Forum Facelift

Recently I was approached by two Second Life Residents about revitalizing the Resident Moderator program on the forums. They had a group of people who had volunteered to help moderate the forums, given that the current program has effectively ended.

We decided not to take them up on this very generous offer, not because we don’t believe that Residents should have a role, but because the forums are about to get a new Linden owner – welcome Katt Linden! – and I want to wait to decide the best way to proceed.

We’ve debated for a long time on the role of the Linden Lab forums and have at various times considered the following arguments for closing them down:

– Linden Lab has other ways to communicate and gather feedback
– people aren’t always very nice to each other
– there are other forums run by Second Life Residents
– we don’t have the staff to manage the discussion at the level we think is needed
– people should interact in Second Life rather than on the website

and so on.

At this point my plan is to work with Katt Linden to update the vBulletin software, map out a plan for revitalizing the forums and integrating them with the blog. Updating guidelines, revisiting permanent bans, archiving and creating new forums will all be part of what we look at. I’m sure you all will have lots of input, so please discuss with us here.

In the meantime, many thanks go to the Residents who have helped with moderation in the past, as well as to those who volunteered to help with moderation in the future. Volunteers are very important to us, and we appreciate their willingness to pitch in to make Second Life better for us all.

And special thanks to Nika Talaj and Qie Niangao for all their thoughtful input on improving the forums.

Previous Resident Moderators
Adam Zaius
Alan Kiesler
Cybin Monde
Damien Fate
Satchmo Prototype
Lash Xevious
Barbarra Blair
Elle Pollack
Euterpe Roo
Jana Fleming
Millie Thompson
Steve Steed
Strife Onizuka

New Volunteers
1. Yumi Murikami
2. Dannoth Dagger
3. Jeb Gibb
4. Oryx Tempel
5. Adz Childs
6. Kokoro Fasching
7. Okiphia Rayna/Anatine
8. Broccoli Curry
9. Joker Opus
10. Alyx Sands
11. Chance Abbatoir
12. Jellin Pico
13. nimrod Yaffle
14. Void SInger
15. bobbyb30 Zohari
16. Jaime Salman
17. Strauss Ulderport
18. Nyte Vargas
19. Tygers Dagger
20. Darien Caldwell
21. Micheal Moonlight
22. Element Smirnov
23. Rhyph Somme
24. Turbo Streeter
25. Natalie Oe
26. Mandy Carbenell
27. Samantha Goldflake
28. Gordon Wendt
29. Ann Launay
30. Angel Fluffy
31. Ramo Benedek

About Robin Linden

Be the Change. You must be the change you wish to see in the world. ---Mahatma Gandhi
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122 Responses to Forum Facelift

  1. Pingback: roflburger: LL to facelift their forums - SLUniverse Forums

  2. Keira Wells says:

    #7 of the new volunteers, Okiphia Rayna/Anatine no longer exist in either of those forms.

    I am them though, Keira Wells

  3. Beezle Warburton says:

    “update the vBulletin software”

    Did you run out of bigger and scarier things? 😀

  4. Samantha Goldflake says:

    Well, I confirm I do still exist, lol.

  5. Lizzy Saintlouis says:

    Revamp, fine, but please please please do not discontinue the forums. I have found TONS of help in the scripting and building areas. Linden can’t possibly have all the answers. Don’t muffle the residents.

  6. Gillian Waldman says:

    I don’t take much part in the discussion on the forums now, but I do use the forums to find new products and try to visit that section several times a week. It’s the most useful place to find out what’s been released for sale that day.

    Please consider taking the advice of more than just 2 residents (*boggles*) when you make changes to the forums.

  7. Broccoli Curry says:

    I look forward to doing my bit to help the community. Thankyou.

    By the way, the “(R)” person with post #1 is not me. In case you hadn’t guessed.

  8. You know… seems to me moderators or volunteer moderators would have the restraint to avoid posting 3 word posts like ‘I like pie’. That’s really mature. It looks like a forum junkie trying to get that 1 more post that makes them uber leet poster.

  9. EliteData says:

    Perhaps this might curb the constant trolling that continually goes on in the forums as of now ?
    Because i chose to no longer post there as a result of it.
    Im sorry to say i do have a vast wealth of knowledge in the technical aspects of how the client and server communicate, that i will be no longer sharing this information or supplying help to new residents in the forum until its moderated at a decent level.
    I belong to alot of other technical forums that are not even related to SecondLife and i have never seen a forum such as this so badly moderated and out of control.
    I hope the forums change for the better.

  10. Malachi Petunia says:

    Ambitious objectives. When?

  11. Thormec Micheline says:

    I’ve found more help on the forums than I have within SL – that’s an understatement. And one time when I had a serious problem logging on the SL tech support was a joke, but the help from residents got me on. It would be unfortunate, especially for avatars between newbie and experienced, to lose the forums – and that’s an understatement too.

  12. Ciaran Laval says:

    “people aren’t always very nice to each other”

    Oh come on, we all get on like a house on fire 😉 Worse things happen inworld.

    A more general discussion area may alleviate the problems that EliteData points too, shoe the idle chit chat there and moderate more forecfully in the other areas.

