as I just rolled out a new sports script and it’s effectively broken the biggest aspect of it.

  113. Uccello Poultry says:

    I found an amusing effect: My avie now sinks at lower altitudes. Everyone is used to seeing their avie drift downward when at the maximum flight height, but mine consistently floats down when at just 35m. Several times I’ve gone from about there to 22m over a period of just a couple minutes. It hasn’t been a problem, though I can see how it might be annoying. But it was fun checking it out.

  114. Uccello Poultry says:

    @110 I have noticed that “huggers” and similar animators now stutter, especially if avies are not identical heights or are on slightly different level (such as on a ramp). Someone has probably bug-reported this so I’m off to find it and vote for it.

  115. jacquelinetrudeau says:

    @4 – I agree. I nominate Sidewinder as lead Linden for the much needed sim crossing project. 🙂

  116. Damona Rau says:

    @107

    Detox said: The quick answer: User-generated content.

    Ok, that i can understand, when i’m on a rarely visited region.

    But I’m 95% from my time at my location, you know club and mall. I’m really sure that ALL textures are cached on my hard disk. With your – and respectivly the explanation from LL – i should get much more FPS, because all textures are cached. We haven’t much changes, except changing shops. But the most textures don’t change. So why i get the same FPS like in a rarely visited regions?

    Anyway, i’m happy with the windlight viewer, it’s much more stable as the old one with a much better FPS rate.

    The next point you said, is, that SL is free. Right, it’s free, but from the point you run a business, it isn’t really free. If SL runs fine, there is no problem at all, but in the past weeks we have had such alot of trouble, that many ppl are really close to end their business. Why?

    – money transactions don’t work properly, most at the main times 10am till 6pm
    – items delivere often fails in the same time frame
    – TPs often fails in this time frame
    – Login difficulties in this time frame
    – Group IMs / Notices difficulties in this time frame
    – Friendslists are broken
    – heavy memory leak in the viewer

    You can extend this list. With all this troubles it’s hard to run a business. I can understand that LL wants a more up to date system (windlight, havok4, voice etc). But i can’t understand, why LL don’t work in the same way on the massiv problems. Adding new features arent the best way to keep the residents happy. I think many residents would abstain of windlight and havok4 if they would get a stable environmenr, where they can run their business.

    I would love to see in the next weeks some improvements for the stability and not new gadgets.

  117. Pointside Sunbelter says:

    @115 Jacqueline Trudeau

    I second the Sim Crossing Issue. Its already in Jira. Wonder does it need to be resubmitted for Hav4 since it never got fixed in the previous Hav.

  118. DR Dahlgren says:

    Last post for me – I have noticed that at least for me, a lot of the issues that plagued SL over the last few days, logins – stale transactions – lagging inventory – etc, seem to have cleared up. I am wondering if this is a side effect of pushing out the server code while the grid is live. Is it possible that the rollout hogs so much bandwidth to the server farms that the rest of the system suffers??

    Also – texture caching very definately seems to have problems in RC3 and 4 and now the main client. I can find a texture in my cache, but in-world all I have to do is turn away from it and back for it to go grey. This does not apply to all textures so I am finding it difficult to replicate accurately. I will keep at it though.

    I look forward to a final post from Sidwinder on the last few issues he has not commented on.

    DRD

  119. jacquelinetrudeau says:

    @117 I’m under the impression it is an issue not related to the physics engine, but rather the queueing of data from CPU to CPU.

  120. glow Raymaker says:

    work on stopping tps giving error messages 2 seconds after they start or where it stalls and 2 min or more later you reapear at the place you start from. Or perhaps where the cancel tp button only apears 1/2 the time.Or where you accept a tp from a person and it sends you to another location!

  121. Zi Ree says:

    One big problem with user-generated content is, that users will use a huge number of textures, probably at high resolutions, not in any way optimized in a way to be efficiently stored, reused or transferred quickly. The textures get cached eventually, so network usage goes down, but your viewer FPS will not go up, because the viewer has to swap textures in and out of the graphics card’s memory constantly.

    Well written 3D games do not suffer that much from this, because the developers have full control over how many textures can be seen in a scene and over the size of these textures.

  122. matika Wombat says:

    I have to say, WOOT! I love the update, scripts (at least in my sim) are running wonderfull, scripts that hadn’t been running the way they suppose to are running smooth, and lag, WHAT LAG? Awsome update 🙂 TY TY, have never enjoyed SL so much, and Windlight rocks.

  123. Michael Timeless says:

    Sidewinder
    Thank you. This is probably the best Blog post ever. Many have said it but it bears repeating, your team has set a bar that many of us hope the rest of the teams will TRY to reach. Good detail, good responsive follow-up. Thank you. You’ve done a lot to restore my faith in the processes. The sim may not be perfect but we believe your team is making the best possible effort under trying circumstances.

