Havok4 Early Adopter Program Region Conversions Delayed

During the region conversion process for the Havok4 Early Adopter Program, a problem was found that required us to convert existing regions back to Havok1 temporarily. I expect that this issue will be resolved in short order, and hope to have a new version of the Havok4 simulator ready to deploy during this week. We will be re-deploying the Havok4 simulator to all regions on the request list as soon as an updated version has passed testing.

I want to take a minute to say a big thank you to all of our dedicated beta testers and early adopter users for your support, and for your help with identifying and resolving issues. Your work is making a big difference in helping to make Second Life better for everyone.

If you have not signed up to be a part of the Early Adopter Program, please see this post http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/01/18/announcing-the-havok4-early-adopter-program/ for more details.

Best regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Havok4 Program Manager

This entry was posted in Bugs & Fixes, Preview Grid. Bookmark the permalink.

122 Responses to Havok4 Early Adopter Program Region Conversions Delayed

  1. Meghan Dench says:

    Will this mean that the Crash Me Regions will be going back Offline again?

  2. blue baby blessed says:

    i cant get on sl….iam in england…..does this affect why i cant get online?

  3. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    Guys i don’t think this as anything to do with other problems.. 🙂 They just reverted back H4 regions.

    In topic: initially i tought i did something wrong and got punished by the big hand. 😀 ….catch you the next week then. 😉

  4. ZoHa Boa says:

    Unbelievable !!!

    The other post was SO promising and than this ….

    Is there nobody at the lindens that can test something ?
    Don’t you have sims of your own to test this version before you make this public ?

  5. Chalice Yao says:

    Zoha: stop whining. This -IS- a test, in case you didn’t get the whole progam here. They -ARE- testing Havok 4 under selected maingrid conditions with this.


  6. April Heaney says:

    @ ZoHa:
    This isn’t technically ‘public.’ I have a privately owned region I volunteered (two key points) for Havok 4 because I want to help LL with this ongoing process (another key point) and I wanted to be able to test my own work in the environment in which I do 99% of my development.

    Disappointing that it had to be reverted, but that’s the nature of software development, as any competent developer knows.

  7. Twirlin Merlin says:

    I am also unable to log on and can’t access the SL main page either. Come on guys, hurry up and get this sorted. It’s been lime this all day!

  8. Ollj Oh says:

    “problem” means anyone could rotate anyone elses prim, regardless of set permissions, with a secret key combination on some havoc4 server versions with some clients.
    Many did this by accident but did not know how.
    Only havoc4 test servers have been affectedand this “rollback to havoc1” saves from vandalism and accidental rotations over the weekend.
    It was a big bug in the used engine, that finally has been able to be reproduced, so they can now fix it, monday?

    A havoc 4 region can calculate roughly >100 times as many physical objects or collisions per second (maybe 1000 times) as a region with an older physic engine, with the same time dilation as effect.
    500 physical objects, on havoc4, with 31 prims per object, free falling and close to each other, cause a time dilation of roughly up to 0.5 .

  9. Malachi Petunia says:

    Malachi Petunia Says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 11:17 PM PST

    “Several months ago public beta testing of “the project you thought would never ever get finished” was announced”

    So in other words, it isn’t actually finished? Perhaps you should follow the Linden convention and mark it “[FINISHED]”.

  10. Flame Swenholt says:

    Havok 4 was a blast, but…two bugs I think that got reported were..if you try to land vehicles that run like a helicopter…even a slight touch to the ground = instant break dancing vehicle… That and while turning the avatar, you move ever so slightly. However, they’re not major so I doubt that was the reason.

    I hope it’ll return…soon… The irony was I was the one who was afraid if Havok 4 would actually mess things up XD

  11. Alisha says:

    Thank You Ollj for the clarification. That could have been messy. Good job concierge and Havok teams for rolling back quickly.

    Lol @ Malachi . If you like we could have ll roll your region back to Havok 4. We will all come over and help you rearrange everything. ^^;

    One bug at a time. One bug closer.


    p.s. Sidewinder, How do i get my regions mirrored in the Beta grid. We would like to keep testing, but now we’re spoiled and want to do it at home. :P:)

  12. Trinitystareyes says:

    I am in UK and cannot connect either ALL DAY, cant even connect to secondlife,com support pages or anything, blog is the onnly thing i can access and it states nothing about this issue!!!!!!!!!!

  13. evacaroline says:

    and whath tharh giwe meee …… eller på ren svenska massa nytt skit ge oss ett fungrerande sl vi är måmga sweden germany denmarks or more in norden contrys…..dont rate us
    linden give us al wee need to
    al neew is good but hawe an vorking is better……………
    hate al new ltet sl works…

  14. Chalice Yao says:


    Considering your calm, detailed and technical post, I’m sure you have checked your firewall for a secondlife.com entry because zonealarm warned you of evil haxors with a huge button, checked with your ISP, did a traceroute to the sl website to see where a router might be hanging…

  15. Twirlin Merlin says:

    RE:Trinitystareyes Says:

    I am in UK and cannot connect either ALL DAY, cant even connect to secondlife,com support pages or anything, blog is the only thing i can access and it states nothing about this issue!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry to go off subject people but this is the only contact us poor forgotten souls in the UK seem to be able to get with SL. There’s nothing mentioned in the blog as Trinitystareyes points out and the main page is unavailable. Come on Linden, at least tell us you are aware of the problem. Hey, is this what they mean by Havok? It’s certainly messed up my day.

  16. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @4 Zoha:
    “Is there nobody at the lindens that can test something ?
    Don’t you have sims of your own to test this version before you make this public ?”

    1) We did internal QA before posting every build of Havok4, but Second Life is also immensely complex, making checking every perumutation of everything “quite difficult”

    2) It was on the Beta Preview through many versions over the course of months, and no one picked up the issue that we found

    3) We deployed a version of this simulator, live, to our internal Linden Lab regions that are used every day for meetings and internal testing, for several weeks before taking any step on non-private regions.

