Second Life Havok4 Beta Preview Refresh with New Fixes (2007-11-29)

The Second Life Havok4 Beta Preview has been refreshed with another set of issue resolutions in place, including:

DEV-6010: linked tori fall through heightfield and are ejected off-world
DEV-5352: dragged physical objects have intertia
DEV-5354: avatar sits on wrong side of box
DEV-432: sitting on any face other that top of box will fail
DEV-6085: put megaprims back into Havok4 build (note that any megaprims larger than 256m square will be forced down to 256m per side)
DEV-6393: objects are boxified all the time
DEV-6407: a kart set to physical reduces sim FPS from 45 to 35
DEV-6399: sitting on non-square objects sits you inside the object (concave seating surfaces)
DEV-6492: attachment position changes due to scaling are not saved

For information about the Havok4 Beta Preview, with ideas on what to test, please see the original blog post here:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/09/28/havok4-is-here-on-the-beta-grid/

In addition, there is an wiki that provides detailed information about the Havok4 project as well as detailed information about the new linkability rules:
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Havok_4_Beta_Home

We are holding regular office hours to review your experiences with the Havok4 Beta Preview. Our office hours are posted here:
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Regular_Havok4_Office_Hours_In-World

Regards,

Sidewinder Linden
Program Manager

PLEASE keep blog comments on this post on-topic for the Havok4 beta test process – thanks!

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Bugs & Fixes, Preview Grid. Bookmark the permalink.

28 Responses to Second Life Havok4 Beta Preview Refresh with New Fixes (2007-11-29)

  1. Argent Stonecutter says:

    What does “(note that any megaprims larger than 256m square will be forced down to 256m per side)” mean, precisely? megaprims that don’t fit into a 265m cube?

  2. Blinders Off says:

    Hey, read with interest regarding megaprims.

    I very much hope that with Havok 4, LL changes the default prim limitation from 10m to 256m (or at least 64m). That would be absolutely fantastic! Builders will bless you. 🙂

  3. Ben says:

    @1 it means that a value of over 256 on any side of any object will be reduced to 256.

  4. U M says:

    WOW in the mess you still BEta Testing Havok4? This is good news!

  5. Gray Beam says:

    >DEV-6407: a kart set to physical reduces sim FPS from 45 to 35

    Poor babies. I am doing really, really well to get even 10-12 FPS. Hmmm, wonder what I am doing wrong……..

  6. AndrewLinden says:

    One thing that has changed in Havok4 recentlyl is the avatar sit behavior. It now tries very hard to sit on an edge near where you actually click. Anyone who cares about the avatar sit behavior feature should log on and try it out. I’m interested in hearing if it is an improvement or should be scrapped.

  7. Drake Bacon says:

    I didn’t see DEV-6085 in the JIRA, so I’m wondering what the rules will be on mega-prims now.

  8. Andrew Linden says:

    @7 Woops, Joel published the numbers for the internal jira bugs. Those jira items are not browsable by the public, and most of them are not reflected by corresponding items in the public jira (jira.secondlife.com). You’re going to have to go off of the terse and sometimes uninformative sometimes incorrect titles provided.

    The rules fore megaprims in Havok4 are: if you rez a megaprim… any and all sides larger than 256 meters will be clamped to 256 meters.

  9. Bryon Ruxton says:

    Andrew, I think everybody got that part. What’s people are and will be asking is:
    Should it be read as an official statement that LL will continue ‘live and let live’ any mega prim of 256 and under from here as a follow up on “The Big Prim Problem” blog ? It sounds very much like but it’s not clearly formalized…

  10. Drake Bacon says:

    @8 But no rules on making them?

  11. Andrew Linden says:

    I’ve got a plan for megaprims. As far as I know no one else has a better plan. That said, there is as yet no consensus on my plan, so there has not been an official endorsement of it. Nevertheless I’ve announced my plan to the public: I’ve outlined it in a few forum posts and in my office hours, transcripts of which can be found via this link: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andrew_Linden

    My plan for my megaprim plan is to implement it in easy to swallow parts, sometime after Havok4 is done. Some of the parts are not obviously about megaprims, but I consider them pre-requisites for fixing megaprims “right”, and they are good features so I’ll probably be allowed to implement them on their own merits. Eventually the final solution to megaprims will be obvious and the the last part (megaprim liberation) will simply be the Right Thing to do.

