More on Age Verification

Catching up with the concerns that have been raised regarding our recent expansion of age verification testing….

Legality, Privacy and Data Storage
Some of you have raised the question whether the age verification vendor we have selected, Aristotle and their Integrity service, is complying with various global privacy laws, which generally pertain to collection, use and storage of personal data. We’ve been assured by them that they are in compliance with all relevant privacy laws. But the most important point here — which we think makes a big difference in evaluating safety and compliance — is that no data is being taken, retained or stored. Rather, an automated check is done at the point of contact, and all data is then purged. Thus, there is no collecting, using, storing, or transferring of your personal information beyond the one-time match. Period. Certainly, you are not being asked to place your information in a database.

We are pursuing age verification in a good faith attempt to comply with international laws, and after discussions with numerous governmental agencies across Europe, North America, and Asia. In some cases, these governments have publicized their views quite widely. We encourage this debate, but we also ask that you understand that we are seeking to comply with the laws of the countries our Residents are from — notwithstanding that many Residents may disagree with their own country’s laws or directives.

Voluntary Status
As currently implemented, age verification and parcel flagging to create adults-only restricted areas rely completely on voluntary participation. However, there is no assurance that either feature will always be voluntary for all Second Life Residents. It’s possible, for example, that we could be required at some point to make one of these features mandatory for the citizens of a specific country. Should that happen, we will do everything we can to provide maximum advance warning.

Accuracy, Reliability and Other Options
Although previous global testing of the Integrity system with a smaller sample showed a nearly 80% success rate, broader implementation has been disappointing, with too many failures. We’re continuing to fine-tune the process to improve the success rate. While the Integrity process is attractive because it offers global matching without any data storage, if necessary we’ll look into other options to ensure that minors are not accessing Second Life or inappropriate content.

About Robin Linden

Be the Change. You must be the change you wish to see in the world. ---Mahatma Gandhi
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150 Responses to More on Age Verification

  1. Jade says:

    A reply worth something at least.. Hopefully this doesn’t ruin SL like so many people think it will.

  2. Tim Tebow says:

    Thank you LL for this. Folks, LL has stepped up to the plate to protect minors from all the garbage that this user created world has produced. At the same time, LL has protected themselves from lawsuits arising from residents who turn a blind eye to those who visit their sick places.
    Its up to us now. Do the right thing, flag your pornographic sims and do YOUR part to keep your gross obscenities away from minors.

  3. Sean Heying says:

    Good to see you state in black and white, on the record that Integrity do not retain ANY information, that it is purged.

    Can you please advise if you transfer our avatar name to them? After all it is useless.

    Can you please advise what the purpose of this is? I places a 16M2 parcel in a mature sim, placed what could be broadly offensive porn into it and flagged it as verify only. People, and underagers, can stand millimeters away from the offensive material.

  4. Argent Stonecutter says:

    There wouldn’t be significant numbers of minors on SL if they hadn’t opened up “free” access in the first place. Nor would there be thousands of griefer and chair-farmer accounts bloating the userbase numbers and bogging down the inventory servers and forcing Linden Labs to cut services to legitimate users.

  5. Tasrill Sieyes says:

    So in other words we have no assurances that you won’t phase in full identity verification like you said you wanted at the beginning of you mission to “keep us safe together” and assure us that you will fold at the first sign of trouble from a country and crack down on our freedoms to use our own age verification methods. Also the last time we were given advanced warning of a major change in sl was the VAT tax that simply showed up on peoples bills without warning until you were forced to give people time to prepare for a 1/4 increase in their prices. And you also can only give us a corporate promise about what you tell us another corporation promised you when before they were going to store our data for 2 years for ‘legal reasons’. If you will give us the direct promise from Aristotle themselves then it might be a bit more easily believed.

  6. Tim Tebow says:

    I forgot to mention: As we speak, legislation is being passed here in the US to fight child pornography (listen up you sick age-players). Now do you see why LL does not want all of your pics,videos, chat logs, AND IMs on their servers? Yes:IMs are stored.

    House Passes H.R. 3791, the “SAFE ACT”

    “The legislation, introduced by Representatives Nick Lampson (D-TX) and Steve Chabot (R-OH), would strengthen, modernize and expand Federal law by requiring Internet service providers (ISPs) to report violations of child sexual exploitation and pornography laws and information on the Internet identity, like email address, website address, uniform resource locator, or other identifying information, about the suspected sex offender. The measure also increases penalties for ISPs that fail to report child pornography they locate on their servers.”

  7. FallenAngel Erato says:

    all i keep reading is a bunch of bable on how your gonna do this age verification now for months, is it possible to actually tell how we can verify and when do we need to do it and who to?
    personally i think its a joke because i have talked to so many who say there using there sister or brothers cc to get in game so it really isnt gonna stop any kid getting in, and as far as the person i wont say names talking about “gross obscenities away from minors.”
    thats an easy fix dont let your kids on the internet or maybe take the time to watch what they are doing on the net, thats the parents responsibility not ours

  8. Redmoonblade says:

    If i was a company that sold info like this, of course thats what i will email back. lol.

  9. LaeMiQian says:

    “no data is being taken, retained or stored”

    If this is so, then I have no problems with age verification, and in fact support the concept – my issues were with the method as it appeared presented.

    I am still dubious about the technical side and expect this will stay in a loooooooooong beta as issues arise for every different country – heck! my country can’t even keep my name the same on the electoral roles from one year to the next (they hyphenated it this year, putting it alphabetically where myself and the role recorder only found it after a call to the head office to check their computer records!) My RL name is a bit unusual in ways I am not prepared to go into except to say that I don’t have a single piece of ID where the name is exactly what is on my birth certificate! Every government computer (and my bank) has to have the name fields munged differently to take it. Multicultural country my oversized butt! ;-D

  10. Vivienne says:

    @2

    “Do the right thing, flag your pornographic sims and do YOUR part to keep your gross obscenities away from minors.”

    Do the right thing and educate your children not to use any computer application which is CLEARLY defined as being for adults only. Maybe they prefer church then.

    Thanks for the fish.

  11. Sean Heying says:

    Tim, Despite sexual ageplay being wrong, pixel kids are not real kids, pixel kids cannot be exploited, also under current US law pixel kids can’t make pornography. So this act is not relevant.

    We know both IMs and chat records are stored, this is how LL investigate ARs but let me say this… a group of SL boys talking about skateboards and BMX bikes is far from heretical.

    Return to your bible studies please and leave SL to the sane people.

  12. Cai Dollinger says:

    As stated before by other residents, the age verification is total bs. Even if the the info is purged, it is still unlawful to use a ssn for any reason other then local, state, or governmental purposes. I personally have left other “Games” specifically for this reason. With all the hacking and other ways of getting personal info, I dont see how you promise us, the end users of your product, that another outside source that promises you that this will be done, can believe it unless you yourselves have gone ahead and registered with this outsource company before. Like so many others here on sl, I dont believe in camp farming and the only reasonable thing to do would be one account unless need by those of us who use a network and share an isp. If you think you need to put forth the time and money to verify age, then you should think about looking into closing sl and prepare for dozens of lawsuits and a possible government crack down on even asking for ssn. Again, we have no garuntee about about the security of this outsource who claims that they will purge the info. there is always someone that will get offered money or even try the risk of id fraud.

  13. Rebecca Proudhon says:

    I’m going to go sell the Brooklyn Bidge now.

  14. JP Cone says:

    I feel that it would be overall better if SL would just require credit cards, debit cards, etc (or any such cards depending on country); it would solve a lot of problems since these cards are usually verified already. Granted, minors can still get around that but at least SL would have a universal policy in place.

    Sl started and the did away with requiring a credit or debit card to sign up, and that is fine, but it is also very acceptable to admit it may not have been such a great move and re-institute this ‘you need a card’ policy.

    I am all for “age verification” and will do so once it is in place and functioning.

    JP Cone

  15. Akamu Lurra says:

    I’m confused by the wording of the blog…

    >>Voluntary Status
    As currently implemented, age verification and parcel flagging to create adults-only restricted areas rely completely on voluntary participation. However, there is no assurance that either feature will always be voluntary for all Second Life Residents. It’s possible, for example, that we could be required at some point to make one of these features mandatory for the citizens of a specific country.<<

    Well then, why not push age-verification on the select country(s) that this will be required for and skip the parcel flagging. It seems that if they force 1 country to age verify then they will force all land owners to flag parcels for enforcement, thus forcing more people having to age-verify. All the promises in the world with good intentions never is a 100% guarantee that my information won’t be stolen (even if not stored). There is no guarantee that my data won’t be intercepted on it’s way by means of hacker or that this 3rd party’s software doesn’t contain a hole for someone to steal people’s personal identification (a scary thought if the system is automated). I believe LL of all company’s should understand this risk since last year they had a hacker break into their database stealing passwords. Sorry, I don’t trust the internet or 3rd parties with more info than my credit card and address, sometimes not even that much.

  16. bob says:

    @11
    i agree.
    a lot people say blaming the parents is a cheap shot, BUT ITS NOT. parents are the first line of defense. stupid people need to stop having kids thinking that they can just watch their soap operas while their kids do whatever.

    kids are sneaky, they can all lie, they are curious because they are new to the world, and they can find ways to do stuff just like we can. its the the kids with the ignorant parents that find the nasty crap in SL and on the internet in general. and its the stupid teens that end up “exploited” on the internet. sure its said, but you cant sit there and tell me the stuff these kids do were smart.

    back on topic, i dont care what LL does as long as i can keep making money, lolz

  17. Ryan Snook says:

    This whole thing seems like a colossal waste of funds better spent elsewhere. No other games, companies ect. require this level of identity verification. It would be simple enough to stick to the user contract you have in place now and simply implement another age check in game. This system would be as follows:

    1. Sims are marked as adult content
    2. Before being able to enter that area there is a warning window that pops up and warns the member of the content and another button set that contains a link to the terms of service ect and “I’m of the right age” or “I’m not of age”

    Easy as pie right? seems a lot better than having to scour databases for information to get verified and pay for all the processing fees ect. and there’s no questionable outside companies involved.

    Heck, it works for everywhere else in the internet world, why should SL go the extra mile at such expense?

  18. Dnali Anabuk says:

    Sean, we don’t know who the pixel children are; that’s the problem.

  19. LaeMiQian says:

    Rebecca Proudhon: Excellent, I have some Northern Queensland ‘wetland’ to put it on 😉

    I still don’t trust this Aristotle lot any further than I could kick them up a chimney! I would far more trust Linden Labs – at least when they break stuff it is by accident, not “accidentally-on-purpose” to use a phrase popular in the primary classtoms ATM (again, I was popular when I was that age too, but the kids think it is quite original 😉

    Why not use multiple verifiers and let them compete for our trust. Or is Aristotle giving a kickback for exclusivity and if so, isn’t this sort of anti-competitive thing illegal in most capitalist societies?

    Again, I have no beef with Age Verification per-se (but if you start talking about gender and location verification like was mentioned right at the start of this thing, expect the claws out) but I REALLY REALLY REALLY don’t trust this verifier. Their track record of ‘accidentally’ selling information to anyone who can pay speaks for itself. Will they “accidentally” keep a copy of the verification data? Then ‘accidentally’ sell it? And then get a nice little slap on the wrist because so many congresspeople rely on their services?