    4) A version just previoius to this one was deployed to 40 regions on Second Life, with daily monitoring and follow-up with the estate owners to see if there were any problems found.

    5) The Early Adopter Program is an additional BETA TEST and was explicitly described as a beta version, being deployed to a limited part of Second Life for testing.

    In the face of this careful, gradually expanding test process, with incrementally expanding testing to be sure of the behavior of this new simulator before releasing it for widespread use, it is hard for me to understand the claim that we are not doing reasonable testing for the Havok4 simulator.

    I invite you to join the beta testers and participate in finding whatever issues remain, in order to build a better Second Life.


  17. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @9 Malachi:
    “So in other words, it isn’t actually finished? Perhaps you should follow the Linden convention and mark it “[FINISHED]”.”

    This project is not “Finished” because it is not yet at the point that the team members are satisfied that we have met the project objectives, in terms of capabilities, reliability, security, performance and compatibility. We believe that we are getting much closer to that goal, and an incrementally widening beta test process is, for this system, a very good way to discover hidden issues so that they do not appear later on, once the simulator is already running all of Second Life.

    When we are satisfied that we have met the project objectives, we will be “Finished” and fold this work into the standard simulators that run the rest of Second Life.


  18. digital digital says:

    thank you lindens for catching this so fast!! Amazing job 🙂 can’t wait to get back on havoc 4

  19. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @10 Flame:
    The strange landing behavior of some vehicles on some terrain is a known problem, and is one of the issues I was referring to when I mentioned that there are still remaining vehicle issues to sort out. You will probably find that this issue does not happen all the time with all vehicles. At the same time, other than taking care of the issue that blocked this deployment, our focus over the next few weeks is to sort out the rest of vehicle actions.

    Thanks for your support,


  20. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @11 Alisha: “Sidewinder, How do i get my regions mirrored in the Beta grid. We would like to keep testing, but now we’re spoiled and want to do it at home. :P:)”

    Umm Alisha… Ask? More seriously, please IM me with the region list that you would like to see on the Beta Preview and how long you need them to be there, and I’ll see if there are enough spares to accomodate them.


  21. Crucial Armitage says:

    Thank you Sidewinder and Thank you for the careful methodical way you are testing and retesting the havok 4 server.

  22. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @12 Trinitystareyes and 15 Twirlin: Please note that I have been able to connect to all of the Second Life sites all day from the East Coast of the US (and those servers are hosted in other parts of the country), so I suspect that this may not be a Linden Lab issue. Please understand that Second Life, and the related web sites, operate globally. There are times when an Internet Service Provider has routing problems and cannot route traffic to destinations across the globe. Please check with your ISP to see if they are having a routing problem. When you talk to the support rep (and please talk on the phone if you can) ask *them* to try to connect to the web site. If they cannot, they may think a little harder about why they cannot and may find the problem.

    I am sorry that you are having connection problems, and we will continue to do our best to keep our systems available to you. Please also remember that the Internet is a large, extremely complex system with many possible failure points – many of them completely outside of our visibility or control.

    Best regards,


  23. Iexo Bethune says:

    You know, I actually like this. It seems horrible, a catastrophe for an obsessed some, and is definately not a good thing that they had to roll back, but this event DOES show that they’re on the ball here.
    This is the main grid, and they don’t want any vulnerabilities that could cause someone to permanently lose main-grid builds or objects. Pulling this version until the vulnerability could be fixed was a very responsible move that prevented a far wider and more severe catastrophe had they left it alone over the weekend.
    Let’s give these guys some credit, people. We begged for Havok 2 or 3, but they went above and beyond the call of duty to give us 4. This is an enormous upgrade. Let’s give them a chance to do it right.

  24. Trinitystareyes says:

    hmm Merlin what ISp are you on>> I use Talk talk, sadly there customer service sucks and they are now closed so i cannot ring them. howver i can connect to every other website world wide that i try except secondlife.com, the only two pages i can acces on that are this one and one more niether offer me any info on help with this.

    And yes firewall is all fine i checked everything with regards to it being my own PC. If merlin is on same ISp then maybe its their issue,if not surely it is something else.

  25. Digital Digital says:

    I would love to have my region up on the beta grid! That would be way cool 😀

  26. Sean Martin says:

    Has anyone tried to fix the vehicle problems that Havok 4 will cause?
    It will destroy many products but seems few care.

  27. Ghost Menjou says:

    As I know from my programming and coding experiences I have to say one thing.
    Bugs will always exist.When you make something it can take over months till its running like it should but new bugs always be discovered.
    I discovered the bug and reported it to Sidewinder and I was amazed how he quickly examined it and did a full rollback to save the grid from vandalism and other problems.
    The problem was a certain keystroke to allow things to be done.This was not found as nobody uses this keystroke.
    Its probably a function left in that seemed to be harmless back in the days of Havok 1 and never was taken out because they didn’t think it would do harm.

    Sidewinder and other Lindens did a great job on Havok 4 integration.

    This was a bug that many programmers probably didn’t notice no matter how experienced they are.

    I have to thank the Lindens for such a fast response and rollback.

    @Sidewinder: Thank you for bringing us Havok 4 and getting all the bugs out.
    I know many programmers that would say meh and leave dangerous bugs in the code.
    Sidewinder, You really did a great job and I feel very confident in the Lindens.

    @Everyone that complains that LL doesn’t do a great job: Without them ,there wouldn’t be a SL.