    The forums can be really helpful, I am told they were a bit problematic before when you had general areas but it just seems to be the obvious answer, you could even invite Prok back into the general one.

  13. Qie says:

    Robin, thanks, and Katt, welcome! 🙂

    @#8, please understand that, however unsuccessful we may have been in trying to solicit input from the Forums community, we *did* try, in numerous threads, and tried also to be as transparent as possible in organizing and presenting the collected input. That said, the criticism of limited input is nonetheless valid: we really only had access to the active Forums users, which was the source of some hand-wringing: sort of “preaching to the choir” in reverse. Fortunately, this blog post itself solicits wider input with the linked Forums thread, so I hope everyone will use that to make known their aspirations for better Forums.

    All in all, excellent news and an eagerly awaited announcement.

  14. Solomon Devoix says:

    [QUOTE=Chris Norse]Monday, March 31st, 2008 at 11:08 AM by: Robin Linden

    We’ve debated for a long time on the role of the Linden Lab forums and have at various times considered the following arguments for closing them down:

    – Linden Lab has other ways to communicate and gather feedback[/QUOTE]
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

    Suuuuuuure they do…

  15. bradley palmer says:

    I have found the forums incredibly helpful with many many different aspects of SL. Just reading the different threads have helped me enormously. Didnt need to post there but just read, what a wealth of knowledge and advice.
    I find the waffle and banter tedious though. If I want waffle and banter I would go to another forum.
    The technical and SL related help is invaluable and should never be lost.
    Maybe there needs to be some seperation between help and play type posts.
    It can get tiresome to wade through pages of pie and panties type posts when youre trying to find out how to find things underground.
    Even more tiresome to have to wade through pages of a flame war.
    I hope the help part of the forum is not lost or changed too much.

  16. saddeneyes says:

    It sadden me to see that LL has nothing better to do with their time but to put who is who on a website, I think all knows who is who and who doesn’t care if there is still IN World Issues going on as I speak now. I wish LL would fixed the problems that are in game now before thinking about bring out another update. I’m like most residents of the community getting tried of problems and they usually happen on the weekends when most of the time it takes many reports before it is fixed , 1 report just don’t do it anymore. 😦 . Welcome to all the new people. But really LL , it isn’t like we really care to know , all we want is a smooth viewer with NO bugs, problems every week .
    saddeneyes wondering if there will every be a smooth viewer once again … :(((((

  17. saddeneyes, the forums are a great source of information for help. They are a tremendous resource for builders, scripters, etc. and are more responsive, creative and helpful than going to the wiki. SL has a host of problems, and disseminating information that helps people create the space you enjoy is just as important as getting the space up and running.

  18. Chrystin Hathor says:

    I find the forums extremely helpful. Not only for the help residents provide with scripting and other areas, but for the classified. It’s the first place I check every day about new products that are offered. In addition, the real estate postings are also extremely valuable.

  19. Isabeau Imako says:

    Looking forward to the facelift! 🙂

    I hope you decide to keep a place where residents can ask newbie questions. Being completely new to both SL and computers, I would have been lost if it weren’t for the immediate help and suggestions I got in the RA section. I’d like to think I helped a few in return.

    It’s not always easy at first to get help inworld when you aren’t exactly familiar with the terminology. You’re not even sure what it is you need help with…
    Lurking in a forum where questions are answered almost instantaneously is the preferred way for many. Heck, some people are just shy at first.

    We don’t all learn using the same methods. Some are more visual (Torley videos!), some ‘get’ technical terms right away, others prefer using Voice, or inworld classes. Some enjoy using a variety of those, depending on the subject. Unless it costs a lot, why not have as many alternate ways of reaching/helping people. How can ‘more’ choices be a bad thing? There should be a place for everyone.

    If it’s at all possible, please consider keeping an area where residents help other residents. For others and I, RA has been the preferred place to go when problems needed immediate solving, (I guess I’m impatient, lol)

    Thank you

  20. Toad Mougin says:

    “We’ve debated for a long time on the role of the Linden Lab forums and have at various times considered the following arguments for closing them down: [bullet list of five points]”

    So you’ve not considered good reasons for leaving them alone?? Like that the forums offer a damn sight better level of support to users’ questions than anything Linden can offer?? (pffft.)

  21. Broccoli Curry says:

    @ #10 Nulflux Negulesco: That first post is NOT me. I have no idea who has chosen to try and use my name with a “(R)” on the end of it.

    Please don’t confuse me, who has been here over a year, with that person. Thanks!

  22. Codezero Bulloch says:

    Well why not use SL mentors to moderate as well?

    I like chicken pot pie.

  23. Why the proprietary VBulletin rather than the opensource PHPbb?

  24. Forums are not a terribly good medium for making announcements – blogs are very good for that sort of thing. On the other hand, forums _are_ good for allowing people to engage in discussion about various topics; that is what they are designed for. Wikis and JIRAs and blogs and such are simply not the correct tools for that job.

    Really, they should not be looked at as a tool for LL to get feedback, rather as a central community resource for discussion on general sociological as well as technical matters. The community is what makes SL, after all.

