Refresh of Havok4 Beta Preview and 490 Early Adopter with 14 Fixes (2008-02-13)

Quick Status

The Beta Preview and 490 Early Adopter regions have been updated to Havok4 Beta Server v, including a variety of important issue resolutions.

Since the start of the beta process, I have been carefully setting expectations with regards to vehicles, since we knew that they “really didn’t work right” with early builds. With this version we have crossed that major hurdle, and as far as we can tell, vehicles now have functionally correct behavior.

In other words, with this release, all vehicles that we know of (which clearly isn’t all of them on Second Life – but is a reasonably large subset) will rez, you can pilot them (float, drive, fly) and their actions should operate as expected, both for regular and mouselook steering (for vehicles that support mouselook steering). However, it is still likely that you will see some “speeds and feeds” differences on Havok4 – for instance somewhat different running speeds or turning speeds.

What Has Changed In This Version?

Changes in this build include (SVC items were submitted on the public jira issue tracker / DEV items are internally discovered issues / there are a few in this list that were fixed without jira tracking #’s…):

DEV-10430 (from blog post by Shadowquine): Attempting to rez no-copy, locked objects no longer results in inventory lossDEV-10100: Flight assist with Flight Feather and OmniPhaze no longer gains or looses altitude when moving

SVC-1253: Avatar sitting on prim no longer evades damage

SVC-1363: Vehicle maximum prim count no longer included seated avatars

DEV-9375: llSetStatus(STATUS_ROTATE_Y, FALSE) now works, although we have now opened another internal bug report DEV-10451, since after executing this function in some cases the prim will slide

DEV-10090: Car no longer flips onto nose when avatar sits on it

SVC-1333: Rezzing cube to a flat surface (floor, wall) no longer leaves 0.05 m gap

DEV-10003: Standing avatar is now pushed by an attachment such as Rocket Pack

DEV-9919: Shape approximation for narrow prims with cut paths improved

SVC-1178: Copy Selection no longer leaves a 0.005m gap between prims

DEV-9836: Avatar free fall velocities corrected

SVC-1239: llSetLinkPrimitiveParams can now manipulate seated avatar’s position

DEV-10351: Reduced tendency of avatar to snag or be thrown into the air when standing up from vehicle or seat

SVC-1089 (Partial): Avatar inertia no longer ends abruptly when jumping. Note that this iteration reduces the amount of inertia reduction (internally set to none) but horizontal avatar speed will still slow somewhat in air when jumping.

SVC-1449: First object in a coalesced group of objects no longer ends up named after the last selected item

Resolved many vehicle behavior issues, including roll behavior, mouselook steering, take-off misbehavior for some aircraft, turn and bank behavior and steering for some ground vehicles. A small cluster of bugs turned out to be the cause of all of these misbehaviors, and others.

At this point, it appears that the general operation of all vehicles we know of is now correct. There may be some speed differences with regard to Havok1, and some of that may end up being unavoidable due to differences in the Havok1 and Havok4 physics models.


Sidewinder Linden
Havok4 Program Manager

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45 Responses to Refresh of Havok4 Beta Preview and 490 Early Adopter with 14 Fixes (2008-02-13)

  1. Mavi Beck says:

    What about the constant crashing me and my friends are experiencing as of like now? Windlight and non windlight users….what is the deal?

  2. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @Mavi: This post is about the Havok4 project, which is specifically simulator/server-side work, and about the Early Adopter region deploys. There are other teams working on viewer crash issues, but I am not directly in those groups. /Sidewinder

  3. Nimrod says:

    Since the earlier post (the announce of the refresh):

  4. Elvis Orbit says:

    Great I got to see if on my Region before I left for RL work. So far so good. Thanks for the update. It is sure coming a long good. Keep it up. Cheers to Sidewinder and the H4 team ๐Ÿ˜€

  5. Drew Dwi says:

    @1 havok4 is a simulator system, windlight is the viewer, not related.

    @sidewinder everything looks good so far ๐Ÿ™‚

  6. Stick says:

    how about a post on all the probs we are encountering in SL then ?
    Scripts not working properly, took me an age to get to the blog page (couldnt connect) unable to delete objects, inventory slow and many many more today

  7. Sascha says:

    Great. Really nice work , go on with that.

  8. Cinthya Loveless says:

    Hey Sidewinder, I posted about this here

    IN havok 4 sims avatars float when standing or walking about 0.078 meters off the ground. This looks really bad and silly something that needs fixed. In my Jiira post I included pics showing the difference in A havok 4 sim and a sim with out havok 4.

