More Stable Second Life Simulator On The Way (Tastes Great, Less Crashing)

Second Life Simulator v1.20.0.83683 Is On The Way! (previously known as Havok™4 Beta Server)

This Saturday we announced the release readiness of the new Second Life Simulator, previously known as the Havok™4 Beta Server. Testing this weekend turned up a couple of issues that we took care of this morning. As a result of this successful initial run, we will be deploying the new Second Life Simulator today and tomorrow in two phases.

What Is Happening?

As part of our continued effort to increase the stability and reliability of Second Life, we are happy to announce a new simulator that significantly reduces region crashes. This release is the result of the Havok™4 project, a project that updated the physics engine used to determine all movement of objects in Second Life.

Please note that this project updates the Second Life Simulator, which is a piece of software that runs across thousands of servers at our data centers. It is a completely server-based update, that does not require a viewer download.

When Will The New Simulator Be Deployed?

Today, Monday March 31

  • All Early Adopters
  • All Welcome Areas
  • All Orientation Islands
  • 1200 randomly selected Second Life regions

Tomorrow, Tuesday April 1

  • The rest of Second Life

Where Can I Find Information About The New Simulator?

For more information on the project that led up to the v1.20.0 release, please see the following pages:

Physics Office Hours

We will be continuing our office hours for scripters and builders to discuss physics-related issues directly with the physics development team. These office hours are scheduled at the region “Content to Hover” on Tuesdays at 11:00-12:00 PST and Thursdays at 17:00-18:00 PST

The Havok™4 Team

I would like to publicly recognize the Havok™4 project team. The team put in a huge effort over a very long time, and always kept a positive, professional attitude, even in the face of a project that sometimes seemed that it might be impossible to complete. Thank you for your dedication and determination:

Software Development: Andrew Linden, Kelly Linden, Simon Linden

Quality Assurance: Dan Linden

Deploy Engineering: Sabin Linden, Lee Linden, Prospero Linden

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Program Manager

This entry was posted in -Miscellaneous, Announcements & News, Bugs & Fixes. Bookmark the permalink.

149 Responses to More Stable Second Life Simulator On The Way (Tastes Great, Less Crashing)

  1. Just someone who knows... says:

    Horrible, horrible idea to deploy this now when there are asset server and transaction woes every single day since a week. Fix that first, THEN deploy havok. Everything else ist just plain stupid.

  2. Elvis Orbit says:

    OMG it is here! Congrats and good luck!

  3. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    How are we to tell if this is more stable when all the rest of SL is crashing around it. Repeatedly.

  4. Byakuya Runo says:

    WOOHOO!!! I hope my sim gets selected for tonight’s deploy! 🙂

  5. Hu says:

    The H4 team is not responsible for other aspects of the system – LL has enough people to deploy this while still working on other issues.

  6. Thank you, Havok4 team!! How would we know if we are one of the 1200 regions?

  7. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Yes, post the region list!

  8. Angsty Rossini says:

    The “Linkability Rules” page is written in gobbledy-gook!

    Can someone PLEASE provide us with a plain-English version of the information on this page?

    *sigh*

  9. Shire Pony says:

    I think this is a fantastic development. Combined with the upcoming Mono release these are major turning points in the stability and maturity of Second Life.

    This H4 release has received extensive testing and though there will no doubt be little bumps here and there, overall folks should realize this is a vast improvement over the old physics engine.

    I especially look forward to being able to build all the way up to 4096m. Now if we could only get the lindens to bump the sim prim limit to 25,000… the current 15,000 prim limit is from class 3 days and no longer makes sense.

    Kudos to the H4 team!

  10. saddeneyes says:

    deploy something and we have IN WORLD ISSUES NOW , shakes head , think it is time to take a very long vacation from SL …

  11. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @3 Ravanne:
    “How are we to tell if this is more stable”

    We are collecting crash rate statistics, and I will be publishing results after we have collected some data. We also collected crash rate statistics during the Early Adopter public beta process, and the results were quite positive.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  12. saddeneyes, physics is a large part of the stability problem and this fixes it. What part of that don’t you understand?

  13. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @6 Cristalle: If you click on Help > About Second Life… in your viewer, and the fourth text line says “Second Life Server vv1.20.0.83683”, then you are on a new Havok4-based simulator. /Sidewinder

  14. I will see if the problems in objects I know of can be scripted around.

    We have had a test H4 sim for a while now and in general it has performed wonderfully.

    Yes it still has bugs.. but it will help a lot.

  15. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @9 Shire: Please note that the new build ceiling height will not be enabled until a future viewer release. There is a double-check on build height in the viewer, and that will be included in a viewer release after this roll-out. /Sidewinder

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @14 Garth: We are still working to resolve bugs, so if you are still seeing issues with scripting and physics, please feel file a jira and IM me in-world if it is a complex case so that we can resolve whatever open issues still exist. Thanks, Sidewinder

  17. Chalice Yao says:

    @1: I see you have no idea how much Havok 4 improves region stability then. Also, as stated, these people don’t take care of what you are complaining about, others do. Stop complaining to the bakery about the taste of your steak. Take a lick of the sugary cake.

    Way to go, H4 team 🙂 You’ve been the most impressive group at devs, QA and community relations from all SL subprojects so far since my first logon to SL. Big Kudos to you.

  18. Shire Pony says:

    @15 Sidewinder: Yep, I’ve seen that from my testing on the H4 beta – but a 4096m ceiling is coming, and it will be wonderful, so I’m looking forward to it 🙂

  19. Ilana Debevec says:

    INCOMING!!!! Woo hoo, this is great… oh I do hope LaSalle is on the early list, we tried for early adopter and it was too late when we applied.

