584 Havok™4 Early Adopter regions updated with 8 fixes (2008-03-28) – RC3 of the new Second Life Simulator

Quick Status

The Havok™4-based Second Life simulator v1.19.3.83583 has been deployed to the Early Adopter beta regions on Second Life. This is the same version that was deployed to the Beta Preview yesterday, with the addition of a fix to handle certain simulator startup cases that can keep a simulator from starting successfully.

What Has Changed In This Version?

Changes in this build include (SVC items were submitted on the public jira issue tracker / DEV items are internally discovered issues).
SVC-1923: Mass calculations on small path-cut, hollowed and dimpled prims adjusted to be much closer to the masses calculated on the current release simulator. Masses on these small complex objects may not be exactly the same, since we now account for scale when calculating minimum size prims, and a few other variables, but it will be much closer)
SVC-1856: Unassisted flight at high altitudes is now possible with reduced fall rates. The fall rate is not quite as low as the current release simulator, but is now much closer.
DEV-12601: Floating object no longer falls (this was a secondary effect of issues like
SVC-1923 – mass calcuations not correct for twisted shapes)
DEV-12637: Kart no longer sometimes spins on it’s top after crossing region boundary
SVC-1792: llSetBouyancy = 1.0 now handled correctly (another fix for avatars not holding altitude correctly with a HUD attachment)
SVC-1520: Reduced the amount of “float” between avatar feet and floor
DEV-12320: llGetBoundingBox now includes the object the avatar is sitting on
SVC-1473: Hollowed and path-cut prims now align better when using copy selected
DEV-12585: Relaxed 256m megaprim size limitation based on continuing discussions and analysis.

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Program Manager

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52 Responses to 584 Havok™4 Early Adopter regions updated with 8 fixes (2008-03-28) – RC3 of the new Second Life Simulator

  1. Darien Caldwell says:

    hmm, the releases are getting faster and faster. 🙂 That’s a good sign. Go Team H4! 🙂

  2. I wonder if you’re interested in getting some extra Not-So-Early-Adopters 🙂 If so, can you place a short notice on where to subscribe to it? I’ve tried out several of the Havok™4 sims and I’m definitely very very happy with the results.

  3. Thanks SW!!! Anything more we can do on our end hon..let us know.

  4. Peter Lameth says:

    Gwyn i dont think their accepting anymore people but u can try theirs nothing to lose, u need to goto support and you’ll find it in Land and Region Issues -> Region Change -> Havok4 Early Adopter Program

  5. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    Hi Gwyneth, i think the gridwide deployment is so just around the corner that you’ll be more than “not so early.. adopter”… but something like: “a day before adopter”. 😛
    For the rest, probably (as expected) H4 is one of the biggest improvement to the grid from an year or so, it introduces much more stability to the server than anything else in a year.
    I were expecting “new possibilities”, and well you have plenty, but the much important point here is that the “things” already done, doesn’t stress the server anymore (and i’m trying heavy scripts that would lag/crash a h1 sim within minutes).

  6. Sidewinder Linden says:

    Wow.. this quiet after a deploy… I wonder if that means it’s working well enough to take the next step 😉 /Sidewinder

  7. Daten Thielt says:

    Not to well unfortunatly, seems that setting a landing point and making it so they go there is no longer working, ill submit a jira for it in the monrning

  8. A short while after the deploy I went and took a wander through my havoc4 sim. All looked good, except I was hit by another long ‘molasses-moment’ 😦 The only additional info I have to offer right now is when standing still, the random performance drops tend to be short; when you are walking or otherwise moving, that seems to draw out the duration of the slow moment, up into the 10 – 20 second range. It is only the very, very rare ones that are 30 seconds or over, I think. Nonetheless, it is troubling, I think. At any rate, keep up the great work Sidewinder & the rest of the h4 team!