  20. Sean Heying says:

    18, Dnali… I am a pixel kid. How is that?

    What you don’t know is who the REAL LIFE kids are, is that buff Gorean master with chain of naked slaves (either male or female) a real life child or is he over 18?

    Age play has ZERO to do with this topic. Well, except for the fact that any reasonable real life child will come into SL to be something he is not and not play at being his real age.

  21. Azlyn says:

    Well, your system is working grand thus far. I reside in the USA, you won’t accept my drivers license number nor the last four digits of my social security number.

  22. Andrea Faulkner says:

    #4 – Argent Stonecutter

    You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! We have an artificially bloated number of residents that Linden Labs has been waving around like a victory flag to draw investors to Second Life since they lifted the credit card requirement in June 2005. Overtaxing a hardware and software backbone that ws never designed for the exponentially growing numbers of avatars that flood the database.

    This is precicely why LL has dragged their heels on implimenting age verification for so long, their precious number of “customers” for investors to reach with product placement, advertising, and purchasing sims to flog their merchandise.

    Even now, they make this entire thing “voluntary”, thus not putting the genie back in the bottle at all, but merely making some token show of compliance that they hope the German media (who STARTED this screaming about underage activity almost a YEAR ago when two adults were spotted roleplaying an underage sexual scenario by members of the German press) will accept as sufficient effort.

    This isn’t enough. It will NEVER be enough until Linden Labs makes this both manditory, and enforces it, and puts a credit card requirement on Second Life that will bar alts and underage children from accessing the grid. (NOTE: I didn’t say you have to PAY to play, you just have to demonstrate that you CAN by filing payment info to further insure that you’re PROBABLY an adult.) One card number for one avatar. No more alts bogging down the database.

    Oh and one more thing. If an avatar hasn’t logged in for over a year, it gets purged from the database to stop the strain. Be proactive, Lindens.

  23. rommie Vesta says:

    “[A]ge verification and parcel flagging to create adults-only restricted areas rely completely on voluntary participation.” I know it’s been said before, but I still want to point out that the entirety of SL is already “adults-only. ” I’d also like to point out that when the age verification entered its current stage of testing on Dec. 5th, the page that had the form for verification had link that was supposed to connect us to Aristotle’s privacy policy page. That link was broken and just redirected back to the form. I have just now gone back to that form and instead of fixing the link, it has been removed completely. Why was it not fixed? I agree with some of the other posters here; I would like assurance direct from the company. This could lead to serious identity theft at worse. Age Verification is such a good idea! Please don’t screw it up by holding back on questions that we continually ask.

    Oh, one more thing. If you, Linden Lab, make this verification mandatory, then it’s unethical to charge the residents for it, period. If it’s voluntary, then fine, I’ll consider it and if I decide it’s safe and the price is reasonable, I will do it and encourage others to do the same. If you make it a mandatory thing AND charge the users for it people, even premium residents, will start leaving. It’s like the mob collecting protection money from a shop keeper, “Pay us the money to protect you by verifying your age, or you can’t use our program.” Please think about that.

    ~r.V.J.

  24. tychoberesford says:

    “no data is being taken, retained or stored.” – they still don’t explicitly say by LL AND Aristotle or just by LL. This post says nothing. Plus, like #3 says, they still won’t tell us about avatar names.

  25. Lorelei Mission says:

    Hi Sean, good point except…: SL has never solved the problem of PG sims being right next to Mature sims. They have never solved the situation of unmarked Mature parcels being right next to Mature parcels that are check-boxed as containing Mature content. So of course, now, they have no solution to a parcel flagged “explicit” being right next to non-explicit parcels, either. As for what the “purpose” of this is, I assume they’re hoping it’ll provide some legal/liability protection to SL + land owners who use the system. – – – As for the related issues, it still seems irrational that roleplaying illegal sexual activities in SL is illegal, but roleplaying illegal killing (murder) in SL is legal. (Are we supposed to believe that murder is nowhere near as offensive as sex crimes?) All things equal, laws should either ban all roleplay of all illegal activities (!?!?!), or let people roleplay all their stories & characters at will… like bigscreen movie producers are allowed to do.

  26. Charlie Vanalten says:

    Ok so you want age verification ,fine by me,but the best way to do it is by credit card information.No credit card then you dont get into adult sims,simple really isnt it.I cant see what all the fuss is about. OK we all know about fraud and being cloned but this way we know where the information is and who to contact if our identity gets stolen.It will be Linden labs and the credit card company.So if governments want us to give age verification thats the way to do it. The other way is for the Governments to do it all,lets face it that is not being realistic.Most cant keep secrets anyhow.

  27. A-N says:

    Its a stupid Idea in the End.

    1: Its a Parents Responsibility to watch what the hell their Children are doing on their Computer in the first Place. There are Siteblockers that Parents can set that will prevent Minors from going to Websites containing Sexual Material, add Second Life to that as well and its fine. You cannot Register a Account unless you can go to the Website, Problem solved.

    2: Its easy for Minors to get on the Information required for Age Verification. That there are Minors on this Grid in the first Place should make some People think about what they are doing here. There is a Teen Grid for those, if they come to the Adult Grid instead, their Problem, not ours.

    3: Aristotle/Integrity or whatever they are called are probably going to get kicked in the Nuts by several Governments, or already did so. To use their Service will be the worst Mistake ever LL. Either Way, they will probably get several Lawsuits in the future for things that happened even before LL turned to their Service. At least, so far my Information on that Subject.

    4: The News Station that created this Hype about Ageplay CREATED that particular Scene in the first Place. That was no Ageplay, that were employees of said News Station ACTING as exactly that. LL can even prove that because they were so stupid to use the News Stations Computers to log into Second Life. Ever wondered why there were no new reports? Now you know. It may be true that it would be possible that something like this happens BUT as it stands now it appears to most People that it happens 24/7 in every Sim in SL, which is untrue.

    So to get this to the Point. I see why Age Verification needs to be done, however LL should overthink their Plans before that, think of other Options as those already available. As some People already stated, its Illegal for some of us to give away that Information to either LL or Aristotle.

  28. KittyCat Rosebud says:

    Thank you for further expanding on your Verification Process.
    I have a feeling people will still be upset given this company’s past.

    I would just rather a Safe and US Government Assisted/Linked or International Government Assisted company was involved with this. But I understand it’s likely difficult to gain low bids from these companies. Especially when places like PayPal are so busy and have these companies so devoted to them. I hope more glitches don’t arise as you get these other problems corrected. Scripting is difficult like that and that’s why you can’t snap your fingers and fix a glitch or bug for everyone.

    Tim Tebow–
    If you look further it is actually legal to Sexually interact with a Computerized Virtual Child or an Adult operated Virtual Child. Cases have gone through the court systems and this hs been made clear many times. I only care because things are supposed to be legal and such. I think SL is lieing about it relateing to the US and actually looking at other countries they have residents from. Instead of coming out with that they just keep saying it’s the US saying they aren’t allowed to by law.

  29. Its nice to know you are making an effort to answer some of the more important questions.

    “However, there is no assurance that either feature will always be voluntary for all Second Life Residents. It’s possible, for example, that we could be required at some point to make one of these features mandatory for the citizens of a specific country.”

    But, that worries me a bit.. if that example becomes a reality you may for example very likely lose an entire countries participation in Second Life.

  30. Two things continue to concern me:

    1) YOU may have been assured they won’t store data, but WE have not. In the end we’re talking liability and contract law, and as such WE haven’t signed anything with Aristotle/Integrity and therefore have no guarantees. They can give you as many guarantees as they like, it’s not YOUR personal data at stake here… but if you go bankrupt, your TOS says that nobody can be held responsible for any data collected by Second Life. This effectively frees Aristotle/Integrity of all barriers to use our data, since they haven’t made an express agreement with us to the contrary. Can you address this issue?

    2) As I understand it, it is a REQUIREMENT of the PATRIOT act, in whose jurisdiction both you and Aristotle/Integrity fall, that ANY collected data must be held for a time in case it is the subject of a DoJ information request concerning an outstanding investigation into an individual. Can you therefore clarify where you stand under the PATRIOT act, and whether, in fact, you are required by that act to keep ANY data and if so – what?

  31. Vivienne says:

    Everyone with a “payment info on file” has verified her/his age already, cause usually the underaged do not get a bank account, not even a pay pal account So why double check? Age verification by some identity card number could be an option for the ones who have no bank account, but not an obligation.

    I suspect LL wants to shut down the teen grid and let the minors on the main gid. Only then all this “age verification” double checking of already existing adult accounts would make some sense. They could have the kids on the main grid, but restrict the access of certain parts of the grid.

  32. Argent Stonecutter says:

    “No credit card then you dont get into adult sims,simple really isnt it.”

    Charlie: it used to be “no credit card you don’t get into SL”.

    That’s where it should have stopped. PG vs mature isn’t for “protecting kids” it was for “some people really prefer not to have prim bits waved at them”.

  33. KittyCat Rosebud says:

    Vivienne– I had a Credit Card, Savings, and Checking account before I was 18 and before it was popular.

    It is now normal for Tweens and Teens to have Credit Cards and Cell Phones. It’s just becomeing more and more popular to give them the refillable kind as Tweens and Teens already ruin themselves in these areas. Some Companies will still go after you even if you are underaged and even if you did something while Underaged.

    There is talk from the Teens that they are planning to Merge Grids in a Month,.. but that is rumor (mostly I hear about here on these blogs).

    What I think LL would hate but would make some sense is to make an under 13 Grid. It is basically imposible but the excuse parents and children have been haveing for being on the Adult Grid. I have run into 8-12 year olds countless times and they even told Lindens “I couldn’t get on the Teen Grid”.

    And yes,.. many Teens have PayPal accounts.

  34. Pingback: Second Life Age Verification: in beta now « Kitten’s Litter

  35. Darius Lehane says:

    In LL’s defense, I’ve actually used the system. I decided to do so because it gave me the option of using identification methods that would not provide enough information to commit identity theft against me — the last 4 digits of my social security number. I’m a reasonably (in fact, very) paranoid person, and found less cause for concern that, say, buying something on Amazon.

    Comment by all means, but please know what you are talking about first.

  36. Mixter says:

    LL is taking a lot of weird, self-contradictory actions lately in a lame attempt to simultaneously protect itself from liability without eroding its revenue base. I don’t think any of their actions would actually protect them in court, as they are filled with logically inconsistent positions. I wonder who advises them that these various schemes are actually going to protect them should litigation ensue. The fact is, the Adult Grid is for people over the age of 18, and if anyone under 18 is on that grid, it’s LL’s fault, no matter how desperately it might try to shift the burden onto residents so as to protect its revenue base (which is probably largely minors since membership became free).