  28. MarkByron Falta says:

    In addition to the admitted but grossly understated problems of vehicle breakage & under performance, all SL combat devices & programs are now nerfed as sitting AVs in damage enabled parcels are immune from damage in Havok4. Provided an AV sits on an object such as a basic cube (not including the ground), the AV cannot register any damage whatsoever. As such, the combat sandbox, Sim Jessie, and user combat sims will be essentially non-functional if Havok4 is deployed as is. At the same time, judging from how often the Havok4 test regions such as Crash Me are taken offline, they appear to be just as susceptible to physics based griefer attacks to slow the simulator to a crawl or crash. It’s great that we’ll get some extra working vertical space and hopefully some appreciable simulator performance, but it is necessary to break a massive amount of physics based content and negate the SL combat system to do so?

  29. Twirlin Merlin says:

    Re: 24

    Yep. I’m also on Talktalk Trinity. I’m aware of three other talktalk customers that can’t get a connection either. I checked with one using virgin and their connection is OK. Looks like Sidewinder was right. TT’s customer services sucks at the best of times and they are closed now. Probably until Monday. Gonna be a long weekend. 😦

  30. Desmond Shang says:

    Seems the program is working as intended – bugs are being found, fixed, and we are moving forward.

    I’m very happy to be on board with this. Expect the Caledon regions to always be a part of testing, whenever possible.

  31. Sean Martin says:

    Yeah H4 will cause a lot of product issues. I never heard about the one with combat sims. That sucks.

    The one I am having is that many of my vehicles climb walls and over objects. But in Havok 4 they drive right into the object or wall.

    It seems to think the VEHICLE_LINEAR_MOTOR_DIRECTION is global and not local to the vehicles current angle.

    The vehicles now seem to operate more like a track system and want to travel along the x y axis rather than a dynamic motion.

    So basically if a vehicle is pointing upwards on a ramp.. it will try to drive into the ramp rather than travel along it’s current angle. UP the ramp.
    It still provides enough force to get up a ramp but when you reach the top you end up going straight instead of a curve as a ramp SHOULD do.
    Very unrealistic.

  32. Locke Traveler says:

    @28: Does ANYONE, besides the default combat sandbox sims, REALLY use damage-enabled for full roleplay combat? This is what combat systems are for. The handling of Linden-based health and damage systems is… mediocre at best. I’d love to see it given a proper upgrade, but Havok4’s actual physics is far higher priority than the simple combat engine. AFAIK, resident-coded combat systems which rely on collision events will still work properly when the avatar is sitting down.

  33. Trinitystareyes says:

    hey merlin,

    boooooooooo to talk talk, just so you know they open at 10am on sundays but tech support for net is premium rate line!! I shall be requesting refund for call cost. I hope they sort it out soon, i have sim half way through a build *cries* and knowing talk talk they wont sort itout anytime soon either

    xx TRINI xxx

  34. Minako Yoshiyuki says:

    Tch I knew I wasn’t the only soul that was having problems today….I hate TalkTalk I wish I never switched to them, I so want to call them all sorts but I don’t want to get banned.

  35. Twirlin Merlin says:

    Thanks Trinity. Double booooooo to talktalk. I look forward to the headbanging session on the phone tomorrow morning. NOT!! 🙂 I’m sure as usual they will try tell me it’s cos I’m using a mac or my filter is broken or I have my socks on the wrong feet or something, but we know better than that don’t we. 🙂 I have a half simm furniture store business with tier due. I hope they sort this out sooner rather than later or I will be rather upset.

  36. Minako Yoshiyuki says:

    Us screwed over talktalk users have to stick together XD

  37. elvisorbit says:

    I had Havok 4 for a few hours anyway can’t wait for it to be back. keep up the good work!

  38. nomoresecrets says:

    #6 “”as any competent developer knows.””

    seems you didnt know one of those people.

  39. Liny Odell says:

    Any idea when H4 will be back out? I can’t rescript my tool to be compatible with H4 if i don’t have a sim to test in. :\


  40. Milo Bellow says:

    When I Log In I Have No Inventory…
    When I Search To Make It Load I Crash…
    When I Crash I Cannot Log In Until The Region Logs Me Out…
    When I Cannot Access SL I Come Here…
    When I Come Here I Write Things Like This…
    And You Want To Add To This “experience”?

    Do NOT Put The Cart Before The Horse, STUPID…


  41. Sean Heying says:

    @28 – Did you test all weapons and submit a Jira? That *is* the only way things will get fixed.

    Some ideas for you to test before you report; has the sit changed the 0,0 position so that bullets no longer hit the Av? Can a dumb bullet hit and cause target, are only smart bullets at fault?

    This type of offset issue is possible in Havok 1 on a sit too, move the object 90M when it’s sat upon then offset the av back to the original position. Result is that self aiming bullets no longer hit you. No damage.

    Are you sure it’s not the weapon… maybe the damage is still working fine… have you spoken to the weapon maker to get their opinion on the suitability of their weapons in Havok4? Most weapons use expoits anyway, the better makers… like April Heaney… will no doubt work hard to find alternate hacks. Until then you might need to learn to roleplay a little.

  42. Espresso Saarinen says:

    Sean Martin Says:
    > Has anyone tried to fix the vehicle problems that Havok 4 will cause?
    > It will destroy many products but seems few care.

    the sailing community has been working with the H4 folk at a detailed test level for considerable time. the latest build (the one just pulled off main grid) was *significantly* improved for sailing, to the extent that detailed physics were hard to differentiate from H1 performance.

    and, as sidewinder clearly said, more work on vehicles is coming.

    if you don’t find the current H4 builds suitable for your vehicles, then don’t ask to have your region in the test.

    if you just want to bitch and moan, perhaps we should all chip in some lindens and buy a sim and call it Procktology, and we can all go there to whine.

  43. Argent Stonecutter says:

    “Has anyone tried to fix the vehicle problems that Havok 4 will cause?
    It will destroy many products but seems few care.”