  12. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @7 Drake; All of these bugs were internally reported (I just went back and checked) so they were not originally on the public jira and thus have no public jira ID’s. If there are questions about specific ones just ask…

    Sidewinder

  13. Sean Heying says:

    Eventual megaprim liberation over a number of steps, clamped to 256M sounds cool. I like that existing > 256M megaprims can stay too… until they are accidentally deleted. 😉

    One thing with sitting (and I will be jumping in to look at these changes) how does it differ to camering in real close to the prim and sitting on target that you can do on the main grid? Is it just a simpler way for newbs to sit on the side they click on?

    Can sitting be improved even more, made more precise, so that you sit in exactly the position you have right clicked on no matter where your camera view is?

  14. Creem says:

    Is it generally frowned upon to test the beta grid using a firstlook viewer (maybe bug issues could get mixed up)? Otherwise, the combination of a beta grid and unstable viewer helps us beta test more efficiently 🙂

    For those who haven’t tried it, you can run any recent SL client (including the windlight series) by running SL with “-loginuri https://login.aditi.lindenlab.com/cgi-bin/login.cgi

  15. Sidewinder Linden says:

    @14 Creem: You’ve correctly pointed to the primary issue with combining FirstLook viewers and beta grid testing – confounding the issues. It would be fine to give it a try, but please verify any bug with the beta grid viewer before posting, and let us know whether it shows up with one or both viewers, so that we know where to look for the problem, ok? 🙂 In general, not using a FirstLook is easier on everyone involved, since FirstLook viewers still have their own set of “to-be-fixed oddities”. I suspect, since Havok4 is a server-side only update, that you will not find inter-dependencies this way – but it is I suppose possible.

    Regards,

    Sidewinder

  16. Creem says:

    @15:

    Thanks for the reply. I did some vehicle testing in the past hour, and while I haven’t found any bugs that I thought might be confused between the service and the viewer, the frequent crashing was enough to make me reconsider my double-beta plan. 😥 One beta at a time is enough for this resident after all!

  17. Blinders Off says:

    Regarding the megaprim concept, here is why I am for megaprims up to 256m (or at least 64m):

    * It is faster to render a 60x60m single-prim floor than it is to render a 60×60 36-prim floor.

    * It saves prim usage.

    * It’s faster to build with such.

    * It enables builders to do things they have not been able to do before (such as make a “dome environment” without using prims out the wazoo).

    * It allows sims to set multi-level environments (by using a 256m base prim)

    etc etc etc. The reasons why to allow megaprims are far, far greater than the single, arbitrary reason to not do so: griefers will use them. (how often do we see griefers use the megaprims that exist? And even if they do so from time to time, should builders be slighted just because some childish goofball has an attitude problem?)

    MEGAPRIMS. GOTTA LOVE ‘EM. ;D

    Builders will bless you.

  18. Darien Caldwell says:

    For those who want an easy to digest summary of Andrew’s plan, here it is, pulled from his forum posts:

    “Here’s the deal on megaprims.

    There is disagreement within LL about what to do about them. There is a “destroy all megaprims” (DAMP) army in LL (of which I am Captain) and there is a “but megaprims are cool” BMPAC resistance militia which far outnumbers the army of DAMPness.

    I’ve got some anti-megaprim nukes in my current project’s sandbox and I’ve been making noise within LL about shipping them, but the project isn’t going to get off the ground while the BMPAC controls the Governance team, QA department, and Deployment forces. As such, I’ve sued for a peace plan which is as follows:

    Megaprims will remain in a semi-broken state indefinitely. We won’t be making megaprims an officially supported feature until we can “solve them right”. Solving them right means enforcing the access permissions of parcels — preventing objects from parcel A from overlapping on parcel B if the owner of parcel B doesn’t want them there. This is a Big Project, so I’m going to be breaking it up into Smaller Projects that will roll out in the following order:

    (1) Death to all megaprims larger than 256 meters on a side (the BMPAC forces don’t think these megaprims are cool).

    (2) Allow parcel owners to manually move out or return objects that overlap their parcels.

    (3) Pre-emptively disallow object placements that would violate parcel access permissions.