  9. les says:

    take the step! you’re killing me!

    much love 🙂

  10. Ceejay Writer says:

    Sidewinder! Tis very quiet indeed. For me, it’s just been one long damn week of work-hell. Gonna crawl into SL in a little while and see about having some fun. Hope all your recent fixes stay more stable than my brain is! 😀

  11. Docetti Rozen says:


  12. Buckaroo Mu says:

    I think you guys were so wrapped up in the asset problems you forgot to announce the new RC of the viewer 😛

  13. Sean Heying says:

    Woot, this is a great release candidate….

    The swimmer is still very broken in that the falling animation is played and never stopped, but not enough reason to hold up a release! (the result is quite comical with my falling animation: http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6391/swimmer001qv8.jpg where I float upside down like tied to a fishing line.)

    The molasses issue didn’t happen all day yesterday or today, maybe RC2 has cleaned it up. I will keep watching.

    All my test vehicles work nicely.

    The only gotcha I can see happening when you get to release is the behavior of megaprims when they are resized. I can see some housewives painting their prefab houses accidentally resizing a megaprim can having it snap to 10×10. The old behavior where it jumped back to size was preferable.

  14. U M says:

    wonder! its working great!!!!!!!!!

  15. The problem I demonstrated where vehicles lose the ability to steer after a prim change is still present. I don’t see it in this fix list, so this is just a reminder; not a new bug report. Andrew Linden has a copy of the affected vehicle, as does Sidewinder I think.

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @7 Daten:
    “seems that setting a landing point and making it so they go there is no longer working”

    Do you happen to know if this is also broken in the Havok1-based simulaor? We merged with 1.19.2 just prior to this deploy and have not, as far as I know, touched that part of the code for our physics work. This is just to establish which team should handle resolution of this issue. Thanks, Sidewinder

    P.S. We’ll test both anyway if you’re not sure, but if you have also seen this on a Havok1-based simulator after the 1.19.2 deploy it should go to a different place for resolution.

  17. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    I downloaded the lastest release client yesterday and played today for about 3 hours and experienced four crashes, poor rez time and some lag. Until Linden Labs upgrade the main grid and anything that hasn’t been upgraded for five years, and until you get rid of the bot’s and the bot farms, Sidewinder, you will continue to have problems with the game.

  18. Hmm I spoke too soon – I’m having problems with vehicles… one that used to fly and hover in havoc4 (and havoc1 of course) now can’t get airborne… has something changed with mass or buoyancy?

  19. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Just a note on my last comment ….. bells and whistles are fine and dandy, but all they are is just another paint-job to cover up the gaping cracks in the foundations. fix the foundations (grid, game engine) and you’ll find that more than half of the current problems will disappear. Even if it means shutting down SL for a week – do it. Us regular “old timers” won’t mind.

  20. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @15 Cheshyr: I thought I remembered this being resolved, and It turns out this bug was closed as “won’t resolve” internally, since the issue is based on a code anomaly in Havok1 that has been fixed in Havok4. For more information please see this jira: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1880 “Some vehicles turn very slowly in Havok4”. /Sidewinder

  21. Tarius Auxarmes says:

    I usually dont comment, but I completely agree with Jayme, fixing the core foundation of SL will certainly fix alot of things and it wouldnt hurt bringing more people in.

  22. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @19 Jayme and 21 Tarius: There are other teams working on viewer stability and grid stability. This project addresses another cornerstone of system stability – that of the simulator itself. The simulator is not the whole system, by any means, but it’s instabilities have limited what people can do with Second Life, and this new version has already been shown to noticeably reduce simulator crash rate. It is a piece in the puzzle of overall grid stability and I believe is exactly the kind of work that you are advocating. /Sidewinder

  23. MR Little says:

    @ 17,91 Jayme
    @21 Tarius

    errr… havok 4 IS fixing the core foundation

  24. LegsLover Lusch says:

    Hey’up everyone,

    I just reformatted my puter and downloaded the sl version, and it’s absolutely crap.

    All controlls and interfaces are the old version, half my inventory is missing, graphics are all over the place, I can’t anything and I’m mad as a bee stuck in a fat womans panties,lol.

    Where’s the windlight version, where can I get it?