  37. Michael Timeless says:

    Tim
    You’re words are hypocritical. If LL had “stepped up to the plate,” (your words) then there would be no “children” cruising around on the main grid in the first place.
    I have children and believe it or not the process of creating them would be something you might call porn. Personally, my spouse of 33 years and I call it something else.
    Because we are responsible parents we don’t allow our children to watch us “play.” However, without that “play” we wouldn’t have the kids in the first place.
    This is what I do to relax. However, what many of us are concerned with is not simply stamping out child pornography or anything else that doesn’t meet your missionary only style of life.
    DO NOT come in here and inflict your religious views on the rest of us. What I do in my sim, as long as it doesn’t violate the law, is none of your, or your God’s, business. So climb down off your high horse. All the “garbage” as you call it pays the bills for the rest of this world to function.
    For the record I do not support child pornography. However, every month when my credit card statement comes in I check it – like any responsible person does. If my children were accessing an adult site I would handle that myself, not rely on other adults to stop their play to police my children.
    You go right on praying to the government to do your parenting for you. Pray for them to balance the budget and pray for them to stop killing my kids who are old enough to serve in the war. Pray for a lot of things….But while you’re on your knees pray that people like you don’t turn us into a religious theocracy.

    If this was really about AGE VERIFICATION then how about I get on a plane I think one of the local carriers charges $49 to fly from here to San Francisco and show them my driver’s license, pilot’s license or any of the other photo identification I have since maybe my bald head and beard would not be enough to show that I am old enough to be here. Since they are keeping no records how about that?

    Just for the record LL, why can’t we verify our age in person rather than give information up that your not going to keep anyway. Give the word and I’ll be in San Francisco in person to log in – in front of you to prove I am my avitar.

    While I realize this is not an option for everyone it is for a lot of us who don’t wish to trust your 3rd party vendor.

    On the same subject, look up my record for the past few months with this avitar and let me know what child could afford to pay you the money i do. Once you publish that let me know where he works so I can trade jobs with him/her.

    Our world, our imagination is rapidly being subverted to the religious rights world and their lack of imagination. No wonder the Europeans think we are rediculous. Do you really think that Hipihi and the other virtual worlds will do this – Maybe the answer to virtual worlds is a communist nations view on religious zealots.

    Just my 2L worth

  38. LaeMiQian says:

    Sorry fro using up so many posts – I had too much sugar at lunch 😉

    If this thing is to keep countries happy re: potential child access to mature content (fair enough) why not put the onus on the individual countries to verify their citizens?

    Here in Australia, we generally use drivers’ licences for age ID. Not every adult (such as me until last week) has a drivers licence, so the Roads and Traffic Authority can also, for a nominal fee, issue a non-licence – a card that works like a licence for ID purposes, but doesn’t entitle you to drive. Australia already has this system set up. (Minors can have a licence, but the DOB is listed on all licences and in the database.)

    So you say to the Australian Govt: “If you want us to verify your citizens to stop your children accessing adult regions, give us the name:licence# verification hooks into your database.

    Then you say to people logging in from .au domain regions: “you must have a drivers’ licence or RTA age ID as proof-of-age to access adult-flagged areas.”

    And so on for each country – the form for each country might be slightly different, but the response from the database would be either “OK” or “Underage” and the name/ID# data would be sent directly to the government database verifier.

    Any country that doesn’t supply such hooks into their appropriate system (be it Licence, SSN, whatever) obviously doesn’t care about verification so all people accessing from their address ranges are classed adult by default until hooks are provided.

    I don’t see why this wouldn’t actually be precedent-setting and a lot of other adult internet services might want to be using such a service too. And it is ‘for the children’ with huge positive publicity for the respective governments, particularly the first few to implement it.

    Such a system does not need to involve seemingly-dodgy third party companies. It can be rolled out per-country as needed, it even allows for countries with non-18 ages of adulthood (let’s face it, the #18 is quite arbitrary).

  39. Ahzzmandius Werribee says:

    I simply can’t believe that you are spending the money and effort on this LL.

    Here’s my understanding of how you cover your corporate butt….

    Just add an “I am over and I attest to the accuracy of my contact information. ” web form to your sign-up process. Then if the account is bogus, you are covered so long as you actually respond to evidence you come across or are presented with that an account is fraudulent.

    You know full well that there are less invasive alternatives.

    Please, stop claiming that any 3rd party can guarantee the authenticity of your customer contact information any better than you can with diligent attention in speed and care spent on Abuse Reports. It simply can’t be done without having a staff member standing over the shoulder of each and every customer as they sign up and use the service.

    You, I, and everyone else knows that this is the truth. So why continue down this path to Big Brother(tm)?

    After all, didn’t Phillip Linden state at a Town Hall Meeting about a year ago that LindenLabs wanted the citizens of SecondLife to police themselves and handle their own disputes as much as possible with their own form of government?

    This most certainly is not heading in that stated direction of self governance, and I for one am extremely disappointed at the foolishness displayed by this “verification” exercise. If you feel that you must head towards a Big Brother setup, then SecondLife will not flourish and prosper in the ways that you wish it to.

    So please. I’m asking nicely as a year+ old avatar of SL. Don’t do this verification system. It’s insulting to me, you, and every customer of SecondLife. It’s as if you believe the world to be incapable of self governance, self control, maturity, and responsibility. You are punishing the majority that is honest and ethical for the crimes of the minority of users that are griefers, liars, fraudsters.

    It is not the way of the LindenLabs that we all grew up as avatars with in the past. It is the way of the dodo bird. The Internet has proven that letting go and dealing with violators as they are discovered is the only real answer just as the record companies are discovering that DRM isn’t the answer to protecting the artists. For this verification system is the same sort fo flawed and doomed answer as DRM.

    Sincerely,
    Ahzzmandius Werribee

    p.s.

    Do you intend to force every secondary grid that wishes to hook up to your’s into using this same system, or another equally onerous and flawed system? If so, you can forget about maintaining your status as The SecondLife Grid once OpenSim (or another unknown project) reaches critical mass in functionality. The Internet at large WILL rebel and a new, better, self governing grid will be born and LindenLabs will be left in the past. It has in the past against overreaching authentication schemes were imposed. It will again in whatever new medium is created. It may not happen right away, or even within the year, but it will eventually happen. I think you know this to all be true.

    I for one will be one of the first OpenSim systems on the Internet as soon as it can begin to compare to your systems (provided I can get my hands on a server to run it with and decent bandwidth!).

  40. Midnite Rambler says:

    This still does not address the issues for those who live in countries that require either Drivers Licence, or Passport for identification, and have neither of those.

    If we have neither we are given the option of sending a scanned copy of our Birth Certificate, and a Utility Bill to LL so they can verify us.

    This I will never do, as certainly here scanned copies can be notorised which is enough ID for anyone to use to steal your identity, as I know from bitter experience.

  41. Deltango Vale says:

    Why can’t LL understand that this is a really bad idea? Why do they continue to invest time and effort in pissing off their customers?

    I am NEVER going to use this age verification system. It stinks sixteen different ways to Sunday. It is awkward, crude, unreliable and – most importantly – serves no useful purpose. At the very best, it will generate anger and frustration. You can bet that if I spend $300+ per month in tier and suddenly cannot get into a shop or onto a piece of land because of this system, I am going to scream blue murder.

    What is it with you guys? What is this obsession you have with someone under 18 getting into the game? You left the door WIDE OPEN with the anonymous accounts for OVER A YEAR! Are you stupid? Now you saddle the community with this ridiculous system that everyone HATES and you can’t understand why we are HOPPING MAD?

    I have spoken recently with a BIG investor in SL who hauled out his money several months ago in absolute frustration with LL’s horrible customer service.

    For God’s sake, hire someone with brians who can manage this company before it all goes to hell.

  42. Day Oh says:

    YES, OTHER OPTIONS

  43. Pingback: Second Life age verification - beta is live : The Metaverse Journal

  44. Deltango Vale says:

    And I will NOT flag my land as Mature – ever!

  45. anonymouse1 says:

    Robin,

    The problem is the fact that Linden Lab has been not been forthcoming, until now, with detailed information about what Age Verification entails.

    Honestly, your posts a few months ago about “Trust” and full Identity Verification were upsetting to much of the community because it threatens to bring so much RL information into SL that it will make SL basically nothing more than a communications platform. Placing trust in someone is something that is done between two individuals and shouldn’t have a third party involved to act as the arbiter of what’s “true” or not. Declarations from Linden Lab that it is “optional” strikes a sour note within the community because that is what Linden Lab says anytime they force an unwanted feature onto the community at large.

    The problem is, indeed, one of trust. The issue is that we don’t really trust what you say anymore, not because we don’t like you, but because you’ve given us so many reasons not to. Your answers to direct questions regarding IDV and Age Verification have been either inept enough to be misleading or deliberately deceitful.

    Allow me to point out one of the issues. When you first made your posting regarding “Protecting our community” or “building trust” you said that it would be possible to “expose verified aspects of your identity.” What immediately pops to most people’s minds is a tab in your profile that displays this “verified” information about the RL person behind the avatar. In order to do this, Linden Lab *MUST* store some information on their servers. It is impossible, technically, to accomplish this without storing that information somewhere. I, for one, find this offensive and, while I don’t pretend to speak for anyone other than myself, I do believe that a large portion of the community also finds it offensive. I think that many people on SL just want someplace to have fun and to be their “better” selves, whatever that might be.

    The reason there is so much ire in the community is because you haven’t recanted any of your previous statements, so we are left wondering what you’re going to do in the future. Again, *we* don’t trust you.

    Robin, given that you are the person in charge of communications and given that the community no longer trusts you. I believe that you, personally, have a lot of work to do to prove yourself to us before we fully trust you again.

    Anony Mouse

  46. Michael Fairplay says:

    If parents are so concerned about what the kids are doing on the nbet they’d simply make themselves of what they were doing on the net so that hogwash doesn’t fly with me. As far as the insults to age players I thought harassment was against SL policy. but again you’re cherry picking and making up policy as you go along much as you’ve done with age play. It’s against no US law and you harass us about it but prostitution which is against US law is allowed to run rampant

  47. paybak epin says:

    o_O LOL this is great

  48. nahona says:

    Ok, Lindens i’m Age Verified, could someone explain why that’s does’nt work correctly in-world? oh btw your beautifull Release Candidate is full of bugs… *rofl*

    @ 40, About your post scriptum, keep your old 1.18.5.x or Windlight or any alternative viewer in a safe backup somewhere cause 1.18.6.0 RC is not able to log in an OpenSIM server, LL get ride of old login method and -loginuri parameter don’t work anymore !!

  49. Vixen Babii says:

    Yes, they will keep your information and use it to “accidently” sell to government officials who will later send the info to the IRS so they can tax you for anything you’ve ever bought or sold in SL…stay tuned for the next episode….

  50. A. Malaprop says:

    “if necessary we’ll look into other options to ensure that minors are not accessing Second Life”

    This is part of the problem right here. Nebulous language that contradicts yourself, because if this is to keep minors out of SL, validation cannot be voluntary. Unfortunately, as soon as accounts were opened up without any requirement for credit cards or any other identity source you opened the doors of SL to minors, regardless of the TOS.

    Especially troubling is the person saying his 14 year old niece was able to verify using this system. If it’s that broken, what use is it?

    I haven’t been able to easily find verification from Aristotle that they do not save data. Perhaps some of the issue could be eased by posting this where people are more able to see it.

  51. Vivienne says:

    @ 33 KittyCat Rosebud Says:

    “And yes,.. many Teens have PayPal accounts.”

    Kitty, even if it were “normal”, does PayPal run an additional “age verification” in order to prevent children to get access to adult material??

    No, the only logical reason for LL method in general is to prepeare the merging of the teen grid with the main grid.

