Updates and Further Information on the New Search Project

As many of you read in last week’s blog announcement, we’re currently developing a new inworld search mechanism. Based upon your feedback and other discussions happening within the LL Search Team, I had a few updates to pass along.

New Search Design Mockup
We also wanted to share the newest iteration of the new Search UI, seen below.

New Search Updated UI

Updated! New Search UI (click for larger image)


Crashes with the 1.18.4 Release Candidate
We’re aware that some of you have experienced crashes with the current release candidate and we are currently working out what caused this. If you did experience issues with crashing using the 1.18.4 release candidate, please continue to use 1.18.3.

“For-Sale Objects” Default Set Incorrectly
Some of the default settings for the search are not showing up in the correct way due to an issue with the server-side code. Currently, the “Show in search” checkbox is defaulting off for all objects. The patch which corrects this will roll out with our next server update. What will happen once it rolls out:

  • If you already set “Show in search” on, it will stay on
  • If the object is set “For Sale” then “Show in search” will turn on
  • Going forward, you will always be able to set “show in search” whenever you can currently set “for sale”

Permissions and For Sale/Show in Search
Before the blog comments closed, several Residents asked about the inability to change the “show in search” checkbox on non-modifyable objects which were left set “for sale” by their creator. We’ve made a change, which will push in the next release candidate, to allow owners of objects to modify the “show in search” checkbox even if they do not have the ability to modify the object in other ways.

Vendors and the New Search
There were several questions about vendors and if they will be included in search automatically. Vendors will have to be explicitly set to “show in search” like any other object. From the server’s perspective, a vendor is just a scripted object — it doesn’t really know that the object is selling something. Likewise, it will not be possible to search inside of the vendor, although you could use the name or description of the vendor object to list keywords describing what is inside the vendor.

Teleporting Directly to Locations
There was some discussion in the blog about teleporting directly to locations on your parcel where “Show in search” objects are located. To clarify, this will not be possible with the new search; you will still be routed to the parcel’s default landing point. The new search simply lists the items set for sale on the parcel, thereby allowing people to find things easier.

Thank you all for your patience and feedback while we work to make Second Life better!

About Jeska Linden

Product Manager, Instigator
This entry was posted in Announcements & News. Bookmark the permalink.

150 Responses to Updates and Further Information on the New Search Project

  1. I can’t wait for this to be implemented!

  2. Wyald Woolley says:

    Thanks for paying attention to what the residents of SL had to say and taking that into account. It’s easy to sit off in a corner and think up how things should be, however the people that work and reside on the grid can see things far more practically, and their mesh of different expreiences can make a huge difference in whether a change is implemented horribly or not.

    Witness the incredibly stupid UI of the chat/IM/Groups window that was designed by someone who had no in-world experience, nor attempted to gain any input from the residents.

  3. Sylver Bu says:

    Um.. not the right place to say this, but the um.. upload server is ‘experiancing unexpected difficulties’ which is stopping me from uploading anything..

    As for the new search; I look forward to this new improvements. Perhaps it’ll improve my time in Second Life; but perhaps it’d be a good expense to work on repairing the numerous bugs and lag issues that plague Second Life; especially since Second Life is guarenteed to get a mass influx of people Tomorrow Night. (For those who dont know, CSI NY airs their eppisode in SL tomorrow night, 9 Central)

  4. Paulo Dielli says:

    Search gets more visual. One one hand that’s a good thing because you can see products and places more clearly. But I am concerned that images will load slowly and are blurred for a long time, like the images in the current search window. Why would people take the time then to wait again for the second search page?

    Now, with the text list, people can choose and scroll down pretty fast, make choices based on the text description. With the new visual search engine, when it indeed loads slowly, will they ever bother to look beyond the first page? I am very concerned that lower listings won’t have a chance anymore of being seen.

  5. Jeska Linden says:

    @ Paulo – the search results page is actually not full of images, just the initial “default” page (what you see when you click the “All” tab.) For a working image of what the search results look like, look here:

  6. ac14 Hutson says:

    i think the current search is fine (when it works) why do we need a better one for sometrhing i really rarely use. and wont searching for objects add to the already heavy burden? that adds 1000’s of new things to search though

  7. (^_^) It was nice to see you in the Linden village Jeska.
    Good to have a opportunity to share ideas and hear what’s new and coming. This new search will be helpful in reducing time locating items. I’m looking forward to using the new updates and keeping up with other additions to the client. Great job and keep up the good work! ,,,=^_^=,,,

  8. Jebediah Spatula says:

    Thanks for the update. You answered several questions I was curious about. Hopefully the final search will show more than 10 results per page tho, lol.

  9. mimi says:

    Hmm looks good so far..

    I wonder when we click on an add… will we see the image page like in the old search (the one with the shops image, title, info, traffic and location)? or will it be different?

  10. About Teleporting Directly to Locations:
    Actually, it woud be very cool if you could go from the search result to the precise object location; also, one could add a SLurl to her objects descriptions by hand; so, could the description field be made so it provides a clickable SLurl, if included by the owner?

    @3: i’m experiencing consistent upload issus too.

    @2: i find the new Communications UI pretty cool, it is good for me.

    Also, let’s try sticking to constructive comments 🙂

  11. Ann Otoole says:

    Will the description field on objects for sale be indexed?

  12. Storyof Oh says:

    lol do I see what appears like the word ‘VISTA’ in the mock up? so LL found it? In their time off tweaking with what we already have will they realise new computers no longer have XP??? can compatability ever make the ‘to do’ list?

  13. Jack Rhino says:

    New mockup looks interesting. Just concerned how it would paginate the results say if you had 700+ results.
    Pretty painful to flip through the results.
    If there will be options to show 2 column, 1 column, show with thumbnails, show without. I think that will be useful.

  14. JZ says:

    Windlight! I want my Windlight! PLEASE!!!!!!

  15. mimi says:

    though I like to bremain constructive aas well.. I think @2 has a point.. I dislike the communication window too..

  16. Blackmax Schumann says:

    @6. probably because you’re not the only one here. There will be lots of other people using it. :))

  17. Jayden B says:

    Will the default for a newly set to sale object be “Don’t show in search?”.

    Many people use “Buy for $0” with their friends to transfer goods in situ. I would hate to think that doing this would automatically list the item.

    Better to default to don’t list and make us set the search tag if we want to list it.

    @2. I like the communicate window. Tear off a person and tear off history and you can hold two local chats and one IM at the same time. It is far more flexible for RP purposes. If you wish to use the old interface use the Nicholaz editions.

  18. Jayden B says:

    Two more questions, what procedures are in place to stop people setting the name of a default prim to “Sexgen Platinum” with a price of $0 in order to drive up traffic?

    Will it be a TOS violation to set the name of a default prim to anything other than object?

    What Procedures are in place to stop the filling of search with spam in terms of objects named object?

    Currently you need to pay to place a classified, this new system looks like it will return things without having to pay the Lindens anything to list it. That opens it as a channel for abuse.

  19. elvisorbit says:

    This look very interesting. Seems very key word based which is cool. I wonder with the roll out of this will the traffic score be gone.

  20. Jayden B says:

    Two more thoughts.

    Will setting an object for sale cause it to be listed immediately?

    If so and the default is set to show in search could we see bots like landbots start grabbing sell for $0 items from under our noses?

    You say that the default sim TP point will be used, if the sim allows TP to anywhere it would be alot of lolz for griefers to place a fake cheap and popular object 768M above ground. Add a script so it randomly moves about, set it’s alpha to 0 and it would be quite hard to find.

  21. robielowey says:

    it would be nice in the search window to see where the most people are at the moment not where they have been. at the moment sl says there are 40k+ people online where are they? not individuals mind you, but like 300 people at such and such club etc

  22. Amanda Ascot says:

    Here’s my two cents’ worth.

    1) Having any part of my profile going into a search engine outside of Second Life — even just my name — is unacceptable. Period. I don’t, in principle, mind anyone at all perusing my profile. That’s why I created it. However, you can be absolutely certain that avatars will become the next target of unsolicited advertising the moment out-of-SL search engines can get to them. It *will* happen, folks. Linden Lab, please take notice. I can’t believe you people are so clueless as to see just how the bots are going to be flooding us with IMs, notecards, and other garbage that we’ll have to deal with from the first moment of log-in. This is a Bad Idea, guys. Any listing in search, once things are opened up to Google and the like, *must* be opt-in only, and if I say I don’t want my profile able to be searched that means every last little, teeny, itty, byte of it.

    2) Maybe I want my land to be searchable, but I do *not* want every object on it that’s for sale to be in the search. Ever think of that? As I understand, if an object is for sale it is, by default, on the search. This was discussed to death in the last blog topic — especially with regards to objects which may be ticked for sale without the owner realizing it. Default *must* be “non-searchable”. I can well imagine a new generation of “buy-bots” swooping down to gobble up every single item that goes on sale for zero L$ the instant it appears on search. It happened with First Land, and as a result we have no more First Land. It will happen with objects, now, and we may not actually *want* to sell an object to just anybody.

    These are prime examples of people thinking they know what other people want. We made it abundantly clear in the last blog post that you don’t know what we want. We’re perfectly capable of deciding for ourselves, on a case-by-case basis, precisely what information we want to appear in the new search. That means you need to let us release that information for public consumption ourselves — on that case-by-case basis, and not assume that we want the world knowing who we are, how old we are, whether or not we have lots of money, and whether or not we’re “verified” (as though *that* really works, but that’s a subject for another blog thread) — or that every single item we put up for sale should be searchable. The default for these, as any sane person can see, should be “NOT-searchable”.

    If you *really* respect our privacy like you claim you do, then how can you possibly prevent us from blocking that “minimal profile” from going out on the net, and then get up in the morning and look yourself in the face in the mirror?

    3) OK, I’ll actually end on a positive note. Those major quibbles aside, I really do like the functionality you’re putting into the new search. This isn’t an all-or-nothing issue for me. As with most of the decisions Linden Lab makes, there are strong points as well as points which prove you guys don’t think things through to their logical conclusions. You’re doing good work, and I appreciate it, and I also appreciate the fact that you’re actually talking to us about these things. Now, if you’d just start addressing the *concerns* we have about some of your decisions, I’d be much happier. I’m seeing progress in that direction, too, but I suspect the issue of privacy with regards to the new search facility is going to be an acid test for that.

