Havok Early Adopter and Beta Preview Refresh with 6 Fixes (2008-02-21)

UPDATE 2008-02-22 12:11pm PST: Well… we thought we had the “can’t land on some prim surfaces” problem resolved by backing out some recent changes. Unfortunately testing showed that this misbehavior still exists. We will have to do some more detailed research to locate the cause of this problem.

When we have a working fix, we will deploy the new version the Beta Preview for a day of community testing, and then afterwards re-deploy to the Early Adopter regions on Second Life. I hope that we can find a solution that will let us do a deploy by mid-week next week, but cannot be sure until we isolate the cause of the problem.

UPDATE 2008-02-21 6:44pm PST: Due to a problem found in the first hour of use in which avatars could not exit flying mode when trying to land on some surfaces, we have reverted the Early Adopter regions and the Beta Preview to the previous version. We will locate the source of this issue, and re-deploy with an updated version as soon as possible. /Sidewinder

Quick StatusThe Beta Preview and 515 Early Adopter regions have been updated to Havok4 Beta Server v1.19.0.80183. Yes, we have over 500 Havok4 Early Adopters (almost 3% of Second Life regions)!

This version resolves another set of key issues, and includes a performance optimization that we hope will make a noticeable difference for regions that have many avatars present. See the “What Has Changed In This Version” section below for the specific list of changes deployed today.

Over the next week we will be deciding on the final integration schedule for our Havok4-based simulator to become the standard Second Life simulator used across the Second Life Grid. I am sure that this statement will raise some questions – here are a few answers to questions that I have been asked in this area:Q: When the schedule has been decided, will you be providing more information about this update?

A: Yes, there will be a more comprehensive blog post once we have finalized the schedule.

Q: Will you keep fixing physics problems after Havok4 is deployed to the Second Life Grid?

A: Yes. The current Havok4 team will be involved through a transition period, after which bug fixes will be moved into the standard bug resolution process.

Q: If I find a problem now, how should I report it?

A: You should create a jira at http://jira.secondlife.com/ and make sure that it is tagged with Component = “Physics” and Affects Version = “Havok4 Beta”. If it is an issue that you think is absolutely earth-shatteringly critical and must be addressed before we roll out Havok4 to the Second Life Grid as a whole, then mark it as “Critical”. Other bugs will be addressed post-rollout through our normal bug resolution process.

Q: What will the final update process look like?

A: The update to Havok4-based simulators will be a standard rolling restart, that from all outside perspectives looks like “any other simulator update” that we have done recently.

Q: But I haven’t tested my stuff on Havok4 – what should I do?

A: You should test your products on the current Havok4 build. To do this, you can download the Havok4 beta viewer from the Test Software page. If you are a region owner and would like your region copied to the Beta Preview so that you can test your complete region build on Havok4, please IM me in-world and I can arrange a schedule slot for you to test.

Q: Will the Havok4-based simulator change anything if I am not a builder or scripter?

A: In most cases, the answer to this question is “no”. We have done months of large scale public beta testing to ensure that as much content as possible continues to work correctly. I can guarantee that there will, however, be some things that may not work, or may work differently. We expect that the number of these cases will be low, and if you have any concerns about your items working on Havok4, PLEASE test them now on the Beta Preview or another Havok4-enabled region. (Per previous discussions, we are not publishing a list of Havok4-enabled regions, at the request of the majority of the region owners. The entire Beta Preview is Havok4-enabled, other than the few regions with “Havok1” in their name.)

What Has Changed In This Version?

Changes in this build include (SVC items were submitted on the public jira issue tracker / DEV items are internally discovered issues / there are a few in this list that were fixed without jira tracking #’s…).

Known Issues

(This build has a few known open issues, but we decided that the fixes were too important to hold the release. These issues will be worked on for the next release):

* Personal Hugger (90 sec), LostDog Hugz Sphere and probably other hugger attachments do not align correctly. This will be fixed for the next update, but is not fixed in this release. The symptom you will see is that hugging avatars may not stop at the right distance and be noticeably too close together. NOTE: Non-hug/contact animations such as dance balls and poseballs are unaffected by this problem.

* Sit targets still need work so that sit positions are more similar to Havok1-based simulators* Descending elevators still suffer jerky motion.

* Avatars slide on prim surfaces marked physical

Issue Resolutions

SVC-1541: Rez-at-root now working properly, so that old linkset order rules are recognized. This particular bug prevented vendors on one region from delivering specific products.