    The intent is for vehicles to work without modification in Havok4. I have made some modifications to mine to help it recover from the region crossing problems I’ve found in H4, but I have avoided making any big changes in the handling because I am sure that they will be unneeded by the time it rolls out for good.

  44. Yukinoroh Kamachi says:

    Is the rollback affecting logins? I can’t login to SL at all right now, it gets stuck at “Connection to Region”… I thought that if the region was down for rollback, I would be teleported home or something?

  45. Corsi Mousehold says:

    As one of the Beta testing sims I can say I LOOOOOOVE H4. The sims are far more stable and alot less lagged from collisions and physics. But also as one of the beta testing sims it was our residents that found the bug. I talked to Sidewinder and he was telling me the correction should not take too long at all.

  46. OMG sidewinder !!! Releasing something that doesn’t work for even all vehicles ? djeezes how irresponcible. Is that customers service?
    Geuss not. Anyway i will never get used to have something oppressed upon me. Therefor i state “Get responcible in your actions. and not something again that doesn’t work in a proper way.”.

  47. Well all next thing they ban is vehicle use in sl. Problem solved for them.

  48. Sean Martin says:

    lol Vehicle ban. That would be interesting.

  49. funkysharknation says:

    this is a beta..

    so flipping things back and force is expected…

    we are happy to have a ‘great white shark’ as a testing region and hope we can enjoy the first testing shoortly.

    Ralf Haifisch

  50. Lao-Tzu says:

    @ 31 I noticed the same issue. Were you referring to a SimBoard? On the beta grid, I would try to climb up the curved surface of the ramp and would instead…not climb. The SimBoard -a skateboard with no wheels- would simply go straight and get stuck. I am not too concerned as Sidewinder has stated many times now that they are concentrating on vehicle issues…so no worries.

  51. Lao-Tzu says:

    Sidewinder, please check the Mauve sim on the Beta grid. I accidentally dropped an object from my inventory that I cannot find and it is creating lag and I get the following message every 10 seconds:19:39] Can’t create object ‘Object’ because the parcel ‘PIANO PIANOS BABY GRAND FOR SALE BEST SINATRA CARTIER’ at Mauve 171.818, 204.489 does not allow it.
    The message shows x and y location (to the 3rd decimal place I might add) but not the z axis. I have “select only my objects” checked and no matter how often I click-drag the screen, I cannot find it. It was self-replicating object too . I will try turning on beacons to see if that helps. I realize its a beta grid and not causing harm, but I thought I should let you know in case sim performance results are skewed by this.

  52. Lao-Tzu says:

    Disregard…found it. I have been searching for 2 days for this..Thank you beacons!

  53. Lexii says:

    @ number 4…

    Please stop your crying and trying to feel like what you have to say matters. You aren’t special.

    Thanks LL for trying to make things better, and not leaving the grid with sims loaded with a bad physics engine!

  54. atlwolf says:

    Thank you Sidewinder for all the hard work and being responsive to everyone’s concerns. I can be a thankless job for those on the project and scary for those on the receiving end, but we are taking a huge step towards the future stability of Secondlife.

  55. elvis orbit says:

    Yay thanks for the hard work. This means the main grid test is working. If they found issues in the first day and now can fix them it is great 😀 Keep it up!

  56. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @28 MarkByron: ” all SL combat devices & programs are now nerfed as sitting AVs in damage enabled parcels are immune from damage in Havok4. ”

    MarkByron this claim is grossly overstated. If you would please submit a jira for each issues you find, you will find that we do pay attention and do fix the issues we know about. Please see other comments for proof of this statement.

    In addition, there are combat regions that have participated in the early beta process and have reported that their weapons systems were working correctly.

    If you will participate and let us know in a concrete and structured way what is not yet right, we will work on fixing it.



  57. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @31 Sean: Please submit jira’s for each issue and we will make sure that they get addressed, and in particular malfunctioning LSL calls are high priority for us. /Sidewinder

  58. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @46 ToThePoint: To your points:

    1) Havok4 is NOT released. It is still in limited beta testing. I was quite clear that we were releasing this version to test other features, and that the vehicles were not fully functional
    2) Each region owner opted IN and no one was forced to use or be on a region that is Havok4-enabled
    3) I am working DIRECTLY with any vehicle and product manufacturer who has expressed an interest, and making sure that reported bugs are addressed as fast as possible.
    4) You are not oppressed, because nothing is being forced upon you. You can choose to stay away from any and all Havok4 simulators during this beta process.

    This approach is what many other people in the community have called responsible and appropriate. If you have specific bugs that have not been addressed yet, and are not listed in jira, please enter them so that we know what else needs to be addressed.


  59. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @50 Lao-Tzu:

    As mentioned before, I am actively encouraging all product vendors to test on the Beta Preview or on Havok4-enabled regions.

    The FIRST time I became aware of SimBoard was yesterday (Saturday) Jan 19, 2008 past midnight my time, when I received a panicked IM from the vendor (who had not previously tested his products on the Beta Preview in the last couple of months).

    I immediately offered to help, and asked him to create jira’s for any scripting fucnctions that seemed to be misbehaving.



  60. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @25 Digital: If you would like your region on the Beta Preview, please IM me, or if you are not the estate owner, then have the estate owner IM me. I will be happy to add it if you can let me know when you need it to be there. We are cycling many regions through the Beta Preview for testing, and so I prefer to have a window of one or two days when you know you will be using it there. /Sidewinder

  61. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @44 Yukinoroh: This removal of Havok4 simulators has nothing to do with any login or other problems. All that is involved in this is resetting the version of simulator for each affected region and restarting it. No other parts of the Second Life Grid are involved in the change. /Sidewinder

  62. Aw! I just got accepted for the test too. Don’t rush it I’m sure everyone will be happy to wait for a proper fix.. I am anyway 😛 GL!