  23. Nebadon Izumi says:

    how about you stop adding stupid features and fix some bugs already..

  24. Jayden B says:

    @23 Forest for the trees.

    While things like voice and windlight are shinys this new search has the potential to take the strain off other services.

    Doing that will improve the concurrency by lightening the load the servers have to handle.

    As was shown with the changes back in December (/me shivers recalling the problems) lightening the load allowed concurrency to soar past 20,000 and improved the whole grid.

    Changing search is not a new feature in my eyes, it is working towards fixing bug by lightening the load, offloading it to a google search appliance.

    Hmm, A thought. Robin has been so quiet recently (not a bad thing in itself) has she been fired yet? If she has (and we can hope) then that could explain why the Lindens now talk with us. Robin singlehandedly caused SL to loose favour with the media through her kill and run tactics on Ageplay, Gambling, VAT and Identity.

  25. Jazzman Jibilla says:

    Amanda and Jayden make very good points about the default settings. I second their thoughts because surely the decision to list in search must be the consciously made one and not the other way around which is intrusive.

    I am thankful it won’t look like the picture you put on the blog post.

  26. Roxi Bingyi says:

    Great work as usual Lindens. Improving search in any capacity is a beautiful thing. Can’t please everyone regardless.

    Next project…Inventory!!! It would be awesome to have a tool that shows if you have duplicates in your inventory. Like ITunes does.
    Thanks for your efforts. Carry on..

  27. Hecaeta Hax says:

    I keep hearing a recurring cry about “bots”, and yet there are whines about IDV. Strange, seems to me that if a user must register then the bots would have owners and be charged for ALT accounts. Same would apply to griefers ALT accounts as well.

  28. Martin Magpie says:

    Hooked up with IBM so ppl could travel threw different “worlds” within SL and yes I use “worlds” very loosely because as far as I can tell it just looks like a long commercial at this point.
    Hooked up with Ebay to take over the auctions.
    Hooked up with yet another company to verify age info.
    Hooked up with Google to take over search functions.
    Hooked up with another company to take over windlight and “shiny”.
    Hooked up with another company to introduce voice.

    These are not new and attractive features my friend, they are called outsourcing contracts.

    Next thing ya know LL will be telling us that they have no intention of selling L$ or reselling released Governor Linden land.

    …Oh wait.

    From a purely financial standpoint LL stock would be worth jack when everyone but LL is doing the work.

    But hey thanks for the now worthless land and the rounded prims to put on it.

    Make your product stable that would be a “feature” I could get behind.

  29. Tony says:

    Well I agree with Amanda Ascot on the profile issue. There should at the very least be an opt out of the profile search, realistically it should be an opt in.

    I really don’t fancy having to wade through piles of spam before I get to an important message and that will happen once profiles can be searched from outside SL.

  30. U M says:

    Seems like intersting concept. But what happen when the game becomes over loaded say 45,000 inworld? Looks like a major stress of of possible issues that might occure.

  31. Broccoli Curry says:

    You absolutely, totally, positively, MUST remove ‘traffic’ from factoring in ‘relevance’.

    Do this, you destroy most of the camping.

    That can only benefit everyone (except the welfare scroungers who don’t matter).

    Broccoli

  32. Pingback: Second Life News for October 24, 2007 « The Grid Live

  33. Britpop says:

    @ Broccoli Curry
    if you remove traffic there will be no relevance in search whatsoever.
    alphabetical wont work, how the keywords relate either.

    you think you provide a solution by saying so, but you dont.

    if you take the ‘traffic’ away you actually remove chances for good and working businesses and other nice places (they _DO_ have high traffic).

    I usually find stuff via search.

  34. Sling Trebuchet says:

    Search with muscle will be great.

    However, LL really have to put more thought into how people will ‘game’ any system. How to “Head ’em off at the pass”? 🙂
    The subversion of search engine ‘relevance’ is as old as search engines.

    From the original blog posting:
    “In the new All Search, results are returned by “relevance“, based on how well the page matches the query, how close the multiple words are together, and how many inbound links there are to the page. Inbound links are created by references in top picks, classifieds, landmarks, parcels and groups.”

    Top Picks? Landmarks?
    *In theory* this gives wonderful relevance.
    BUT – anyone can create an unlimited number of free accounts. Load up their Picks and Landmarks. Houston we have relevance!!
    It is absolutely inescapable that this practice would become widespread. Unlike the bot-farms and camping bots, this does not require any special software.

    Bot-runners will automate the Pick and Landmark loading. The existence of an account does not impose any ongoing resource load on them as does the running of a bot. They will create huge numbers of ‘relevance’ accounts.

    Mom-and-Pop users will set up the whole thing manually. M&P users may have the creation of at least on ‘relevance’ avatar as part of their daily SL routine. M&P ‘relevance’ avatars will eclipse the bots in sheer numbers due to the huge number of people with small-ish numbers of ‘relevance’ accounts.

    The outcome would go beyond the current nonsense ‘relevance’ generated by camping and bot-farms.
    LL’s total number of Residents will soar – and the idiocy of that number will be even more accentuated than it is now.
    OI and HI will be constantly flooded with these new incoming accounts. This will degrade the new users’ first exposure even more.
    Just indexing these ‘relevance’ accounts for Search will be a major load.

    How about?
    Only use Picks and Landmarks from Premium accounts for Relevance?
    Or – give a *considerably* reduced weighting to the Picks and Landmarks of non-Premiums.

    The major search engines are in a constant war with those whose mission in life is to subvert search for their own profit. If it’s LL’s intention to use Picks and Landmarks for relevance, then it implies that LL are not even in a mild disagreement with the subversives, never mind a war.

    There are a number of non-tech things about SL that degrade the user experience considerably. Low-lifes, pond-scum and the unthinking have it far too easy.
    With the New search, LL have an opportunity to take the unwelcome aspects of human nature into account. Do it. It’s a no-brainer.

  35. shawnwirtz tiki says:

    So this new search will only put out a few on each page so those on pages 2-2000 will get little traffic most people will just go to who is on the first page I hope this wont put alot of people out of business

    Anyone not on first page will have a difficult time if i put in the word

    SKIN

    then only first page will be getting the traffic

    so only the stores shown on the first page will have chance to be in business when there is hundreds of skin stores

    I hope the first page gives hundreds of locations not just a handful

    thanks
    Shawn

  36. Ben says:

    @21 – the average sim can at best hold 60 people, and that is going to cause it to preform badly, so the short answer is there spread over a ton of different places. It will be an interesting day when 300 people can fit in a single sim.

  37. alexwarrior says:

    G’day Jeska

    I am with Broccoli – are you taking away traffic?

    Sorry Britpop – but most of the shops with the highest traffic have low quality made items. In fact – when I search for places of interest or for purchasing something, I avoid those places with extreme high traffic – 100% of times it’s high due to campers.

    And if you take away traffic – you take away campers! Then when you see lots of green dots on the map – you will actually find people communicating, not bots!

    Cheers
    Alex

  38. Sal Salubrius says:

    I still can’t get into the candidate viewer and i own quite a bit of land. I have a lot of objects that will need to be set and other stuff to sort out from what i have been reading about on the blog and i can’t do that in the current viewer. Please tell me you hope to have sorted out the instant crashes well before this project goes live! *cry*(crash info posted in the JIRA for it days ago)

  39. Gavin says:

    I too agree with Broccoli.

    REMOVE TRAFFIC!

  40. Britpop says:

    alexwarrior: usually right for highest traffic, yes, but the best shops aren’t those with lowest traffic either. for a reason.

    if you sort relevance just by search terms, oh well, thats even easier to beat. you will just not find any good places anymore since everyone has the same stuff.

    and you are saying e.g. ETD has bad products? they have high traffic, too.

  41. Britpop says:

    addition: just skip the first 20-100k in traffic and you wont run into that many bots anyway -_-;.

  42. shawnwirtz tiki says:

    I think Picks is great revelence but landmarks is a bad idea because it will cause spamming landmarks to be a horrible headache everywhere you go you will get spammed mulitipal times with landmarks from robots to paid spammers we already have problems with people coming into stores getting paid to spam people with landmarks to competing stores

    I agree Traffic should be taken out and revelence should be based on
    keywords like google has it and add in Picks because people choose who they put in picks not being spammed with landmarks to generate false revelency

    Keywords and Picks not landmarks please 🙂

  43. Ann Otoole says:

    Yes you really need to set a floor on price to be indexed. Set it at minimum L$50 to be included in the search engine. Keep the scum from gaming the system and destroying the economy.

  44. Britpop says:

    “keywords like google”?

    Google doesnt just work with keywords, its way more complicated. Old search engines mainly worked with keywords and google isnt only, that’s why it is so successful. It sorts the relevance e.g. by links from other sites to the site and so on.

    Now for all those who want traffic out of the search: dont be just destructive and provide a proper idea of how you can actually give search some relevance then. right now you dont, and I bet you dont even have a clue how to do it.

    Now imagine your “relevance of search terms” approach:
    Whats the difference between 2 places with exactly the same words in their description? There is NONE. and as you can imagine you will get a lot more than 2, you will get a few thousands with these, and maybe we even end up with !!!!AAAAAA…stuff like bad search engines.

    you REALLY want that?

    Traffic still gives you some sort of indication of how important something is, of course you can screw that up with campers, but in the end a business that has high traffic usually has something to offer, while low traffic places most times dont. I’m not talking about super-high traffic in the 20-100k, but anything lower usually has a lot of relevance.

    now tell me, how are you gonna give the search a proper relevance without traffic?

  45. Anna Gulaev says:

    Due to Sheep Labs efforts, or this search thingy, or just inevitability, I predict spamming will make in-world IMs and inventory transfers useless as everyone will be forced to be always in busy mode. I hope LL is already planning how the game will operate under those circumstances.

    I predict a third-party viewer with a whitelist for inventory transfers, and a whole lot of support tickets from people asking why inventory transfers aren’t working when they try to buy things but haven’t set their whitelist correctly.

    Does anyone remember a time before spam filters when email worked reliably? Used to be you never had to ask “did you get my email?”, because if you didn’t get a bounce message then they almost certainly got it.

    Used to be.

  46. Anna Gulaev says:

    I also predict that sellers will have to use third-party web interfaces for customer support since they won’t be able to accept IMs.