  20. Argent Stonecutter says:

    The Wiki entry on Havok 4 seems badly out of date.

  21. Angsty Rossini says:

    Re 13,

    Hi Sidewinder, I think your reply was for different question 🙂

    I was referrring to the the Linkability Rules Page – which is written in techno-babble.

    While the current language and content of that page is appropriate for a Technical System Specification document, I do not believe it is appropriate for a Wiki page.

    I simply requested that it be re-written in plain English, so that we can actually understand what the heck it is talking about.

  22. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Argent@20: you mean the “Whats Changed” wiki entry?

    Argent: Yes, you’re right. ^^

    Shire@18, Sidewinder@16:

    Scripts already work up to 4096 meters just fine. I’ve updated my netporter and megaskybox for this already, and you CAN build at those altitudes right now with a little care. Best is to build at a lower level and use a rezzer (like Rez-Foo) to set up your skybox.

  23. Mel says:

    Thanks for responding to people, Sidewinder. I do think that Angsty had a point tho. He/she was referring to the “Linkability Rules” link and it is written for mathemeticians. I am hoping that someone will put the outcome of that link into something that those of us that are less well versed can understand. For example… Before you could only link 3 10×10 m prims but now you can link 4 because the center for linking has changed (or some such). And please, people, this is not a true statement, just an example of what might be easier to understand for us non-mathematical/non-techy types.

  24. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @20 Argent: As we’ve discussed at office hours we’ll be putting together a Physics info page with more current specifics, but I thought that at least providing the project wiki page would give folks who have not been aware of the project some background.
    Thanks, Sidewinder

  25. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @23 Mel and others re linkability rules:

    Whether prims are linkable in Second Life has always been governed by formulas. The Havok1 formulas were based on a “cube model”, where things had to fit within the cube to link. The problem with that model is that if you rotate the item on rez – things at the extreme boundaries would fall off and be non-linkable.

    The new model is based on a sphere, so that no matter which orientation the item is rezzed in, the previously linked parts will still link.

    The rest of the details of “how many”, “of what size” and “how far apart” are mathematical formulae that are by nature inter-related. If I were to simplify them into a sentence or two we’d get avalanched by people who say “well here’s an example that doesn’t match the rule”… which is why I have been less comfortable with a text cliff-notes version.

    The bottom line is that things that used to link in the old simulator should link in the new one. If you build something in the new one it might not link in the old one. However that issue now becomes moot as we roll out the new simulator to the whole Second Life system.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  26. Sofia Westwick says:

    If you all would attend the Office meetings or read the transcripts most of your questions your asking would be answered.

    I’ve had Havok 4 in many of my sims for a months now and Its very good very stable and it does help allot with sim performance.

  27. Ravanne Sullivan says:

    @17
    Stop complaining to the bakery about the taste of your steak. Take a lick of the sugary cake.

    SL like a meal at a resturant is compriosed of many elements. If you were eating at a resturant and the chef came out and beaming with pride at the wonderful steak he had cooked for you, asked how you liked your meal. You might well tell him that you found it terrible, the waiter was rude and didn’t bring you a fresh glass of water when you wanted one. Like the diner in a resturant the users of SL are concerned abou the experience as a whole and it is in this regard that LL is failing miserably.

  28. hmr1000 says:

    For those of you who argue that the simulator is not the part of SL that are causing the present problems, let me point out to you a very basic rule of Systems Theory, the science upon which SL and every other computer program that exists is based, That rule is, you cannot change on part of a system without effecting all of it. In simple words these changes which are huge will have profound and unexpected changes over every aspect of the SL program. Whether those effects will be for the better or worse only time will tell, but blithely saying that because your project is not concerned with the roots of the problems with the asset server, does not mean you will not effect those problems for good or ill. I truly hope that in this case you are right and this leads to a vast improvement of stability, but given the instability we are now facing, fear that this like all the other piecemeal improvements you have made this year will only further stress the system and make it worse. Only time will tell what will happen and I for one would feel much more comfortable about this if LL was not so quick to promise such wonderful results, and were more guardedly optimistic.

  29. Shire Pony says:

    @22: This has always been the case. Indeed, one of the sims I manage has a “Mile High Club” located at 1609m.

    But this has always been tricky as the slightest attempt to actually move anything will cause it to immediately relocate to 768m.

    From what I’ve read from Kelly Linden (in SVC-1072) things will eventually change as follows:

    Havok4 CURRENT
    ———-
    Rez non-physical & physical objects below 1024m
    Move physical objects below 4096m
    Move non-physical & physical objects below 1024m
    Avatars (via attachments): Infinite

    Havok4 NEW
    ———-
    Rez non-physical & physical objects below 4096
    Move physical objects below 4096m
    Move non-physical & physical objects below 4096m
    Avatars (via attachments): Infinite

    And this is what I’m licking my chops over. Far less crowded skies for everyone’s skyboxes and ocean horizon super prims that are too high to be seen on the mini map (and thus blot them out). This allows for wonderful organic ground level builds and more structured stuff up high. All around, it’s going to be great for builders.

  30. Digital Digital says:

    Way 2 go Havoc Team! I am very excited! Region Restarting Now 🙂

  31. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    Hey guys, congrats on this milestone!

    I have a question though. Wasn’t there a plan to implement a viewer update in conjunction with putting H4 mainstream…mainly breaking through the ceiling cap from 768m to 4096m ceiling?