  25. LegsLover Lusch says:

    that was can’t rez anything,lol

  26. Your Conscience says:

    @7 (Daten)

    Make sure that your estate allows you to set the landing point. Even though you may own land on an estate, if the etate manager has a landing point set, then it will automatically override anything you try to set on your own land. This has been my experience in H4.

  27. Sera Galbraith says:

    LegsLover – you want the Release Candidate. It’s up to 1.19.1 (3) or (4) I think. It’s on the Test Software page and it’s got Windlight.


  28. Sean Heying says:

    The molasses problem, in one of its forms as I see it, is reproducable as SVC-1937.

  29. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Mr Little …. apparently not. Because people are still crashing. If you read my original post in this thread and then Sidewinder’s comment, the grid stability is another thing altogether. Please be sure to read all threads correctly in the future.

  30. Sean Heying says:

    Jayme.. Havok4 will go towards removing alot of crash vector and also towards improving lag and performance in regions once implemented.

    Concrete testing performed by us early adopters has proced this to be one of the most important stability initiatives Linden Lab has taken.

    MT Little is right.

  31. Aminom Marvin says:

    Jayme Llewellyn: please speak to yourself. Trying to speak for a group of people (such as old timers) is an attempt to inflate one’s argument.

    I myself DO mind if SL was taken offline for a week. It would break me financially as I make a living off of SL and pay the rent with it. There are many other people in such situations as well.

    Also, what good would taking SL offline for a week do? It wouldn’t shift resources towards coding- liaisons and support people probably don’t know the intricacies of coding SL. They couldn’t test anything, as they wouldn’t have a normal use load to see how stuff runs. There is no rational reason for thinking that a week or a month etc of off-line time would magically fix things- it is just an irrational argument I’ve heard time and time again.

  32. Sean Heying says:

    /me winks at Sidewinder…. you know… now would be a perfect tme to get the client RC team to plug in the patch for builds up to 4096M so that we early adopters can test it before you take Havok live.

  33. Mini Pinion says:

    Still no fix for the slow-walk through holding spacebar being broken in the H4 sims? .. I really can’t believe there’s still only one vote (mine) on the Jira issue (SVC-1786). It really IS a pain positioning yourself properly, without the ability to walk at a slow speed 😦

  34. Elvis Orbit says:

    This is a great update! All working fine hereon my region. I spent 6 hours building a Shinto Shrine on my sim worked great. As well been on all day RC 3 No crashes nothing. Very smooth and stable for me.
    Thanks for this Havok™4 update. It’s getting close!

  35. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @29 Jayne: There are several causes of crashes, and grid stability is not “an entirely different thing” from the work being done in this project. This simulator update reduces one significant cause of crashes – the crashes that happen when a whole region crashes and throws all avatars on the region off at once. Viewer crashes cause individual crashes, where one avatar at a time crashes. Both of these are important areas to resolve and both related to system stability. There are other areas of the system that do not directly cause crashes but can improve reliability and are being addressed.



  36. RTW Blackburn says:

    I agree with Aminom Marvin. I can’t speak for SL specifically but I am involved with scientific software services mostly in cheminformatics. The best place to find stability issues is in the Real World. No test frame they could possibly create to test issues will work as well as it being live users are the best bug finders. The biggest problem however is bug reports. People need to report them in great detail and preferably with a formula or process for reproducing the issue repeatably.

    Something as complex as SL, this may be unrealistic. But good/user beta testers, are a key. LL might consider paying their beta testers a few Lindens as incentives to write better detailed bug reports. Really good beta testers are hard to find.

    Regards, RTW

  37. Sidewinder Linden says:

    I have one report of a hover-script vehicle not behaving correctly (actually because of a bug fix we did – the script it was based on relied on the buggy behavior apparently). Are others seeing issues with any hover vehicles? Thanks, Sidewinder

  38. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Sidewinder: what are you supposed to do to clear llTargetOmega() for physical objects now?

  39. Vic says:

    Where can I get a list of H4 sims? I’d love to get over to one and try it out, or find out if I’m now sitting on one because I’m having a REALLY bad time right now :/

  40. @ Gwyneth Llewelyn

    You put in a support ticket – under Estate – changes – Havok Early Adopter.