  47. Maximilian Proto says:

    We do people dislike campers? Camping is actually not the worst way to keep new residents staying in Second Life and getting them a bit of play money to test SL before some of them start exploring it further. I found that they are merely distorting a few search results at the very top of the list for the most generic search terms. The more specific your search becomes, the more accurate traffic seems to reflect the true “relevance”.

    I also think that objects should be excluded from search by default. I guess it would actually improve the quality of search results if only objects are included that people want to be found or sold. The other way around, search could easily become cluttered with items burying the places you are looking for, thus reducing the usefulness of the tool.

    For profiles, I would suggest having default options for “Include in In-world search = Yes”, and “Include in Out-world search = No”. #22 has a point – also, just because you write something in a profile in Second Life does not necessarily mean you want to share it with the whole world.

  48. Broccoli Curry says:

    Sorry but anyone who thinks high traffic equals a quality product offered is very very mistaken. It just indicates campers.

    Traffic has to go. We were told it was going to be removed some months ago but so far nothing has happened.

    Is it really the end of the world if you have to teleport to 3 or 4 different locations to look at different people selling variants of the same item, before finding the one you want? Shopping in SL is an exciting experience, and you might just find someone selling a better item at a new store than the one you’ve always gone to.

    Second Life has a wonderful opportunity to get rid of some of the problems of reality, like big names getting exposure simply because they are big, rather than because they are good. There’s a huge army of ‘little people’ working in SL not getting the exposure they deserve – do your bit to help them!

  49. Britpop says:

    Broccoli, again, please read my last post, it doesnt make sense at all just to say “traffic has to go” while not having any idea of how to give the search proper relevance, for the rest see above.

    and again NO, high traffic doesnt always mean only campers, thats nonsense, its like you say good places dont get visits.

  50. Matthew Dowd says:

    “For-Sale Objects” Default Set Incorrectly

    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2811

    Sorry, you are not listening – the Show in Search should default to off in all cases when introduced. This will not please everyone, but will cause less headaches than the approach you are proposing!

    Permissions and For Sale/Show in Search

    Good – but what about the related issue, that if you buy an object set as Show in Search (which had been set for sale as original or as a copy), the object you receive has the Show in Search flag still set! It should default to off in such circumstances

    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2823

  51. Broccoli Curry says:

    Unless people stop spamming the search with keywords that bear absolutely no relevance whatsoever to what they offer – there will never be ‘proper relevance’ in search.

    It’s re-educating people that we need to do, more than anything else. By force, if necessary, by abuse reporting them, until they learn. But that’ll only work if Linden Lab get out of ‘hippy mode’ and start running like a real business. It’s clear that ‘trust’ doesn’t work.

  52. Britpop says:

    Erm, broccoli, people dont work that way.
    are you saying people will learn how to deal with keywords better than with the current keywords + traffic combination? like, they will start being “intelligent” from now on if you force traffic out? At the same time you say they are stupid for abusing the traffic aspect?
    People will abuse any systems weaknesses, that’s the way it is, and yet, you didnt provide any constructive idea on that issue. do you just post for the sake of posting?

  53. Broccoli Curry says:

    I post like you do – to have your say on a subject that concerns us. We’re obviously looking at it from different angles.

    If people can no longer search by using traffic, they’ll have to learn new ways to find things – and new ways to list things. Adapt, or die. Hopefully camping will do the latter.

  54. Britpop says:

    your angle is quite simple: destructive, and all I ask you for is to provide a constructive comment about what else you want to sort search hits by relevance. We already have keywords, and keywords alone wont help. See above.

  55. Broccoli Curry says:

    You say that like the destruction of camping is a bad thing.

    Why does camping exist? To create artificially high traffic numbers, and that alone. Don’t for one minute think that the landowners are doing it for the benefit of newbies. I’ve never camped, and never intend to. Camping is cheating, and I will not support people who cheat.

    I’m gonna go do something else for an hour so we don’t end up filling up all the comments.

  56. Matthew Dowd says:

    “For-Sale Objects” Default Set Incorrectly

    I’ve created a poll for this to see what the “general” opinion is

    http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=218823

  57. Jim Perhaps says:

    About this search thing. I do not begin to understand all the details or the pros and cons. I do have an idea though. Lets do away with camping. I understand that this is something Linden Labs does not want to do. Why? Because if there is no camping the number of people online will take a big nose dive. Maybe a huge nose dive.

    There are bots out that that allow people to have several accounts and end up paying themselves to camp on their own land. The camping thing is probably precious to Linden Labs. Maybe Phil and each Linden have a whole bunch of bots camping to pump up the online numbers. Anyways, get rid of camping. We know it is an under handed technique used by people to pump up the traffic numbers. No doubt the Lindens love camping as it pumps up their numbers.

    50,000 currently online.. of those 20 thousand are people actively enjoying second life. The remaing 30,000 is made up of bots or people that have been AFK for a month.

    Just make camping a violation. Get some volunteers to report camping scripts to LL and then LL can remove them and add a service charge for the removal.

  58. Britpop says:

    Broccoli, I don’t say that. Please pay attention. And still, you fail to give me a proper answer to my question. Ok, keep on posting your stuff, I get the feeling you have no clue about what to do else. x_x

  59. Broccoli Curry says:

    Britpop, you appear to be a lone voice supporting camping. Try reading the things others are saying if you won’t listen to me saying that camping is a bad thing.

  60. Chris says:

    Please remove traffic entirely from the equation!!

    @Britpop: I see you first defend a particular hair shop then remove it yourself in the 20-100k theory. Your method clearly doesn’t work either or you’d be excluding that hair shop as in your own words, “just skip the first 20-100k in traffic and you wont run into that many bots anyway”.

    Google isn’t perfect either, look at all of the blogspam of links to get the flavour of the the month linkback. All engines are easy to ‘game’ but removing traffic removes something that has plagued SL since the first camp chair was invented. The ‘relevence’ of traffic is long gone. Dwell was better for relevence back in the day, but just as easily gamed: “L$3000 giveaway for Best in White slacks and non-prim hair contest!” fine print: “for those who spend 2 hours on premises”. But at least most of those avatar’s spoke, interacted. I say Broccoli is spot on correct in saying remove traffic without giving a new method for relevence. It’s not Broccoli’s job to fix relevence in it’s absence. Google works without adding load to the system. Why can’t we hope for an equally intelligent solution? There’s merely a prolific amount of bots camping and that makes it’s relevence dubious to begin with, not to mention reducing proveable server load. I’m for removing anything that gets rid of campers. I will point at the many many alternative search tools out there that have nothing to do with ‘unique page visitors count’, being the only thing close to camping in real terms as my seemingly required alternative fix or someone comes back immediately with a sarcy reply.

  61. Feed Back says:

    Hello Jeska,

    I think an updated search function is fine. Just not sure the currently suggested way is really that good. If i, right now, either have to subdivide & list a parcel or to list a classified to be seen in search, then from the update on i can save that cost.

    I just hang up a series of prims on my parcel give them all sorts of keywords and put them on sale. So then they can be found under search. I will use 100 simple pics or something to make sure, it´s only me appearing of the first 3 search pages!?

    Is that really how it works?

    Please comment on this because if yes, then this will end up in an even bigger mess than what the current search function is like. Start with removing the ability to have spaces infront of a parcel name. Make sure classifieds as well as parcelnames don´t have more than 2 or 3 spaces inside them and also don´t start with a 0 or with !. That will give us all a fairer competition.

    People will start putting up simple prims for sale (0L$ or 1L$) just to have some keywords on display in the search. Especially if you´re actually a mall owner where 80% of products are displayed in vendors. I think you put mall owners on a clear competition disadvantage the way you want to introduce it. So they will find their way to make an info dumpster out of the search.

    Please consider this

  62. Broccoli Curry says:

    If it’s the hair shop I’m thinking of … it’s stuffed full of campers and bots.

    That waste load actually makes that region almost unusable because it takes so long for everything to rez, many people (myself included) would have given up and found somewhere else to go. Camping can actually be a huge negative on the shopping experience that far outweighs the “benefits” perceived by the higher traffic by the clueless.

  63. Kara Spengler says:

    Two things I noticed in the example search picture:

    1) Where des the first item (the land) have the string ‘frog’ in it? Since there is a different icon, I wonder if there will be pay-for-placement …. which would make a search useless.

    2) I did not see an ‘onjects’ tab. Does this mean to search for objects we need to search for everything? (if I am looking for, say, a new neko skin, I could care less about clubs that welcome nekos).

  64. Britpop says:

    @chris… still, tell me how you can get some sort of relevance that isnt alphabetical or random. it has to be via traffic. that’s the only kind of ‘quality’ indication a computer can get. And still, you want to use your brains for search -_-.

    it would be a lot easier if you could actually use stuff like +, -, OR, and “term with more than one word” (that last one is working right now).

    with thousands of entries you need some sort of relevance. there is no way a machine can judge this. want a voting system? it will be abused aswell.
    but by removing traffic you basicly kill the only indication we can have.
    Will I get another “but traffic is bad” answer now, or will someone finally come up with something better than just saying “traffic has to go”?
    if not – then you should just keep silent as you have no clue.

  65. Very Keynes says:

    A lot of good points have been raised in theses two blogs and it is great to see that they are being taken into consideration. I for one like the new search, having tried the beta I kitted out an alt with the look I have been after for over a year, in less than an hour, and at less than I expected it to cost, as I could compare prices before even going in world. That said I also have my fears about certain aspects, most have which have been raised already.

    @22 I have already started to rewrite my in world profile as a result of this, as I too would rather not have it made public, however LL do make showing other than your name and DOB opt in, by way of the publish on web tag. I have more concern with my group memberships being visible in world that I do my profile description being off world. And as an aside try Google your name; you will be amazed how much info on your avatar is already in the Public domain 🙂

    @31 and all others concerned with traffic, I see both sides of the story as both a club owner and a club visitor. I place little relevance on traffic in the current search as, in my experience, it is not really functioning. I have often held events and had both my clubs full of visitors for hours (no camping involved – I too hate it) and the next day my traffic rating has plummeted rather than increased J on the other hand I see the relevance to the new search. Perhaps combining traffic with parcel size would help, and I think that listings in picks is probably far more relevant, and is visible in the Beta Search, indirectly.