  63. MarkByron Falta says:

    @56 There is a JIRA for the no damage to sitting AVs – it’s SVC-1189. Having been on the beta grid in the combat sandbox since it opened, I and many others can confirm the issue and it’s not particular to any specific weapon or weapon type. The problem occurs when sitting on any object. If it’s a bug that will be ironed out, great.

  64. coventina dalgleish says:

    Havok 4 will be nice if you ever manage to make it work but if the memory leak is any indication it will be another massive mess

    So tired of watching memory shrink while the sl window is poerational I did find a solution though minimize it ))

  65. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @63 MarkByron: I have marked this one as critical and imported it. We’ll be getting this fix in as soon as possible (likely not in this week’s build, but soon thereafter). Look for it in the fix list for one of the next few updates. Thanks! /Sidewinder

  66. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @64 conventina: Havok4 is on the server side of things, and has nothing to do with any memory issues on the viewer. /Sidewinder

  67. Selkit Diller says:

    To the lot of you who have complained bitterly about Havok 4 and its “myriad issues”, seriously. Get bent. I have been one of the more vocal critics of Linden Lab in past, on several issues. I have been a very active member of the community, and I have done so to *improve* the Second Life experience for everyone. I have yet to find any fault in how Havok 4 has been implemented and tested so far– I am actually honored that the community I administer to holds several of the collective of 40 main grid test sims.

    I am very pleased with Sidewinder and the rest of the Linden development team’s progress on Havok 4, and with the systematic, efficient means by which they have handled issues– Problems we have reported through our community testing have literally been solved in some cases within days, and they have actually been very seriously listening to content creators, so as to not break content whenever possible.

    Sidewinder, from one of Linden’s staunchest critics and a very noisy supporter of the Second Life experience’s potential futures, thank you for this honesty, for taking the time to respond, and for taking prompt action to safeguard resident content. From a long-term resident of the Second Life metaverse, thank you and your team. This behavior is very reassuring, and I hope this is a growing trend in Linden-resident relations.

  68. Wyald Woolley says:

    Flame Swenholt Says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 1:06 PM PST
    Havok 4 was a blast, but…two bugs I think that got reported were..if you try to land vehicles that run like a helicopter…even a slight touch to the ground = instant break dancing vehicle…

    Hahaha…when I read this I got an instant visual image from your description! God, how I’d love to see a YouTube video of this going on. Thanks for the chuckle. 🙂

    Yes, I realize that vehicles are gonna be taken care of in due course of the project, but, I’d love someone to make a video before it’s fixed.

  69. coventina dalgleish says:

    Yes the memory issue has nothing to do with the viewer but the viewer is what the user has to interpret the game and that opinion generated by the viewer is what counts here as long as the viewer and asset server are trash so the experience will reflect the same attributes. Not saying we do not need an upgrade to the physics but it really makes no difference if it does not exhibit in the final product.

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  71. Phantom Ninetails says:

    You know, I bet griefers’ grey goo is going to spread alot faster across the mainland with Havok4.. That’ll certainly be.. Interesting to see.

    Also.. Heh, this blog post explains why I went to a region with “Havok4” plastered all over the ground just to see in help that it is only running Havok 1. 😉 Guess my chance to test my physics experiments will have to wait for another day.

  72. Luxa says:

    The Land of NoR (NoRSim) is a 10 soon to be 11 sims of roleplay and combat that is hell on the physics engine. I can say without a doubt we LOVED the short time we had havok 4! We understand this is a limited beta and are aware there would be risks of just this happening. So no worries Sidewinder, thanks for letting us know and cannot wait for it to be turned back on.

  73. Soo Novi says:


    I had thought I had done something wrong when my regions were hilariously glitchy for only a short while. Thank you for letting us know the status and for your hard work!

    Thank you, too, for allowing more of us to help with the testing and eventual implementation of an upgrade that is going to make such a significant difference to so many people! Those of us on my estate who are building and testing are grateful for the opportunity to be early testers. Developing our CS now, our play will feature many highly scripted avatars, vehicles and falling physical objects, so this feature will inevitably impact our play. We feel you are offering us a headstart on our own projects as well as helping LLs and the entire grid.

    We are happy to be a part of this beta testing and will wait patiently for the next roll out. Thanks for your hard work! Now, can we play “crash my sim” too, and if so – who do I contact? I’m happy to do it on both my full prims and my OS sims, if that testing will be helpful.

  74. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @67 Selkt: WOW – thanks! Your help has been invaluable in helping to sort out some important issues 🙂 /Sidewinder

  75. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @69 coventina: I agree that working on both server/physics issues and viewer issues are important. At the same time, viewer issues are not part of this team’s work at the moment. There are other teams and projects working on viewer projects. Thanks, Sidewinder

  76. Sidewinder Linden says:

    73 Soo: Please feel free to IM me if you would like to have your region on the Beta Preview for a period to test your build there. Some builders have found it helpful to have a scheduled slot on the Beta Preview as an experimental workshop space. /Sidewinder

  77. SpankMe Pinkerton says:

    I nominate Sidewinder as Linden of the year. Very professional responses and an excellent job with rolling out H4. I hope my Tank Siege game, which is in final testing as well, can be helpful in ironing out the remaining vehicle bugs. Can’t wait to get Oz back on H4.

  78. Rayne Akina says:

    i’m with talktalk also and am having the same issue as merlin and trini goooooooooooooooooooooood i havent been able to get on sl for a day and a half now cant even send a ticket i wish i knew wat was going on *cries*

  79. Balthazar Fouroux says:

    I’d just like to say, how about LL gets the existing system to work before worrying about a new physics engine. Today was a monumental day for crashes and inventory issues. Getting it right first before moving on seems like a bigger priority.