  25. Gordon Wendt says:

    Very nice to hear that the forum is getting some attention. I think VBCode is the big issue on everyone’s mind but hopefully Katt will shed some more light on what he(she?,they?) have in mind for it.

  26. Jessica Hultcrantz says:

    The forums are valuable, DON’T close them.

    There are a few areas that has been EXTREMELY helpfull compared to the official ways to get information and that is:
    a) the scripting sections of the forum. Invaluable knowledge is gathered there for anyone wanting to get to learn scripting. Good examples of code with comments. Why remove that???
    b) the linux forum, which also has proven to be invaluable for us who run the linux viewer. Why close down the best ever support channel for us???

    But a facelift is needed indeed 🙂

  27. Sedary Raymaker says:

    – Linden Lab has other ways to communicate and gather feedback

    Like JIRA, the occasional blog post, and the very occasional “office hours”? Erf.

    – people aren’t always very nice to each other

    Might as well shut down SL if that’s considered a good reason.

    – there are other forums run by Second Life Residents

    There are other blogs, too. Relying on residents to run forums dedicated to your product would just be immensely cheap. Plus it would lose any sort of “feedback” possibility.

    – we don’t have the staff to manage the discussion at the level we think is needed

    That I’ll buy, though I’m a little tired of being policed by LL anyway.

    – people should interact in Second Life rather than on the website

    Forums are totally different than in-world. You can’t head to a place in-world and run a search for a discussion that occurred in public chat when you weren’t there.

    All in all, I’m glad you aren’t closing down the forums, since you don’t seem to have any really good reasons for it.

  28. Cocoanut Koala says:

    VBulletin upgrade – does that mean we will be able to underline, center, bold, and color things again? And post links that work? That would be terrific!

    —–

    I hope you have no plans to get rid of the Classified forums. It is one way for people to spotlight their new items and services at no cost – except the effort involved. Anyone who wants to make the effort can put their product in the Classifieds forum.

    At one time, you had considered getting rid of the Classified forums altogether.

    I hope you aren’t considering doing that again.

    As it stands, unless a person is willing to pay 5k – 80k or more to show up on the first page of the in-game classifieds tab (or has a VERY niche product), the likelihood is that very few people will ever go to that person’s store.

    It is wonderful to have a place where people can spotlight their products without having to pay $20 to $320 real life dollars each and every week in order to be readily found by their potential customers.

    Please keep the Forum Classifieds. They don’t hurt anyone, and they help us.

    coco

  29. Toad Mougin says:

    From the blog posting: “people should interact in Second Life rather than on the website”

    Do you expect people to stand around on help island all evening?? – the joy of the forums is that people can read them when they like, and even research an answer before posting, rather than guessing on the spot while up to their shoulders in goatse particle spam

  30. Rebecca Proudhon says:

    May I suggest that three new forums be opened.

    1. General SL discussion
    2. Off-Topic
    3. Resident Suggestions

    And may I suggest that “Resident Answers” be changed to
    “Linden Answers” and have real Lindens helping new people or people with questions.

    I find it hard to believe that that forum cannot have actual company support 24/7 for people. A Technical Support fourm with actual Linden personal would also make sense.

  31. Sir Defiant says:

    While you are on the subject of forum revamp and moderation, I would like to add the same could be applied to this here blog. The post limit, combined with the amount of off topic replies makes it extremely difficult to get a relevant view across, and when one is made it is swallowed in the snarl of drivel. Would the new forum team be willing to take responsibility for the blog, delete the random rubbish and abuse and provide a blog where we can actually communicate with LL and have them reply?

  32. Chris says:

    Looks at at least more than one name in the new volunteers list with a raised eyebrow, given their past behavior in Second Life® and trolling of other SL® related forums!!! Maybe the vetting process needs a bit more work here Linden Labs!

  33. Toad Mougin says:

    @30 – there used to be a forum called Linden answers where LL used to participate – they pulled it about a year ago

  34. Aaron J. Freeman says:

    I like Pie,
    The Cake is a lie,
    Ice Cream for Allies.

    In world interactions are on Text Chat, which is less transient that Voice, but still rather transient. Forums are a much more stable environment for help, and the Knowledge Base used to refer to it frequently, but the forums are closed to those of us Sans Plastic. A lot belongs in the forums, before posting to Jira, but I can’t even read the forums, because the unplasticked aren’t allowed to write to them.
    The Forums, Jiras, Wikis and KB should all be working togeather with Mentors and others, but the Forums are a substantial inability, due to a policy that makes no sense.
    Someone has to pay for the forum space, as with any other theatre, but the wall around The Central Park Croquet Field came down in the 20th Century.

    Frankly, I’m surprised to see so little of the Off Topic Flooding, that belongs in the Forums.

  35. How about fixing the money problems within SL. It is killing the economy money failing every 45 mins.

  36. If the forums were open to all, rather than just premiums, that would open them, and the feedback, to a much greater variety of people. An example was lack of ability to become premiums outside of the US to start with. That has partly been addressed by the new payment options, but often answers and indeed further info from Lindens have only been available on the forums. Many of us find out our info therefore from SLX and other forums.