    @34 Bots will always be a problem as long as free accounts are allowed and some bots are useful, the majority are not. But everything will be gamed no matter what we do and as long as the L$ has value and the Lindex exists it will be farmed.

    As for load, I think this will drastically reduce load as searches will no longer be against the Asset Server and certainly in my case a lot of searches will be performed before going online, that why my expensive and limited bandwidth is used to enjoy second life and time with my friends, not hiding in a corner trying to search or shore hipping looking for relevant items 🙂
    Wow that was long ….
    Ill go back to lurking

  66. Chris says:

    @Britpop – you lost all credibility with “then you should just keep silent as you have no clue” it is my job to know how these things work and I could write you a thesis on why traffic kills SL. But it’s not my job to do it for LL, or for you , for free – so soothe your ego a bit.
    “it has to be via traffic.” absolute rubbish, as I already disproved.
    10% of the responses here are YOURS. Get over yourself and let someone else have a chance to reply.

    Want another indicator that is easily gamed but FAR LESS destructive on the environment? ok, use Picks. Yep, free accounts mean surges of one day old with a certain shop in their Pick. But millions of never played bot-fed accounts is far less destructive than camping. It’s just as relevant since I can pay 100 zombies to make my shop look cool same as I can pay some script kiddy to create me a million accounts with only my shop in their Pick. Please explain how relevent traffic is if I have to prove how irrelevant it is, no wait… you’ve already replied here more than the average for UM, and that’s saying a LOT without once saying anything but ‘keep it or give an alternative’. well, I gave you a less destructive alternative, I agree it’s just as poor. but it doesn’t hurt my (or your) experience in any way as camping does.

  67. Astarte says:

    The above comments on profile search, please note everyone. At the moment IT IS OPT IN, and my understanding on that is that it will remain as OPT IN, so stop griping about it.

  68. Very Keynes says:

    Me again, just realised I can’t edit posts 🙂
    It occurs to me that if groups could be tied to a parcel that too is a measure of relevance, as I only stay in groups that I want to receive event and other information from.

  69. Neuro Linden says:

    @28: Martin, just to clarify (as mentioned in Jeska’s original post), the new search project does not involve us outsourcing in-world search to Google, but us integrating Google Search Appliance hardware into our system. Hope that clears that up.

  70. Britpop says:

    @chris, look, people keep posting stuff like “traffic has to be gone, I hate campers”. That’s basicly mixing two things. traffic itself isn’t a bad indicator, it’s actually a pretty good one. the more people go to a place, the better it usually suits their needs in certain aspects. it’s first of all most likely a result of mouth to mouth propaganda.

    camping is ‘bought’ traffic, and it’s of course the most stupid way of getting ‘traffic’. no one really misses that fact.

    but what you “traffic has to go” people dont get is, that there is _no other way_ of getting relevance into search. Look, you keep saying “traffic has to go, as it will keep away campers”. It’s a loop. you mainly dont like campers as they hyperinflate traffic, so you want traffic gone so campers are gone.
    That’s just not logical.

    There is no working solution without traffic, other than these we already use (3rd party market index like slex), and “mouth to mouth propaganda” and similar (as in picks e.g.).

    imagine you type in “IBM” into google, and the first pages just show you forums which use “IBM” a lot, but not the actual IBM page.

    Google uses different ways to determine a site’s importance, but we cannot use them fully in SL.

    however, most places who have campers usually have “camping” in their search terms. now if we could exclude “camp” in search (like -camp), you would probably find a lot more suitable hits.

    So you tell me I lost all my credibility because I prefer constructive comments? hmmm… that’s kinda bad for your credibility here.

    are you saying it’s fine to make a lot of destructive comments but expect others to solve the issue? -_-
    that’s what I call lack of credibility.

  71. Jim Perhaps says:

    Lets just make having camping scripts a violation of TOS. I think it has becoming common knowledge outside of Second Life that Linden Labs has done everything it can to artificially inflate numbers. I think they should accept that if the cat is not entirely out of the bag it soon will be and people outside of SL will be saying “oh yeah that is the virtual world where they inflate the number of users any way they can”.

    Do away with camping. Take the hit of the online count taking a huge nose dive and start building something stable and legitimate.

  72. mimi says:

    Its an utopia to things removing traffic would make the search better. Au contrary.. if you remove ‘traffic’ most places in the search the new ones will just be those that spam best in another way.
    Now spam is limited at least by the amount of money people can pay, so there is some kind of limit on it.
    Free spam would be endless, just like email spam.

    Removing traffic will remove the good places as well. If you look at a ‘places search’ and ignore the places saying ‘camping’ or ‘free money’, the search will actually gives a good indication of places people like. If the traffic would be removed, the good places will be removed as well.
    Considering that most of the low traffic places are places noone wants to be in (theres an overdose of empty clubs and resell shops on the mainland which people hardly put any effort in making) what good would it add? Would the few good shops that don’t get traffic actually get listed higher, or would it just mean even more ‘less relevant’ results and tons of extra shops which have bad products which will probably still out compete the few small good ones just by their numbers in the search? (plus remove the bigger good ones as well)

    Traffic in the good cases indicates a place has something that people like because they want to be there (a nice hang out, good shop, great looking sim). There are a lot of places like this. Places like Naughty Designs, FNKY/CAKE, RAC, GuRL6 make great products, its pretty arrogant to assume they ‘just’ sell better because they are big.

    In the bad cases high traffic does indicates the place has campers. In most cases though if a place makes enough money to pay for campers, at least it’s a profitable place…(making money). If people wouldn’t find anything there they would like to spend money on, the place wouldn’t exist for long. Its always better to find a some places that use camping (and at least have products people like to have and buy) and be also able to find the good places, than to find mostly places that noone likes or wants.

    Also, consider when traffic is of no relevance anymore, people will have trouble finding other people, since most places they will teleport to are empty. Traffic at least give an indication where to find other people. This usability of the traffic is highly underestimated. Who needs hundreds of newbies flying lonely over Secondlife because they cannot find anyone to talk with?

    Yep, its easy to say “hey remove all traffic because of the campers” without giving any arguments (besides the ‘remove all the campers’ argument itself), but before you post think about the consequenses for the search as well. If spamming can be done for free, will it really get better or less? Or will it just open ways for new, unlimited spam? Will the small shops actually be listed now when there will be even more spam?

    PS: if you have already made a post, and would like to make another, at least try and add some *new* in it. We don’t need to hear the same opinion from one person over and over again (broccoli 7 times!), without any new arguments. Please try and not take up so many posts if you have nothing new to add. Other people need space too.

  73. Ceera Murakami says:

    Jeska, thank you for listening and for responding rapidly to at least some of our key concerns. I especially appreciate the idea that the ‘show in search’ checkbox should be independant of other settings.

    On the “for sale” checkbox issue: I ran a test, and checked some previously problematic objects, and it seems that whatever bug had made it impossible to un-check the “For Sale” status on a no-mod object has been fixed. My Partner was able to un-check it, finally, on a couple of objects that had prevously been perma-checked.

    PLEASE do not make items pop up in search the instant you enable the ‘for sale’ flag on them, if they are on searchable land. I agree with many other comments here that the bot makers will use this to automate theft of items set to a low price for transfer in situ. We DESPERATELY need the ability to set an in-world object so we can ‘sell original’ to a designated buyer ONLY. There is no safe way at this point to transfer placed in-world content, and there are a LOT of professionals like me popping up who build for others, and who must have a way to transfer ownership of what they have created.

    Listing keywords in the name of a vendor is NOT an acceptable solution. The names of vendors often are the only way we merchants can identify what store the sale is coming from. My own vendors are all named based on the type of merchandise they sell and the store and sim they are in. Spamming that with a list of 30+ item names and prices just won’t work.

    There is still going to be a HUGE disparity between those who sell in individual boxes and those who sell via vendors. Merchant A sells dresses in individual boxes. All 100 versions of her dresses get individually listed, FOR FREE, because the mall her store is in is searchable. Merchant B, right next door, sells 100 dreses too, but sells them in vendors, organized by type. She gets only one listing in search per vendor, even if she does add a slew of keywords to her vendor name. So who gets the benefit from Search? Merchant A, of course, whose dresses spam the whole search page with 100 listings. While Merchant B is forced to abandon her vending system in order to remain competitive, because the new Search only lists her merchandise as 4 hits, as oposed to 100 for the ‘sells from boxes’ merchant.

    There is only one way to level the playing field. Charge a fee for listing an object for sale, and do not auto-populate the search. Make it so you must set the item for sale, AND manually check the “Show in search” box, before it is listed, and charge a fee per weel for listing that object, just like you do for classified ads.

  74. Alissa Sabre says:

    I want to see some support for languages other than English in titles, description, etc. At the same time, it should provide some filtering mechanisms to avoid flood of languages that the user can’t read. Yes, we need some research how we can achieve this. It’s better your “Search Team” to have at least one non-European language peaker to lower the language bias. (On your mock screen shot, all items are explained in upper-case only text. I’m afraid you are planning to make them upcase on the server side… You need someone who can point out such a scheme doesn’t work in general, for example.)

  75. Broccoli Curry says:

    I think the ‘hit’ to concurrency is really nothing when you consider the benefits through reduced server load/wasted bandwidth costs of camping.

  76. Stip End says:

    Sorry bit off topic, but its´Wednesday, and no stipends have been paid. Any chance you will do that soon? I mean parcel directory fees & classifieds always work. Why is stipends a different routine?

  77. Melody Marlin says:

    Britpop, you’re a broken record and now you’ve turned directly abusive. Please let others have an opinion without getting personal. mimi chose Broccoli who was only replying to your directly insulting posts (I’m with mimi on the overall issue by the way). Do you have some vested interest in keeping camping? The school bully had no credibility either.

    I can see both sides to it. Traffic created camping. Dwell was never hurt by camping as there was no free accounts nor camp chairs created at that time. The popular places were those with high dwell. The popular places are not those with high traffic, in most cases. Traffic was a good indicator but it really isn’t anymore. Since traffic seems to inevitibly be here to stay in some form (though I actually like the pick idea and group idea just as much) how about we lower it’s relevance to par with lots of other indicators, like those already described above? I agree with mimi for the most part except I’d add that newbies are already finding it difficult since those ‘people’ are just bots when they visit the traffic-led places. Perhaps a mixture of landmarks held, picks and groups can coincide with traffic to give some indicator, but I hope that traffic as-is is not as important on the new scale.