    In the sims with out havok 4 your avatar stands and walks on the ground properly with out floating. Please have a look.

    This happens on normal terrian ground nad prim floors. in havok 4

  9. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    I hoped to find a solution (affecting both H1 and H4) at least in H4… but i was too much optmistic, since the bug isn’t assigned as well. (!).
    Maybe someone the importance of this problem isn’t well recognized since it’s gonna affect only the free roaming physics objects (or to be precise, those object that manage with the phisics for more than a day.. because you usually derez/take your vehicle back when you finished to ride) like “pets”. After a certain amount ot time the physics gets PERMANENTLY disabled (and i don’t mean the property.. i mean what i wrote: permanently.. you can only delete the object, the physics will NEVER return back on the inworld one).
    Probably this is not so important for the most of residets.. but this is affecting seriosly my work (scripts for pets). The bug is documented here…. if you don’t wanna place your hands on H1 at least fix it on H4 before it goes “live” please

  10. Sidewinder, would it be possible to turn on interpolation for the next update, just as a test? I’m curious how many people REALLY need the ability to jump through objects, and I’m sure it’ll solve issues with people falling through stuff in heavy traffic sims.

  11. les says:

    LOVE! Will you be my valentine Sidewinder?

    This is indeed the best update to the havok 4 project yet as far as i’m concerned.

    I’ve been testing things for an hour or two at Misp. Very positive results. Bikes turn again! hooo!

    Some things are off, noticing my jetski turns about twice as wide with this new build. A script tweak should sure cure that. Quad seems to be running through mud, but can tweak that too (i think).

    One thing that still sucks far worse then H1 is the bouncing and snagging on prim seams. This is the one area that most vehicle makers and users were hoping for an improvement with H4..and its’ worse! I can’t gripe too much because over all this is a good build. Not quite ready yet, but positive!

    I also noticed i could not get a (hover)vehicle that combines the linden motor + llApplyImpulse calls to go over 40mps…I need to test this more with base scripts to find out what the issue is, could be something else. This one could be a problem.

    There is still an issue with client updates and hover things. For may appear to be sinking for some clients until they force an update with a turn or speed change. You can see this in action hardcore on my pool table currently. This behaviour is in H1 too…but much worse in H4. Can you look at why hover things are not sending updates or doing bad prediction?

    Thank you for the hard work. This build gives me hope!

    (pulls the pins our of his andrew voodoo doll)

  12. Awesome, (on paper) this officially fixes every issue we’ve encountered to-date with Havok4 on my test sims.

  13. Vincent Nacon says:

    good work, but still need more work on prim gaps/overlap issue with vehicles.

    (need to hear my suggestion about Param Motors)

  14. les says:

    erm, ignore this from my post above…”I also noticed i could not get a (hover)vehicle that combines the linden motor + llApplyImpulse calls to go over 40mpsโ€ฆI need to test this more with base scripts to find out what the issue is, could be something else. This one could be a problem.”

    this issue has corrected itself. though nothing changed!

  15. zermit says:

    @2, there is one thing though, if using windlight in a havoc 4 sim, or being TP’d to one, we crash instantly or a couple seconds with in a havoc 4 sim and this is not far as i can tell due to the client…. this ALWAYS happens to me.

    Since both are really upcomming perhaps atleast take a look at it ๐Ÿ™‚

    Both are to be fully in the maingrid at some point, if main goes windlight first, I think your project is screwd sidewinder cause no one will be able to use it.

    I hope this makes some sense

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @10 Feynt: The “fall through” problem has, to my knowledge been completely resolved (without enabling interpolation). There were several regions experiencing this problem in earlier builds, and my understanding is that there have been no recurrences since last week’s update.

    We are looking to avoid adding new physics features at this point in the project, so that we can get the Havok4-based simulator done and operational throughout Second Life. Once the Havok4-based simulator is part of the standard released simulator we can then start to look at the various capabilities that Havok4 adds to the possibilities for physics in Second Life.



  17. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @8 Cinthya: We’ll talk about this at the team meeting this week. As with Lex’s comment on that Jira, I have seen cases where foot alignment is slightly lower, and am not entirely sure what the cause of seeing both variations might be. /Sidewinder

  18. Cheshyr Pontchartrain says:

    @DEV-10351: Reduced tendency of avatar to snag or be thrown into the air when standing up from vehicle or seat

    This bug was not fixed. In fact, it is now much worse. Short-range sit-hack teleports no longer function, and people standing up from vehicles are now thrown several meters into the air.