  32. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    @29 Hm, missed that change and that answers my #31

    Thanks for sharing

  33. Mistie Hax says:

    And the crowd goes wild!!! I Realy hope that this improvment makes a huge difference in-world. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!

  34. Your Conscience says:

    Sidewinder, I notice on the wiki page concernig “What’s new” on the build limits, it says 1024 as a new building limit instead of ~4k, which is what you originally stated. Which is the correct amount, and if it is 1024, could you explain why the shorter distance was decided upon? I was rather looking forward to the much higher limit, as it would finally have afforded some form of privacy in SL (which is currently non-existant, unless you have enough money to buy your own private island).

  35. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @31 Cliff: See #15 re the viewer double-check… /Sidewinder

  36. Sidewinder Linden says:

    #34 Your: Old data on wiki page – I’ll update it. Sorry about that. /Sidewinder

  37. JayR Cela says:

    I have been looking forward to this for some time now. The whole H4 team has been very professional in the way that the challenge was addressed, issues discussed, most problems resolved. I say this with tongue in cheek, and with all do respect to the other LL teams. But it sure would be nice if this sort of professionalism would rub off on the rest of the Company
    Way to go guys!!!!

    JayR Cela :_)

  38. Detox Watanabe says:

    @28: hmr1000

    did you study philosophy? xD

    it sounds a lot like it…

    everyone give sidewinder and the havok4 team a cookie. thats extraordinary work!

  39. les says:

    HOT SEKS!

    It’s been a long road. Congrats on a job well done.

    Too bad you have to merge with some of the worst network code ever. I’m a afraid all the “dont spend now” and “DB Down” stuff that happens daily might rain on your parade.

    Perhaps go down the hall and slap some people around!

    All said and done i very much look forward to this greatly increasing sim stablity.

    Gold star for each member of the H4 team 🙂

  40. Your Conscience says:

    Thanks Sidewinder, and woot for H4!

  41. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    Great development raising the build height limit. But how about upping the prim limit? Its no use having more space up top to build more stuff if you don’t have an increase in the amount of stuff you’re allowed to build!

  42. Musimba says:

    Good to know that Havok4 is finally rolling out. I remember Lindens telling me that Havok4 couldn’t be used because everything would have to be wiped and many of us could not understand why. Seems you are capable of doing what you originally stated was impossible.

  43. Pirate Russell says:

    Just another case of release something new and sexy, rather than fix the problems that plague us all!

  44. Wolfie Waves says:

    Yay nice to see all the hard paid off. My friends Early Adopter region has already restarted and has the new code now ^.^

    Working great, like all the other updates 😀

  45. Kraelen Redgrave says:

    Well it is now April 1st in my country.

    *Presses F5 repeatedly, waiting for the “we were joking” message*

  46. Bato Brendel says:

    Lemme tell you for all you non-believers it helps, and it help ALOT. Ive done myself alot of beta testing for boating and mass issues as well did a heck of alot of people. I’d like to publically thank myself everyone who was doing H4 beta testing and helped Sidewinder get it to allmost as possible to be just like the physics we are familiar with as of now.

    As for you thinking it wont help server crashes well lets just say on numerous occasions we put a massive stress test to the H4 servers that have been live and the servers handled it great. TD might go down as well as physics FPS but once the mess of 10000 physical prims was cleaned up the sim bounced back in moments and would not keel over and die! ARRR!

    As alot and probally the ‘educated’ people said the physics program is completely seperate development and work then the rest of LL is doing. Think of them as a ‘sub-division’ allmost. They have their job to do as do the other people at LL their own jobs to do. Thats like asking a C# programmer to go fix a server that is having hardware problems. That just isnt what they are trained to do. Dont group them all together as that would be pretty down right ignorant.

    Congrats Sidewinder and all the rest of the guys on the H4 team. Mugs of Grog are on me!

  47. Alex R says:

    Well maybe I’m just a superstitious engineer…. I would never ever ever release something to the general public on April First. 🙂

    But Good Luck!

  48. Damen Hax says:

    Excellent. The new limits (linked, building etc) will greatly improve the ability to make builds featuring more detail and functionality (linked messages).

    credit to the h4 team for nailing those last few bugs so fast & getting it ready for us all to enjoy.

  49. torridluna says:

    Hey, /me just got logged out of our sim, Meetingpoint. I guess that’s a good sign. 🙂 (We were in the Havok4 beta, and it felt really good lately.)

  50. Valric Fizgig says:

    Great job, the servers are improving. I’m hoping this includes the teen grid though too, right?

  51. latest version Guys says:

    havok 5! been out for a while now. why the old version?

    http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/567

  52. Mona says:

    Have you noticed that all those hug/kiss HUDs won’t work in Havok4 sims? The animations end up all over the place. Very funny for sure but not romantic 😛

  53. Wolfie Waves says:

    @51

    Because the H4 team have been working getting Havok4 on SL since before version 5 was released.

  54. SLsux says:

    Love it April 1st Mmm what a day

  55. Isablan Neva says:

    Thanks Sidewinder! It has been a privilege being part of the Early Adopter group and contributing to the advancement of SL!

  56. Ryu Darragh says:

    Hehe.. I already build at height and Sidewinder and friends have kindly fixed the “return if over old limit” bug when an H4 region is reset. I taught my rezzers to move objects from build below 768m to relative height above 768m (I build at 600m and tell the rezzer “Send to xxxx meters” relative).