  78. Britpop says:

    @melody martin, where am I getting personal? and further, what is abusive? if you refer to “credibility”, I didnt bring that one up, it’s in reply to chris, who ‘attacked’ me with that.

    however, I have the feeling you didnt properly read my posts (how can I tell? simply, you didnt get my position but assume it). where do you get the idea that I support camping?

    again, please dont mix those two issues. camping and traffic are two different things. you can be against camping and for traffic.

    mimi even had some sort of argument for camping.

    so I wonder why you dont respect my oppinion aswell? thanks for keeping double standards here.

    It is important for people to understand that traffic itself isn’t a bad thing, but however has created bad aspects (camping). However, it is part of the way our world works, nothing is perfect. democrazy is a bad system, but the best one we have, right? -_-

  79. Melody Marlin says:

    *points above* personal attack. least I had the guts to say my name in world. I never said anything about not respecting your opinion. I merely pointed out you were getting personal, and using bully tactics for those you view are somehow against you, as you then did with me. Despite me saying I agree with some traffic being involved – so who didn’t read whom’s post?
    Not going to reply to you again, you know how to find me in world if you really have some issue to raise.

  80. Fianna Idora says:

    Repeat of # 11
    Will the description field on objects for sale be indexed?

    I do think that ‘show in search’ is something that should be enabled manually just like the ‘for sale’ option – it shouldn’t be automatic.

  81. Phil Deakins says:

    “Crashes with the 1.18.4 Release Candidate
    We’re aware that some of you have experienced crashes with the current release candidate and we are currently working out what caused this. If you did experience issues with crashing using the 1.18.4 release candidate, please continue to use 1.18.3.”

    It’s not crashes that stopped me from using 1.18.4 – it’s the fact that texture repeats can’t be changed, even on prims you created and own. It’s no good at all for people who make things. Before that fault occured, I was using the Candidate viewers since they came out.

  82. U M says:

    The Possibity of being a very positive thig, van also turn out to be a neg thing. Anytime you introduce any fuction like this you risk the stress the ui as a whole. It might be a good thing to a point. But there is more of a chance to risk more failure then good.

    U sagi M usagi

  83. Xi Taurog says:

    Thank you for working on this new search feature, and for working out a way for people to uncheck the search box for non-mod items that are pre-set for sale – I think it will alleviate a lot of people’s concerns. Some people seem to be worried about having bots swoop down on things they are trying to sell to friends for $0 – I like the idea of implementing something in object sales to allow the sale to be set to a particular individual, like land sales are.

    Some people argue that the vast majority of items sold are in vendors, and that the search function will not work because of this. I do not see it that way – most items I see for sale when I am shopping are in individual prims. The people who say that almost everything is sold through vendors appear to be the people who sell THEIR things in vendors, and they are concerned about being put at a disadvantage.

    Finally, I would like to suggest that you limit the number of times an individual can respond to a blog post. I see a lot of people fighting with each other in these blogs and using up most of the allowed posts by insulting each other. This makes the blog comments less useful to everyone when people who have something constructive to say can’t post because someone else has made 10 posts to argue with other posters.

  84. mimi says:

    @77

    Most people who use the ‘real’ scripted camping bots don’t put them in visible places.. they just add a box high up in the sky with default newbies without hair skin or attachments so they cause the least lag possible.

    Most of the visible camping newbies ive run into are real people, they just are AFK. Though AFK newies dont add much either beeing in a place where 50% is AFK is better than beeing in a place where there is no traffic or people at all.

    Places like ‘free sex’ contain mostly real people. Its still better than empty places. The popular places contain many real people too, theres always lots of newbies walking around and talking.

    I agree with Britpop that most places with over 20.000 traffic rely on campers for some/the most part. Most good shops have between 20.000-1000 traffic. Shops with less traffic usually don’t add much good. (unless its a shop selling rare items like for example telescopes)

    Some shops create traffic over 20.000 without campers but they are rare (like the hair shop Gurlywood, it has 35000 traffic, no campers)

    I dont feel Britpops posts are abusive btw.
    Britpop replied several times to the fact that Broccoli kept repeating britpop is ‘pro campers’, while actually Britpop says ‘pro traffic’. Thats a huge difference.
    Britpop never says I’m pro camping, britpop says I’m pro traffic. Camping is not the same as traffic. Broccoli however keeps accusing Britpop of his. Britpops comes with aguments defending his/her posts, isn’t this pretty normal in a discussion?

    Adding posts to the blog saying ‘we need a good solition’ mentioning no arguments or saying ‘its not our problem to come up with something’ seems pretty naive. Especially mentioning google as an example. When one searches on google, google returns 90% pages using ‘google adsense’ banners. Google adsense banners are text banners that people get payed money for to host/have people click on them. They don’t look much like banners because they give text and can be integrated in the page design, but they can be recognised by the small texts saying ‘ads by google’. Depending on the search word, some 50-80% of the pages contain one or more. Google earns lots of money on providing these, and provides hundreds of them.

    (btw how does one estimate how many people are real? Just put a blonde girl with suggestive pics in her profile in a camping place, send all campers a message land leave the babe online 48 hours in the same room. Then see how many of the male campers reply when they come back from beeing AFK. Most do)

  85. mimi says:

    ps: 90% refers to a text part I deleted.. 90% only acounts for search words which have no competition from the huge dot com sites… those usually have their own banners or sell items

  86. Amanda Ascot says:

    Hecaeta @27: The ‘bot – IDV issue you have is not an issue. IDV will not stop ‘bots. IDV is not mandatory. It’s completely voluntary. There will still be free accounts.

    Very @65: I know exactly what my in-world name brings up on Google, since I regularly search on it, just to see. I’m actually surprised how little Google has on me, especially since I’m a frequent poster to the blogs and other forums. I did an experiment that was an eye-opener, and it’s something that everyone here who does not have an issue with this privacy violation being considered should do. Read your own profile. Pick out keywords and key phrases just like a search engine will do. Now run those through Google. Take a count, on just the first two pages of each search, of the blatant advertisements. You’ll be getting those, and more, each time you log on. Do you have the word “sex” in your profile? Anywhere? Even in an innocent context? As a well-known actor says … “I pity you, fool!”

    Astarte @67: Profile search is only pseudo opt in. If you do not opt in to this three relevant parts of your profile *still* get on the search engine without your permission — your name, your age, and your account type. That, alone, is valuable information for advertising spammers, but I’ll leave the details for how they can use that to target you with ads up to your own imagination. It’s pretty much a no-brainer to figure out.

    Ceera @73 “Charge a fee for listing an object for sale, and do not auto-populate the search. Make it so you must set the item for sale, AND manually check the “Show in search” box, before it is listed, and charge a fee per weel for listing that object, just like you do for classified ads.”: Now *that* seems to me to be The Solution for this problem. Thank you for so succinctly wording it. In fact, the fee should probably be related to the cost of the item, but must have a minimum cost, as well. I’m as concerned as others about people spamming the search with zero cost plywood cubes, and if each of these cost something to list it would help to alleviate that.

    Regarding the camping issue: I have mixed feelings about this. There are free accounts. We live with it. In fact, I started out with a free account and made my in-world money through *legitimate* camping — just my avatar, and no camping alts, and more often than not I’d be right there at the computer either exploring the sim I was in, chatting with fellow campers, many of whom are still in-world friends, or even shopping, somewhere, with that hard-earned cash. Back then there weren’t many “camping farms”. At most you could expect to find a lonely camp pad, or a quiet corner with four or five chairs. You could make anywhere from L$12 to L$20 an hour … more if the parcel owner was generous. Camping was actually good, The camp-bots and “professional campers”, as I refer to the 24/7 camping avatars, changed all that, and camping virtually dried up for those of us who actually needed the modicum camp chairs paid out. I’ll be opening up my own shop some day, and it will have one or two camp pads — not to increase dwell, but to serve the real people with legitimate accounts who actually need L$, and those camp pads will be custom scripted so I *know* there are no ‘bots on them. I remember my roots and I’ll never forget them — or how difficult it can be for a homeless person, and it was little different for me here in SL as it was IRL. So, making camping a violation of TOS is not a viable option from my point of view. On the other hand, 24/7 campers should be a violation of TOS, and I can well see the wisdom of Linden Lab somehow (if it’s possible) limiting the number of camping pads on a plot, perhaps based upon its size.

  87. Steel H says:

    I look forward to see what the new search will bring. The existing search does have some problems. I’m assuming of course for the real search page, when it says “Type something in the box above and click the search button”, that you will actually include the entry box and search button… 🙂

    In my opinion, traffic is relevant in searches. People should be aware that just like in RL, traffic doesn’t imply superior services or products. Just like in RL, traffic can be manipulated by freebies/giveaways, etc. I like the idea about “premium account” traffic having a higher weighting, and other algorithms that might lower the weighting of “camping”.

    If I’m searching for something and there are 1000 results, I’d like to see “the most popular” places first. But people have to realize what that means. Even if no unfair tricks are used to increase the weighting, just because I search for “prim hair” doesn’t mean the top store has the highest traffic for prim hair — they could have the most popular prim shoes, and just happen to sell one item of prim hair.

    It would be great to add a “product search” — based on actual number of purchases (or number of avatars that own the item). Then again, people need to know what this means. I might be interested in the fewest purchased, just ’cause I want a unique item!

    And for those people that submit off-topic posts, STOP IT. This is not the place to whine about stipends, or inventory uploads, etc. If people are reading the blog comments here its because we’re interested in comments on the topic at hand — the Search Project.

  88. Tinker LaFollette says:

    I’d suggest setting ‘Show in Search’ default to checked for objects that can accept payment (i.e., that have a handler for the money() event). This would put vendors, tip jars, and donation boxes in the search mix.

  89. Xi Taurog says:

    I would also like to suggest (if possible) that we have a function to edit our blog posts if we have something relevant to add, instead of making a new post.

    Some people also appear to be concerned about people rezzing empty cubes to spam the keyword searches, and suggest that you charge per prim for listing an item in search or only list objects that cost over a certain amount of money. I think this would be a horrible idea! The only people who would benefit from this are people who sell out of vendors and people who sell high cost items, and I don’t doubt that these people will heavily support this idea. I am not one of those people.