SVC-1089: Avatar inertia no longer ends abruptly while jumping (continued tuning of this bug)SVC-“many” :): llTargetOmega now starts, stops and changes speed while a root or child prim of an attachment. After lots of work on this, we believe that TargetOmega finally really really works, actually more completely than it ever did on Second Life. (Now that I’ve said this, I’m sure you’ll find yet another break case, but please be kind… I think Kelly may throw something out the window if this fix isn’t “really completely done”! Just kidding about that, but we do think this resolution is at the finish line as best we can tell.)

SVC-1468: Megaprims set to physical are no longer phantom for the last 1-2m at the edges

DEV-10469: Max speed for llSetVehicleVectorParam(VEHICLE_LINEAR_MOTOR_DIRECTION, <vector>); has been increased from 40 to 256. Now you can get a vehicle to go faster without adding impulses and other tricks. NOTE: We know that this will “break” some older vehicles in that they will go faster on Havok4-based simulators. The clear choice of the beta test group was to enable faster speeds to support better future products in this case.

DEV-10573: Improved performance and FPS of Havok4-based simulators in some high load cases

I want to say a public THANK YOU to Andrew, Kelly and Simon, who are the developers who made this all happen and have tirelessly worked through bugs and issues no matter how complex, and to Dan, our QA lead, who has been relentless (in a good way!) at cross-checking the team’s work and being “brutally honest” about fixes that aren’t really fixed. This is the team that has really made our new Havok4-based simulator happen.

If you happen to see them around, please make sure to thank them for their work.More news soon..

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Program Manager

This entry was posted in -Miscellaneous, Announcements & News, Blog Improvements, Bugs & Fixes, Preview Grid. Bookmark the permalink.

61 Responses to Havok Early Adopter and Beta Preview Refresh with 6 Fixes (2008-02-21)

  1. Sweet. So… when will be the next round for sim owners to request to participate? I didn’t see it in the post – but it’s the end of day and my eyes are tired LOL.
    I’ll read again anyway.

    Thanks! 🙂

  2. “If you are a region owner and would like your region copied to the Beta Preview so that you can test your complete region build on Havok4, please IM me in-world and I can arrange a schedule slot for you to test.” – Spotted it! LOL – woot

  3. Danball Tureaud says:

    Anyone ever hear of spacing your paragraphs?

  4. Neiko Nurmi says:

    Thank you…most if not all of my issues were addressed…

    This has been a smooth and professional “roll out” from a beta test, hats off to the team!

    I had requested to be returned to HAVOC1, canceling that request has I write!

  5. Elvis Orbit says:

    Great Stuff. Glad to see this project coming along so well.
    Elvis

  6. Very Keynes says:

    If it is this close to release, any idea whan we can start testing MONO on Havok4 Beta sims?

    Exciting times lay ahead. If Havok 4 can do for the builders what MONO is doing for us scripters, the combination will be revolutionary.

  7. Charltina Christensen says:

    Thank you for keeping us informed. Very productive and concise information. Have a great day.
    Charltina Christensen
    Queen of Gentle Breeze, Owner of Gentle Breeze
    Wife of Deathstalker Paine, Owner of Gentle Hearts Touch

  8. Kayla Stonecutter says:

    Physical objects are not responding to collisions with avatars, bullets and such just bounce off or pass right through, but they collide fine with objects. When the objects bounce off the avatar, the script does not register the collision.

    http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1647

  9. I’m trying to find out if the C:SI kick physics problem has been resolved, but this is very hard to read. The formatting is terrible 😦

  10. Darien Caldwell says:

    Look forward to trying to break it. :p I am curious though, were any of the performance improvements mentioned aimed at the pending download backups that H4 servers seem to have under high load? Just curious.

  11. Buck says:

    Will there be a time when we can test some random Havok 4 sim with a lot of avatars present? (Any excuse for a party!!) 😀

    515 is less than 3% of all regions? Wow–that’s a LOT of regions.

    @3: Almost all the blog posts are spaced properly, but apparently a return character–eating virus struck just before this one was posted. 😦

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  13. @Buck – Try Java Island II, it’s a Havok 4 sim that regularly has 40 people on it. It’s a pain in the rear sometimes, lol.

  14. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @3 Danball: Yes – something happened with the blogging engine… looks fine in preview – will get that sorted out asap. /Sidewinder

  15. SL Player™ says:

    (VEHICLE_LINEAR_MOTOR_DIRECTION, ); faster!?

