Havok4 Beta Preview Update with 10 fixes (2008-03-21) – RC2 of the new Second Life Simulator

Quick Status

The Havok4-based Second Life simulator v1.19.3.82980 has been deployed to the Beta Preview. This version integrates some updates from the release-version simulator on Second Life, and another round of bug fixes.

What Has Changed In This Version?

Changes in this build include (SVC items were submitted on the public jira issue tracker / DEV items are internally discovered issues / there are a few in this list that were fixed without jira tracking #’s…).

DEV-11984: Large spheres no longer get stuck to other objects when dragged over them

DEV-12031: Re-introduced llSetForce() Havok1 simulator energy level reset bug (that we had fixed) to avoid breaking legacy content

DEV-12137: Worn scripted object now gets ground collision event when avatar lands

SVC-1261: Avatar slides no longer slowly down moderate slopes (this fix should handle most slopes, but on very steep slopes avatars may continue to slide in some cases)

SVC-1281: Siggy Romulus Swimmer v1.1 now works

DEV-12231: Repeated calls to set_task_scale() with no changes to the scale value no longer create excessive simulator overhead

SVC-1701 “Non-fix”: Diving Board Deluxe by Siggy Romulus still launches diver too high. This is an example of a product that was carefully tweaked to take advantage of behavior that has changed subtly between Havok1 and Havok4… in a way that we could not readily emulate. This has only happened in a few cases that we know of, but does represent a class of issues that may require vendors to lightly rework products.

SVC-1721: Avatar now enters falling animation state after walking off edge of platform

DEV-12273: Kart now decelerates slowly when forward key is released

DEV-12287: Avatars now do not pop up when hit as readily

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Program Manager

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41 Responses to Havok4 Beta Preview Update with 10 fixes (2008-03-21) – RC2 of the new Second Life Simulator

  1. Darien Caldwell says:

    Nice fixes, can’t wait to see them move to the Early Adopter regions. 🙂

  2. o.h. says:

    hm, slowly getting there it seems.

  3. I know this has been said before, but Sidewinder, please internally clone the model you are using to communicate with residents on this release. I think the lack of relevant posts here are a contra-indicator. I can bet the dev’s are motivated too. Or maybe they just want to ship 🙂

    Shipping is a feature…
    Alv

  4. Mathieu Basiat says:

    omg ty it works

  5. Mathieu Basiat says:

    mm oh the waves work that i am very happy the rot impulse and other minor stuff still needs a little tweak…

  6. Drew Dwi says:

    Very cool Sidewinder, you can tell Andrew Linden that this release fixed the ground issue magic that was applying to our planes. I’ve not had any problems so far.

    Props for the good work.

  7. Sean Heying says:

    The Slide down hill does seem fixed for small avatars which is great stuff, hills also seem easier to walk up, another great fix.

    The swimmer though is not quite right.

    – Turning it on whilst under water should place you into a tread water instead you stay sunk until you take a step then you struggle at the water surface without ever falling into the tread water position, and therefore can’t swim.

  8. Hewitt Huet says:

    “This post is really about the beta preview of a new version of the Havok4-enabled simulator… Could we please try to keep comments on topic for that? One on-topic post out of nine is a bit light”

    Could it mean, Sidewinder, that the impact of what you’re doing here with H4 isnt as great as you’d thought? Ever stop to think that the average non-scripter doesnt even know what the heck the pysics engine is? Or, if people are talking about web browsers and maps, could it be that it is also a pressing issue?

    And why is “Siggy Romulus”‘s stuff being mentioned in bug fixes? Are you going to include “Hewitt’s Truck”? Or how abaout my airplane – which i not only just lost, i had to relog, and the system wont log me back in unitl 3 minutes from now.

  9. sloopy cooder says:

    @Sidewinder:

    Well, you see, I would love to have a nice on topic post about the new beta… Only one little minor problem. Yet again, I am unable to login in a timely manor (it took 3 mins) and once I am logged in, can’t TP.

    So, could you please send a little bump over to the team responsible for that so we can actually do some testing? Would be very nice…
    Thanks!

  10. Zagro says:

    DEV-12031: Re-introduced llSetForce() Havok1 simulator energy level reset bug (that we had fixed) to avoid breaking legacy content

    Great now i gota come up with somthing els i was writing somthing that used LLSetFroce() working properly.
    how about a LLSetForce4() so we can use it working properly.