    If age verification (in spite of all the critical issues listed on this blog), then age verifivation for the entire grid, not only for considered “adult” parts of this grid. The LL method will never work technically and will cause an even huger wave of annoying actions by those self-declared moralists.

  52. Deltango Vale says:

    @46

    Forgive a third post, but I am still furious with LL over the VAT issue.

    I do NOT trust LL anymore on anything.

    I will remain in SL because of the community of sane and interesting people I know there, but my second life is now overshadowed by a dark cloud of LL incompetence. What a drag.

  53. Stellerex Ah says:

    *Bangs Hands On Table* ITS A CONSPIRICY DAMNIT!!

    Nuff Said~~~

  54. Ric Mollor says:

    Once again. EVERY conversation, EVERY IM, EVERY purchase, EVERY movement, and EVERY action goes through THEIR servers. It would be trivial for Linden Labs to store this information FOREVER.

    Additionally, though you can create an account anonymously, Linden Labs probably keeps records of all logins and the IP addresses that they come from. The viewer sends data derived from the computers network card (MAC address) and hard drive (serial number) during each session.

    They already know who you are.

    The question is, have you EVER done ANYTHING in SL that you wouldn’t want to become public knowledge? Today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, or anytime in the future?

  55. Jaime Hocken says:

    Make it mandatory ASAP

  56. nahona says:

    ** The question is, have you EVER done ANYTHING in SL that you wouldn’t want to become public knowledge? Today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, or anytime in the future? **

    awww Damn, i’m a Stripper and i make money taking my virtual clothes off… and know you what… The whole world wide can know that, i had nothing to hide… mmm… *repeating slowly and seductivly* “nothing to hide ;)”

  57. Michael Timeless says:

    I can’t let this drop.

    Age verification IS the crux of many problems in second life. Until LL stopped requiring credit card information this really wasn’t a problem. IF you want to put this in perspective Robin let’s look at a real solution that can be implemented now.

    How about moving with the same speed that LL showed last week in trying to prevent the quicktime exploitation.

    Put up a similiar message tomorrow that halts ALL logins. Either a person put up a credit card or PayPal information or they do not get back into second life effective — IMMEDIATELY. Then send a simple letter to every VERIFIED PAYEE that the payments are being made to an ADULT ENTERTAINMENT VENUE. Specify that their payments are being made to a source of ADULT ENTERTAINMENT. It might be difficult for parents or anyone else to misconstrue what is taking place. Your lawyers I am sure can clean up the language to make it bulletproof under the laws of most countries. Let’s quit pussy footing around. In the last year the main source of entertainment has been reading this blog. I bought a sim and wanted to add to it. I CANNOT and WILL NOT buy anything else until you resolved three big questions that are not being answered.

    1). Age Verification we know it will become mandatory let’s just state it now
    2). Tier increase after 1Q2008 either yea or nay
    3). You vouchifying in a document that you will pay any costs incurred in identity theft traced back to the current age verification system.

    Otherwise Robin, and don’t take this personally, you might as well resign. YOUR community doesn’t believe you, you dictate, you don’t communicate and when an unpopular topic comes up it happens late at night and NO LINDENS, ESPECiaLLY you are around to discuss it.

    A large percentage of your clients are NOT on American PST if you don’t want to provide them or others who work to support their SL habit then get a night watchman/woman.

    Why not require only VERIFIED ACCOUNT HOLDERS to post to the blog. Or better yet, for one day. JUST ONE DAY open the blog to questions 1 question per person and then spend one DAY just answering those questions. If the questions are assinine then tell us they are assinine and state why. If you are the COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER – then communicate otherwise call yourself the PROPAGANDA minister and be done. (on that subject wasn’t Teriq Qusease of Iran hanged?)

  58. Cloud says:

    Why does a venue like the ADULT grid need to be protected from minors??? Does every outlet need to be made child safe because parents cannot control or educate their own children? Why must adults flag themselves, Tim @ 2, as pornographers because they engage in legal SIMULATED adult behavior?

    And nice to see LL is admitting they plan to cave to any Moral Majoprity laws country by country. Once again, individually or legislatively, freedom dies and griefers rule.

  59. mimi says:

    quoting from before posts:

    “YOU may have been assured they won’t store data, but WE have not. In the end we’re talking liability and contract law, and as such WE haven’t signed anything with Aristotle/Integrity and therefore have no guarantees. They can give you as many guarantees as they like, it’s not YOUR personal data at stake here… but if you go bankrupt, your TOS says that nobody can be held responsible for any data collected by Second Life. This effectively frees Aristotle/Integrity of all barriers to use our data, since they haven’t made an express agreement with us to the contrary. Can you address this issue?”

    Yes I woud like to see the contract also. You ask us to be 100% open about who we are so why don’t you be 100% open to us as well? Or give all all of us our own contract with Aristotele which assures us if they do collect our information we can sue them because they break their own contract?

    And I like to see that the TOS will be changed so that if Linden Labs merges OR go bankrupt none of our information will be given out – so in the case your contract all of a sudden doesn’t comes out to be 100% safe, at least it won’t make it legal for you to play with our information.

    We need 100% legal safety not just promises. Saying things in a blog won’t protect us legally.

  60. I would like to point out that the later half of last year an outsourced Linden gave out client information freely to myself concerning other SL residents. I then reported it to Linden Lab. The person in question was given a 2 weeks suspension and then put back into the work pool by the third party company.

    He gave information such as RL name, address, DOB, Linden balance and more. Even tough Linden Labs no longer has a contract with this particular company, I want to say that the possibility for abuse always exists, so yes we must all be cautious.

    If any of you would like to know more, please visit my blog http://mmobox.blogspot.com/

  61. Immerdar Fredriksson says:

    “Although previous global testing of the Integrity system with a smaller sample showed a nearly 80% success rate, broader implementation has been disappointing, with too many failures.”

    That “nearly 80%” number sounds very unimpressive. However, since you then say “…broader implementation has been disappointing, with too many failures.”…that, then, makes the sub-80% number sound respectable–at least, from your perspective.

    Perhaps, I’m interpreting this number incorrectly, but, if not… If Intergrity is accurate less than 80% of the time, then I don’t doubt you will have some under 18z on the main grid. What I think is worse is that you will force close to one fourth of all legitimate SL residents through some kind of wringer to “prove” their age.

    I mean, if you are going to insist on this from residents, you need to use a system that produces a whole lot better than “a nearly 80% success rate.”
    (for example, does this number also apply to Integrity’s success at purging personal data from its system after that “…one-time match. Period.”?)

  62. Jes Bergbahn says:

    Thank you Lindens, for pushing an ILLEGAL system onto my head.

    The second the sims I regular are forced to verification, the day I pull my 30$ a month contribution to the grid out! That day, I LEAVE SL.

    I’m not about to break the very laws of my own nation just to cater to your obviously ignorant method of self-regulation, especially as Aristotle DOES KEEP PERSONAL INFO ON FILE. Your claiming so makes me trust you even less as Aristotle already HAS been found saving personal data for later selling!

    So thank you, LL, thank you for destroying your own world.

  63. Missy Malaprop says:

    The only question I have not seen answered…. are we expected to use this right now, for real, even though its listed as a beta test? Or should we not flag out land cuz its still in beta… and wait for release?

  64. Wyald Woolley says:

    “We’ve been assured by them that they are in compliance with all relevant privacy laws”… I’ll bet they sold you a bridge and some Florida swamp land with that same assurance.

    My big issue is that LL leaves the door wide open to let minors into SL and expects each and every sim owner to shoulder the responsibility of flagging their land according to some nebulous “adult content” yardstick.

    The responsibility of LL is to guard the door and keep minors out: PERIOD. Anything less does not absolve them from their liability to maintain an ADULT business. They refuse to do their job as gatekeeper and are trying to lay it back on the sim owners, and it just ain’t gonna fly in court.

    …and don’t get me started on the ethics of the company they chose to verify the fraction of members that will get age verified.

  65. Vivienne says:

    @ 58

    “.. made to a source of ADULT ENTERTAINMENT.”

    Michael, guess why they try to make this “parcel flagging” nonsense reasonable? It o only to PREVENT the whole darned thing going adult. They want to open it for the Teens, for economical and PR reasons. This is not about “children protection” at all, it is another attempt to let the residents bleed for a task LL itself should be capable of. Imagine what will happen if a guy like Tim will discover a Giger sculpture on a non-flagged parcel??? Or a Balzac copy? Sheesshh, this will be fun…

  66. nika talaj says:

    Blog above: “Thus, there is no collecting, using, storing, or transferring of your personal information beyond the one-time match. Period. Certainly, you are not being asked to place your information in a database.”

    May 2007: “[10:12] Daniel Linden: it’s vaulted to provided a government-required audit trail for two years, but neither Linden or Integrity can access that data unless an audit is initiated.”

    Vaulting is impossible without storing the data somewhere, most likely in a third-party site in addition to Integrity. It won’t be accessed UNLESS some government agency requires it. So am I right in assuming that a person getting a divorce could subpoena or legally request avatar identity information (or better yet Homeland Security could) from Integrity now as well as SL, and expect to get it if it was still vaulted?

    Oh goodie.

    And another question: what verification mechanism does LL have in place to ensure that Integrity will not share the information gathered with its’ parent company, Aristotle? You say this confidentiality is contractually enforced. How will LL know if Integrity violates the contract? Or is LL simply blindly trusting them? How … sweet.

  67. Loretta Masukami says:

    Of all the options, it seems that LaeMiQian in post #39 has the best system.

    You really ought to try it.

    The other systems requiring residents to show a SSN or credit card number can be circumvented very simply. Almost any child can get a parent’s SSN or credit card number in a day or so. I knew my mother’s SSN when I was 11, and I wasn’t even trying to pull any stunts.

    I personally will not trust Aristotle with my SSN….UNLESS they sign a contract with ME to reimburse me 10x any losses or misappropriations or unpermitted profit-taking due to fraud, commercial misuse, or identity theft. I’m pretty sure they would never agree to such a contract.

  68. Ric M says:

    Robin,

    The problem with all of this is multi-fold, and what’s so frustrating is that it’s a problem Linden Labs is creating for itself.

    The core issue is that minors *might* run into pornographic materials on SL. However, there are millions, probably tens of millions, of dedicated porn sites where it’s not a matter of “maybe”, porn is their entire raison d’etre. Yet all of those sites require only a credit card or bank account as ‘age verification’. So, WHY is SL, a site with just a possibilty of a minor seeing porn, taking it upon itself to institute such far more draconian (and completely flawed) measures to verify age? It makes no logical sense at all, and the solution to all of this is glaringly obvious: If LL wants to offer FREE accounts, fine- but those accounts should be banned from adult flagged parcels. PAID accounts which by definition require age verification in the form on credit card or bank account are automatically ‘verified’ and allowed access to adult flagged parcels. Robin, if this form of verification is good enough for the genuine porn operators, it should be more the suffcient to cover LL.