  57. Loniki Loudon says:

    SL has been very unstable since the last server update last week. Will this overwrite that code? Sure it seems like the asset servers but I think a lot was linked to this server code as it was never this bad. When you buy an object, its in the asset server but its located on the sim and has to have some effect on it. I am hoping this new havok 4 code replaces that server code that was put in last week. If I remember right, the Havok test servers did not get that update.

  58. Argent Stonecutter says:

    @29: That’s right, and I’ve already got my scripts updated to do the right thing with the 4096 meter teleport limit, and it works great.

  59. honeydripper says:

    thanks guys…haven’t tried this yet but sounds promising

  60. les says:

    Pirate Russell Says:

    March 31st, 2008 at 5:45 PM
    Just another case of release something new and sexy, rather than fix the problems that plague us all!
    —-

    It’d be nice if people could get a clue about this….

    THIS IS AN IMPROVEMENT TO BASE STABILITY.

    thank you. carry on! 🙂

  61. Shai Khalifa says:

    Great to see H4 making it Gridside.

    My vote is for Sidewinder’s team to be held up as an example of the degree of diligence required for ALL the teams in LL.

    Sidewinder – the level of communication and interaction you and your team have had with the user base on this project is admirable, and a breath of fresh air for those of us battling with SL on a daily basis.

    /me raises glass to the H4 team for making it so far, in the knowledge that you will continue your unfailing bug-hunt post-implementation.
    😀

  62. TigroSpottystripes Katsu says:

    like I said before, please make the next step be switching to a free open-source phys engine, okie?

  63. Moose Maine says:

    Prays all goes well; bet’s Sidewinder isn’t sleeping yet. Breath SW – BREATH!

  64. Dante Tucker says:

    # LSL collision() events are broken
    # LSL VolumeDetect feature is broken

    This can’t still be true? Not with LL deploying the server.
    Tell me the wiki is outdated, please?

  65. reacher says:

    is April Fool’s Day the best choice of days to roll this out?

  66. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @52 Mona: Please IM me in-world to let me know which hug animations are not behaving, and so that I can see what is wrong with them. We did have a bug with that on earlier builds, but to my understand that issue has been resolved. If not, we’ll get it fixed, and to do that I’ll need to know some specifics as to what is not working. /Sidewinder

  67. Darien Caldwell says:

    “Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!” 🙂

  68. Kraelen Redgrave says:

    @65

    Of course it is. That way if everything doesn’t work out as planned and they have to roll back, they can just say “april fools!”.

  69. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @64 Dante: Yes the wiki is outdated. It may have been a bad call to publish that link, but I thoiught it would be better than nothing… Sorry about that. We will be assembilng a new information page as soon as possible, but frankly have been to focused on bug hunting and issue resolution to focus on cleaning that page up… /Sidewinder

  70. Istephanija Munro says:

    From what I have heard so far Havok4 is a step forward, however I barely crash, probably 2 times a week by being online 10 hours and more, having said that there are major issues with the asset servers, hopefully the new code isn’t premature again, the last 2 weeks been a major setback business wise i would hate to see it going more south!

    I am keeping my fingers crossed that this is the right decision at this state of daily failures!

    Good luck to us all 🙂

  71. Can you tell me how you can be sure after just one weekend where tps, and money transactions and delivery failures have shot through the roof? Sure might not be crashing as much, but that is because nothing is working and actually being done to crash anything…

    Will you also publicly post on the blog a big list of what is still broken in Havok 4 and what is still to fix eg vehicles and other outstanding issues.

  72. Chica Indigo says:

    Could you first make solve all the stability problems that are existen daily already? I almost had a heart attack today, no exagerations, My best friend and business partner account dissapeared and I thought she left me hanging alone in here cause YOU Lindens make her account dissapear someway, she was not even in search for God sake! This last week like all the previous ones has been like hell because the promised stability at the begining of the year has never come to us, we are constantly having more and bigger problems and this is BAD for business and for our blood pressure ;-( Yeah I must sound dramatic but I spend a lot of money here in business to loose it cause you dont keep your promises of making this place a little more stable 😦 So dont say YAY yet because of this announcement I betg it will be worse in here….About negative replies dont even care to write them I will not check this back. Im just ventilating my frustration thanks to SL.

  73. Sean Heying says:

    Thank you Andrew, Kelly, Simon, Dan, Sidewinder, Sabin, Lee and Prospero for doing the most responsive and valuable project I have seen.

    Us early adopters know the work you guys put in, and it is appreciated.

  74. Tiny Mind says:

    “DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!”

    Yeah, I said it! This is going to be hell-week for SL. 😉

    –a Mind is a Tiny thing to waste.

  75. Masuyo Aabye says:

    to all those NOOBs complaining about this release and teling LL to focus on stabiliyt first – Havok 4 and sim code is one of the underlying things of SL that directly relates to stability. what part of that do you not understand?

  76. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @71 Montana: Yes we will be posting open issues lists… just haven’t gotten that done yet. As far as crash results go, the simulator tracks physics crashes (which are 50-70% or more of the simulator crashes in the earlier version) separately from other sorts of crashes. This is how I will be able to provide specific crash rate analysis that separates out “other issues”. Regards, Sidewinder

  77. Whisper says:

    awesome work sidewinder, pass it on to the team 🙂

  78. hugsalot says:

    It’s really stupid to announce something like this so close to APRIL FOOLS DAY.