  11. Bato Brendel says:

    #1 what does that have to do with Havok 4 being updated
    #5 thru #9 Same thing irrelative.
    #17 if you seriously think that well how about this go rez 2500 physical prims on a normal server and see what happens and then do the same thing on a havok4 one. just for one example…..
    #19 Great idea….. I second that motion if we need to add calls for legacy support why not just use a new lsl name as you suggested for the same thing that would be H4 this way code dont break but we can code using fixed functions.

  12. Is there a website or a help page for the Havoc4 stuff? I just tried to visit the Havoc4 beta wiki page and it was blank. One of my regions was just added to the early adopter program (thank you!) but I need to get caught up on what needs testing, what is known to broken and is being worked on, etc. Thanks!

  13. Andromeda Quonset says:

    It might be useful if LSL had a function call that could retrieve simulator information. My first idea on this was a call that would return something that would indicate if the sim was running Havok1 vs Havok4, and then the script could have workarounds for some of these differences. Of course, the idea is to have Havok4 deployed all across the main grid, making such a function obsolete. So, it might be useful to return other information about the sim, such as version and build, as well as which physics engine. I notice on the main grid that some island clusters that run Havok1 seem to run different builds of the sim, so scripters might still like some way of telling which environment the script is running in.

  14. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Sidewinder, Zagro, what’s “DEV-12031: Re-introduced llSetForce() Havok1 simulator energy level reset bug (that we had fixed) to avoid breaking legacy content”?

  15. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @7 Sean: Could you send me a notecard with the specific step-by-step cases that are not working? Thanks, Sidewinder

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @8 Hewitt:

    “Could it mean, Sidewinder, that the impact of what you’re doing here with H4 isnt as great as you’d thought? Ever stop to think that the average non-scripter doesnt even know what the heck the pysics engine is? Or, if people are talking about web browsers and maps, could it be that it is also a pressing issue?”

    I and the Havok4 team realize quite well that we are working on one part of a large system. The physics engine guides the calculation of gravity, movement and collisions, as well as linkage while building and which objects are physical (should have physical behavior) and which should not – and thus affects much of what everyone does in Second Life. One of the benefits of this project will be a significant reduction in the rate that regions crash due to physics problems – which is the leading cause of region crashes on the current simulator.

    Yes, there are many other pressing issues, and if you are having problems with other areas, the best way to get those resolved is either through responding to blog posts from teams working on those other areas or to submit help tickets. By clogging posts such as this one with off-topic comments, you make it harder for the people who are directly involved with this work to follow the discussion and to help get this work completed.

    “And why is “Siggy Romulus”’s stuff being mentioned in bug fixes? Are you going to include “Hewitt’s Truck”? Or how abaout my airplane – which i not only just lost, i had to relog, and the system wont log me back in unitl 3 minutes from now.”

    Siggy Romulus is a product vendor, and the reason his stuff is being mentioned in bug fixes is that the physics engine update made some of it not work correctly. We are actively working to try to ensure that existing products do not have problems wiorking with the new physics engine and a number of people have, throughout the beta, been helping us to see which products used in-world may have experienced side effects of the update that we can resolve.

    Is “Hewitt’s truck” not behaving correctly on Havok4 regions? If so, please feel free to let me know, and submit a jira bug report so that we know what needs to be fixed.

    Inventory loss is not within our project, and if you have lost inventory there are both wiki pages explaining how some losses can be recovered, or you can send in a help ticket – some inventory losses are recoverable and others are not.

    The login problems are known, and are being worked on by another team.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

    P.S. To reduce clutter I have removed a number of off-topic posts above and referred the issues internally.

  17. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @9 Sloopy: My understanding is that there are developers working on the login problems actively… Sorry for the inconvenience and they are attempting to get it resolved as quickly as possible. /Sidewinder

  18. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @10 Zagro: I will talk to the team about adding a new LSL function for “correct llSetForce() – good idea! We were not very happy about having to take out a fix to support existing products, especially one that causes a misbehavior from a “correct physics” perspective. I expect that we would not be able to introduce a new LSL function with this release in the immediate term, but I will see what sort of timetable it might be possible for and get back to you directly.

    Thanks,

    Sidewinder

  19. Sidewinder Linden says:

    On the concept of getting simulator information in LSL scripts…

    LSL calls to enable query of simulator characteristics were discussed in internal team meetings about a month ago, and in in-world office hours. The conclusion we reached was that we could not get them implemented in time for product vendors to have them distributed in enough time that they would be useful for this project. In other words, for this to really have value, the functions would have to be designed and implemented, put in use, and the product vendors would have to have enough time to get a new round of product updates out – all of which seemed like a much longer timeframe than was available.