    Great speed up the vehicles only to be left flying off into oblivion after crossing into another sim. Will Havok4 remedy this?
    One sim crossing at fast speeds is luck, crossing two sims is a relog 9 times out of 10

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    To all… An issue has been identified with this build that seems to generate problems standing, in particular on megaprim surfaces, but perhaps identified elsewhere. The symptom is that you jump onto a surface, and the avatar cannot exit from “falling animation” and stand. If you see this, the workaround I’ve seen work so far is to fly over to another surface , land there, and then walk back onto the platform. We are evaluating the problem to decide whether or not to leave this build in place or roll back to our previous one. Thanks and my apologies for the inconvenience that this may be causing. /Sidewinder

  17. Kayla Stonecutter says:

    @16 Sidewinder-
    I’ve seen this happen multiple times in Pure Combat (Stonehaven sim), people getting stuck in the falling anim when returning to the safe zone at 350m above ground. We don’t use megaprims and fly is off so people can’t fly to another prim to fix it. Might be related to the bug I mentioned at post number 8, which severely affects combat.

  18. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @15 SL Player: This is the tradeoff in allowing faster vehicle speeds. Choosing very high vehicle speeds can create transition issues. The feeling amongst the builders was that they wanted higher speeds and would rework vehicles to stay under control, rather than having artificially low speed caps… /Sidewinder

  19. Much easier to read, thanks for fixing the formatting! (/me has a headache, so was *very* hard to read, I’m not just complaining for kicks)

  20. Darien Caldwell says:

    Yes, seeing the issue mentioned on #16 on the inside cut surfaces of prims as well….

  21. Darien Caldwell says:

    normal prims I should have said.

  22. Danball Tureaud says:

    #16 Sidewinder

    At first I thought it was my AO HUD, and then I thought it was just a problem with the sim acting up, so I had one of the admins at Northstar restart the sim. Which of course didn’t fix the problem.

    Thanks for telling us about this weird problem. Inform us of what causes it once youf ind out.

  23. Cenji Neutra says:

    Please please fix SVC-1307 before Havok 4 goes mainstream (or I’ll have even more customer help tickets to deal with, ouch). It should be an easy one. Cheers.

  24. Sidewinder Linden says:

    Based on early widespread issues with prim landings (not being able to land on prim surfaces), I have decided to revert the Early Adopter regions and the Beta Preview to our previously deployed version, v1.19.0.79818. We will determine the source of this problem as soon as possible and re-deploy once we have it solved. Thanks for your patience, and my apologies for not catching this through our testing process. Dan did spot a related issue, and I found it very hard to reproduce, and decided to go with it on he assumption that it would be very infrequently seen. In other words this one is “my bad”… We’ll find the root cause and have an update to you as soon as possible. /Sidewinder

  25. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @24 Cenji: I have imported SVC-1307 and we will talk about it. I do not have the history on this function and will need to do some research on why this was changed, if it was on purpose. Thanks for pointing it out. /Sidewinder

  26. Danball Tureaud says:

    #25, the problem is easily reproduceable at Northstar and Northstar Polaris which uses 20×20 mega prims for ground prims. I wasn’t the only one stuck in the falling pose, as well as I would get stuck and couldn’t walk, but I could fly from my spot to another and stand normally on a normal sized prim

  27. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @8 Kayla: I’ve imported SVC-1647 and we will talk about this at the next dev team meeting. /Sidewinder

  28. Argent Stonecutter says:

    My immediate reaction to the change in vehicle performance is the same… you really need to do something like make vehicles do a knights-move jump across multiple sims if there’s been less than 7s or so between sim crossings, or add a new vehicle parameter. Now I think of it, that would be the best, since people will be rewriting the vehicle code anyway… Add something like llSetVehicleVectorParam(VEHICLE_TERMINAL_VELOCITY, float); … new vehicles would set that to 256, old vehicles would default to 40.

  29. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @argent: As we have discussed in office hours, those are interesting feature enhancements that could be done after we complete the Havok4 conversion project, which is not a features project 😉 /Sidewinder

    P.S. The Second Life Grid revert to our previous version is not complete, and the Beta Preview revert is in process. I hope that we can get the landing problem sorted out in the next day or two so that we can have a new build in place early next week.

  30. Jaenus Aeon says:

    Wake up in SF please:

    You have no idea of the degree of complexity of any large software project, much less one that hosts 40,000 people online concurrently regularly.