  124. Ajax Manatiso says:

    Seems like animation upload preview is now non-functional. Don’t know if it is Havok4 or the new viewer. However the upload works and so do the uploaded animations. Very, very annoying however as you are not sure which animations are trash and which are good.

  125. Chrysala Desideri says:

    flushed hosts, but:

    http://64.154.223.169

    secondlife.com

    RC4 viewer

    none are connecting. is there ANYTHING i can do?

  126. Frank Northmead says:

    Woke up this morning and 1/2 my inventory is gone, Seems anything over 1 folder deep is missing. Sigh, hoping it is not really gone, but just a client hiccup. And yes, I have relogged a few times…

  127. ab Vanmoer says:

    @89 : The clock on the top right of the screen is correct, but the two LSL functions that return the GMT time llGetGMTclock() and llGetTimestamp() are returning the wrong time.

  128. Ultra Nefarious says:

    I know this isn’t a major deal, but it looks like no face lights work now. I’ve tried on every one that I have and no results whatsoever. Is anyone else having this problem or, better yet, do you have a face light that is working that I can switch to? I didn’t spend $L4000 on a skin to walk around looking like crap!

  129. Ultra Nefarious says:

    Never mind – figured it out. You have to switch to getting the ‘nearby local lights’ under Preferences now. My bad! Everything else looks cool to me so far, thanks for the hard work on this.

  130. Stimpy Tripp says:

    Congrats Sidewider et. al. on the Havoc 4 rollout. I’m sure this was a huge undertaking, and really needed done.
    All told. I think its working as well as anyone dared imagine. I try to remind myself with all the hacks that have built up over the years of independant coders building things, its natural some things will be different. Seems like you did a good job testing/talking about things.
    -s

  131. Thank you Sidewinder for info. Good job 2 Every1 for Havok & the all the annoying bugswatting!

    Does havok improve asset service or is it a totally disrelated project?

  132. Heather Goodliffe says:

    Looks like my last post got stuck in the moderation queue:

    @Sidewinder

    * Please also keep in mind that some of us have day jobs as well and can not make office hours during normal business hours.

    * Re the roll out, I agree it wouldn’t make sense to have all sims running different versions for extended periods of time. But it does seem to make sense to give people some flexibility in when it happens and if they need to roll back while their issues are resolved. The early adopter process was a big step forward, though not quite the same thing… (my only options as a sim owner are currently, suffer through the early problems, or get a forced update later).

    * Regarding warning, yes, I’m aware there were many meetings and blog postings and release candidates. So many so that it becomes time consuming to keep up and test under every version, I believe Havok4 has been in the works pretty much since I joined SL.. it still wouldn’t hurt to give more than a days warning before forcing the final update if that’s how you’re going to do it. (If the blog said, the roll out would happen next week, that would’ve been more ideal to give people enough time.)

    * Regarding prioritizing issues, perhaps we can start with the following?
    * SVC-1272
    * People riding surf boards are almost completely under water while paddling
    * SVC-1974
    * Perhaps it’s also time to look into SL handling repeatedly rezzing the same object better? Considering the hit Havok4 takes now.
    * SVC-1660
    * Some people have reported their object falling
    * SVC-1179

    Thanks,
    ~HG~

  133. coz okelly says:

    The swimmer 1.1 is not working. Avi orientation is out of the water and swimmer script knows it. Does this means creators have to rewrite all of their scripts

  134. coz okelly says:

    in addition, the old bug of suddenly flying forever and into never never land is back… flew all the way across a sim and then locked up.

  135. morgan says:

    okay for one thing yeah this is a lil off topic…
    but hello i havnt had a second life account yet and it’s telling me that
    i have to many accounts that i cannot create one?????
    hello whsts the deal here.
    theres no email address for me to complain to so i figured why not on the forum????

    buhh bye you just lost a valuable customer…

    Sincerely
    Morgan Warped&Twisted

  136. @ sonja

    Yes; I did post yesterday about the water problem; but Kate Linden seemed to think it was an irrelevant post and censored it 😦

  137. U M says:

    don`t feel bad Tommy Kate deleted post. Atleast it still showed. Some Lindens just don`t care. Thats what makes sidewinder differnt he replies. Kate just linden just doesnt care, post it to sidewinder he might answer it. Atleast he has repect and manners unlike some lindens lack these days.

  138. Shadow D. Wolf, Esq. says:

    o.O

    Uhm, why are people posting about the viewer (client) on a thread about the sim (server) code?

    As someone else put it, this is like watching someone go to a grocery store and complain to the meat department that their vegetables aren’t fresh.

    To be clear:

    * Havok4 has NOTHING TO DO with the Second Life program running on YOUR computer!

    * Havok4 is an update for the SERVERS, not YOUR computer. YOU don’t have to download ANYTHING!