    I’d have thought LL would have learnt by now that residents do not want LESS contact, but more. There is, finally, a lot more work going on with the Knowledge Base and the wiki too, but really all of them, including the JIRA, need a substantial makeover to be truly useful to all, resident and Lindens alike.

  37. Kazuma says:

    Forums are still useful…such as the scripting library/tips…yes those things could be incorporated into the lslwiki, but noway as helpful.

  38. bobbyb30 zohari says:

    What exactly does new volunteer mean?

  39. Raudf Fox says:

    I do think we need the General Discussions back, regardless. I love Resident Answers, but we need a place for the users to hang out and chat, especially when SL goes offline for any reason. The first place new users are going to turn to is the official website and it’s forums, not some third party forum, no matter how popular that site might be.

    Over the years of being in SL, most of what I’ve learned, I’ve learned via the forums. It’s always been a comfort to know that when I needed to know something, it is there for me to find out simply by asking my fellow residents. It should also be a place for me to *ahem* rant when SL is borked yet again and swap sympathy for the withdrawl symptoms.

    I still think closing the GD board was the wrong way to go. And I’d love for GD to come back, so I can have my last post there deleted.

  40. Esch Snoats says:

    “- Linden Lab has other ways to communicate and gather feedback”

    Fine, but the fast majority of the USERS don’t.

    “- people aren’t always very nice to each other”

    How is this different from being on the grid or the internet in general?

    “- there are other forums run by Second Life Residents”

    So?

    “- we don’t have the staff to manage the discussion at the level we think is needed”

    I’ll give you that one.

    “- people should interact in Second Life rather than on the website”

    You expect us to go all over the grid asking people questions looking to get an answer? No. The forums are a great resource that has been severely under appreciated by LL since day one. It’s a great centralized location for information and using the search feature in it is 1000 times faster than going all over the grid looking for someone to help you out or get advice.

  41. Ric Mollor says:

    Hopefully one of the changes will be to eliminate the need to log in when viewing the forums. The decision to make the forums and the knowledge base unviewable without a login has also prevented search engines from indexing and archiving the material.

    I can understand LL’s desire to drive up page views and stickiness on their site by doing this but preventing this indexing has made it _much_ more difficult to find information.

  42. Bradley Bracken says:

    I finally had to leave the forums because of quickly it deteriorated without moderation. I look forward to seeing what changes will take place and appreciate you listening to our concerns, Robin. I’d love to make my exodus a brief vacation instead.

    Regarding the new volunteers. Please look and make sure they’ve not been a part of the problem before trying to make them part of the solution. I’m sure you’d planned to do that already, but I just needed to emphasize it.

  43. Faith Easterman says:

    Please Please dont close the forums.

    Like a lot of other people, and as a basic account, I find the previous posts invaluable when I have a problem or query that I can not find the answer to on the support pages or inworld via help island. These are a great resource to us all.

  44. thebookstacks says:

    the forums are a medium of record, people can go there to look for information on past events, and used it to solve future problems.
    With no history we are doomed to repeat our mistakes. whether they are personal incompatibilities or hardware and software compatabilities.

    we need a history the TOS effectively denies us one in world, why do you want to deny us one out world?

  45. Chaos says:

    we do really need a General chat in the forums 2, otherwise resident answers gets flooded with general chit chat

  46. Marni Grut says:

    I really think liden need to consider that some resident without payment info on file want to view the forums. Im on of these players, i dont have payment info simply becuase i own and SL shop and easily cover all my SL costs via that.

    I can undersatnd the need to have payment info on file to POST (stopping alt spam accounts) But i think EVERYONE should be able to veiw them.

    Marni

  47. Blinders Off says:

    To be truthful, it amazes me that LL is so up in the air on how to conduct a forum for Second Life. It’s pretty obvious we don’t want it to be a flamer board, nor do we want it to be a coporate business propaganda system.

    Successful forums exist all over the internet. The good ones have common traits:
    * They don’t allow obscenity
    * They require maturity from their members
    * They don’t allow flaming or personal attacks
    * They have specifically stated rules and enforce those rules

    To find successful forums, I might recommend visiting professional forum systems such as PC World or PC Magazine. They are designed to be user-friendly and for the good of their users without permitting in any way trolls to take over the board. They’re pretty successful.

    The concept isn’t that difficult. Simply examine the example of those who have succeeded.

  48. Ann Otoole says:

    some of those new volunteers represent a real rouge’s gallery.

    /me sees a major continuation of drama ahead.

  49. I’ve been told that thankfully the above list isn’t indicative of new moderators and is instead just those (not all, since I volunteered too and my lack of recognition is a grievous slight!) who volunteered to do it before. It’s just a thank you letter, not an appointment.

    Whew.

  50. Robin Linden says:

    A couple of things to note…

    – the plan is to revitalize, not close the forums
    – we agree that the list of reasons to close is weak, and that’s why we’re looking at revitalizing them
    – I want to thank the people who volunteered, although I plan to move ahead with Linden moderators

    @48 We have guidelines for posting that reflect the norm for Internet forums. As part of this project we’ll also revisit the guidelines — to make sure they’re consistent with current standards, and to simplify them where possible.