  79. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @73 Sean: Just an FYI – this release includes a partial fix for the bump-lag problem that you demonstrated yesterday. The fix is more effective on taller avatars (I know, I know… you’re short) but I’d like you to try it out and send me an IM in-world with some feedback if you wouldn’t mind – to understand if it is better for your avatar.

    Regards and thanks,

    Sidewinder

  80. hugsalot says:

    Jezz.. the big problems with Second Life Grid isn’t the stupid physics, but the asset/database server! How will something that will make “balls bounce more realistically” help overall grid performance and assess issues? Not a day goes buy when there’s a post on this blog telling people that stuff is broken again.

  81. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @72 Chico:

    “Could you first make solve all the stability problems that are existen daily already? ”

    This release is a project whose focus is stability, not features. If you had attended one of the 50+ office hours meetings you would have heard requests for new features with the consistent answer “we aren’t doing features in this release – it’s about stability”. I hope to provide statistical proof of the results within a few weeks of the rollout, and if the numbers are anything like what we’ve seen with the Early Adopter beta regions, you will see pretty conclusive proof that the Havok4-based simulator is much more stable.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  82. Detox Watanabe says:

    @75 (Masuyo-san): ignorance combined with frustration and some other things… I bet they will start complaining about how havok4 increased their crashes and how lindens should fix it… however, I doubt LL will ever send a service tech to their homes to freshly install their systems (properly, with good drivers and no “system enhancing” tools commonly known as malware)… or even worse… bring them a computer that is somewhat up to date…

    /me chuckles

    cant wait for tomorrow… havok4 gridwide wooot!!

  83. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @80 Hugsalot: Physics is not just about bouncing balls in Second Life. The older simulator would spontaneously crash from all sorts of behaviors of items that residents have built, from orange trees dropping oranges, to jumping dolphins, to cats that hit a couch too hard, to avatars accidentally teleporting into something, to avatars that would collide in “just the wrong way” – the list goes on and on. This new version dramatically reduces “incidental crashes” that very few people were aware came from physics failures. /Sidewinder

  84. Sean Heying says:

    @80 Hugsalot, its more than making balls bounce realisticly… its the lag you see when you walk (now reduced) The chance your simulator will crash to be too overloaded (substantially reduced) and a myriad of other things. This is one part of the jigsaw of stability everyone is calling for,

    Thanks for looking at the bump-lag issue a little Sidewinder, will check later tonight and IM.

  85. Moll Dean says:

    Hello all, Hi Sidewinder!

    We have been in the hell these days. Too much crashed and other issues at the same time. But I am sure this is due the new implementations, so I want to say that I wish you all H4 Team and others staff all good lucky to bring back SL to a usable 3D Game.
    I was waiting that in shortly time we could buy a install DVD to make our own PC a virtual land and be connected to other thru LL servers. But I see that it is going to opposite side. Will system run more into LL servers, right?

    Good luck! /me cross the fingers

  86. hugsalot says:

    Thanks for responding Sidewinder,, but the real issue with Grid stability is the asset servers. Not a day goes by with out some sort of problems, where we basically have to STOP doing what we are doing and wait, while the linden work around the problem, and NEVER FIX it.

    Tell me if this new havoc4 engine helps the database problems we’ve been having for the past few YEARS?

  87. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @86 hugsalot: This is not a project that directly affects asset server stability. At the same time, one persistent cause of content loss has been region crashes that then require a simstate revert – content created before the revert is lost. Reducing simulator crashes is another way that we are reducing content loss. I understand your frustration with the asset server issues. There are teams working on that issue, and it is a separate piece of work from this simulator update. Thanks, Sidewinder

  88. Detox Watanabe says:

    @86 hugsalot… ok, explain us all please how asset servers affect the grid stability. I sooo want to hear an explanation on THAT. *laughs*

  89. Wolf from Downunder says:

    @80 really?? good to know you are on the ball with these things…

    so you dont think its important that we have stable servers to run the sims from? meh why am i bothering, you and the others here posting similar complaints will not listen.

    yes there are probs with other parts of SL and if you actually read the “yellow posts” you will see that the havok 4 team is not resposible for these aspects and there are other teams working on them. *shock horror*

    sidwinder, i would also like to add my name to the posts thanking you and your team for a great job with the implementation of H4. From what i have experenced it makes a hell of a difference. 🙂

  90. hugsalot says:

    @89 I AM talking about stable servers, and my complains are completely valid here.

    But I find this incredibility redicilious that the Lindens simply shrug off responsibility to another group… “oh that’s dealt with a different team, we aren’t responsibility for that” This is like talking to some teenager with a minimum wage job at some department store “I don’t work in this department…” who is trying not to take any responsibilities for helping a customer.

    With that said, I also get the feeling that there’s no communication between these teams. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, and together if they do something that conflicts it can all go terribly wrong. And I’ve believe that his has happened many times in the past already, which can explain the current situation we are in.

    But I’m also not denying that (I hope) this will help the grid as a whole, I just contend that the asset server should be a bigger priority. Perhaps now it can be once this has rolled out?

  91. Steve Steed says:

    WOOT!!
    The time has come to say good bye to Havok™1
    Thanks to all you Early Adopter testers and Lindens that worked to test this.

    Thanks and Good job.
    Have a very good day!!

    And….
    I just want to tell you Lindens good luck. We’re all counting on you …

  92. JJ Niven says:

    Well you may bitch about stability. But the grid is far more stable and SL runs far better than it did 1 year ago. And this is with double the number of online users. Yes, asset servers are a problem. They’ll get it fixed. Reducing sim crashes significantly with this new code will be a very nice boost to stability and should be welcomed by all.