    Concerning this whole system you’re using… Look, I’m a very long term (permanent) American expat. I travel constantly all over the world for my work. Do you have any idea how many countries there are with no funtional government? And you expect them to be able to ‘document verify’? This doesn’t just apply to disconnected third world countries- take Ukraine for instance. Kiev now has a higher per-captia internet connection rate than does Paris. Yet Ukraine has not had a functioning government for long time and I assure you there is no way on earth this Integrity company can verify anything there- and there are many many many other countries with the same story! Plenty of people with internet and money, but no organized central authorities. If Intergrity is telling Linden Labs that they can verify data in these places, they are flat out lying to you. This is such a common problem with American companies- they want to engage the World via the internet to do business, but they see everything through the prism of America and just assume “if it works here, it must work the same everywhere” and then try to apply American ‘norms’ to the rest of the planet.

    My Slovak girlfriend (who got me into SL in the first place) tried to verify the other day. Passport- failed. National ID card- failed. Birth ID #- failed. Me being an expat I KNOW your ‘Integrity’ friends will never be able to get that sorted (for sure there is no accessable data base for residency permits for them for verify against). So here we are, 2 still fairly new SL addicts, we’ve got 2 premium accounts now, 4 parcels of land, and 2 upstart businesses in SL… and then you drop this on us! Soon, neither of us will be able to enter any ‘adult’ flagged parcels, like we just a couple of children playing on the internet! I gave you my platunum business visa for god’s sake! But that’s not enough to prove I’m an ‘adult”. Wow.

    The technology of SL is amazing. What you guys are building is just incredible. But some of the managerial decisions I’ve already seen LL making in the short time I’ve been here… I don’t mean to sound so harsh, but frankly, they are of very questionable competence. Lab coat guys generally do not make good business managers. I think this is quite likely the problem we’re seeing here.

    Pleeeeease.. See the obvious and come up with a more rational idea. Intergrity is taking you (and us) for a ride.

    Thanks,

    Ric

  69. Contra Demonia says:

    Well, before I posted I thought I would actually try out the age verification to see how it works. I was able to use just the last 4 of my social, which is pretty common these days for lots of companies. It was simple, easy, painless, and actually involved a lot less personally identifiable information than most identity verifications I’ve seen.

    I’m not sure what the big deal is.

  70. FWord Utorid says:

    Please provide your mothers maiden name, to log into the pretend world where you are a monkey with three foreheads that farts jello flames.

    We now require fingerprints in order for you to buy a pulsing particle prim uterus.

    Linden Lab is your mother and father.

  71. Vivienne says:

    “I’m not sure what the big deal is.”

    A part of the big deal is that you will not have to verify that you are under 18 in order to access the non-flagged part of SL. You could be a potential “pornographer”, “pervert” or any other kind of abnormal trying to “poison” the Underaged, unrestricted.

    Kidding.

    But think of it. I am not against age verification, but the way LL does it does NOT contribute to the claimed aim, which is “protection of children” (IS IT, or did i miss something?)

  72. DeniseHoorn Slade says:

    Well, after all, age-verification is not enough. The discussion in public about minors in SL or minor-looking avatars in SL in association with adult-material, brings up new dioscussions and bad publicity whenever newspapers and tv-stations don’t have other bad news to report.

    So in my humble opinion it seems to be a good idea to make something like a optional “registration” possible, for example for child-avatars. Means: minor looking avis can become a “age-verificated linden-registrated child-avatar” with all consequences.
    Mean: those avatars can’t enter places with adult-material, watched by scanners which check out, if the avatar which enters the restricted area (not only mature-sim or parcel) is a registered child-avi or not. If so, then it’s asked to leave, otherwise it will ejected.
    And of course: once registrated, it’s static to avoid “age-hopping”. It might be a beginning, and might help to push up the reputation of Second Life in public…
    I talked to many child-avatars and they would support that option… what do you think about?

    DeniseHoorn Slade.

  73. @70 – you didn’t have much of a problem because of being a US citizen, and as such, Integrity has the bulk of US citizen’s details so their database is far more accurate.

    However, this doesn’t hold for non US citizens. First of all they want ENTIRE numbers – passport, driving license, ID card – not just the last four digits, and secondly in most of these countries they don’t have legal access to verify the validity of these details.

    I created and managed to get verified a nonexistent person, purely because I set up a facebook account with the details way back in March, that I used a few days ago. This person doesn’t exist, except in Facebook, but they were reckless enough to put certain identifiable details on the facebook system. Creating them as a new resident in Second Life, who then went through the age verification process with the exact same details that are ONLY stored in Facebook proved two things.

    Firstly, Integrity’s database DOES have to know you to verify you, and

    Secondly: The whole thing doesn’t work. My fictitious facebook person’s details only exist on that one profile. Strange that six months down the line, those exact same details are on Integrities database, and vaildate a non-existant person who has NEVER existed.

    I don’t know what assurances they’ve given you, Linden Labs, but they don’t seem to be worth anything. Is it any wonder the bulk of us aren’t prepared to take their assurances?

  74. blah blah blah… yes I had to provide the last 4 digits of my SSN; so what, the worst that can happen is my name and address gets sold to a mailing list so some company can waste postage and paper sending me junk that I can use to fill my recycle bin.

    A viewpoint from the USA.

    🙂
    WF

  75. Minolin says:

    Hmm, so very reassuring. Yet again, a LL spokesman assures us that the company in question has assured him. Not real comfy with that. Too many LL reps have stated one thing, then another, and in the end we residents are stuck with whatever half assed measure they at LL choose to throw at us.

    I’m not comfortable having this third party do squat for me, with me or with my info. True, a preteen could Google the hell out of most of us and get the relevant data supposedly required.

    I suppose my main lack of ease with this matter is simply that LL assures us all, while being unable to keep our info safe HERE. They assure us this third party is legit, etc., yet we have nothing in writing except their blithering.

    When LL can actually keep their word, uphold their TOS and follow through like a responsible company/business, respecting the tons of money consumers pour into this SL “game” then maybe we could learn to trust them and their decisions or choices. Thus far, their judgment sucks.

  76. Jessicka Graves says:

    So what I just read is…They supposedly don’t store information, as far as that has been claimed, yet SL is known for memory leaks, and a leak to where the information is being confirmed is entirely possible to open up.

    Voluntary status is for “right now” in which it WILL be implemented for certain countries, having mentioned the fact that it MAY be implemented for countries, practically implies it WILL be implemented, and I’m betting on Germany and the USA just to name two.

    And as far as “fine-tuning”, if they are a well-established company, and considered the best company to use, and their success rate is probably a C plus, B minus at best? Get an A plus, slim-to-no fault company, this 80%-ish b-s is pathetic. Find a new company, don’t fine tune it, because the fine-tuning you’ve done with SL has progressively made SL worse over the course of a year, all aboard the fail-boat, first class tickets for all.

  77. KittyCat Rosebud says:

    DeniseHoorn Slade–
    Not all people to play Child Avis would like your suggestion. However there are some people that have a Strictly Child Avatar Alt ( extra account) which would like to not be tricked into landing in an adult situation/area.

    The greatest concern here is Minors in RL getting on SL as Adult Avatars and haveing Online Sexual Activities with someone that later receives Jail Time, Fees, and a Lable for life.

  78. Ellen Boyd says:

    Many of you say “it’s the parents responsibility to keep their children off of the internet”. That being said, kids will STILL find a way to access websites if they want to. At my school they have blocked any website that isn’t education – my way around it? I used a proxy and BAM I was even on SL in class.

    Anyway, my point is – kids can and WILL find ways around their parents. They could simply go to a friends house or even sneak into SL while they are home alone and their parents would be oblivious. As a child, I even deleted cookie and wiped any evidence of any website I accessed that I knew I was not allowed to visit – kids are smarter than you think.

    While I do not agree with your decisions to trust Aristotle (at all infact), I do believe that something needs to be done because no matter HOW HARD parents try, their children will still access SL if they really wanted to.

    I understand that there are parents out there that really AREN’T vigilent and really do NOT take very good care of there children but, like my parents who used to breath down the back of my neck any moment they could, I had still managed to find MANY ways around them.

    …besides, you can sit there and blame the parents and even in the situations where it is the parents fault, the fact reminads that their kids are still accessing subject that is too mature for them and that is what needs to be stopped. It’s very sad that the parents of these children are not raising them “properly” but some one needs to stop them..

    am i making sense?

  79. Keiko Rau says:

    Aristotle *DO* retain your personal information relating to their age verification service – here is an excerpt from their privacy statement:

    “Personally identifiable information provided for purposes of age and identity verification to Aristotle and its Integrity unit is used only for that purpose, and is not transferred or retained, except as required by law.” (http://www.aristotle.com/content/view/31/152/)

    See that last part? “… except as required by law” They dont state which laws they have to comply with.

    This makes the question asked by @30 above particularly relevant, regarding the US Patriot Act:

    “that ANY collected data must be held for a time in case it is the subject of a DoJ information request”

    I dont know US law, but if he is right, and the PATRIOT act requires companies to retain this information, then Im afraid dear readers, that Linden Lab’s head of marketing has just given you more marketing spin yet again, and nothing more.

    And you probably believed it.

    I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for an answer to @30’s questions, which by the way, are very very good questions.

    Personally. I wont be verifying, and if for some remote reason I even actually consider it, I will be contacting my country’s government first, seeking their advice (Most countries have a passport hotline or similar) and Im fairly sure I know what they will say.

    I believe in keeping porn away from children, but this is not the way.

  80. nika talaj says:

    “blah blah blah… yes I had to provide the last 4 digits of my SSN; so what, the worst that can happen is my name and address gets sold to a mailing list so some company can waste postage and paper sending me junk that I can use to fill my recycle bin.

    A viewpoint from the USA.”
    Please note LL, even many of those who are not bothered by this policy assume that you are wrong in saying their data will be protected, and believe that the verification data they give you will be shared.

  81. Demoness Pharaoh says:

    Perhaps LL can answer one question for me. In all of the online environments I have, and do, participate in, many of which feature graphic violance (ie: blood, violence, beheadings, and occasional nudity), how come this is the only one implementing age verification?

    Any number of online games, such as WoW, Runescape, Eudemons, Guild Wars, Everquest, etc, etc, etc, feature mature content that childen under a certain age should not be exposed to. None of them have ever asked me for any kind of real life information.

    Simply put, I do not feel comfortable giving out my real life data for reasons of my own. If this means in the future I am no longer able to play SL, then I suppose that is fair enough. After all, just because LL looses a certain number of members, that doesn’t mean that the over all community isn’t better, correct?

    If LL wishes to continue this course of action, they do so to their own detriment. Age verification is not necessary, simply because it will in the long run only cause many community members to leave, and not prevent the very thing they claim it will prevent.

    Should minors wish to access pornographic material in SL, they will find a way to accomplish that. Nothing LL does will prevent that from happening.

    *shrugs*

    I suppose I best start packing up my things, because this will become a mandantory system, and only people who are allowed into the elite gated, pristine and puritanical world of SL will remain.

    Enjoy you barren landscape when that happens, cause it’s exactly what you will get.

  82. Anousjka says:

    Age verification ?
    Sure thats a welcome feature, hope it kicks those anoying griefers out of SL.

    i wonder however when LL will do something about Beastiality !!
    One must be dam sick to have sex with a dog or any other animal.
    Why arent the residents shouting about that ?
    If i recall corectly it’s even forbidden by LAW !

    Anyway LL, great job, 🙂

  83. Ellen Boyd says:

    p.s – sorry for the double comment – but I play as a child in the game and I DO NOT condone child pronography what so EVER. It’s VERY SAD however with all of the adult avi’s approaching mine with the intentions of taking advantage of me. As far as they know I’m a child. Now what would have happened if I actually was 10 years old and this man approached me?