    However, I put my request in more than a month a go. I suspect Concierge (they are the ones who handle this) is swamped. So even if you put in the rquest now, it’s likely they won’t get to you in a ‘timely’ fashion and the grid will have moved to it by that time.

    I’ve resigned myself to assuming that’s what will happen for me, though I do hold out a little hope they’ll still get to me before them. 🙂

  41. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Grid’s supposed to be moving to Havok 4 next week, anyway, according to an earlier blog entry.

  42. Captain Noarlunga says:

    Had an old problem back on my Havok4 sim last night…..where someone had deleted a prim and it was invisible but still there. Had to restart the sim to clear the problem. Cant remember if this is an asset server, database or server problem? Havent seen it in almost a year now. ????????? Anyone help to jog my memory on the cause???

  43. Leah Mayo says:

    @38 Sidewinder: my 2007 BOSS motorcycle (by HD Pommeray) slowly sinks when in hover mode in a H4 SIM. Loses 1m altitude in about 2-6 seconds, depending on lag.

  44. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @44 Leah: I had thought we had the hover height problem taken care of – there are some contradictory things that contribute to whether hover works for a particular vehicle. Do your other hover vehicles work? I’m trying to figure out how prevalent this issue is, or whether it’s limited to one vehicle. Thanks, Sidewinder

  45. Wake up in SF please says:

    good lord sidewinder you cant delete legitimate feedback and create a pretend world in SF.

  46. @20 Sidewinder: The bug I described, reported, and gave both you and Andrew copies of, has NOTHING to do with SVC-1880 and you know it. There are no calls to llTargetOmega() anywhere in that source code.

    Physicals simply fails after prim transformations in Havok4. It’s a fatal flaw in your system, and one that needs to be fixed. After yesterday’s rollout it actually became worse. Now the same transformations cause the vehicle to lose lift as well as the ability to steer. I can fly forward, but if I release the forward button, the vehicle crashes rapidly to ground.

    This does not happen in Havok1. It is unique to Havok4, and more particularly to code implemented in the last 4 releases.

    The only reason this does not effect the freebie Elemental craft, is because that vehicle is relatively primitive. It only changes prim scale and texture. No the actual shape.

  47. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @47 Cheshyr: Please don’t assume malintent… I was reading the internal developer contents on that fix, and that is the information I had at hand. If it was misunderstood I will make sure that it gets looked at again. All you have to say is “I think you missed the real issue”, ok? I may have also grabbed the wrong internal bug to review for this, and if that’s so, my apologies. When I’m back a bit later tonight I will go back and check the specifics. Regards, Sidewinder

  48. Leah Mayo says:

    @45 Sidewinder: the only hover vehicle i have besides of the motorcycle is the Azure Hoverpad v2.8 by Azurescens Herouin. That one works fine. As for the 2007 BOSS bike, i don’t mind that it sinks slowly when hovering (bikes aren’t made for hovering, that’s just a nice feature to get back on the road in case 🙂 ). I’ve reported it only because it might help your team to find more important issues. Keep up the good job!

  49. LS says:

    First I’d like to say that the jira is overblown, unorganized as hell and when you search for issues you get hundreds of them so how does a person know how to file a report on there , since you’ve now taken out bug reporting altogether in world.

    Since this blog post was made on friday, life has been hell on our sim. Lagged to death when normally running smoothly, camming is glitchy is causes viewer crashes in both the release candidate and the regular viewer. Walking is haphazard. Notecards won’t open. Scripts won’t reset. Items take 10 tries to get them to rez . The sim crashed three times saturday with approx. 10 people on it. All in all, whatever you are ‘implementing’ has caused a severe downfall of service in our area.

  50. “DEV-12585: Relaxed 256m megaprim size limitation based on continuing discussions and analysis.”

    What does this mean?


  51. Ealena Iwish says:

    I’m still crashing… now it’s worst… i just log in and I appear already freezed and not rezzed…. what is going on…………..

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