  93. Istephanija Munro says:

    Funny some people getting called noobs and laughed at without getting a proper answer to their questions. Some people here are SL Fulltimers and we rely on stability in order to have food on the table. Fact is that the latest code woke up all the little gizmos that lead to a complete failure of Second Life over the last 2 weeks, the latest restart made things even worse.

    I think it is a legit question to ask if Havok4 has ANY influence, good or bad on the asset servers.

    People are pessimistic because new code never came with an improvement and the last thing business need right now is another problem.

    If havok4 has no effect whatsoever on the current issues in a good and a bad way it is an unnecessary risk. I am really looking forward to H4 but I am not sure it should be deployed during a phase that is without a doubt the worst within the last 6 weeks.

    H4 wouldn’t be worse in a week!

    Point taken?

  94. Tensai Hilra says:

    Good deal with the whole rollout thing… just wondering if I’m unique in seeing OmegaRotate being hosed? I keep having to re-rez rotating things after each restart. Script init even fails… just checking…

  95. How are mega-prims handled? i backed out of the early adopter program because it ruined my builds.

  96. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @91 Hugsalot: I am not “shrugging off responsibility”, I am just explaining that I and the Havok4 team are doing our part, and to complain that our part doesn’t fix another part of the system does not seem to be effective at accomplishing a goal. /Sidewinder

  97. Wolf from Downunder says:

    @89 see the thing is that the asset server proberly has a higher prority and they “may” have a bigger team working on the problems there. As stated here and in other blog entries, each of these areas would require ppl who are specialised in a different field, just because someone works as a programmer does not mean they can just slot into any part of the project and work miracles.

    yes i also admit that the PR deparment for LL needs to pull their finger out and do what they do best, or at the very least have Philip release a statement telling us that things are of key at the moment and they are doing their best to fix. But beating poor sidwiner and his crew over the head cause the asset servers are not right is just plain wrong. if you have played with havok 4 and have fault, be my guest as thats what he is responsable for. But at least cut him some slack when it comes to things outside his control.

    anways have a great second life… and

    LL thanks for Havok 4 and WL, bring on Mono 🙂

  98. Jaxx Tardis says:

    @whee! Here we go! Hope this fixes a glitch in the game i just bought. Sidewinder, you must be a red dragon cause you seem flame-proof. Anyway, hoping for many good things form that. Ground collisions on phantom objects lag some sims i know of (animals). Looking forward to testing things out in the near future. I’m confused, is the new build floor 1024 or 4096? I play around with targeted impulse driven rockets fairly often.

  99. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @95 Tensai: I have not heard this reported before. Are you talking about llTargetOmega? Could you provide a sample script and a step by step process for how to make it fail? If so, we’ll take a look at the issue. I don’t think this has been prevalent across the Early Adopter regions, but it could be that the conditions are different on your region. Thanks, Sidewinder

  100. How does one determine the fine taste of a simulator?

  101. Sean Heying says:

    @96 Megaprims are handled correctly, and you can now for the first time stand inside a hollowed, non-physical prim, in Havok1 you floated to the top.

  102. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @96 HatHead: What problems were you seeing with megaprims? It is hard to answer your question without knowing the specifics. By the way, if you read the announcement post from last week there is information on megaprims and much discussion of the topic. /Sidewinder

  103. The asset server is one problem – physics is another. What you will find with Havok 4 is that it will be harder for griefers to crash a sim by overloading the system. Unfortunately, people will have to build a better griefer. The current plague of problems with inventory and the asset server is not the same, but physics is just as important since, as Sidewinder says, the physics system is responsible for anywhere up to 70% of simulator crashes.

    I fail to see how this is continually lost on people.

  104. Sean Heying says:

    doh, non-phantom, not non-physical. (chews another blog spot with his correction – sorry)

  105. nimrod yaffle says:

    Wow… nice job replying to comments Sidewinder. Lindens rarely do it, but it is nice to see that happening!

  106. CC says:

    PLEASE FIX!! NOT BANDAID THE STALE MONEY TRANSFERS BEFORE YOUI DO ANYTHING THIS NEEDS TO BE FIX NOT BANDAIDED!!!!

  107. Pol McLaglen says:

    I am so looking forwards to testing this out. Might make flying my planes easier……

    Well done guys for having the brass balls to go straight to v4 instead of 2 or 3…

    Pol.

  108. S Lemaire says:

    Brilliant heres hoping for more stability

  109. Argent Stonecutter says:

    One problem, it seems like “no script” on a parcel applies indefinitely, instead of just being limited to the access controlled zone near the ground. This is going to cause problems for aircraft that have scripted flaps and particle exhaust and multiple passenger seats.

  110. Found the post and read through the comments – ty sidewinder. I did not bother to read through posts/comments on Havok4 until it was ready for prime time production so that is why I asked the question – not so interested in development where things are in a state of change; only roll-out.

    Cheers!

  111. Pingback: Massively

  112. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @110 Argent: I’m not quite sure what you mean – do you mean that no script extends into the air? /Sidewinder

  113. Ener Hax says:

    woot! great job team! can’t wait to see it in action. this is really major. thank you all! 🙂

  114. Conveyician Morigi says:

    I also say “Thank You” to LL and the H4 team. Additionally, the more accurate the input they receive from us, and in a timely fashion, the sooner they can account for all the different variables and provide solutions. This work has just begun…I am excited to experience H4 in it’s entirety. Teamwork.

    @ 17 Chalice….yum!