  84. Jamie David says:

    There is no trust in Age Verification/IDV!!

    It verified with the Drivers License of a Known terrorist provided by The Department of Homeland Security’s own web site. Mohammed Atta was one of the Terrorists of 9/11 and he was verified as alive and now a user of SecondLife. Same goes for Tupac Shakur, Frank Sinatra, Anna Nicole Smith, Paris Hilton and many many others.

    Takes 30 seconds with a search of images.google.com and google.com for “Drivers License”, “Drivers Licence” or “passport” to find the information to bypass LindenLab/Aristotle’s Verification process. So those verified are as trustworthy as any stranger/hacker/kid that you meet on the street.

    The US States Attorney Generals in a Video on Aristotles own web page state that the number one Rule is “Do not give out personal information on the internet”. In that video there is a discussion of how the kids who are most vulnerable will find ways to bypass the system. So now that they are verified people will be less on the look out for them. They are now less safe!

    LindenLab has no idea of what ID was used to gain access as explained above. They just get a “Yes this person has verified”. It seems to me that Aristotle has no way of combating this. There are just too many ID’s, Drivers Licenses, passports on the internet for them to clear these identities out of their system.

    I was honestly shocked to see that the Department of Homeland Security would put up the image of a License and not cover/blank out the number and personal info. I was horrified that it worked with the Aristotle system and was so easy to verify.

    This system has been sold on developing trust of your fellow resident. What trust is there when a dead known terrorist can verify? When anyone who has a few brain cells can find a way to not give their precious ID to a provider of Voter information.

    There is the database provided by the US Social Security Service with millions of records of those who have passed away. There are those who are dumb enough to put a scan of their passport, drivers license (One was a cake with exact image of a newly acquired License, numbers address and DOB) on the web. They all pass the verification process. Dead, alive, famous or just dumb.

    Now the system has been corrupted. There is no way to go back and check for these records unless Aristotle is keeping records counter to what has been stated. Aristotle claim to vault everything for 2 years.

    I filed a support ticket just after the system was turned on for beta beta when I managed to verify with my avatar’s name and a totally made up address and ID number and got back a thank you for your concern. That account still has verified status little over a month later. I was being honest and warning the system but was shown how much the care is. None.

    Currently many international residents are handing over their ID’s and not getting verified. This I believe is because Aristotle do not have the information they claim to have. So those users have handed over information. LindenLab has encouraged this. “Try different ID’s, try older addresses.” Feeding more into the system. Endangering the resident with possible Identity Theft if Aristotle is hacked or throws out the printed records into the trash as so many companies do.

    Now I hear that one can fax in a copy of a utility bill to get verified. Oh that sounds smart. Anyone with a little photoshop work can make it say what ever they want. Zero security, zero trust and zero brains. Showing in my opinion that no one cares about protecting kids. Just getting those ID numbers.

    I am expecting in a few days that the system will be altered a little and those outside the US will find that they can verify. Just like budtv.com make up what ever you want and presto your are in because they do not have the records to verify against. Many countries have very strict privacy laws that would prohibit them from handing over to Aristotle their population’s data. Yet Aristotle claim on their web site to have all this wonderful data, even for Cuba which is still considered an enemy of the US.

    I encourage users to NOT to verify them selves and mostly not give any real information as it is putting them at possible risk and is not providing any form of security to protect kids or develop trust in our fellow residents. There is no need to get Verified in this beta situation they are testing. There has never been a clear explanation on whether or not Aristotle retains the data from attempts to verify.

    I would love to hear how LindenLab feel on this issue but I doubt very much that we will be told anything. Robin Linden promised discussions 2 months ago to try and calm us all down. Those discussions never came. Letters sent warning them of the holes were replied to with from letters saying thank you for your concern and the project rolled forward.

    All in all this has been a totally amateur attempt of installing a useless system that does nothing to protect kids at all. Nothing to provide users with trust in their fellow residents. Contracts were signed with out the basic questions asked. Now it is a legal dilemma. LindenLab are obliged to install the system even though it is flawed.

    International users should contact their governments and ask how and why their personal information was handed over to a US company? If it hasn’t then those countries should be very concerned that a US company is claiming to have it, making that government look very foolish. I have passed on all this to the press and hope that they will be able to do what we have not. Make LindenLab and Aristotle explain how this all works, how a Terrorist can get through and how does this protect kids.

  85. Vivienne says:

    “If i recall corectly it’s even forbidden by LAW”

    Yeah, in some parts of the world the writings of Thomas Jefferson are forbidden by LAW. One must be dam sick to read this.

  86. janeforyou Barbara says:

    When Aristotle has done the age verifi Linden Lab got there back free even if some kid logg on with dads/moms or sis cc card.

  87. Ciaran Laval says:

    Any chance of getting someone from Integrity to release a statement about this, rather than you doing it all the time Robin.

    Call me suspicious but I’d rather Integrity explained to me what they’re doing with the data and I read before that the data has to e vaulted in case of government audit, which suggests something is being stored.

  88. Thanks for the info, it must be hard as hell to try and comply with 80+ countries laws etc and I found the process rather simple and straight forward. I didint ahve to provide much apart from the details that I have already given Linden Labs, i.e my D.O.B, full name and address which I gave when i signed up..well that and the last 4 numebrs of an I.D. Card..really no big deal.

    Id just also like to say that I think gender verification would be a good idea as well 🙂 oh and thanks for making it free during the beta period.

    I really hope that this identity verification will cut down on greifers.

  89. Vincent Lucerne says:

    sooooo….when i verified my age a week or so ago…and it said verified…i’m all set now right? o.o;

  90. Neon Dingson says:

    Just tried to verify and still unable to. Is there any indication when this will be sorted out. If it is automatic checks that are taking place I fail to understand why it doesn’t work, unless for the last 25 plus years I have unknowingly been under 18.

  91. Demoness Pharaoh says:

    Is this a game or not?

    If so.. AV is a waste of all our times.

    If not.. then what is it?

  92. Vivienne says:

    “thanks for making it free during the beta period.”

    Did they state that it remains free when they switch to business? I doubt that. But you put your smiley in the right place, i suspect.

  93. Brett Finsbury says:

    glad to see some more clarification on this. Would like to see everyone on the same page. all verified. It is free, it is simple and like some one stated before “its an adult place. show your ID at the door.” also How do we know if a person we are dealing with is verified if it doesnt show up in their profile? I am not saying show a persons private information but a simple verified or non verified. Would really be helpful. You can do that already with payment on file. I think it is really necessary as long as there are people on the grid with unknown Identity’s.

  94. Vivienne says:

    “i think it is really necessary as long as there are people on the grid with unknown Identity’s.”

    And the teens will remain unverified and unknown identities? If “unknown identity´s” are the reason for this, well…

    By the way, I do not know Philip Linden. Never met him. Nor his alt.

  95. Demoness Pharaoh says:

    Yes, Brett. God knows none of us deserve to have a little annoynimty here. By God, our RL section should be fully fleshed out and contain out real names, ages, home addresses, phone numbers and whatever else people like you want displayed.

    I, for one, prefer to keep the details and facts of my real life OUT of just anybodies hands.

  96. Jessicka Graves says:

    @94

    The age limit is for smoking, not for a bar, you don’t need to show your ID to get into most places to buy cigarettes O_o

  97. nika talaj says:

    Just in case comments are cut off at 100, discussion can continue on this thread in the forums if you like:

    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=228788

  98. Uh Oh says:

    Thank you LL for this. Folks, LL has stepped up to the plate to protect minors from all the garbage that this user created world has produced. At the same time, LL has protected themselves from lawsuits arising from residents who turn a blind eye to those who visit their sick places.
    Its up to us now. Do the right thing, flag your pornographic sims and do YOUR part to keep your gross obscenities away from minors.

    Totally agree with you. Better yet get all that off of here.

  99. Vivienne says:

    @ 99

    “Do the right thing, flag your pornographic sims and do YOUR part to keep your gross obscenities away from minors.”

    Do the right thing and go to church.

  100. Jessicka Graves says:

    @99 If you don’t want adult theme’s, don’t play SL, you signed up for it, no gun to your head, get over it, and let the ones who DO want to play an adult game at it. Within some limitations of course (ageplay, and so forth), but without having to give our damn private information, which appears to be illegal…

  101. Vivienne says:

    @101

    No, he “plays” SL in order to find somthing he can complain on. After testing it´s impact on his soul, of course. Resistance is futile.

  102. Isabeau Imako says:

    Sunday, in the PM?! Wow, you guys are really dedicated, and I must say It’s appreciated. 🙂 I understand the reasoning behind age verification – after all, you don’t make the laws. We all have a say in our government policies (okay, maybe not on everything and in all countries, lol) but I will wait till all the wrinkles are ironed out. At the moment, I cannot trust this company ‘Aristotle’ -based in the US – to have access to my SIN. Maybe I never will… Since it is still in the voluntary stage, I’ll continue to log on and enjoy my time in SL. I don’t have any solutions to suggest as to how someone could possibly verify my age via the net without a 3rd party sniffing around my personal info, I just know that for the moment, I don’t feel comfortable doing it. I wish you luck and hope the eventual transition to a SL with forbidden zones will be smooth and painless.

    Isabeau

  103. Hiroaki says:

    Minor’s parents should make sure their kids aren’t watching 18+ movies and 18+ games.
    Age verification will not spread in SL!

  104. mimi says:

    OMG i read tupac shakur is registered too. The system is very faulty, any kid can verify.. yes many mature residents will leave because they do not want to register as tupac, nor trust Integrity.

    See http://gridgrind.com/

  105. Sean Heying says:

    > “Sunday, in the PM?! Wow, you guys are really dedicated, and I must say It’s appreciated.”

    Nuh, she just got from church and is afraid for her job, and rightly so, she should be fired, and more and more people are seeing this and joining the call.

    Time to step aside Robin, Let Torley have your job, he is a million times more professional.

  106. Demoness Pharaoh says:

    Ohh.. I just had a great idea….

    LL should wipe out all avatars, make us start fresh, and we have to put in our real life name and have it verified via scanned copy of our birth certificate as well as a current photograph so they can custom make our avatars.

    Wouldn’t that fix everything and make SL a perfect place?

  107. Pol McLaglen says:

    Under UK law it is illegal to make FAKE child porn, as well as real child porn. This could include pixelated avatars of children, but that has yet to be tested under law – and LL sure as hell doesn’t want to be involved when it is.

    As soon as I was able to verify my age I did. I use my passport number because it was the least likely identifier to be useful in identity theft. It did not hurt, it was over in seconds, and I just got on with it.

  108. Uh Oh says:

    “And the teens will remain unverified and unknown identities? ”

    to be safe. Yes.

  109. Sean Heying says:

    > “Under UK law it is illegal to make FAKE child porn,”

    Under UK law it is illegal to make photo composite fake porn, SL and other non photo-realistic are allowed. HOWEVER this is NOT to stop pixel kid sex, this is to stop REAL kids dressing up as Gorean Masters and owning a chain of slaves.

    Leave pixel kids out of this stupidity of Robins.