    Also, thanks to all of you who are adding ideas to the wishlist on the forums. 🙂

  51. ryan alucinakis says:

    The system is currently unable to process your request. The request timed out.

    Everyday 7 days a week, 12 hours a day what is this world coming to I cannot spend money! SL is falling apart!

    please can someone help us!

  52. CC says:

    not to thriulled to se known griefers as moderators on SL forums tsk tsk lindens what next i think u need to have peopole with CLEAN records not known griefers

  53. Thanks, Robin.. Forums are not a good means of professional support. However, they are very useful for sharing tips and tricks, scripting ideas and other information that are not easily illustrated in chat.

    The vBulletin update is a long time coming and will go a long way to make sharing that information possible. I am very happy to hear this.

  54. nika talaj says:

    Thank you Robin, for the honorable mention 🙂 and also for the time and attention you’re giving to the forums. That attention is a testimony to the respect LL holds for those who volunteer their time and energy to help other residents.

    And, welcome Katt! Personally,I welcome our new Linden overlords, both yourself and the Linden moderators to come. It is terrific to see someone being given responsibility for the forums!

    @36, Montana: You don’t have to be a Premium account to use the forums, just have payment info on file. And yes, i agree, it would be great if ALL residents could read the forums. And I think it wise that only those with payment info be allowed to post.

    Again, more discussion can be found on Robin’s thread:
    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=250134

  55. CC says:

    FAILED MONEY TRANSACTIONS AGAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! PLEASSE FIX THIS FIX FIX NOT JUST BANDAID IT PLEASE FIX IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  56. CC says:

    geezus i swear 3 solid weeks every damn day stale money transactions WHY CAN YOU NOT FIX THIS PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

  57. Tater Todd says:

    Thanks for keeping the forums around, I’ve found them very, very helpful — especially the forums for content creators. Its much easier to find information there than in-world (in my opinion), or searching through all the various resident run sites… many of which are really good, but, I think it helps to have a “home base” for folks to refer to first.

  58. Captain Noarlunga says:

    How about instead of not allowing comments on these blogs…there is a link to a forum where people can let off steam about their frustrations at the game owners ability to fix long-standing defects: a game that is earning the owners millions of dollars a week?

  59. maelstrom janus says:

    let’s hope we see an end to cliques dominated by ‘forum cartels’ and their game of deciding which threads and which forum users to sabotage….

  60. Winter Ventura says:

    “Also, thanks to all of you who are adding ideas to the wishlist on the forums.”

    Added my requests.. pretty basic ones that I’m seeing again and again.

    People, if you have ever *WISHED* that they would “fix” something about the forums.. now is the time, and this is your ONE CHANCE to post in a thread that you KNOW will be read.

    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=250134

  61. Once again the TG is left out in the cold. Thanks a lot, jerks.

  62. Please allow basic accounts to at least VIEW the forums.

    Too often, I’ve been directed to the forums but cant view them at all.

    JetZep Zabelin
    Second Life Mentor

  63. KMeist Hax says:

    How about making it so that I don’t have to spend 10bux just to read the forum? This isn’t Something Awful.

  64. elissa bristol says:

    Maybe, the Lindens should provide, as a service to a premium account, the ability too, within the site, create a blog of their own, that way, that little WEB ADDRESS bar in-world would not remain empty for most residents, plus, individual players could post information, help topics, etc, on the blog, while also, other residents could gush and gasp about their in-world experiences.

  65. The Biting Beast says:

    @62

    How about getting a premium account?
    All those “basic accounts” benefit meanwhile of too much services in my
    opinion.

    I highly recommend a Topic just for mentors – when I’m looking at the
    general In World Mentor chat I have to shake my head too often recently.
    How is it possible that peeps who have no idea become a mentor.
    Noone is being helped with a mentor who doesn’t even know where to find
    the “official” Blog nor knowing about premium accounts.
    A mentor should be professional not a poor chap who doesn’t even follow
    the chat guidelines.

    A mentor should be a professional – not just a geek who wants to show off
    the “Mentor Tag” in clubs or public places.

    Dear Lindens – please set up a new system about mentors.
    SecondLife ™ is a steadily growing place with lots of questions which
    should be answered by professionals and not by someone guessing the right
    answer actually.

    I’m sorry that I had to get rid of that but it’s sad to see what all those
    wannabe mentors cause lately.
    (They don’t even follow the general chat guidelines… go figure)

    Peace on Earth and Secondlife ™

  66. Toy LaFollette says:

    quoting Robin… “A couple of things to note…

    – the plan is to revitalize, not close the forums
    – we agree that the list of reasons to close is weak, and that’s why we’re looking at revitalizing them
    – I want to thank the people who volunteered, although I plan to move ahead with Linden moderators”

    correct me if Im wrong but isnt that almost word for word what was told a group of Live Helpers, just prior to closing it?

  67. Jannae Karas says:

    Oh no. I need the classified’s for day to day existence. taking them away will kill the land rental and sales markets. i think it will also cripple the ability of designers to reach their customers.