    With that said, we do recognize that being able to query for simulator information may be more important in the future and want to make sure it’s a good design, rather than something just thrown together. If you have design ideas for how such a function should work, please feel free to send me a notecard in-world.

    /Sidewinder

  20. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @12 Atashi: Here is the link to the Havok4 project wiki:
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok4

    The in-world office hours schedule is posted here:
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok4/Office_Hours

    A “reasonably current” list of regions on the beta preview grid are here:
    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok4/Beta_Preview_Regions

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  21. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @14 Argent: Here are the specifics:
    “Fixed with code change 82555: Re-introduced a H1 bug where consuming energy with a zero length vector would re-set the energy level to the max. Also fixed up parameter calculations for consuming energy in LLConstantForceAndTorqueActionDescriptor::apply(). ”

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  22. Hewitt Huet says:

    Sidewinder, that’s the most replies Ive seen by one Linden. Commendable, very commendable.

    Sorry if my post was too far off track – but I’m not the only one concerned that more time may be spent on issues that are not as critical as getting the grid to function acceptably. I know it’s a big job… and with all the flaws I still like SL a lot.

    But I’ll say this: I do script, and I have tried H4 and know youre working on it and it cant be easy upgrading three versions. And if the other Lindens replied like you did, we’ll be in better shape and there’ll be less bitching. Good luck with the code!

    HH

  23. Captain Noarlunga says:

    Sidewinder @16:

    Pity none of the other blog posts are open for comment lately …..take a look. You are the only person who responds regularly on a blog. People are understandably getting very upset because the other problems are never open to comment and they are sick of being treated like mushrooms.

  24. les says:

    Good stuff Sidewinder. Not easy making everyone happy.

    You’ve done a good job listening to people with issues and addressing them as best you can.

    You’ve been asking for bug reports, holding open meetings twice weekly, and answering direct blog bug reports. You will still get, “my X product doesnt work!” due to the unlimited ways of script call interaction. People have had months to get with the program.

    Havok1 sucks for so many reasons. Crash crash crash, being the first. Havok 4 has issues…far less then havok1. It’s a much better foundation and i would gladly accept RC2 as a grid deploy knowing that the team will still be active on it.

    My biggest issue (besides waiting forever for a couple of sims to convert) is the unsitting of avatars from vehicles very often sends the av to about 100m up, or in some cases under the track/road. This is more pronounced if the vehicle is moving. In fact, moving vehicles make it pretty much a sure thing. In havok1 sims an av ejected from a moving vehicle behaves like they just stepped off and move at the same speed and direction.

    This is not a good thing for my racing leagues, but I wouldn’t let it hold you back. I plan on testing it out to see if there is a way to help it along via LSL.

    Here’s hoping there are no showstoppers so we can get on with things. 🙂

    Ready when you are!

    For the record….the network team gets no cookies and please continue to delete BS posts.

  25. AnnaLatexa Beaumont says:

    well, think there is no relation to this, but could you may try to fix VWR-4570 and the “friends online” page, please? both doesn’ work for weeks now and I think, this is a major point, because our friends ARE the reason to go in-world. Thank you and

    Happy Easter

    Anna

  26. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Sidewinder@21: Ah, so in H1 if you turn off llSetForce() your energy gets refreshed? I can see how existing content could be depending on that feature inadvertently. Heck, I could be depending on it, I don’t know how much energy my Flight Feather really needs, and I turn force on and off.

  27. carlos silva says:

    ostava de esprimentar esta nova versão pois tenho uma muto atiga

  28. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @24 Les: Yes the “launch on stand up” is an odd one. It depends on a lot of geometry and situation things, and is more pronounced with some vehicles and situations than others. We’ve continued to tinker with that, although I wouldn’t want to promise dramatic improvement in the short term. Some of the issues are intertwined with other behaviors, and it’s tricky to change this without affecting other things… I guess the short answer is “yup – known – not forgotten – not quite sure what we’re going to do for the next step on that issue yet”. /Sidewinder

  29. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @25 AnnaLatexa: The Friends Online issue has been noted (and I put in another bug report on this yesterday and talked to the team that handles that area yesterday. I can’t provide specifics on when it will be resolved, but the issue is known. When you see issues, the best thing to do is to put in an issue in the help ticket system so that folks are aware of when problems are happening. /Sidewinder

  30. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @26 Argent: The llSetForce() issue is somewhat different than that and is not affected by a simple on/off if I understand correctly. You could probably get the best clarification at one of the next office hours or we can arrange to talk inworld.