  19. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @18 Cheshyr: This is reduced for our test cases, and I’m sorry that you are seeing different results. I suspect then that this depends heavily on the specifics of the vehicle involved. Could you please create a new jira explaining the specific products involved, with a step by step process for reproducing the issues that you are seeing? Thanks, Sidewinder

  20. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @11 Les: Would you please create a jira with a specific example with steps to reproduce for this behavior? I have seen this general issue reported a few times, but have not been seeing it in my own testing. It would be very helpful to have a formula that consistently creates the issue – might even lead to a quick solution ;).


  21. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @13 Vincent: Which “prim gaps/overlap issue with vehicles”? /Sidewinder

  22. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @15 zermit: I run various Windlight builds on Mac and Windows XP, and am jumping between Havok1 and Havok4 regions many times a day. I have run into “viewer deep think” where the viewer seems to lock up for 10-45 seconds, and some crashes on teleport, but have not found these to be linked directly to Havok4-enabled regions. I’ve had these happen randomly in various parts of the Second Life grid, and there are other folks looking at those problems.

    Have you tried “the usual suspects” such as clearing your viewer cache, or trying the release viewer? If you have corruption in your viewer cache, you might see consistent crashes going into a particular region, and that may have nothing to do with the simulator version itself. Is there a particular region that you always crash going into (which one)? Have you tried teleporting into other Havok4-enabled regions – does it happen there? Does it happen on the Beta Preview as well?



  23. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @9 Vittorio: Could you please re-test this behavior with the new Havok4-based simulator that we just deployed? It may already be fixed, and would like to know for sure that it is still a problem before we put time towards researching it. If your region is not Havok4-enabled, you can test this on the Beta Preview by downloading the beta viewer from the test software page. I have re-classified it as SVC-1542 (service/simulator) bug. Thanks, Sidewinder

  24. RodneyLee says:

    SVC-1333: Rezzing cube to a flat surface (floor, wall) no longer leaves 0.05 m gap (rezzing on Ground still leaves GAP)

    Still Broke,

    also when Copy Prims that are hollow, the over lap
    using copy selection

  25. zermit says:

    @22, Yep sidewinder, your answers ๐Ÿ™‚
    Have you tried โ€œthe usual suspectsโ€ such as clearing your viewer cache, or trying the release viewer?
    yep every time.

    Is there a particular region that you always crash going into (which one)?
    Extreme is the main one I go to.

    Have you tried teleporting into other Havok4-enabled regions – does it happen there?
    Yep every single one I have attempted to venture in with the windlight client, I’m ok with the normal and R.C. versions

    Does it happen on the Beta Preview as well?
    I haven’t been on the Beta Preview grid since Voice was there. Well I had in the beginning havoc days, but never stayed long to do anything

  26. Elvis Orbit says:

    Back from work and playing on the update. yay Flight feather and all my other stuffs works perfect! Thanks!

  27. Sean Heying says:

    les says “Will you be my valentine Sidewinder?”

    /me chuckles and mentions “Too Late” as he swings the key to Sidewinder’s collar around his index finger.

    Boats are still too low in the water, Gypsy’s swimmer is too low in the water and the Swimmer from Siggy Romulus still fails to work.

    Ive also seen the deep think zermit mentions, but rarely, looking in collisions shows I am colliding. After 20-45 seconds it clears and I can move again.

  28. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @27 Sean: Not quite sure what to say about the first part of your post, Sean. Appreciate the support, but I don’t do collars except to get them fixed…

    In any case, which boats in particular are too low, and can you give a sense of how much? One of the issues we ran into is that actually the Havok4 simulator positioned the boat at correct flotation height, and this is a case where the original Havok1 simulator did not. As a result there are a variety of scripts that have an offset in them to “fix” the Havok1 flotation height. We haven’t yet fully decided the right answer to this issue – thoughts?

    I hadn’t seen the Siggy Romulus swimmer. Where can those be found?



  29. Aria Alexandria says:

    Sidewinder I sent you an IM multiple times about my sLwim swimmer as well but you never reply :/ I can’t fill jiras as too many issues..