    As to tech and resident answers, it would not be needed if LL had a system of support that actually functioned. And if they did, it would surely be swamped by the sheer volume of minor and major problems that are dealt with through the forums.

    and if you leave the forums alone, I promise that I will try to be nicer : )

  68. Ann Otoole says:

    @50 – Well said Robin. I’ll change my opinion to reflect a comment that this looks like a commitment to greater diversity in forum management.

  69. Cybin Monde says:

    First of all.. i just wanted to say i had a blast being a Resident Moderator and can’t believe i have to remove that from my forum title soonly. i apologize to everyone for not having been able to be an active ResMod since last year sometime, i guess getting a RL job can do that. lol..

    Robin, i look forward to the coming revamps/changes. i love the sound of integrating the blog with the forums, it sounds closer to City of Heroes.. which is a great example of fairly well structured/moderated forums.

    /bow

  70. Ann Launay says:

    @59

    The purported ‘clique’ members also happen to be the people who answer the majority of questions in Resident Answers. We need a general forum to get the silliness out of RA, yes, but demonizing the Residents who are most apt to offer assistance is NOT the way to revitalize the forums.

  71. Joker Opus says:

    Super!
    I’m glad that you guys are focusing on the forums.

  72. Qie says:

    Several responses here have said that it’s necessary to be a paying, “Premium” member to post in the Forums, but that’s not true. All that is required currently is that the account have Payment Info On File–*not* that the account is premium. There is very widespread support for making the Forums at least readable by accounts with No Payment Info On File in future, but nobody should think they need a paying account to be able to both read and post there right now. (Sorry for more than one response, but this seems to be a source of confusion that could keep folks from using the Forums link in the announcement.)

  73. Adz Childs says:

    This is great news!
    …and i’m happy to see my name on the list of volunteers.
    *salutes* Reporting for duty!

  74. Sam Moon says:

    I see a LOT of griefer types on that list. People who stir trouble and report after you physically or verbally retaliate. I can name them specifically if you like (6 that i see and know well).

    Some people want to be a Linden bad, but cannot afford the minimum wage they make.

  75. Jacskson Fiver says:

    I agree Sam. Many want to be a Linden for the lack of power they have in RL. Mentors can be the same way. They think they are cops, not people sent out into the land to offer friendly help and advice. I was a mentor for a while, and got sick of the nonsense chatter on the group… more or less cop chatter, donut and griefer sitings. All they can do is fill out an AR just like anyone else. They have no special ties to LL that will ‘bump’ their report.

    I say less official abuse in the way of the very failed mentor program, and more fixing of a dead or dying grid. Resources must be pumped into the repair of the long standing patches and band aids that have been slapped on it during pizza runs late night (yes, i know a few Linden RL).

    And as for Sam’s comment of underaying employees, I think this is a factor as well. Not a snarky statement that should be ignored. You get what you pay for in this man’s army. GIGO and all that rot.

    New owner? You mean new president? Yea, you have a mighty row to hoe before selling SL for the big bucks.

  76. Todd Ahoga says:

    Wow, well said Jackson! You are my new hero.

  77. Felix Oxide says:

    I really hope that anyone who is not nice on the forums start getting an instant smackdown. They have no place in the forums and should have their forum privelages immediatly revoked. Also all worthless posts in resident answers should recieve the same treatment. Time to stop these people from soiling a forum that is supposed to be helping, but is instead used as a playground for people who are obviously bored with secondlife.

  78. @ Robin: Don’t bother with #48, she is a complainer from way back. Welcome aboard. I have my own set of difficulties in life, and we will all get thgrough them.

    I concur with underpayed employees!

  79. Adz Childs says:

    oh i get it… @50 thanks for the clarification . I’m still interested in volunteering if you change your mind.

  80. Guy Goodman says:

    I think you had it right with all the reasons put out to kill the forums. There’s only way to get worse than forums and that would be with an email list. Forums and Mailing lists are homes to trolls and little more. Can they be helpful? Sure they can, but so can some things you can find at a garbage dump. The problem is you have to sift through all the garbage to find them and the truth of the matter is what you find is not usually worth it.

    Let the community create its own organizations to help people, when I first came in world that’s what I did. The community wasn’t affiliated with LL at all but was of enormous help to me and was entirely run by volunteers. The community creates its own solutions to these problems, kill the forums and I’m certain it can handle this.

  81. maelstrom janus says:

    @ 70 I dont demonize the likes of Chris Norse…they do it themselves

  82. I demand a recount. Nimrod Yaffle does not deserve to be a volunteer. He should be designated as “Slave for Life”

  83. Kalyrra Heart says:

    According to the Economic Statistics posted on the linden website there are 13,081,599 total residents. Even if everyone had 2 alts (which i highly doubt), that would leave well over 4,000,000 users. Whenever i look at the forums, its the same handful of people, perhaps 30 to 100 participating. Why should these people have such a strong voice in future policy? Most of us can’t be bothered with the forums or we are too busy enjoying SL. To assume the forum posters represent the community is a mistake. Shut down the forums, they are obsolete and take away resources that are needed by the support team.