    Every user’s computer is different, different video cards, different processor hardware, different networking cards. Any one of which could contain an idiosyncrasy that can cause a crash. In addition you have to consider the sheer variety in driver versions and the interplay between drivers on the system. Again, random combination can cause crashes. Next, how reliable is your system memory. Does your video card have shader support or is it emulating it? Memory up to scratch? We haven’t even touched on the software itself here.

    Long story short – Windlight is trying to do more on your system than ever before, and as such, any weakpoints or stressors are going to be exposed. Thousands run windlight every day without problem, but because you can’t it must of course be a bug in the SL client and not anywhere else, right?

    Now, I’ve taken the time to type this reply, but you need to understand another thing to. Linden Labs is divided up into divisions and different development tasks are handled by entirely different groups of people. You wouldn’t complain to your dry cleaners about the fast food being delivered late would you? The people you are talking to here have nothing to do with the windlight project, so all your complaints are doing is upsetting them, making their day worse, and making you look like an ass.

    If you want problems resolved, take them to the appropriate channel.

  31. Jaenus Aeon says:

    good lord @ 38 – take your trolling elsewhere. You just proved that is all you are.

    Side Winder: Keep up the good work, Havok 4 integration has been a long time coming and definitely has been worth the wait.

  32. yuriko nishi says:

    good job again. but i hope you dont rush making h4 standard. its good but there is still some stuff to fix 😉 atm you can bring down sim fps to 25-35 with simple prim animations for example.

    anyway sidewinder, you and your team do a great job. thanks 🙂

  33. FooZe says:

    Hello, i dont know where to writet this, because i see this homepage difficult to find out. but i have been waiting for a registration mail for 2 days now, like my girlfriend :/ we realy wanna get startet on this game, thx

    Benny

  34. les says:

    About the vehicle speed change. This is good!

    Over all physical things are capped at a max speed of 200mps or so. That is slower then current vehicles that use impulse functions to beat the silly 40mps limit. I’ll have to test if this really does go up to 256 🙂

    It will allow much cleaner scripts.

    The most common car script doesn’t even use the vehicle param linear motor. Instead firing off impulse.

    I look forward to being able to script decent gearboxes that do not require twice as much math and functions to beat the crawl of 40mps. I would have settled for 65.

    Now…about the 31 prim limit? I’d melt for 62 🙂

    Well done over all Sidewinder and team. A ray of light for sure.
    Keep rocking!

  35. Gaius Goodliffe says:

    @36: Actually, they increased that prim limt, it’s now 32! Enjoy the extra prim. 😉

  36. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    Prim Docker still (SVC-1488)

    It too might need an import =/

  37. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @38 Cliff: I’ll import 1488, but… for what it’s worth I have Prim.Docker and have been working with it to see where the issues are already 😉 /Sidewinder

  38. Desmond Shang says:

    Wonderful stuff Sidewinder, keep it coming, we’ll keep trying to break stuff!

  39. Porsupah Ree says:

    > Avatars slide on prim surfaces marked physical

    Admit it, you just wanted to have an in-world Slip’n’Slide game. =:)

  40. Sean Heying says:

    Thanks Sidewinder and now we know their names a HUGE thanks with huggles to Andrew, Kelly, Simon and Dan. You guys should all be very proud of the work you are doing.

    Havok 4 is a project that has shown the labs can do things professionally and right. You have worked hard, many times into the night and communications have been fantastic.

    This is one project that I’m not scared of hitting production, despite the little issues as I know that they will be fixed. To see an improvement in FPS and also the end of orbit attacks is worth that little inconvenience as you clean up the loose ends.

  41. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    As it wasn’t possible with the first deploy (too late) but now with this delay, please add http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1542 to the next update and i’ll be happy (at least half happy… i’ll be completely when H4 will be gridwide).

  42. Sidewinder your public responsiveness instills confidence. Please keep up the great … no … outstanding transparency and spread the word. There is nothing better (from a customer perspective) to see this.

  43. Balpien Hammerer says:

    Sidewinder,

    Yes, a few bumps and scrapes, but this has been the best testing and early depolyment program I’ve seen in a long while. Congratualtions to the H4 team.

  44. Raul Crimson says:

    Thanks for the fix! My home is in a HAVOC4 sim, and is hard to land (even to stand up) in a land with inclination.
    Keep the good work H4 team!