  80. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @79 Balthazar: A significant percentage of the crashes are simulator crashes, in which a whole region crashes, tossing all residents on that region off. The results of this project are expected and hoped to significantly reduce simulator crashes, and that is why we are applying the level of resources to it that we are. Please see comments from other early adopters for validation that it has made a significant impact where deployed.

    There are other teams working on reducing crash rates in other areas of the Second Life system. Just because this team is working on simulator stability does not mean that others are not working on other issues!

    Best regards,


  81. can we stop the havok4 development and get the grid more stable people work here you know

  82. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @81 Kulalyle: Please see previous comment #80. This work is DIRECTLY based on improving grid stability, and the early adopter experiences have so far demonstrated that it will have a significant effect once we get to large-scale deployment. Regards, Sidewinder

  83. Schwartz Gustafson says:


    Thank you, Sidewinder and the H4 team, for your diligence and patience. This’ll be a much-needed upgrade that’s well worth the wait.

  84. elvisorbit says:

    I am shocked at some of the comments here such as number 81. Havok 4 has 100% to do with SL stability. Do not people look into what things are before they post complaints like that? If you work in SL or have invested money into SL in land or sims would you not want to be informed of what things are? A comment like that about Havok 4 plus some of the others make me wonder how many look into the things in the knowledge base or read the articles on the blog before complaining? Sorry to post this but that comment really got to me. I hate giving into trolls.
    Sidewinder has done a fab job with this and uninformed complaints like that just waste his time.

  85. Jonnyfx Pontchartrain says:

    Yeah, it’s pretty amazing the number of people complaining they should fix the grid or worry about stability before working on Havok 4. Let’s say it one more time for the terminally dense: IMPLEMENTING HAVOK 4 WILL MAKE THE GRID MUCH MORE STABLE!

    Again, thank you for your patience.

  86. Cat Gisel says:

    Cry havok?


  87. mimi says:

    can’t wait for havoc4! Lets make the grid more stable! Yay hurray for havoc4!

  88. Ann Otoole says:

    Get’r done Sidewinder! 🙂

  89. DR Dahlgren says:

    @67 Selkit Diller – Right ON!!

    I too regularly take LL to taks here for their often boneheaded approach to doing things; Forced upgrades to bad viewers, reappearing bugs, etc., but I also like to give Harrahs when do, which is the case here.

    To all you folks complaining about Havoc4, its deployment, testing, function, etc., THIS IS EXACTLY HOW A MAJOR UPGRADE OF THIS TYPE SHOULD BE HANDLED!!

    It was deployed on Beta Grid for testing and bug reporting and is now in a LIMITED beta on Main Grid for those whose desire to test it. Finding a fairly obtuse bug that most did not know about, and rolling back anyway, to protect those regions, was the proper way to handle things. The old way would have been to tell those estate owners to deal with it.

    What I find humorus, is some on the ppl complaining about the developement time spent on Havoc are also the ones cheering Windlight. ??? Havoc 4 will dramatically improve the use of the Grid and SL as a whole, not just pretty skys for you. LOL

    Sidewinder, again, my hat’s off. You are handling this in a very proffessional manner, the program is being run responsibly, and I look forward to its eventual deployment on the Grid as a whole. Don’t change a thing.

    Hopefully the methods used in this upgrade will filter over to some of the other deployment teams so that in the future dataserver, client and feature adds or upgrades will not have nearly the negative impact they often sadly do.

    Great communications with these blog posts too btw Sidewinder. I do feel like I am being informed as part of a team, not as a child being told my nap time has changed.


  90. Twirlin Merlin says:

    Hey, just a thought, but as there are potentially thousands of UK folk using this ISP that can’t get into SL and this is the only blog we can post to, wouldn’t it be nice if someone at Linden would kindly start a new blog especially for UK Talktalk customers who have been frozen out? That way we could keep this blog for what it was meant for. Thanks Havok bloggers for your patience and Sidewinder for not removing the posts.

  91. Sidewinder Linden says:

    Please stop posting here about your problems with the UK TalkTalk service. These issues are with your ISP and not related to the Havok4 project or Linden Lab. /Sidewinder

  92. Twirlin Merlin says:

    Well not sure if they are not Linden Lab issues or not. The internet is a complex thing and the router problem could be anywhere. AS this is the only portal available to us to communicate I would have thought you would have shown more tolerance. Especially as we are unable to send a help ticket to see if the problem is at Linden side. This happened before in Germany and in the end funnily enough it turned out the issue was at Linden end. Anyway, I take back what I said in my last post. 😛

  93. DR Dahlgren says:

    @ 96 Minako Yoshiyuki – in a DOS window type
    tracert http://www.secondlife.com
    and copy the results to paste in your report.

    A bit off topic, but here are a few notes on SL issues I have often seen and their origins:

    Poor connection on your side causes the following – (Most often anyway)
    – Can not connect or see the SL Home page but others can
    – Ppl outside your geographic area are not having the issues you are
    – Lag in ALL regions, scrambled chat is a great indicator of this
    – You are having issues in SL but others around you are not

    SL caused issues –
    – Can not connect and others can not either (www.secondlife.com/status)
    – Ppl all over the world are complaining of the same problem
    – Lag in a select or small group of regions, you move and problem goes away.
    – Everyone around you in SL is having the same issue.

    In the 1.5 years I have been in SL, I have found the majority of connectivity issues to be between my ISP and SL. Traceroute is a good way to check, as is using a site like http://www.speedtest.net (select San Fransisco). If you use traceroute, trace the route to sl and then to one you are not having an issue with, see where in the first few hops the machine names change and you will probably have found your problem.

    The SL Viewer hates older 64 meg video cards. I have it running on P3 computer, 512 Megs Ram, with a NVidia 7600 card and it feels the same as my double AMD CPU machine. It won’t run on my laptop with the Mobile Rampage drivers even though that machine is a P5 CPU with a gig of ram. A hack that allows use of the desktop drivers corrected that issue though.