  84. nimrod yaffle says:

    According to the Economic Statistics posted on the linden website there are 13,081,599 total residents. Even if everyone had 2 alts (which i highly doubt), that would leave well over 4,000,000 users. Whenever i look at the Events List, its the same handful of people, perhaps 30 to 100 participating. Why should these people have such a strong voice in future policy? Most of us can’t be bothered with the Events List or we are too busy enjoying the forums. To assume the Events List posters represent the community is a mistake. Shut down the Events List, they are obsolete and take away resources that are needed by the support team.

  85. I agree with #83, but highly disagree with #84.

  86. nimrod yaffle says:

    I disagree with 85, who agrees with 83 but disagrees with 84, because I agree with 84 but highly disagree with 83 and 85.

  87. Garbage, Kalyrra. Resident Answers is not representative of the vast amount of other helpful aspects of the forums. The content creation forums, classifieds, technical forum and International Area are all helpful areas that are devoid of the tomfoolery found in Resident Answers, and fill a gap that you can’t get from the Lindens – for free. Especially the content creation forums, that teach countless people how to make the wonderful things that fill the space in Second Life. Moreover, the forums are a gateway to other SL communities.

    Killing the forums is an extremely short-sighted and selfish point of view and would hurt the community overall.

  88. And even then Resident Answers still serves a purpose. I don’t know how many times a week we 30 or so answer the same kinds of questions about land ownership, starting businesses, estate management, UI questions, etc. that aren’t clear from the knowledge base. (sorry to multipost but I didn’t want to do RA a complete disservice)

  89. U M says:

    Your joking right?

  90. No, Usagi, because I and many other do take the time to answer land questions. But you’re too busy being Bitter Betty about all the other stuff you don’t notice, do you?

  91. U M says:

    Well Again you have to be joking……And No I have better things to do then conplain…….shakeshead at some of these pointed people. geshhhhh

  92. The Inquisitor says:

    ******
    I disagree with 85, who agrees with 83 but disagrees with 84, because I agree with 84 but highly disagree with 83 and 85.
    ******

    How old are you? I can’t believe what I see here.
    Tell me that this is an aprils fool comment.

    @65 – Mentors? There is just a handful which is really good.
    The rest are lil Rambos and John Waynes of SL.
    (Or at least they feel like that)
    These “wannabe” mentors are a pain and a shame for SL…
    I asked lately a mentor how I could split up my parcel in
    two pieces… and I got following answer:

    I don’t deal with land stuff – I’ll get another mentor for you
    … bye bye *poof*

    Woooow – amentor who doesnt even know how to split a parcel?

    Ok… I tried it again….

    Excuse me could you please tell me what the Telehub is good for.

    Mentor: It’s a simple TP for your island – it’s crap – you better use
    my TP… you can buy it at my shop located at………

    If I could I’d add the “Fraggle Theme” here.

    @91 – No U M – they are not joking – not at all… it’s sad… just sad.

  93. U M says:

    In all fairness for the new style mentors. They are not suppose to know everything. But instead reply on a data base of information. The game is just too big for mentors to know everything inthe game today. When the game was smaller even 1 1/2 years ago i say th ementors had problems. But now well its a whole different game.

  94. Gay Flatley says:

    I vote for keeping the forums, but with a major overhaul.

    I would love if moderators would warn posters for bad behavior and give them something like 3-strikes and you’re out.

    The two main issues are off-topic posts and posts that belong in a different category.

    Perhaps, there also could be mentors/volunteers for those new to the forums.

  95. John Horner says:

    If Second Life closes the forums then I will leave Second Life, as the main tool I use to evaluate opinion en-mass would have gone.

    The reasons are really quite simple, to be frank my interest in Sl is financial, that is the evolvement of virtual economies with a virtual currency. A BB (central to and partially run by Linden is more or less necessary to that reason.

    Yes, I accept debate can sometimes descend into “not being very nice to one another” But the likes of Ginko and other so called scams (and the debate on them) balance out the negatives.

    PS, before all you lot ask……..I will leave all my stuff out on land for all to have free of charge, and gain wry amusement at souls divided between their virtual selves, -:) although I will destroy copy write stuff.

  96. Chris Norse says:

    #81 Personal attacks? I am honored.

  97. Katt Linden says:

    Thanks for the welcome, Robin, and to Qie, Nika and the rest of you as well! .
    I started drafting a response to each of you, but I have to admit that it’s gotten too long to post — but really, the bottom line is this: I’m listening, I am reading every comment (both in this thread and at the forum page here. .
    Many of you are saying you do find value in the forums. (I’m a regular reader of the Classified forums myself, so I’m aware of how helpful it is for people to have a free method for sharing info on new releases.).
    Got opinions or a wish list about forums? Go post it! and thanks! .

    — Katt

  98. Marianne McCann says:

    I look forward to the changes, and am glad to see some attention paid to the forums. I also applaud Nika and Qie for pushing on this.