    Why am I not concerned about people spamming keyword search by using empty prims? Because in order to have all those empty prims to set keywords with, you have to use a lot of your prim allocation!!! I think it’s very unlikely that any significant number of people will pay that much in extra tier just to get a thousand more prims to use for keyword spamming.

    Consider this: someone like me who sells only a handful of items that cost more than $25, and tracks my freebies by setting them for sale for $0, would never stay in business paying a listing fee for every prim. Additionally, I would never be found in search unless I raised all my prices. And people looking for low cost items to buy would never find them. It would be paradise for people who sell expensive items, or even cheapo items at inflated prices. Not so great for the rest of us.

  90. mimi says:

    @83 Xi, though most shops selling with vendors are tend to be the longer term, quality, not super commercial shops.

    Why? Because in malls there often isnt enough place for separate items, and with a vendor an update can be made once for all vendors easily (instead of going to all your mall shops separately)

    There are many shops without vendors too but most of them are newbie/freebie selling/resell shops where one person has 1 shop. We will lose a lot of better quality shops when vendors will show up less high though.

    @86 lol I started out camping too. Made my money in game (didnt have a creditcard back then) with camping and jobs. Though bot camping adds little, real camping boosts economy because a lot of people use camping money to buy items, which they wouldn’t if they couldnt camp. For some people it takes while before they get addicted enough to SL and pay or it (or decide to order a creditcard which isn’t the standard bank card in many european countries, and is impossible to get without a certain income in my country). When people coulnt camp more would leave too because initially a lot of people don’t want to pay for an online game..

    Also thinks of it this way: The ones hosting camping boots for real campers are paying for newbies buying items in our shop!

  91. Ann Otoole says:

    i can see it now. 14,000 plywood default empty prims all set for sale with the same spam keywords on the BIAB & porn scammer sims. Along with the 80 sleek client bots to drive the so-called traffic metric up eating system resources that could be better used by legitimate residents.

    Linden Research is going to have to adopt some policies and enforce them in regards to deceptive advertising *BEFORE* they start indexing the grid. This means they have to move fast and start cleaning house now.

  92. mimi says:

    PS: I really really really don’t want to be listed or be able to be indexed in google in any way. I don’t want my name in the list, my birthdate and *certainly* not my payment info and my text. Its like advertising: hey this avatar has a creditcard! The avatar has money! Spam the avatar!

    If my text will show up in the google search, I will probably have to remove it or make my profile non public. This will not be a good thing for my customers, since I explain to those that read my profile how they can request replacements for lost objects etc. But I don’t want to be in google any way.

    Most email addresses I have posted somewhere are filled with spam. I don’t want my avatar be spammed with ‘breast implants’ ‘viagra’ and ‘loan money’ too.

    Even worse, when I get spam I will have to create another profile to live with and be in busy mode forever when I use the shops one. But what will happen to those needing customer service? It will make it even harder for me to reach them and it is already hard with the IM caps etc. Thats not a good thing.

    Please make beeing listed on the web search optional. Please make having my name listed on the web in my land, classifieds and objects insivible on the web invisible too. Make anything indicating that one I even have a small amount of money invisible. Spam is a terrible thing.

  93. mimi says:

    “Why am I not concerned about people spamming keyword search by using empty prims? Because in order to have all those empty prims to set keywords with, you have to use a lot of your prim allocation!!! I think it’s very unlikely that any significant number of people will pay that much in extra tier just to get a thousand more prims to use for keyword spamming.”

    @89 A 512 plot can contain 512 prims.. thats a very cheap way of advertising ^^ you can rent a 512 plot from up about 210 rent a week, so thats about 1 linden a week for 2 objects. I’m sure man ybigger places will do that.. its cheaper than placing classifieds.

  94. U M says:

    I rather see a 3 stage release of this concept. Why? because they can see what the possible issues will be early and correct then fast. LL is not always the smartest when doing releases like this.

  95. Xi Taurog says:

    @93 Huh? A 512 plot contains 117 prims by default. Some private island plots offer additional prims to renters, but they take those from somewhere else on the estate. Each sim as a whole can only contain a certain number of prims. And I’ve never seen any triple-prim 512s rented out for that little money.

    Any suggestions I have made have been based on land ownership, not renting. All major designers that I’m aware of have a main store somewhere, and don’t solely rent out of malls. Additionally, high price does not equal quality. Besides, what are we to do with the newer or recreational residents who don’t want to spend $500 on an outfit? Send them packing because that’s all that’s available to them in search after you drive out the lower cost or new merchants?

    @94 I would like to second that suggestion. Implementing this project in stages will help to determine early on where potential problem areas lie so improvements can be made before it’s fully rolled out. I think they’re on the right track with this already by including the search button on items in the preview versions so we can practice.

  96. Apollonia Corleone says:

    Is anything being done to address the keyword spam in vendor’s product classifieds? I pull up the most amazing search results only to discover most of them irrelevant because vendors are putting huge word lists into their advertisements. I can understand their enthusiasm for more search hits on their wares, but on the other hand I think searching has become pointless because the hits have almost nothing to do with what they are selling. I think ebay had the same problem years ago and conquered it by reducing seller’s keywords to a limited number of characters.

  97. Anonymous says:

    Again; LL; WHEN WILL YOU LIMIT POSTS? several people here have taken 20% of the posting allotment… GIVE OTHERS A CHANCE TO SPEAK! Maybe some of you should realize there are more on this planet than JUST YOURSELVES! It’s inconsideration that makes this world what it is today 😉

    Hopefully this will level the playing field for those of us that wish to conduct business WITHOUT having to pay 100′ of 1000’s of L$ for and ad… Thanks for a step in the right direction LL 😉

  98. Apollonia Corleone says:

    Xi, as an FYI – there are 15,000 prims total per server/sim. You are right there are standard prim counts of 512sqm/117, 1024sqm/234, etc. that most sim owners adhere to. When you see a low prim sim, or a high prim count sim parcel, it’s because the sim owner has been messing around with the parcel divisions. Buyer beware — on the high prim count parcels, the renter/owner usually has to pay the tier according to the prims – not the size of the parcel. Always read the covenant to be sure.

  99. Anna Gulaev says:

    89: in order to have all those empty prims to set keywords with, you have to use a lot of your prim allocation!!!

    Not exactly. If my store is made out of 165 prims, that’s 165 prims I can use for keyword spamming.

    My largest parcel has about 6000 prims available…

  100. audemar negulesco says:

    I think something should be done with search about land sales, currently it is almost useless to advertise a sale in search as too many announcements are there, furthermore mixed with those of real estate agents. i feel that for this aspect a certain number of sub-categories should be introduced (for instance size, cost, mainland or dreamland, etc). thank you for your work.

  101. Dekka Raymaker says:

    @ 99 Anna Gulaev

    Interesting idea, at first i thought this was stupid, someone could come and buy the store away, but no, they would buy a copy of the wall, a copy of the desk counter, the only thing being textures, if no transfer, you won’t be able to set a particular item for sale, but if transfer, it would be a way for you to loose that unique wall texture, if for some reason someone wanted it, LOL.

    But then again there is still a way to counter this, set your wall to sale for L$500!!!

  102. The Todd says:

    What I thought might be useful, to combat the “search result spam” or such, is to have the ability to rate search results — or have a flag for verified search results that always appear before non-verified results. I realize that would be a beheamoth of an effort to maintain though…

  103. Ann Otoole says:

    actually the spammers will set the building objects to sell contents. not a copy. since there is no contents then big deal. yes this system is dead on arrival already unless Linden Research starts taking serious action against the scammers and criminals operating freely in secondlife.

  104. Anna Gulaev says:

    The botom line is that anything that is free is useless as a relevance criteria. Objects for sale, landmarks, picks, traffic. All useless. All can be gamed. Trivially.

    Google works because they spend a *lot* of effort on their algorithm. If LL thinks they can do it they are probably wasting their time. Heck, they haven’t even closed the leading-spaces game.

    Here’s something that can be done to immediately improve current search results: Make each keyword paid for separately. Sell hair? That’ll cost you for the keyword *hair*. You don’t also get boots, clothes, cyber, textures, fun, scripts, dance, avatars, skin, hippos, club, shoes, belts, prefabs and forty seven other keywords for free.

    There are a number of things LL should at least *try*, not least of which is eliminating traffic or counting only PIO accounts in traffic. But coming up with new features is apparently more fun that fixing the broken old ones.

    There are two things I think prevent LL from seeing things as they really are in this game…

    1) They don’t have to buy land next to all the ad farms, like the rest of us.

    2) They have a whole office full of people who know where to get cool stuff, so they don’t have to look for it.

    Ugly land. Useless search. The two things that most make SL not a serious enterprise, and LL doesn’t live with either.

  105. Tony says:

    Astarte “The above comments on profile search, please note everyone. At the moment IT IS OPT IN, and my understanding on that is that it will remain as OPT IN, so stop griping about it.”

    Wrong, it’s not an opt in, we’re all opted in by default and the latest talk is that there will be no limited profile option either.

    However the bottom line as it stands is that there is absolutely no opt out of the profile search which leads to the question, why? Just what use is a profile search to someone outside of SL? This is a feature that is only useful inworld.

    Object searches on the other hand, can be useful via search outside of the world.

  106. Anna Gulaev says:

    There’s something else that Google does that LL’s hippy attitude will have a hard time stomaching: they discriminate against obvious gaming. Their algorithm is constantly tuned to counter the search engine optimizers. The current SL search is proof that LL will not do that.

  107. Anna Gulaev says:

    105, indeed. A web-based profile search is candy for spammers. It’s not a matter of targetting. Spam isn’t targetted. It’s a matter of name lists. Free and easy name lists. Spam ’em all.

    I’m convinced Sheep Labs, or just determined spammers with some group-joining, search-making, IM-sendinging, landmark-giving bots will make this happen, anyway. And IM and inventory transfers will be rendered useless before LL will act.

  108. Jeska Linden says:

    @ 10
    Signore – I think it would be cool to allow teleport directly to the object that is for sale, it may be something we add in the future.

    @11
    Ann – Currently we’re indexing the name of the object, it’s description and it’s price.

    @12
    Storyof – We do actually support Vista officially now (check the System Requirements page: http://secondlife.com/corporate/sysreqs.php for more info), watch for an official announcement soon!