    Yes I take LL to task for the screwups, but I do try to make sure it is LL causing the grief before I do.


  94. DR Dahlgren says:

    @ 96 Minako Yoshiyuki – Sorry, that should have read

    tracert http://www.secondlife.com without the http:// not sure I typed that in, but probably did by habit.


  95. DR Dahlgren says:

    Nope, the blog is “fixing it” for me.


  96. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @92 Twirlin: This is not a matter of intolerance. I am watching the conversation.. and am dropping the old “me too” posts about TalkTalk since they do not add to any better understanding of the issue. Have you or anyone heard from TalkTalk that they think the problem is on our end? If there is an action that I should have our ops group take a look at, I will, but this seems pretty specifically limited to TalkTalk and something in the ISP’s court.


  97. sloopy cooder says:

    I can not WAIT for Havok 4 and increased grid stability! I’ve been pretty critical in the past about LL not spending enough time on stability, and instead focusing on features, but from what I have seen in Havok 4, it IS such a stability effort. Thank you.

    Besides stability, are there any performance enhancements we can look forward to? It would be sweet to relax some limits.

  98. Twirlin Merlin says:

    Hi Sidewinder. I for one am in daily contact with the ISP engineers and unfortunately as is so often the case they are slow to locate the fault and have indicated that the fault could be at Secondlife side. As you can probably appreciate we are extremely frustrated and feel helpless as we have no way of contacting Linden Lab regarding this issue. Other than badger our ISP to try and locate the fault and set in motion a switch to a different ISP there is nothing we can do. I will of course refrain from posting to this blog and would appreciate any awareness raising you could do with the appropriate LL ops team members that there is an issue with UK talktalk customers unable to connect since approximately 5am GMT on Saturday 19th.

    That would be helpful and very much appreciated. Thanks and good luck with the next roll out of Havok 4. I can’t wait to get in there and get knocked over by something. 🙂

  99. Damien1 Thorne says:

    As a thought, LL should have a permanent post called the “Off Topic Bitch Blog”. When the post limit is reached the earliest ones could drop off. 🙂

  100. Shan Bright says:

    Sidewinder, Twirlin is right. *Please* try to understand. We are locked out of Second Life, of secondlife.com, of the help system: we have nowhere else to report this problem. You feel it is TalkTalk’s problem: after three calls totalling four hours to them, it is clear they feel it is yours.

    Now six of us have discovered the non-intuitive fact the the blogs are still accessible, and have become desperate enough to post in a thread on a completely different subject, so you can bet there are 60 or more likely 600 of us facing this problem: Talk Talk is one of the UK’s largest ISPs.

    And we are not asking you to accept responsibility – in fact, I suspect you are right, and it the problem is with Talk Talk. All we are asking for is your *help*. A separate blog entry on this subject would encourage the “me toos” which you think are unhelpful. But they *aren’t* unhelpful if they reveal that there really is a problem, and it really is peculiar to Talk Talk users. It would give us something to refer the TalkTalk support staff too, and allow us to share a solution if any of us find one.

    Somewhere between TalkTalk and Linden Labs there is a blockage, which is affecting tens and possibly hundreds of users. I don’t care who’s fault it is – these things happen. Give us a way to communicate with each other about the problem with a blog entry. Watch that entry – *including* the me toos – to get some idea of the scale of the problem. And then – is it too much to ask? – perhaps someone at Linden Labs might call someone at Talk Talk and ask if there is a problem at a level higher than that which first and second line support analysts can access?

    Yes, I’m sure it’s tiresome. But my inbox is filling up with IMs: a customer needs help with a product they bought from me. Two stalls are approaching the expiry of their rent. In a few days, Linden Labs will be trying to draw their yearly subscription and land subs from my account, and I can’t convert my Linden dollars into USD to pay them (and my credit card won’t take the hit). If my tier isn’t paid, will I lose my land?

    We don’t *want* to post off-topic, but we have nowhere else to go. Open a dialogue with us: isn’t that what the blog is for?

    C:\Documents and Settings\Owner>tracert secondlife.com

    Tracing route to secondlife.com []
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms . []
    2 38 ms 37 ms 38 ms
    3 39 ms 38 ms 37 ms
    4 * * * Request timed out.
    5 * * * Request timed out.
    6 ^C

    In case it helps anyone, this is what tracert has to say. I wish I knew enough to understand what it is telling me.

  101. Zi Ree says:

    FYI, the traceroute shows it cuts off on a router still inside of the UK. is owned by Opal Telecommunications Plc, Manchester, Hope this helps.

  102. Beta X says:

    Sidewinder, perhaps something was already mentioned, but will the Havok 4 patch lighten the blow on any of the item lag and will it improve well “running space” for things to operate suck at scripted items processing more accurately and with more ease?

    ty for ansering us in here lol (2 thumbs & 4 barrels up) Woot Woot! rock on!

  103. Sedary Raymaker says:

    @27: “@Everyone that complains that LL doesn’t do a great job: Without them ,there wouldn’t be a SL.”

    Wow, Second Life exists, therefore Linden Labs must be doing a great job? I’ll have to spring that logic on my boss next time performance reviews come around.

    “Yes, my billing code is slow and crashes a lot, but it exists.”

    “Great job, Sed. Here, have a 20% raise.”

  104. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @100 Shan: Please see Zi’s comment. That traceroute seems to indicate that the packet trail stops long before it gets to us.

    It may be non-intuitive that blogs are accessible while other things are not, but please consider this: The blogs are hosted by a third party, and not hosted in either of our data centers, so the path to “here” is a different on than the path to Second Life. Often ISP routing problems are restricted to certain paths or portions of the Internet.

    Please pass on the traceroute to your ISP and have them see why the traffic stops where it does.