  99. pantaiputih korobase says:

    i look forward to be able to login again 🙂

  100. I like #64’s idea

  101. Alicia Sautereau says:

    with some of those names up there, you might aswell close the forums and just be done with it, trollers modding their own forum, this is more funny then the continious service failures of the past week lmao

  102. Alicia Sautereau says:

    #70 Ann Launay

    and those are the same people who can`t even stick to the current rules and those are up for moderation? LOL

  103. foe says:

    Yah! for the A-List and the B-List an those of us on the See-List …

  104. Rex Cronon says:

    Why does anybody need to have payment info on file(PIOF) in order to have access to the forums? Is there a logical explanation?
    Right now, you can’t even read the forums if you don’t have PIOF. Isn’t that strange? Is the CIA, FBI or other agencies posting top secret documents there?
    There are people that could make contributions to the forums if they were allowed to post there. Not having PIOF doesn’t mean that person isn’t knowledgeable in different aspect of SL. I wonder how many of those with PIOF know everything about SL?
    I think there are more reasons why reading/posting to the forums should be allowed to everybody regardless of their PIOF status. So, if u support this please let the lindens know. Who knows maybe they will listen.

  105. Bradley Bracken says:

    Sorry for a double post, but….

    A reminder to all to read #50 from Robin. She says that the forum is going to be moderated by Lindens, not the volunteers listed.

    The list is there as a thank you.

    No need to worry, for now, about some of the individuals that are on that list becoming mods.

  106. Felix Katt says:

    For a site that cannot maintain what its supposed to do, they shouldn;t consider anything else, such as blogs, or voice, or H4 or ANYTHING until they fix the issues at hand. New president: step in the right direction. Old president as CEO: negates prior statement.

  107. U M says:

    shakeshead……..some things just don`t chance when picking people do they?

  108. Scalar Tardis says:

    All the forums really need is a fix to the broken PHP code tags. Do that and it will revitalize the forums far beyond any other change.

    The greatest educational resources on the forum are the scripting library and scripting tips. It is not possible to discuss scripting with a large audience within Second Life, and a wiki is not really appropriate for threaded discussion, so for this one purpose the forums excel.

    While I was recently asking in SL-Dev about a scripting mailing list as an alternative to the forums, a unformatted-text-only mailing list cannot highlight code and make it more readable like PHP can.

    (The Linden Answers section should probably be archived and removed completely since LL has moved to the blog, mailing lists like sl-dev, and inworld office hours for employee-to-user contact.)

  109. U M says:

    “- people should interact in Second Life rather than on the website”

    I understand inthe old days the forums have a purpose but now the game should be the forcus not the forum CLOSE THEM DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  110. Shayla Greene says:

    Just remember, Lindens. Drama is as drama does. This will be an interesting experiment!

  111. Usagi, you can stay inworld all you like. I will happily take the building tips, classifieds, etc. from the folks posting on the forums. kthxbye.

  112. Tiuri Thiebaud says:

    From your post it’s not completely clear to me what you’re gonna do with the new volunteers. If anything. If you do, I would suggest you check first if their suitable for the function. Bobbyb30 Zohari for one, was a notorious troll at the SleX forums. I think he was banned there about a year ago. Just so you know.

  113. Bradley Bracken says:

    Robin, would you consider taking the names of the volunteers off the blog? It’s still confusing people into thinking they will be the new resmods. Perhaps you can move the thank you’s to the forum thread for ideas.

  114. Qie says:

    @108 Scalar: Somebody seriously proposed a *mailing-list* to replace the Scripting Tips forum? Even ignoring the slow motion train-wreck that is SL-Dev, that would represent a huge leap backwards in technology, functionality, timeliness, and community. I’m sure folks desperate enough would learn answers to their scripting questions by exchanging samizdat carbon copies by carrier pigeon, too, but to eschew a proven and obviously superior tool seems like simple superstition.

  115. U M says:

    laughs………you think 1000`s of people are confused?
    “Katt Linden” seems to tbe the leader now which is good but that list you see is just a supporting group just like the last one.

    read this they are going to monitor the forums……..

    “In the meantime, many thanks go to the Residents who have helped with moderation in the past, as well as to those who volunteered to help with moderation in the future. Volunteers are very important to us, and we appreciate their willingness to pitch in to make Second Life better for us all.”

    “as well as to those who volunteered to help with moderation in the future.”
    this tells us they will be the same as the ones they are replacing…….

  116. Hmmm, is Katt Linden any relation to Katt Kongo?

  117. TC says:

    that’s unbelievable, you broke it again, will you manage to do that everyday from now on like you did the last two weeks? you have to find ways to refund people who are losing real money and you have to PULL YOURSELVES TOGETHER!!!

  118. “Abattoir” 🙂

  119. Shadowquine says:

    Scripting forums are very helpful. Terrible idea to tear those down.

    It’s good to see effort going into communication.

    Kudos to you, Katt. Good luck.

  120. Ricardo Harris says:

    Good. Don’t give the forums to none of these people. Keep it the way it is. Although by not doing it Linden is crushing some dreams. Almost like telling a kid he’s not going to Disney Land.

  121. Ambergris says:

    Please bring back the forum code.
    Please?

    The rest of the forums should be just left alone.
    People realize by now that there is not enough staff/interest in monitoring the forums
    You took away linden answers remember?

    Just fix the forum code and then move on to your next thing on you list

  122. selofulse says:

    Hello. It is test.

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