    Thanks,

    Sidewinder

  31. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @24 Les: If you have a chance to drop by office hours, the development team might have some thoughts on ways you could tweak some vehicle construction or scripting things to reduce the effect. /Sidewinder

  32. Ann Otoole says:

    sorry for the off topic but i want to thank whoever fixed the null in the region column in transactions history export to excel.

  33. AnnaLatexa Beaumont says:

    Thank you, Sidewinder 🙂 Wish you HAPPY EASTER!!!

    xxx Anna

  34. elissa bristol says:

    I appreciate his work. However, I still do not understand why Lindens pick specific “people” to fix problems for. Is it because they bring you more moneyas a vendor, or is this game still supposed to be about community, meeting people, and having fun. Or are you guys moving away from that model to a more commercial aspect? Off topic? I am more than satisfied with my gaming experience, but it shouldn’t be modeled after “capitalism,” which is irreverently broken.

    Sidewinder is right, the average player doesn’t know what a psyhics engine is…nor cares. I appreciate the hard work that is going on but picking out certain residents to get “fixes” for should be agaisnt SL policy.

  35. ladyconn says:

    hola hablo español quie habla

  36. HD says:

    @34 elissa: I’m not sure what you don’t get about “beta” testing… LL is not going in and fixing individual products. They are fixing bugs in the Havok 4 physics engine that are found by the individuals who test their products in the beta grid. That’s the whole idea of beta testing. Not only does this ensure that the content creators have the opportunity to make sure their products will work in the new environment, but by fixing those bugs found in their products, the bugs are also fixed in other similar products using the same type of script calls. I for one have seen several H4 bugs in my own products resolved from LL fixing another person’s issue. Press on H4 Team… you’re doing an awesome job here! And Thanks!

  37. Cee Ell says:

    @34 — ‘modeled after “capitalism,” which is _irreverently_ broken’ … omg, that’s priceless.

    BTW, they’re not ‘fixing’ problems for specific people, per your complaint. They’re addressing specific incompatibilities between the new physics system and _existing_ scripted objects in Second Life. Lots of people already own these objects, and those people expect their stuff to continue to work in the future. The “people” you are complaining about are the designers of those objects: the names are merely a shorthand to identify which ones are being discussed, or in some cases, the designers are working to help the Lindens identify the incompatibilities. (Or in some cases, just bitching, but at least it brings the problems to the team’s attention 😉

  38. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @34 Elissa:

    The Havok4 team does not “pick specific “people” to fix problems for”, in any fashion. This appears to be an assumption based on the fact that we list specific products and names in certain bug fixes. That assumption is not based on how the process works.

    We have openly solicited residents for six months to report things that do not work on Havok4 simulators that used to work on Havok1 simulators, and have been working down the list of issues to minimize incompatibilities found. This is not preferential treatment.

    The bug reports you see indicate the specific product (which is made by a specific person) that showed a a particular problem – since a clean bug report will state the item that displayed bad behavior, and how to reproduce the bad behavior. When we resolve the issue, we can’t know that we have fixed “all products like that one”, but we can state that for that particular product the issue seems to be resolved.

    Best regards,

    Sidewinder

  39. LegsLover Lusch says:

    Hey’up peoples,

    When something is bad I say it’s bad, when it’s good it’s congratulated.

    I’ve recently downloaded the latest 1.19.0.5 version I think it is and; I have to congratulate LL for the brighter more detailed graphics, life like ocean water, and the floating cloads, windlight I think, it makes for a better experience however, I have a question.

    The ocean water flows right to left but the waves on my beach come up onto the beach,lol, looks a bit odd that’s all.

    Down side is, rezzing is still slow very slow, had bacon, eggs and 3 coffees this morning while waiting for SL to rezz,lol. Slight EGGageration but it is still very slow and frustrating.

    You are dragging power from rezzing and it’s going somewhere else, I think the majority would like to see instant rezzing back.

    Cheers……….Legs.

  40. Shaylynn Shepherd says:

    tyty – i see vast improvement – makes my SL alot easier!!

  41. trinity says:

    @42
    Space…

    SL ™ is nothing but fake illusions….
    You know ?
    This life you are leaving there… it IS illusions…

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