  30. yuriko nishi says:

    hi ๐Ÿ™‚
    good update on the vehicle stuff, my vehicles all work now. of course the scripts need some tweaking, but at least i have something to work with now! thanks ๐Ÿ™‚

    (the vehicles seem to stop way faster now than in h1 when you let go of the gas, and they turn much slower, bikes and jetskies that is, which rely on banking)

    another thing i found that seems not to work atm are push bullets. maybe thats on purpose? ๐Ÿ™‚

    if not it would be nice if you could have a look in your spare time (lol)
    i use pahntom bullets that become solid on impact, but they seem not to collide with avatars.

    good job, keep going

  31. Sean Heying says:

    The Gypsy swimball is by Gypsy Paz and can be gotten from Gypsy Falls/184/50/22

    The Swimmer by Siggy Romulus can be gotten from WaterWorks/218/65/29

    Kitto Flora’s boats and swans from Wish/244/157/21 are too low in the water

  32. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @aria: I have replied… and if you will refuse to document the problem in a way that we can solve it, then we cannot solve it! /Sidewinder

  33. Andrew Linden says:

    @18 Cheshyr: The new vehicle dismount code only tries so hard to find a good place to stand, and some vehicles might not work well. Drop a copy of the affected vehicle on my profile so I can troubleshoot the problem.

    Also, I’ll be needing a vehicle that snags on prim seams. If you’ve got one drop me a copy with info on where to test it.

  34. Balthazar says:

    I’m rather interested in this development from a builder stand point i create mostly speed boats and large luxury yachts. Does havok 4 remove the issue where when you are driving your boat or other vehicle and it bobs up and down in the water between floating and sinking? cause this can kinda ruin the experience of the enjoyment of driving a fast boat. Also does havok 4 have any issues where you are going at a relatively fast speed and the speed causes issues in relation to the physics you should be experiencing. I.E like the bobbing up and down sinking/floating issue does this likely come back depending on how fast you go. Also is the linked prim count affected in relation to scripts as it is now if you link over 30 prims together and have a script which makes them move like a vehicle you then need to have the vehicle attach to the avatar is this being removed or the prim count raised or is this not really something that the physics engine handles?

    Also whats the time frame of a grid wide roll out of Havok 4?

  35. o.h. says:

    well unlike most other people im dependant on very accurate TPs and so i can tell you that this latest update completely messed up the way TPs act for me.

  36. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @34 Balthazar: Please test your boats on the Beta Preview grid, or have your Second Life islands converted so that you can test your boats. We have completed most of the milestones for this release, and are bearing down on the final clean-up before the Havok4 simulator becomes the release simulator used across Second Life. If you find issues that interfere with your boats’ operation please log a jira, and attend office hours if you can. The total prim count allowed for vehicles has not changed for Havok4. Regards, Sidewinder

  37. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @35 o.h.: The Havok4 project has not been purposefully changing anything in the area of teleport code in the simulator. We merge our codebase with the release simulator regularly, and are running the 1.19.0 simulator core, which is the same one used on the rest of Second Life. Could you please provide a specific example that we can reproduce, along with the specific differences you see with teleporting on the release simulator and Havok4 simulators? (Specific region names may help with this one). My hunch, although I’d be happy to find out otherwise, is that this is not a Havok4-specific issue. If it is, we will take a look at what is going on. /Sidewinder

  38. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @30 Yuriko: Could you please contact me via in-world IM to discuss what you are finding with push bullets not working? /Sidewinder

  39. Balthazar says:

    Oh does havok 4 change how sculpties are in terms of the physics like say you make a seat but when you sit on it and find you are levitating or sunk into it?

  40. Aria Alexandria says:

    @32: Will Sidewinder I tried to IM ya few times, I wanted to discuss, few minutes.. anyway I’ll drop you a folder.. and fill a Jira I guess. Either ways, only the attachment sLwim gives some issue, all the other products are working in this version!

  41. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @39 Balthazar: Sit targets are slightly different, and the physical approximations of some shapes may be somewhat different. It really depends on the specifics of the situation… /Sidewinder

  42. o.h. says:

    @Sidewinder: The bug is indeed H4 related, although you lindens seem to call it a feature. My simowner has filed a very detailed bugreport to which i have also posted a comment, do what you like with it.
    Frankly, I think its a huge change and im very surprised noone else noticed this change. i must be the only person in SL dependant on exact TPing in my build.

  43. Have Whales says:

    I have two whales by STARAX which no longer work in Havock 4. They are rare items and very valuable. They just flounder on the ocean floor or sink into the ground now. Please look into this!

  44. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @42 o.h.: Oh *that* problem. Yes we are quite awareof it and have been working to resolve the issue. /Sidewinder (as with some things in physics, the cause and resolution are not as obvious as they might seem, but we are working on making dismounts more predictable)

  45. Sidewinder Linden says:

    #43 Have: Please IM me in world. We will need to connect so that I can determine which model this is and check some things. Thanks /Sidewinder

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