    @17
    Jayden – You will be able to adjust the checkboxes on all newly created items to determine if you would like them to included in the search, irregardless of whether or not they are set for sale.

    @18
    Jayden – The classifieds system is not being changed, it will still cost Linden dollars to be included in search and the new search will weight classifieds slightly more, also classifieds appear more often in the new search (along the right hand side) so that people purchasing classifieds will get far more value for their ads.

    @20
    Jayden – Changes are not immediate, it may take between 1-3 days for changes to be reflected in the search results. Due to the nature of search indexing, we are not able to make any guarantees about when any changes will appear.

    (more answers coming soon…keep up the good questions!)

  109. Jeska Linden says:

    @ 22
    It’s important to remember that the profile name and registration date information is not tied to your real life identity and is the same information that anybody could see with a free Second Life account. You can opt out of including more information from the search, but we do want to continue to allow people to find one another within Second Life.

    You are able to edit whether or not you want your for-sale (or any other objects) set for sale. The default position is only for the initial population of search. Going forward, you will be able to determine which objects will be set for sale and/or which objects are set to be included in search. You can also set your land parcel to not be included in search, which will prevent any objects listed from being included.

    @30
    The new search should actually help relieve load on the central databases, as it has distributed one of the critical loads (search) to an alternate system.

    @34
    Sling – thank you for your thoughtful comments on relevance and gaming. I’ll be sure to take those back to our search team. We have been thinking about how to decrease the amount of gaming, while still allowing search results to be interesting. It’s definitely a balance!

    @35
    shawnwirtz – While the search results are limited to a certain number per page, you are also able to further sort your search results by category (Events, Groups, People, etc) to help refine your results. We also provide links to other pages with more search results at the bottom.

    @37
    alex – We do not currently plan to remove traffic, but it will no longer be the sole sorting determinant in search – as mentioned before, it will be combined with other information to determine ranking. High traffic somewhat increases the relevance of search results. We will of course be watching what happens during the first few weeks that search is live and can make changes based upon feedback.

    @38
    Sal – sorry that you are not currently able to run the Release Candidate, we hope to have another Release Candidate up soon and will allow time for you to edit your settings.

    @61
    Feed – keywords are not the only thing providing relevance in the new search. As mentioned above, several different pieces of information are involved in ranking results in the new search including inbound links from traffic pages with top-10, top-20, top-1000, etc. places, favorites found in profiles and classified ads.

    @63
    Kara – I’m not sure what you mean in your first question, but there will not be an “Objects” tab in the first iteration of search. But you can further sort your search results by category (Events, Groups, People, etc) to help refine your results.

    @73
    Ceera – as mentioned above, changes are not immediate, it may take between 1-3 days for changes to be reflected in the search results. Due to the nature of search indexing, we are not able to make any guarantees about when any changes will appear. We are exploring other options for vendors, but currently listing more information in the vendor object name and/or description field. We of course will continue to continue our dialog with content creators to determine what the best method of searching objects may be. As a first step, listing for sale objects in search vastly improves their find-ability.

    @74
    Alissa – First, to be clear, the screen shot is just a mock-up of the design, not the final design. We do not currently support mutl-language object names, but that is something we want to add in the future.

  110. Travis Lambert says:

    In case anyone is interested where Lorem Ipsum (the ‘filler’ text used in the sample searches in the image shown) comes from, read this article:

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010216.html

    I was curious myself – thought I’d share what I found 🙂

  111. Luciftias says:

    @24

    Wow, insulting and misinformed. You rock dude!

  112. Tony says:

    Jeska Linden “It’s important to remember that the profile name and registration date information is not tied to your real life identity and is the same information that anybody could see with a free Second Life account. You can opt out of including more information from the search, but we do want to continue to allow people to find one another within Second Life.”

    You’re missing the point somewhat. The point wasn’t about people within Second Life finding profiles, it’s people outside being able to collect information and spamming us that is the issue. We should be able to opt out of having our profiles searchable from outside of Second Life, nobody is complaining about finding profiles within Second Life.

  113. Ceera Murakami says:

    Mall stores that use vendors to sell multiple items won’t make a blip on your new system, with their one-entry each in Search for their paid classified ad. Those will be lost forever in a sea of free single-prim for-sale boxes. May as well close the mall stores, because with only 20 to 50 prims available each, most merchants who sell from malls can’t even display all they sell there at one prim per item.

    No sense in paying LL for base-price classifieds, either, when you can just fill a mall space or parcel with one-prim boxes and get a free line in search for every box. At worst, you pay a single fee for listing the parcel in search, at your main store. Think about it. Set up 1024 M2 parcel filled with 234 single-vendor prims, (or larger parcels with even lore prims), and pay a single 30L$ fee to be listed in Search Places? Or placing 234 individual classified ads, at L$50 for each item that you sell in your vendor? Which would you do?

    I guess I should be really glad that I recently set up a store that isn’t in a mall, where I have thousands of prims at my disposal. I’ll just have to game the system and fill my main store parcel with thousands of one-prim for sale vendors, so I get thousands of lines in search instead of just one.

    Too bad. I spent lots of time and effort making a pretty store, with easy to use vendors. And now I’ll have to replace that with wall after wall of nearly identical single-prim sale boxes. I spent thousands of L$ on a JEVN server and vendors so I could manage multiple stores in multiple sims from a single location. And you’re making that almost completely worthless. At least JEVN does allow me to manage one-prim box sales remotely, so I can update prices from a server. But it will make server management a complete nightmare.

    But this is what you’ll force merchants into. The only way to compete with thousands of listings for one merchant is to have thousands of listings yourself.

    I really pity the poor people who actually expect Search to be useful, as they wade through page after page of nearly identical listings.

  114. Yngwie Krogstad says:

    Regarding the traffic vs. camping debate going on here, and its relevance to the real topic at hand (which is neither traffic NOR camping)…..

    I feel traffic is important. Even in determining relevance in Search listings. No, for those of you who choose to jump on that bandwagon, that doesn’t make me a supporter of camping!

    There are some problems with the current traffic system that I would like to see cleared up, though.

    I’ve gone to many stores where I’d take a look for what I want, and when I’ve found it, I leave. Or if they don’t have it, I leave. I’m not about to spend two hours hanging out in a store just because I’m there, if I’m done shopping. As it stands right now, in order for that store to really benefit traffic-wise from me coming there in the first place, they need to keep me there. If I spend 15 minutes in a store looking for what I want, and then take off when I’m done, as little as 1% of the actual traffic my account can generate will be actually spent at a store. So they’re getting very little from me ever coming there. However, since I hang out at the store I co-own for a very large portion of my time online (easily 95 to 99% of my time online is spent there, most days), that’s where my traffic is going to go.

    So, we need to make traffic less dependent on the amount of time you actually spend somewhere. That would help enormously. And for the time you are there, perhaps add in another factor: Has this person ever MOVED? If you’re just standing in one place, you’re far more likely to be a camper rather than somebody who’s actively shopping. Yes, I know, you can use your camera controls to look around in the store without ever moving. But how many of us really do that?

    Some of these modifications to the traffic system would really help make it more accurate and less likely to merely reflect campers.

    Also, there is one argument against using traffic as a tool to get found in Search. If I’m making hair, just for example, that’s better than any other high-traffic hair store out there, but the store where I’m selling it has only been around for two days, how much traffic is that store going to have? Can it compete with Gurlywood et. al. in actually being seen on the Search pages? Without the ability to compete, how is the word going to get out that I have darn fine hair to get the people in to buy it? That’s just another side of the traffic coin.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

  115. mimi says:

    @95 seems like ive been sleeping making the last posts!

    @112 agree totally. While a new system would need to be invented for SL inworld spamming, adding SL on the web to the already existing spam bots would be much much easier.
    Once you are on a spam list it’s almost impossible to get off..

  116. Farallon Greyskin says:

    Would it be possible to CHOOSE how we see the search results?

    WHen 500 results are returned for the same search and no furhter specification is possible or usefull, it might be nice to choose “Tile” view such as your showing now or “compressed view” where we get 2×30 lines of just the store names till you click on one and then that giant unused space to the left can contain the “details” of the store listing.

    That HUGE waste of space as is currently shown is just not going to cut it I don;t think. THere arent 50 stores on SL there are like 50,000. Even very strict searches are going to bring up 100-500 results frequently. Lokoing at them 10-12 per page is just not going to be good enough.

  117. NiteZelmanov says:

    The discussion about how people will game the search with names and descriptions is pretty worrying. I’m not very familiar with google search appliances, but it seems that the relevance sorting must be seriously hindered in an environment where there is no way to cross-link items. There is no organic data in SL that could be weighed to create a proper “Pagerank” score except maybe actual purchases of the items. Will searches be correlated with subsequent (proximal in time) purchases of items in the results? Even that would get botted. How on earth is relevance going to be calculated?

    I have a question of a more technical nature, though. Items such as vendors change their names and descriptions frequently, for example each time you hit the “next item” button. Will the search include all of the names and descriptions it has recently seen for a particular item, or will it be based on a single snapshot? How far apart are these snapshots?

    I really hope that LL has thought this through. I was under the impression that search was a problem that they were leaving to be solved by the community – something that several different players could take a whack at (and they have!) so that the users could sort out what works and what doesn’t. We’ve already made good progress down that road (ESC’s projects, Felix Wakman’s projects, etc) I really hope we’re not getting some half-cocked search plan shoved down our throats through the official viewer. This search had better kick ass, LL, or you’ll have wasted your money competing with your community and losing.

  118. Amanda Ascot says:

    Jeska @109: Thank you for your reply. I don’t get many of those from Lindens.

    I’m a builder. In fact, I’m in the middle of building a sim (most of one, anyway) right now. I know how to set all that stuff. I’m concerned that 1) a *lot* of other people aren’t, and that 2) “buybots” will become as popular as landbots have been in the past and that 3) things are going to be stolen by them. This has happened with land, already, as a landbot swoops in for a kill during a transaction between two legitimate avatars, or even during the process of setting land for sale when the owner goofs up, for even a few seconds.