  105. Rayne Akina says:

    sorry for this post sidewinder but,


    go here https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1218

    quite a few of us have gathered to try and figure the problem out so this blog wont have to be bothered please just read threw that thread and hopefully we all can work together to get a solution.

  106. Dekka Raymaker says:

    I’m a British TalkTalk user and I haven’t had problems getting on, however over the past week kbps fell dramatically in the evenings, average during the day being 6800 dropping to a average in the evening of approx 1500, my router was Opal Telecommunications Plc in Maidenhead. I called TalkTalk on Thursday and by Friday my problems have practically cleared up.

  107. Patience Masala says:

    It has been very quiet lately in Linden Labs. What’s up? Usually there is more info streaming through here. Maybe they are hard at work trying to fix issues! Hey, can you guys at LL bug Nvidia and tell them to fix thier 169.xx drivers so my brand new 8800GT will work right for SL?


  108. Elissa Bristol says:

    what a video card for a game that can run off of a 6000 Nvidia card 🙂

  109. Beta X says:

    read through these, i see there will be Sim performance updating, will it be in essance more of a “Sim Saver” update with the sim performance? or will there be a wider “data performance pipeline” to increase the flow of work in these sims as well? eather way, i can’t wait to see what you all come up with in there and good luck to you as well Sidewinder

  110. Harvey says:

    Hi Sidewinder,

    First up, I’d just like to say thanks for the way the early adopter program is running, you’ve done a great job keeping us informed so far, reading and replying to all the posts can be quite time consuming, so I and I know many others really appreciate your effort.

    Second, if there’s a chance a list of havok4 test sims being released I think this is a great idea as I think it will allow for far greater testing without people having to log onto the beta grid and without them having to have their own sim to test havok4 in a live environment, also since classifieds are now mostly useless it will give a few people a chance for a little more exposure.

    Keep up the good work, and I look forward to the update later in the week 🙂

    and a quick ps to the concierge group, thanks for the quick change over between simulator versions

  111. Drew Dwi says:

    Sidewinder, you are the ONLY linden I have ever seen who follows the comments in the posts they do on the blog and actively and quickly responds to concerns voiced on the comments. For a long time I believed this was a one way communication link, you have changed that opinion. I hope you spread this follow through with others who make blog posts.


  112. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @110, 111 Harvey and Drew: Thanks!

    Harvey et al re “list of Havok4 regions”: I’ve heard widely varying commentary on this, on the blog and off, and think at this point that I am not comfortable publishing such a list, as too many folks are not in favor of the idea, and frankly I don’t have a reasonable mechanism at hand for handling opt-in of publication of region status on a per-region basis for hundreds of regions.

    Any approach I’ve thought of short of really automating this ends up with either handling thousands of im’s/emails or putting up a page where non-region owners could list a region that the region owner does not want listed. If there is an approach you can think of that does not involve writing code to hook into the web authentication system and then dynamically constructing the page, or some equivalent that allowis only region owners to opt-in to listing and makes sure that they are nominating only their own regions for listing…. I’m all ears 🙂 That project sounds pretty simple, but likely it wouldn’t really get done until after it’s useful life expires, so it hardly seems the right thing to devote resources to at the moment.

    Best regards,


  113. Harvey says:

    lol I totally understand the im’s/email thing, it would be a nightmare to administer and very time consuming for a limited benefit.

    I thought that more people would desire this than not but I guess many don’t want their sims turning into a war zone of testers with helicopters exploding every time they land 😉

    I’m not sure how effective it would be or how manageable from the linden side but perhaps if you wanted to do this, the support system could be used the same way we signed up for the program with a simple summary of list on blog and then the appropriate sims simply placed into a blog entry.


  114. Will Webb says:

    Hey Sidewinder,

    Is there any list available of the private regions that will be doing Havok4 testing ?

  115. Will Webb says:

    Damn; disregard my last. You just responded between reloads of the page 🙂

  116. Seath Taurog says:

    Sindwinder, would firstly like to thankyou for following the posts, is good to hear your thoughts as it progresses, and you and the others that offer helpfull advice for the off-topic stuff instead of just canning….. Is good a post is helpfull rather than critical…. My question is…. How does the bug fix go..and when will the role out for the adoption program look like restarting..??(and would also be interested on finding a list of Havok4-enabled regions- maybe the knowledge page is a solution) Cheers and Beers Seath.

  117. Stephane Zugzwang says:

    Hi Side !

    One of my customes reported that he couldn’t deployed my Virtual Reality Room when Havoc 4 was up. My latest installment uses the 20x20x0.5 (moderately) big prim, is that disallowed with Havoc4 ?

    “Havoc” coul earn its name on the grid when deployed if that’s the case, that particular prim is in VERY wide use all over ?

    Best regards and thanks for your careful handling of this deployment !


  118. Hiro says:

    20x20x0.5 is used allllll over my SIMs ;(

  119. Sean Heying says:

    Spankme says in @71 “I nominate Sidewinder as Linden of the year.”

    I second this, Sidewinder even beats Torley for communication.

    @117 and @118 prims smaller than 256M will be allowed to stay, it’s been said many times in each Havok blog. Your 20x20x0.5’s are safe.

  120. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @117 Stephane and @118 Hiro: As stated many times before, the Havok4 simulator will allow megaprims up to 256m x 256m x 256m to stay. Megaprims larger than that will be cut down to that size. To double-check I just temporarily put a region on the Beta Preview that I know has a VRR, and tried packing and unpacking it, which worked fine… so I suspect there is something else at issue here. /Sidewinder

  121. Vittorio Beerbaum says:

    The regions applied for the program are just returned to H4 right now.. at least mine.

  122. Stephane Zugzwang says:

    Thanks a lot for the clarification 🙂 ! Yay !

Comments are closed.