  110. Vivienne says:

    @ 103

    What are “forbidden zoes” good for if the real jerks have free access to the “non-forbidden” ones? All they have to to is to NOT verify and get ther victims on the open grid.

    Compare it to RL. Where, do you think, do 99 percent of all criminals meet their underaged victims? In restricted areas? No. The major part of real abuse of minors has its roots and takes place in completely unrestricted areas as family, school, even churches (yes, Tim aka Uh Oh).

    So. If LL would really want to contribute tp the protection of children (whatever this is) the only reasonable way to do so is to bar all minors from ALL Second Life. Additionally they should expand the Teen Grid and install some in-world police there which would have to watch for the really dangerous jerks, and establish an even more harsh identity verification THERE, not on the main grid.

    This alone would help keeping children away from the main grid as well as keeping the jerks away from the teen grid. But not “parcel flagging” or any other half hearted kind of spin.

  111. yuriko nishi says:

    i asked that 10 times before, still got no answer: when sl is for adults only, why make pg and adult sims/parcels?

  112. Neural says:

    Robin, have *you* signed up for the age verification?

    Also, while the “no information is stored/kept” line is reassuring, I would find it difficult to believe that even LL would just blindly trust another company’s word on something like this.

  113. Karyn says:

    Should stick with the credit card verification. That’s harder to beat then the system being tested. But it comes down to the government getting themselves into peoples business, especially when you can get RL money from selling Lindens.

    The other day I tried to buy a book about how the presidency works and the clerk asked for an ID, although I was paying cash. He said it was due to the Patroit Act, I declined and left.

  114. Pol McLaglen says:

    @112 – so that the over-moral minority CAN live in their nice little gated areas and those of us who want to live a more varied existence can do so in our mature rated areas.

    As for bestiality like those dogs and horses, it ain’t my bag, but I don’t wanna ban it just coz it doesn’t appeal to me. It isn’t actually illegal in most parts of the western world to have sexual relations with animals, unless it causes the animal suffering. I know that many US States do not prohibit bestiality so long as the animal is not harmed in any way. Do I wanna have anything to do with it? Hell no. But I don’t wanna be a kill joy and ban it either.

    And once that is banned, they will be coming after us BDSM lot next. That is where I will get my (virtual) guns out to defend my rights.

    And BTW, I am more heavily armed in SL than some small countries…

  115. Tepic Harlequin says:

    There are a couple of issues here, which do seem to be getting mixed.

    Firstly, when I signed up to SL, I was required to agree to a TOS, which included the requirement that I was over 18. Sad person that I am, I actually read the TOS before ticking the box! So either I am over 18, or I have lied to gain access, and it is my or my legal guardian’s responsibility, depending on individual countries laws.

    Second, people playing child AVs are very unlikely to be rl children, after all, who among you would have chosen as a child to play the same person in a game, if I remember, we would all be heroic, big, strong people! As has been pointed out, rl children are more likely to be playing adults in sl.

    Thirdly, if we are all, as is claimed in our agreeing to the TOS, over 18, then it does not matter what material we “stumble” across, it is not going to warp our child AV minds because the person behind the AV is NOT a child! The mature/pg ratings for land were to give adult gamers the choice not to enter areas where there may be material they would not like. Personally, I chose not to go to some areas of sl because I find the gaming there not to my taste.

    Whatever system of age verification you use, it WILL fail, because there is no universal id system, and children can always use their parents id (some parents will even put their own details in to keep the kids quiet!).

    I have tried to verify, it does not worry me too much, it is an unnecessary complication though – oh, my verification failed by the way, as I expected it to, as the id requested is NOT legally available in my country.

    Take care, and have fun!

  116. Pol McLaglen says:

    BTW, I burnt my morning toast reading all this…

  117. Jamie David says:

    If you want to keep your land verified only aside form loosing customers you have to keep all under 100 meters. SL’s verification seems to be limited to under 100 meters. So a sky box is accessible.

    John Aristotle Philips stated in a video on their web site that they want 50 cents per user and are trying to leverage Facebook and MySpace to use their system with SecondLife as an example.

    For all of you folk if there is one thing you should do before verifying it is to go look at http://www.aristotle.com and watch their PR video where they talk about using all their data to provide the best voter profile out. Remember that 2008 is a US election year and these folk make money selling data to anyone with a CreditCard.

    Folks. DO NOT TRY THE SYSTEM WITH YOUR REAL DATA. THERE IS NO GETTING IT BACK. Wait until well after the dust settles. Many here seem to feel that their identity information is already out there so hell what does one more place that has my SSN or something like that matter. If your identity gets stolen you are in a heap load of trouble. Years of credit issues and having to prove that you are the real you. The identity theft criminal is rarely caught because many a time they are over in Russia or some other country that does not come under the reach of the US law.

    There is key capture software that can be installied in your computer by a trojan virus that gives the hackers everything you type with out you knowing. On public computers it is possible for a previous user to install key capture. Economic times are getting harder and nasty people are finding more and more creative ways of getting money. Identity is the starting block.

    Think of what the bank requires for you to open an account? Ensure that you protect that data so that someone else does not open an account and get a credit card in your name. This is serious stuff. The news on Identity theft is getting worse and worse. There is no solution that is 100% and the bad folk will work very hard to expliot the smallest of cracks.

    DO NOT HAND OVER YOUR PERSONAL ID until you have assurance in writing that it is all above board. That your government/state feels that it is acceptable. Aristotle and LindenLab will not protect you or reimburse you if trouble arrises. The TOS even states that LL is not responsible for your personal data in the case the company is sold, goes bankrupt or closes. LindenLab is protected. Maybe even Aristotle is protected. You as user are not!

    LL has my creditCard. That has protections on it. I have one card now for LindenLab due to billing issues where they were using my account as their personal bank. 3 times I was double charged, 400$ each time. This has taken 6 months to clear up and has cost me lots of time dealing with banks and calling Linden support. I will not be reimbursed for my losses. Now we are clear and I have one card for SecondLife that gets just enough money transferred each month to cover my 2 sims.

    LindenLab do not have my Identity number, Drivers License or any other numbers that could be harmful and dangerous in the woring hands. I see no reason to hand it over to them. Through the CreditCard they have enough identity information to know where to find me. They call the Bank and presto.

    Read carefully what Keiko wrote. LindenLab says one thing, Aristotle are vague and the US Law requires otherwise. Protect your self as no one else will.

  118. Prodigal Maeterlinck says:

    I’ve tried the verification process, and I can confirm for myself it’s not particularly intrusive as I’d thought. The information required is matched against what Integrity has already mined, so I wasn’t telling them anything they don’t already know, much as it chagrins me. The information I had to give was scant, not very useful, and very much out of date. It would not have been difficult for a 13-year-old to falsify all data and get verified, far easier than falsifying or stealing a CC # with matching name and billing zip code.

    Perhaps this IDV system can, eventually, almost adequately take the place of simply checking CC info for ALL accounts, but not until after a expense of time and money for a less desirable solution than one that didn’t cost you. Atm Integrity still has data-availability issues to verify international adults, and those international adults still have legal issues with supplying the data required for that verification.

    Hello? Has this been repeated enough? Let me put it in boldface.

    Integrity STILL has data-availability ISSUES to verify international adults, and those international adults still have LEGAL ISSUES with supplying the data required for that verification.

    This doesn’t make it easy to count on business with those cultures who DON’T have the gutless, tightass moralistic issues that seem to prevail in America.

  119. Flack Quartermass says:

    If LindenLab’s flag data is destroyed/corrupted (hypothetically), we’ll all have to resend our private data to Integrity/Aristotle again to be re-verified? If not, they’re retaining *something*.

    Integrity’s Cosmos database consisting of the following:
    “Aristotle’s Integrity maintains critical background data for individuals in over 150 countries. Available data sets may include (1) full name, (2) full address, (3) year of birth, (4) phone number (when available) and (5) cell phone number (when available).”

    Their retained information won’t change AT ALL by us submitting to this “age verification” process?

    Our private data goes there, it either marries up to the data they have or doesn’t, if it does, it sends a “Y” to Lindenlab with zero change in the data retained by Integrity/Aristotle?

    If there’s network issues between Integrity/Aristotle and LindenLab during the transmission of the flag, will I have to resend my vital data again? Because if that isn’t the case, they’re retaining *something*.

    The Privacy policy of Integrity is pretty sparing with information, it doesn’t explain whether or not a historical file is retained, whether non-vital but cross-reference-able data is retained (like a Lindenlab age verification flag associated with their pre-existing data on me), or whether they create internal keys for each submission, or whether they retain the “flag” success or failure.

    This company sells information to governments and political groups (it advertises it), you should not be surprised that quite a few folks are, at best, skeptical.

  120. waterstar eilde says:

    @ 2, @ 99 and a few others in between – it’s not enough we have to put up with the holier-than-thou do-gooders banging on the RL door and foisting their opinions on the rest of us – now we have to put up with them trying to control our SL imaginations.

    For goodness’ sake, what happened to ‘live and let live’? Oh sorry, I forgot – that’s a one-sided belief, and not the province of the moral minority, which prefers ‘do as I say’ and appears to be incapable of comprehending the difference between fantasy and reality.

    This farcical ‘verification’ aside, the more SL gets like RL, the less attractive it sadly becomes.

  121. U M says:

    The sad part is there are many many under age inthe game. But wil it get ride of them? Wel maybe a few but mostly not. If they lasted this long inthe game they be here even after this mess. Atleast 1/3 of the real population could be (More likey) be under 18 years old. A scary number, but go vist any sex club, or strip club on sl you see more then you care to believe. Its nowonder LL is finally doing this check.

  122. Vivienne says:

    @122

    “At least 1/3 of the real population could be (More likey) be under 18 years old.”

    No. At least 100 % COULD be under 18.

  123. Uh Oh says:

    “118 Jamie David Says:

    December 10th, 2007 at 12:20 AM PST
    If you want to keep your land verified only aside form loosing customers you have to keep all under 100 meters. SL’s verification seems to be limited to under 100 meters. So a sky box is accessible. ”

    Better raise the ban to 800m.

  124. Vivienne says:

    @124

    “Better raise the ban to 800m.”

    Why? I still could rez my Mosque.

  125. I am all for verification.

    I just want to see the system set up so that it’s just as easy for me to verify as it would be if I were back home right now.

    Submitted ticket(s) about this issue (though even that has been a pain)! Hope that this problem is remedied while it’s still in beta!

  126. Windsweptgold Wopat says:

    I have filled out the form and all is done. I am not worried about my info being given to others if it does and i am spammed with junk email my spam guard will take care of it. I hope all adult areas will be flaged to stop not only the children coming in but also the alts that have nothing better to do than attack the grid. As LL says it is volentary YOUR choice if you dont want to do it dont .

  127. Demoness Pharaoh says:

    I chose not to do it.

    Does this mean I am no longer allowed the same rights in SL as those who do?

  128. nahona says:

    @124 First flying peoples, not only avatar but people using flying vehicle are going to complain if the ban raise up, Second Hoppyer -> those who use Hoppy Pay hud to make some L$ are going to complain too, Third the maximal Z in cordinates can be used in map to TP is 768 (1.5 x X or Y cordinates sim size)

  129. nahona says:

    sorry mistake, 1.5x max view option, 3x X or Y cordinates sim size.