  115. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Yes. In H1 you could fly up a hundred meters or so and your scripts would run. I just tried it in Havok 4 (to get some scripted wings to furl in a no-script zone) and even above 250 meters they remained open after I stopped flying. The animation scripts in the root prim were still running, but the visibility scripts in the child prims weren’t. I flew across to a H1 sim, stopped flying, and they furled immediately.

  116. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @116 Argent – that sounds like a good topic to talk with the dev team about at office hours if you can make it this week 🙂 Thanks, Sidewinder

  117. Argent Stonecutter says:

    The problem with office hours is that they are during office hours. If you know what I mean. 🙂

  118. @80 and the rest of you whiners: Anyone with even a 4th grade understanding of computers should realize that if your computer crashes, you aren’t getting anything done no matter how fast it is. Making the servers stable was the most important project for Second Life’s future.

    Every time a server crashes, it has to reboot obviously. And that puts a huge strain on the asset server as 15,000 prims are reloaded. Since it is MUCH harder to crash a Havok4 sim, this will happen less, resulting in less strain on the admittedly overtaxed asset servers.

    And perhaps more importantly, now that Linden Labs doesn’t have to spend so much time holding hands with island owners, they can focus on fixing and beefing up the infrastructure.

    I just hope they have enough sense to scrap the current database and build a new one in parallel. One that doesn’t take over 4K to hold one prim (as documented in the wiki.)

  119. Tensai Hilra says:

    @100 Sidewinder – NP, I will approach the llOmegaTarget probem after the sims are deployed.. no sense worrying about it if it’s not common… It only seems to occur on restarts anyhow.

    Symptoms if you want to play with it: llTargetOmega(,1,1) rotating a two stage rotation… I use these alot in Orrery’s…

    on a simulator restart (while the object is on) the objects will stop and cease rotation… the on-click scripts ignore the rotation request and I need to re-rez the item. Has happend a few times(4), but without restarting the sim(and not every time) it’s almost impossible to reproduce.

  120. Tensai Hilra says:

    hmm… @120 the system stripped all the coding but it’s a standard llTargetOmega script one line with two linked parts and two different vectors

  121. U M says:

    This is wonderful news!!!!!!!!!!

  122. Shire Pony says:

    @116: Ya know Argent, I always considered that to be a bug not a *feature*. If the parcel owner sets their parcel to no script it should function parcel wide, and that includes above 250m. No script should apply equally on the ground as it does up in the owners skybox.

    I for one am happy to see that hole plugged.

  123. Dallas Seaton says:

    hugsalot: “It’s really stupid to announce something like this so close to APRIL FOOLS DAY.”

    No, actually its really stupid to call that stupid based on a silly superstition.

    hugsalot: “But I find this incredibility redicilious that the Lindens simply shrug off responsibility to another group… “oh that’s dealt with a different team, we aren’t responsibility for that” This is like talking to some teenager with a minimum wage job at some department store “I don’t work in this department…” who is trying not to take any responsibilities for helping a customer.

    With that said, I also get the feeling that there’s no communication between these teams. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, and together if they do something that conflicts it can all go terribly wrong. And I’ve believe that his has happened many times in the past already, which can explain the current situation we are in.

    But I’m also not denying that (I hope) this will help the grid as a whole, I just contend that the asset server should be a bigger priority. Perhaps now it can be once this has rolled out?”

    Sidewinder very patiently answered your first few postings. This one just makes you look – umm, let me put this nicely – uninformed. You obviously don’t understand engineering, or you’d understand that it makes sense to have different teams working on different sections of large, interconnected systems such as SL. I’m frustrated with asset servers too, but the Havok4 team IS contributing positively to system stability with this release.

  124. DolphPun says:

    Viva CHANGE and GROWTH!

    Grats folks!

    Have a non-dramatic day!

  125. Eddy Ofarrel says:

    I’m just wondering (and it doesn’t seem to have been answered clearly in the comments)…
    Has the list of Known Bugs at the end of the What’s New page linked to in this post not been updated, or is it being released with those bugs still there?

  126. The nature of this change in the physics system is such that there will be fewer problems, but not anything that is dramatically, obviously, doing something better. It’s unshiney and will be largely forgotten in no more than a few weeks.

    Thanks for your soon to be unsung hard work.

  127. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @126 Eddy: That is not updated… you’re correct. I am working through pjira and internal jira and will be assembling a current list of open items. Regards, Sidewinder

  128. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @126 Eddy: OH! I just saw the link to the first (very first) beta release notes from six months ago. Ouch. I had missed that one sorry – it’s going away so it doesn’t cause more confusion. /Sidewinder

  129. Dallas Seaton says:

    #126 Eddy: You didn’t read the comments very carefully – go back and look at #64 and #69.

  130. Eddy Ofarrel says:

    Ooops… sorry… I missed that one… I did read through all the comments quickly… and also searched this page for Known Bugs and one of the other bugs that’s mentioned there… but not the ones mentioned in comment #64… bah 😛

    So I thought no one had mentioned it, and I noticed Sidewinder had updated another part of that page in response to a comment here, but not touched the Known Bugs.

  131. Nomeda Coage says:

    How will this affect the average Second Lifer? Apart from the obvious problem resolutions, of course.

    And will this include fixes for any other bugs? I’m hoping it includes one for an attachment glitch…

    But any update is a good one 😀

  132. Vryl Valkyrie says:

    Hi and thanks for answering everyone’s questions Sidewinder. Good job. Can you please tell us if these rumors of whether mega prims will be phased out with this new server is true or not? Thank you.