  45. Deelicious says:

    Great to see ya guys!!

  46. la le lu says:

    there is still an issue with llRezAtRoot. see SVC-1584.

  47. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    Thanks Sidewinder & sorry about that =/ Lord knows you have better things to do than clean up the mess of those who can’t follow simple freakin instructions o.O

    And I more than second 42, 44 & 45.

  48. Angel Jun says:

    Thank you to the entire H4 team!!!! Your responsiveness and attention to details, even during major issues has been wonderful.

    Special thanks to Sidewinder and Kyle for tkaing the extra time when resolving issues!

  49. Hewitt Huet says:

    Hey Sidewinder: Thanks for your hard work. I’ve tried the Havok4 EA/Beta stuff and it looks promising. I surmise that this update will require a lot of work on the grid, please tread lightly because if physics gets borked on the main grid, no one will be able to move corrrectly!

    Well done to the whole Havok4 team!

  50. Captain Noarlunga says:

    Sidewinder and Team:-

    Well Done……this project has been handled better than anything I have seen on SL since I joined ! Great interactive feedback, a listening and sympathetic attitude. Maybe you can teach the rest of the SL hierarchy how to gain cudos ….then there wont be so many moaning blog posts elsewhere 🙂

  51. Jim Brock says:

    Does the revert have to do with sims not being there on beta grid? Or did something change?

    I was under the impression we used to have an ‘old snapshot’ of the sims, but none of my sims/parcels are accesable. Must say haven’t used beta in a while, so could be I’ve missed an announcement or two…

    Jim.

  52. Kelly Linden says:

    @43 Vittorio: That fix still has to go through QA. The next release we do (hopefully today) should include no new code from this last attempt, only reverted code for the cause of the unable-stand-on-some-prims bug.

  53. Kelly Linden says:

    @53 Jim Brock: The beta Second Life is always a (very small) subset of the main grid. It currently has 61 regions out of Second Life’s 17,000+, and some of those are running havok1 and some mono. If you want to get one or more of your regions rotated onto the Beta for a short period for testing you should contact Sidewinder as described in the blog post.

  54. Kelly Linden says:

    @48 la le lu: That bug should be fixed in the next deployed version. The version in the environment of that report does not have the rez at root fixes.

  55. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @53 Jim: The Beta Preview has been pretty dramatically reconfigured throughout the Havok4 project. We now have a trimmed down set of “core regions” that stay there to represent various types of areas on Second Life, added some more hosts, and this allows for a large number of resident-owned regions to be swapped in and out for testing. If you are a region owner and would like to have a copy of your region(s) placed on the Beta Preview for testing please send me an IM in-world. Even with the expanded space, as Kelly mentioned the beta is far smaller in size than Second Life, so I will still need to get a sense of schedule for how long you would like your regions to be on the preview for testing.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  56. Cristinaa Anatra says:

    Well…since all the changes my lag is awful and freezes…crashes…oh and i have 2 gig of free memory and sigma tel high definition audio

    Cristinaa

  57. Phantom Ninetails says:

    Sidewinder, you are aware that many people cannot get to the beta grid because it uses a really old database snapshot which does not contain newer people, right?

  58. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @59 Phantom: I had held off on refreshing the beta preview database since it pins that grid offline for a day to refresh it, but if you think it’s time I can certainly get another snapshot refresh scheduled. Do you have any thoughts on how often it should be refreshed? I’ve typically waited until someone commented on it before doing a refresh 😉

    /Sidewinder

  59. yuriko nishi says:

    i found a problem with all land vehicles that use banking to steer (different vehicles with different scripts, not all of course, just all i tryed). it´s not really a bug, but they work different now, and i couldn´t fix it so far. (when you steer, the rear goes up/nose goes down)

    and i noticed that all vehicles jump MUCH more now when you drive over seams between prims. i was hoping it would be less in h4.

    are this 2 things “bugs” i should report in the jira?

  60. Phantom Ninetails says:

    @60 Sidewinder Linden: Heh sorry about my comment I just realized I sounded kind of rude. I figure a good schedule for the snapshot to be refreshed would be 2 or 3 months.. Didn’t realize it takes a day to do though. You can postpone it if you’d prefer, personally I can stand to wait a bit longer now that the mainland Crash Me and nearby Havok4 test sims have returned (they disappeared for several days ’till 2 days ago) (so I’m only missing out on Mono). Maybe a day of the week where there’s normally the least activity.

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