    * Havok4 is an update for the physics engone that runs on the SERVERS. The graphics performance (or lack thereof) of YOUR computer has NOTHING to do with it.

    *Havok4 CAN’T cause your computer to misbehave because Havok4 ISN’T ON YOUR COMPUTER! It’s on the SERVERS!

    While I’m at it:

    * The RC (windlight) viewer is NOT required by the Havok4 servers. It is an OPTIONAL release for TESTING that you don’t have to use if you don’t want to.

    * ATI has some known issues with their OpenGL support. THIS IS ATI’s PROBLEM, not Second Life’s. Go complain to ATI about THEIR buggy drivers.

    * Intel’s OpenGL support in their graphics chips is buggy and, in some cases, incomplete. THIS IS INTEL’s PROBLEM, not Second Life’s. Go complain to Intel about THEIR buggy drivers.

    —–

    *takes a breath* Now that I have that out of my system….

    Awesome work, Sidewinder, et. al. 🙂

    You and your team are model Lindens when it comes to keeping users informed and keeping the lines of communication open. I truly hope the others at LL will follow your example.

  139. Julilina Beck says:

    I am not techincally inclined. I have updated as requested. Actually I have downloaded the newest version 4 times. I am getting this message. I would appreciate any help solving this. I already deleted the old version.
    “NISIS Error

    The installer you are trying to use is corrupted or incomplete.
    This could be the result of a damaged disk, failed download, or virus.

    You may want to contact the author to obtain a new copy

    It may be possible to skip this check using the /NCRC command line switch (NOT RECOMMENDED)

    Thank you in advance!

  140. bigsal says:

    Ok it seems the jury is out on the new viewer but I’d like to try it for myself. I’m not dissatisfied with the one I am using though, so I don’t want to screw anything up. I can’t find my vid card in the wiki for system requirements or elsewhere. It is an ATI Radeon HD 2400 pro. I’m running Vista. I can figure out the tweaks for myself just want to make sure it will run ok first. Thanks.

  141. Zi Ree says:

    @133 Heather Goodliffe: I think the Havok4 rollout was one of the best documented and supported efforts Linden Lab has done in the last year or so. There were lots and lots and opportunities to test your products on the new physics engine.

    In the early stage we had the Havok4 sims on the beta grid, where you could go and check out your products, report bugs and get stuff fixed early.

    Later there were the Linden run Havok4 enabled sims on the main grid, offering more testing under everyday conditions.

    Then we had the early adopter program. A perfect opportunity for every builder and scripter to check out their products on either their own sim or on one of the 600 other early adopter sims.

    Finally there were announcements of Havok4 coming to the grid soon, and that would be the absolutely latest point in time to get the products Havok4 ready.

    And now Havok4 is there, and I really can’t see why you still think there wasn’t enough of advance warning. There were months of testing and publicly accessible places to go, at any time of day.

  142. Raven Primeau says:

    Nice rant Shadow wolf…lol I wonder why so many misuse the blog when all the relevant blogs are NO COMMENT

  143. Riven Homewood says:

    How can I get back to the previous version that I was running yesterday? The textures were much nicer, the colors much less harsh, the reflections much more realistic

  144. coz okelly says:

    I’ll take Shadows question. The reason viewer problems come into play is because it is what we use to see the data on the server. Now if you up date the server and a “viewer” problem occurs then there is a problem with one of them. I don’t expect users to tell me the cure, I just want to hear their problem and then sort out where the problems lays and how it can be corrected.
    My swimmer 1.1 used to work, now it doesn’t, is that a viewer problem or a server problem. I don’t care which it is, just fix it. there is something wrong in our watery world.

  145. Sidewinder, you rock! Rarely do I see soo many official yellow comments to address our questions on the blog.

    I surely hope you get some rest babe. You deserve it. 🙂

  146. Tester says:

    On http://jira.secondlife.com there is no option to set affected version as 1.20.0 Server for SVC Issues.
    Or any other affected versions that say Havok4 etc.

  147. Tester says:

    Argh not SVC Issues, there is no option to do it on VWR sorry

  148. ab Vanmoer says:

    @111 DR Dahlgren:
    I haven’t checked since about 1am PST and can’t log on now, so it might well be fixed, but both llGetGMTclock() and llGetTimestamp() were returning the wrong time for most of yesterday, The reason I discovered, was the I received a few IMs from people who had bought clocks from me in the past, complaining that the time is wrong. Clocks that have been running correctly for months.
    The first thing I did was to write a quick script to display the outputs of both functions in chat and they were giving the incorrect time.

  149. Flaran Riggles says:

    Sidewinder, re sinking while hovering over water. I’m a sailor in sl and have a waterside home in Dunnylun. I can reproduce this effect hovering over any water any time! Please contact me inworld if u want a demonstration! It’s slow but eventually you’re underwater!

Comments are closed.