  133. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @133 Vryl: No, megaprims will not be phased out with this new server release. Please see the release announcement post last week, which had an extensive discussion of megapims. They are not supported in the sense that we are not providing creation or editing tools, but they will not be removed either. /Sidewinder

  134. jane says:

    Good to know that SL is going to a more stable way. Has the development team thinkted about that you first update all sandboxes or a part of it with the new engine? Because, some of it are really laggy particularly for poeple from europe who are going to it. And again especially this where situated on a SF located server.

  135. Jessicka Graves says:

    I’ll believe it when I see it, right now, LL could tell me the sky is blue and I wouldn’t waste my time looking up.

  136. U M says:

    In all fairness many of us have been waiting for this H4 for a very long time. Until proven wrong i giving the grid monkeys the advantage by saying let them make or break it………….Many of us that been active inthe push for H4 believes they will get it right…..

    Usagi

  137. Tegg B says:

    hugsalot Says: “Jezz.. the big problems with Second Life Grid isn’t the stupid physics, but the asset/database server! How will something that will make “balls bounce more realistically” help overall grid performance and assess issues? Not a day goes buy when there’s a post on this blog telling people that stuff is broken again.”
    Yes well this team are fixing the balls boucing problems, so get off their back and go annoy the team doing asset/database.

    Good work team, cool stuff ahead by the sounds of it as Havok evolves 🙂

  138. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    @138: i think they already replied to the same exact concerns. H4 is not “bouncing balls”, and it is only a “part” of Second Life, it’s not only Sidewinder, Kelly that are working at the whole servers and grid systems (including assets), but it’s a team, each team have a specific role (and skills) and they covers individual aspect to make the grid more stable, the physics (again it’s not only bouncing balls, it covers a wider range of a simulator functions, including avatars!) is only one of these aspects. So they are not “stealing” time to fix the assets problems because they are investing it into “making balls bounching better”, because these persone wouldn’t have worked at the assets server anyway (there’s another team doing it!).
    Developing teams doesn’t work like a single entity.

  139. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    (clearly my previous comment is not @138 .. but at the guy quoted there… hugsalot 😛 ).

  140. Lupercaleb Walcher says:

    i sure hope this isn’t an april fools joke

  141. Sling Trebuchet says:

    Thank goodness the extended build height is not going to be implemented yet.
    That leaves the window open for some sane decision making.

    If we must have areas restricted by verification status, then it would be REALLY sensible to restrict *access* to high altitudes.
    That would allow those global restrictions to operate without totally destroying ground level with a maze of ban lines.
    IF IDV goes ahead with current thinking, it’s going to utterly destroy the joys of wandering around the grid and discovering the weird and wonderful builds that people create.

    Brilliant. Better vehicles with H4, but with a minefield of (age) restricted areas to break the avatars in them.

  142. U M says:

    The increase in population is what the big issue here. Fast better less bulky …………….less fat mean trimmer and easy running srervers…….

  143. Dwayne Oliva says:

    Sidewinder: You mentioned a day or so ago about being interested in the “av gliding” bug, I’m more than happy to demonstrate in-world, pick any CCS enabled server, attach a gun or a knife/sword to your av’s hands, turn any AO off and watch your Av glide around like they’re on ice skates, tried it with over 6 different weapons manufacturors too, was consistant across the board. Delta, Black Ops, Breach etc, seems to be if youre ‘holding’ anything, when you walk your legs lock up and you scoot around.

  144. Matthew Dovey says:

    Sidewinder,

    A few suggestions:

    A headline such as “More Stable Second Life Simulator” after one and half weeks of daily problems with inventory and L$ transactions is a red rag to a bull. I know that the Havok4 team are not directly responsible for those problems and are also pride and excited that what they’ve been working on is final at the last leg – but given the last week of problems a little more tact might have got a more postive reaction!

    “Testing this weekend turned up a couple of issues that we took care of this morning” – is a little worrying. It is a general principle of software testing that the version rolled out in release is identical to the last release candidate. If a release candidate shows up problems, the fixes are deployed in a further release candidate before deploy. You don’t change things just before deployment. In practice this principle can get overruled by deadlines or other concerns, but normally comes back to bite you when you do ignore it! (I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that someone made some last minute changes to the baggage software at Heathrow T5 just before it opened…)

  145. bigmoe whitfield says:

    Sidewinder good work. I managed to kill the crash me sim in under 2 minutes a while back and decided to go visit again. I pulled out my bulk package of 14k beach balls and was unable to preform the same thing this time. Good job on that 🙂 Dan linden was impressed how fast I was able to crash it lol. Im me in world for the pictures lol

  146. Sonja Felisimo says:

    Good Luck with the deployment of H4 😉 should be interesting if it really does make a difference………oh and sidewinder glad to see some at LL with the balls to reply to comments…….nice one 🙂

    @144………….who cares if you skate around wearing weapons…….look stupid enough just wearing them if you ask me………..go play silly war games else where if it bothers you that much 😉

  147. Sonja Felisimo says:

    @145…………the problems at T5 Heathrow were probably caused by some wearing 100 attachments with bling walking into the terminal……:):);)

  148. Dwayne Oliva says:

    @147

    Apparantly Sidewinder cares, hence my reply, you’ll also note that my last sentance says ‘if you’re holding “anything” so if that bears out to be the case, you may well find its more than the ‘silly war games” users that get bothered about it. *shakes his head

  149. la le lu says:

    OH NO! AN APRIL FOOL!!!!

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