  130. Sling Trebuchet says:

    Why is the verification system asking for ‘Required’ ID data that is not available to them?
    They can’t match whatever ID info I might enter, so why even ask for it?

    In Ireland, even our own insurance companies don’t have our driver licence numbers unless we volunteer them. None of the ID info is on public record.
    Even our addresses are unavailable from the Electoral Register when we opt out of publication – and a lot of us do that.

    I understand that much of the same applies in many European countries.

    It’s clear from posting in blog and forums that Integrity have data that is years out of date. That’s not going to be fixed anytime soon.

    “— is that no data is being taken, retained or stored. Rather, an automated check is done at the point of contact, and all data is then purged. Thus, there is no collecting, using, storing, or transferring of your personal information beyond the one-time match. Period. ”
    That’s a complete contradiction of everything said up until now.
    The old story was that the information would be stored in a Data Vault and would only be released under a court order.

    Have Aristotle/Integrity changed their system?
    IF they are not storing the data, how on earth can they defend themselves in a civil action?

    Aritotle: “This entity submitted ID data that matched our database as being over 18 years old”
    Lawyer: “What ID data did they submit?”
    Aristotle: ” We don’t know”.

    Hello? Hello?
    Don’t be ridiculous.
    Don’t insult our intelligence.

  131. blackcrow6667 Garmes says:

    Well, if they really want this in out of a genuine concern for everyone (and of course, assuming everyone is a minor until verified) they should then, by this logic, restrict all non-verified users the ability to purchase Lindens because of course, we cannot be a credit card used wasn’t stolen or used without parental permission, and LL surely doesn’t want endorse this sort of thing. 😛

  132. U M says:

    This is a serious matter, anyone thats been inthe game long enough knows there are many under 18 year olds in the game. Some even repling in this blog.

  133. Lamorna Proctor says:

    Just out of interest, I tried entering my details without submitting them. I am in the UK, so one of the things I had enter was by UK postcode. Unfortunately, the field on the form only accepts 5 characters, so it is impossible for me or anyone else in the UK to enter their postcode.

    Once again, another instance of LL assuming that everyone in the world is in the US.

  134. Vivienne says:

    “Once again, another instance of LL assuming that everyone in the world is in the US.”

    Not if it comes to billing and VAT. This works wonderful.

  135. Jessicka Graves says:

    U M, seriously, you (thus-far) have no viable proof of your claims, yet seem to keep harping on what you don’t know. While Identity theft, use of personal information for political gains, so on and so forth are very real, provable (not by me, but it’s a fairly known fact), and should be more focused on. Even though the claims of LL saying that this half-wit company that has out-dated information? Doesn’t provide an even remotely acceptable amount of service? Allows and accepts people that are DEAD?

    Indeed U M, this is a serious matter, but not for what you think it is, so get off your soap box and back-up your claim with facts :\

  136. Sumiko Yokosuka says:

    Great discussion everyone.

    But the fact remains that LL is still punishing adults for the unwillingness of parents to police their children, which is patently unfair. You are, in effect, demanding that the adult SL users be de facto babysitters for other people’s offspring, which is ridiculous.

    In addition, I can access free porn of all descriptions anytime I want. Those sites usually just have a disclaimer at the beginning stating that the user of the site is testifying that he/she is an adult. That, to me, seems to be the best solution for LL. You can even have a popup at each login that says, “by pressing this button I hereby testify I am over the age of 18.” That can be coupled with completely separating the software for the teen sites (and interesting that LL has yet to insist that children verify they are such and not predators playing teenagers in order to gain the trust of juvenile SL users). That way, you have two exclusive systems and never the twain meeting. If a teen chooses to download the SL adult software, that is on him and those who raised the dishonest little brat and not on the bystanders who make up the adult membership of SL.

    There is also the issue of SL residents who come from civilized democracies having to now be affected by the often arbitrary and shortsighted impulses of governments who have yet to join modernity or who impose a big brother-like regime on their populations. Come on LL, you gotta write those folks off. Otherwise, what you are doing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    As I have said before, I love SL and the people who participate in it and have calmly put up with its technical quirks because I recognize that not only is it an evolving technology, but that the Lindens, by and large, are attempting to act in an above board fashion. They are good folks. But this age verification thing is wrongheaded and I hope they reconsider it. I strictly limit the use of my credit cards and identity documents because of the identify theft threat. So even with the somewhat dubious assurances as to the disposition of the data, I will leave SL behind if I can’t access the sims I enjoy playing on. It just isn’t worth using it if I have to expose my identity and with the consequences that could entail.

  137. U M says:

    Sorry I don`t understand your slang. But really why do you care? Anyone with a civcl way of thinking when going into those locations sex clubs, strip club etc. Are loaded with under 18. Nobody likes the believe it but why close your eyes to the facts. You think i would post people names or report them? Oh please……..

  138. Jessicka Graves says:

    Close my eyes to the facts? What facts? Give me fa- oh right, you don’t have any. Being 18 doesn’t define maturity, and you don’t have their personal information (< said with little doubt), so you’re just stabbing in the dark in hopes that you may be right once…

  139. nomoresecrets says:

    Age-Verification will not work to European Residents.

    Thats a fact.

    So find another system to verify.

  140. DeniseHoorn Slade says:

    @KittyCat Rosebud:
    So I said it’s optional… 🙂

    @all: I can’t really understand the discussion on AV. Everyone of us knows, that the adult-grid is for ADULTS, not for minors who want to play adults.
    Some say it’s on the parents to watch what their kiddos do. Sure, it is. But do you really think, that you _can_ watch the actions of your kiddos all the time? I am parent and can tell you: You can’t!!

    Second: in most countries in this world (I think in the US, too) you are responsable for the material you publish. Means: in this case SL is responsable first for all things residents publish in SL (I dunno about the laws exactly, please correct me politely if I’m wrong). And if SL can’t say who was the one, who is the creator of unlegal things, so they stand first in line for the attourney… 🙂
    So what’s the problem? When we want to visit real hardcore-sex-sites then we agree with the AV there. And in SL we ALL agreed to the TOS when logging in first. And the TOS said for the adult-grid: You have to be an adult in the meaning of law.
    So it IS the right of SL to check that by AV. They don’t do it at the moment because they don’t know how.

    And last: everyone of us got to know what the public opinion says on SL. A place of those who have many many problems with the society… lol. And as long as public finds a story in child-abuse in SL (never mind if the “kids” are pixel-people or not) they will report about it and all of us residents must be of the same cathegory.
    _I_ WON’T be one of those, I want to be a resident of a world, that tries ALL to make sure, that this world can be one of harmony, phantasy and fun. Many of us have land in it, some have complete estate, most have left much money in SL and are not interested to loose it.
    If LL and the residents are not able to use that world in a way the law allows, it’s in danger to be closed one day! So think about…

    Denise

  141. Vivienne says:

    .”You think i would post people names or report them? Oh please……..”

    By taking a “closer look” at the font of the letters you typed i decide hereby you are clearly under 18 and call this a fact. But don´t worry, i won´t report you.

  142. U M says:

    Not only are you wasting blog space, what is worse you have to point prove there for…..I worry unlike some of these blog trolls because people.

  143. Matthew Dowd says:

    A blog post is not really a sufficient guarantee over the privacy issues. The fact that LL takes full responsibility and liability to ensure that no data used in age verification is stored by itself or any third parties needs to be clearly stated in the T&S.

    Matthew

  144. Jessicka Graves says:

    People ARE worrying, but for legit reasons, like having their private information stolen, abused, or used, just to prove that they’re an adult for a bloody game. You’re worried about some 17 year-old seeing a naked woman, priorities my dear, priorities. (And to really say that anyone here is wasting blog-space, that’s off topic >.> which is against the rules.)

  145. Fellatione Aabye says:

    QUOTE … which we think makes a big difference in evaluating safety and compliance — is that no data is being taken, retained or stored. Rather, an automated check is done at the point of contact, and all data is then purged. UNQUOTE

    Dearest Robin are you realy believing those words you typed????
    CAN YOU GIVE PROVE TO US .. as if a company like Arsitotle/Integrety does not retain our “so called” “voluntary” disclosures of our ID … OR are you just believing blindly what that company tells ????

    QUOTE …. However, there is no assurance that either feature will always be voluntary for all Second Life Residents. It’s possible, for example, that we could be required at some point to make one of these features mandatory for the citizens of a specific country. UNQUOTE

    Dearest Robin, to me as European and Belgian Citizen …. sounds your statement like “DISCRIMINATION” or is the ultimate goal TO GET RID of all foreign nationalites … ?????? Nationalties who are more critic about everything Than the US Citizen.

    We all read and signed the TOS …. So we know that Second Life is claimed to be a 18+ platform … and agreed upon that too …. OR are you also going to contradict your own Company TOS ???????

    And as for my Credit Card … You will never get that … sorry to say … But on that point I don t trust Linden Labs …. at all …. (as they are working with a ‘political’ company as Aristotle/Integrity .. Linden could as well sell all those collected data … for lots of money)

  146. MrLunk Voom says:

    PLEASE INFOM ME…

    Where I can find my Governments rules about intrnet !
    you say you spoke to european goverments…
    so lets hear what Holland had to say please …

    And I think thee are more peeps here that will want the same awnsers from their countries governments…

    Greetz,
    MrLunk Voom
    http://slurl.com/secondlife/Cryophile/159/221/31
    http://www.cannacabanna.nl

  147. scruffy says:

    I’m from the UK. On attempting to age-verify, the options given for ID type are passport and driver’s license; and to proceed I am obliged to “…consent to its verification against public records or government-issued identification”.

    UK government agencies, however, do not authorise private companies to access that data (unless they are involved in a public/private partnership – Aristotle are not).

    So, either Aristotle are planning to illegally access UK government data, or they don’t plan to verify the information i give them. Neither is entirely encouraging is it?

  148. Vivienne says:

    @ Denise

    “If LL and the residents are not able to use that world in a way the law allows, it’s in danger to be closed one day! So think about…”

    As far as i know there is no immediate legal need for age verification. LL tries to polish up image. If they want age verification, they can easily it by using credit card/PayPal Information and restrict the grid generally. The entire adult industry does work this way, so it can´t be wrong.

    But what they do is, not only in my opinion, sheer nonsense (for a LOT of reasons) and endangers the existance of SL much more than any bunch of right wing german TV “journalists” reporting some manipulated misinformation.

  149. -N/A- says:

    I don’t mind at this point in verifying my SL Loon, but…

    How easy do you think its for a underage kid to grab the drivers license from theyr parents at the middle of the night and just plotting that in?
    kids can be freggin sneaky, we all were when we were kids.

    But I wonder about if Jane Doe verityed her main SL Loon and then vertifyes her ALT Loon and even ALT-ALT-ALT-ALT-ALT-ALT Loon, how safe is this for her ALT or ALTS not bein seen from others SL Residents?
    If I had/have one alt I would NOT like ppl to see who my alt is.
    And LL should NOT give out who belongs to who.

    And not least some dumbass ghosting the age vertify page and can steal the info with that?
    It has happend in my contry a person loosing over 10000USD after some dumbass had cloned and made a identical site that copyed his/hers RL Bank account info, bcuz the site wasnt secure enuff.

    Or else Im all up for age vertify, its bloody time that the underage brats get locked outa the mature regions and stop griefing.

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