    (4) Provide some sort of UI feedback that alerts Residents when an object placement will fail.

    A semi related project that will be required by stage (2) is to give sculptie objects a better collison approximation shape.”

  19. Tegg B says:

    “Blinders Off Says: I very much hope that with Havok 4, LL changes the default prim limitation from 10m to 256m (or at least 64m). That would be absolutely fantastic! Builders will bless you.”

    The big prob;em I see with this is noobs rezzing 64m spheres everywhere. I think there should perhaps be a verifucation or avatar age limit to use over 10m or only able to rez on your own land.
    How about continually replicating 64m Banana phones, Bill Cosby’s, SuperMarios and Ninja Turtles for griefing?

  20. Bry says:

    Thank you for the updates on the state of megaprims. Sounds like a plan. I root for the megaprims liberation. Extending my gratitude and support to the BMPAC resistance militia. 🙂

  21. Ryozu Yamamoto says:

    Sorry I haven’t been to the last few office hours. Real life struck, and I’ve been without internet during a move.

    It just kind of struck me that, after megaprim liberation is a reality, perhaps it would be a good idea to restrict setting objects dynamic (physical) to prims larger than a certain size should be restricted?

  22. Zi Ree says:

    I absolutely love the megaprim plan. “Returning or moving parcel overlapping prims” is one of the pieces I like most about it. This will in fact deal wit a lot of issues at the same time, not only megaprims. Builders will be glad to have big prims for houses or sim levels. Great concept, I hope you guys can implement it as soon as Havok4 is out of the beta stage 🙂

  23. Prim Oversize says:

    Thanx Thanx Thanx for your rather builder friendly & griefer unfriendly handling of big prims…

    That´s as far as i can see the only good news from LL since quite some time….If I wouldn´t be so upset about the uselessness of the new search and the already starting grid slow downs and failures through windlight, i would actually have a happy start into my sl day…

    Can´t have everyting i guess
    Good weekend

  24. Drake Bacon says:

    @11 I’ll have to attend the next Thursday office hour. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Andrew_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_10_23 has what I’ll call the “server/policy side” plan. I’m more thinking client side — how they will be created and manipulated.

  25. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    Thanx Andrew for the news that LL have at long last accepted the use of megaprims.
    I had visions of armies of builders storming out of SL in disgust if these useful objects had been banned.
    Art & sculpture galleries, in particular, depend on megaprims to encourage free expression by their artists.
    But now that LL have sanctioned their use will they be introducing a set of megaprims for use by the SL community that overcome the problems of ‘collision fields’ – and will they be addressing the perceived lag that occurs in their vicinity?
    Gene Replacement’s immensely popular and ubiquitous megaprims have served their useful purposes, but many builders now regard them as pretty crude and it’s time we had a set of more SL-friendly megaprims.
    If LL don’t want to help the community with this (due to the fact that they probably don’t want to encourage their usage) perhaps someone out there has a ‘new generation’ of megaprims just waiting to be widely distributed? If so, you can bring your creations out of hiding now – you have LL’s grudging approval!

  26. les says:

    Sidewinder…what is the latest build number? When i download Second Life 1-18-3-70780 Beta Havok Setup.exe (from beta download page) and try to install it tells me I have this version already installed.

    ***Please clarify. Must test!

    As to mega prims:

    Klaatu Congrejo says – “Thanx Andrew for the news that LL have at long last accepted the use of megaprims.”

    I think Andrew said, “there is as yet no consensus on my plan, so there has not been an official endorsement of it”.

    I hate the 10m limit, but on mainland I would rather that then a bunch of people dropping 256m prims on 512m land as you can do now. If he gets it possible to keep other’s prim edges off your land. The win. Until then it’s a mess ‘cept on private islands. It’s something they have to police and waste time on as it stands.

    I look forward to a time when i will not have to view, interact or even know about what is on the land next to me if i want it gone. Sure would ease up the abuse lines.

    k, back on topic..where’s the havok download please!

  27. paulie femto says:

    Latest version available for download is 1.18.3.70780. This is the version we already have. Clarify please?

  28. Andrew Linden says:

    The Havok4 simulator is version 1.18.5.something from our ‘havok4’ branch. The downloadable client is version 1.18.3.70780, but it should connect just fine.

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