    As for the profile issue, as has been pointed out it isn’t about people in-world being able to find me. It’s about spammers out of world having easy access to my profile. Even my name, my avatar’s birthdate, and my account type is valuable information for these people. Combine web-based access to my profile, a search engine like Google (just an example — I happen to like Google), a little clever coding, and libsl, and you have a formula for a spambot the likes of which Second Life has never seen. I do not want my profile information … ANY of it … accessible out of Second Life, and readable by machine, and clearly connected to my Second Life account. Period. End of Story. I cannot afford to have my IMs capped. I cannot afford to take the time to clear out a thousand Blue Windows of Annoyance every time I log on in the evening. If it starts happening I’ll pull up my roots, here, and take my money elsewhere, and I’m pretty sure Linden Lab can’t guarantee that it won’t.

    I think Lindens should spend more time in-world and out of Godmode. Get a taste of notecard or object spam, like many of us have (and this is just with in-world technology), and you’d never be considering this idea. I spent some time investigating an object spammer the other day, since it was happening in a sim where one of my friends lived. He had to leave the sim it was so bad. After I left it took me nearly fifteen minutes to clear out blue windows. Is that really the kind of experience you want users of Second Life to have? I’m sure it’s not, so please do not allow our profiles to be readable over the Internet at large. You guys are clever. I’m sure you can figure it out, even if it means having a separate in-world search engine for the profiles.

  119. Ann Otoole says:

    @114 – the camp system and camp client builders already have the systems built that have the campers roaming randomly. The only solution is elimination of traffic completely. Most of us are savvy enough to know half or more of the online residents are actually sleek client bots that are using up grid resources. However the general consensus is that Linden Research is afraid to make these metrics more factual because it would be quite unattractive for the average concurrency to drop to 20,000 overnight. If Linden research is honest and wants to do the right thing they will either remove traffic measurement or make it a TOS violation to make, sell, use, or be in possession of camping systems. Good people that want to help new residents earn cash can do so via a large variety of methods.

    Another TOS policy add that is direly needed is to make it a TOS violation to be engaged in any rl business involved with email spamming organizations.

    Basically Linden Research needs to do some of that “research” on what is unattractive. Spamming can get you sent to jail in real life. So why does Linden Research support these operations?

    The best way to help new residents is to make enough good quality products designed to assist newcomers make the transition out of the default avatars quickly. (hint: not many people want those default avatars so why hasn’t Linden Research done something about it?)

    Quality, not quantity, is what will make Secondlife better and more conducive to new residents becoming frequent visitors to the grid. This applies to the search system as much as it applies to everything else about Secondlife.

  120. Ceera Murakami says:

    I looked up my main store in the new Search prototype, as well as my mall stores.

    The vendors at all the stores listed whatever single item was displayed on them when they were scanned. One sampled item per vendor. So, for example, at one smaller site where all the clothes that I sell are in a single vendor, it listed a L$50 crusher hat, but not the L$200 dresses that were in the same vendor.

    The prim items set for sale at my main store, like a couple ‘rezzed in world’ examples of the furniture that I sell, were also listed. So I had something like 15 lines for furniture items, and only 4 for the vendors in that store, that contain over 100 other items.

  121. U M says:

    A very serious questen. Why do this realease when we are stressing with the UI to start with? You did not answer my questen. I think I have ask it in a normal easy going way? Gesh…..some feed back!

  122. Me says:

    One thing I am wondering about is the pictures that will be displayed with the search results – I have prim vendors that have multiple textures, so will I have to only use one texture for my boxes in the future? Wouldn’t be too happy about it because it will kill my “shop-design”.

    Then what about actual “display objects”, like furniture and so on? There obviously can’t be a picture of those included in search, which seems to be a great disadvantage. I always try to display as many items as possible, my customers appreciate the fact that they can see “the real thing”.

    I neither have the spare prims nor the space to add a textured prim box for each of my items, so giving my customers a better shopping experience would actually mean a disadvantage for me?

    I just can’t see this work…

    Just think about someone searching for a common item, like “flexi skirt” or “hair” – who really wants to look through thousands and thousands of items?

    Even though the current search could need some improvements I’d much rather get the more “compressed” results than having every single item displayed that is for sale someplace in SL.
    That’s actually why I stopped shopping through ebay when it became too popular, was just too time consuming to flip through countless pages with no end.

    I would have liked to take a look at the RC but like many others I crash while the login screen is still active, so I guess I’ll have to wait for an update first.

  123. Nik Woodget says:

    @119 – Would like to point you to post 69.

    “Martin, just to clarify (as mentioned in Jeska’s original post), the new search project does not involve us outsourcing in-world search to Google, but us integrating Google Search Appliance hardware into our system. Hope that clears that up.”

    Which means, they are using google technology for the search engine inside SL. Not that google can access SL information from outside.

    Which means. Your profile WONT be able to be accessed from outside of SL.

    🙂

    Just thought I’d clear that up for you.

  124. Tegg B says:

    Thx Jeska & Neuro for responding 🙂

  125. eowyn mathy says:

    Please, will you keep the old layout available ?
    (as seen – the “All (Old)” tag on image post #5)
    Thanks

  126. Ziggy March says:

    1 please stop Camping & traffic, it sucks, its useless and stresses out the whole dang place…

    2 will there be SEO building tools available to analize keywords and search count like you would use when building and promoting a website? without it the whole classified will be pretty much useless as it currently is… people filling there ads with keywords for goodies they dont even have or sell only to get some more shows and wasted teleports… there is no real targeting in the whole system… even SEO experts tell me its sucks and find it a big waste of time… so sinse HOOOOOHLE is on board … tell us wassup with that? nice day ha 🙂

  127. Ceera Murakami says:

    Would it be too much to ask for a threaded view, by content owner, and a seperate tab for object search?

    If we could thread the view, so the hundreds of prim boxes for Merchant B can be collapsed to one line, that would help a lot.

    And I *really* don’t want to see the object search mixed in with the classifieds or with other categorized searches. Just in their own tab, or in “All”, please.

  128. Amanda Ascot says:

    Nik @123: “Be aware that the new search results will be available to the public, once it’s released, anyone with a web browser can view them from the Second Life website. The search results may also be picked up by other external search engines such as Yahoo and Google, although we are not explicitly asking search engines to crawl them at this time.”

    and …

    “All profiles are included by default, but if you want to only have a limited profile available, simply uncheck the box next to “Show in Search”. The limited profile includes your avatar’s name, born on date and account type.”

    Which means. Your profile WILL be able to be accessed from outside of SL.

    Those are Jeska Linden’s own words from the other post about this subject, Nik. Every crawler in the world will be all over Second Life’s website the instant this goes live.

    Listen up everyone, please. This is not speculation. Your profiles will be smeared all over the Internet. It’s not a matter of “if”, but a matter of “when”, and you have no choice whether or not your name, avatar birthdate, and account type gets displayed. This is the “limited profile” that will be displayed whether you want it displayed or not. It will happen even if you choose to opt out. We are all going to be viewed by companies that currently spam our email as a ripe, new source of fresh meat. You could easily get hundreds, even thousands, of unwanted advertisements every day, and you’ll have to individually reject every single one of these because they’ll all come up in the upper right corner of your screen as those blue windows most of us dread having to wade through on every log-in, and there is no way for Linden Lab to stop this once it starts. Even if they reverse themselves a few days afterwards the damage will be done. Our information will already be in the spammers’ data bases and it won’t go away but will be shared (read that, “sold”) willy-nilly around the world.

    Speak up now and let Linden Lab know just how crazy this whole idea is, or you may well find yourself having to retire your favorite account just to escape the spam.

  129. Henri Beauchamp says:

    @128

    I agree completely: This new search will be a MAJOR PRIVACY VIOLATION, especially when you add the age-check issue to the problem (for which you will HAVE to give personal, non anonymous info).

    The risk is not in someone being able to see your SL stuff from the web, but rather that this will allow Google and other search engines to -permanently- store every detail of you Second Life, and big companies to exploit this info by cross-referencing it with other databases, possibly revealing your RL identity in the process.

    Such a thing would be FORBIDDEN in France, thanks to the Law “Informatique et Liberté”… Will French residents will be given an opt-out feature ?… They should, if LL is so willing to follow every country Law (which they used as an argument for age check and VAT, for example).

    Again, my SL experience will go worst…

  130. Jamie David says:

    **CLAPPS**
    Thank you Jeska for taking the time to read and respond. WHY? Why can’t this happen more often instead of the constant, here is blog posting and that is the last word. There was a posting 2 weeks ago about how this would stop and there would be more back and forth between the Linden staff and us residents.

    We are still waiting on real explanations of VAT and Verification and a myriad of other things. Promises were made and forgotten. “I thought we answered it” seems to be the feeling from with in the company. That is not the feeling of the residents.

    I do note like others that SL is no longer innovating but chopping off pieces to third parties. Lets get this thing stable, please.

    As to search. I don’t think that pretty picts are that smart when there are so many locations, pictures take up screen real estate. What was wrong with the previous concept that you clicked on a store/location/person and the profile page came up. All these additional graphics wizzing about will slow down some users and in some sad cases incur additional bandwidth charges.

  131. Kathy Morellet says:

    I have to agree with everything Amanda said. LL MUST make this an opt-in selection that is defaulted to OFF, INCLUDING name, birth date and account type. NONE of this info should be arbitrarily dumped to the external web without specific consent by the owner of the avatar in question.

    To do otherwise is simply absurd.

  132. Farallon Greyskin says:

    So this is “Our World” but LL’s marketing?!?

    Add my name to the list of people that strongly suggest (Well I would “demand” but…) that LL make the exposure of ALL information externally to the SL virtual world OPT_IN.

    Not only (but especially) the account info but ALL for sale objects should be OPT-IN. There should be a “include on the web” checkbox that is off for everything. Let the users decide what they want of THEIR OWN PROPERY AND INFORMATION to be displayed publicly.

    For some this will be a real boon, for others a potential nightmare. Let us decide that fate please?

    If this game truly were free (everyone gets free accounts and free 8192 land etc) I could MAYBE see putting up with LL using our cnotent as promotion by making it searchable on the web. But it’s not, I pay a lot to be here and I would like to reserve the option of keeping my private SL life limited to SL thank you.

  133. pantaiputih korobase says:

    @128, totally agree, if this is true

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  135. U M says:

    some questeans never get solved…….not all lindens are this way but a few.

  136. I’m concerned about the idea of waiting several days before changes to my parcel / classified name or description will be reflected in the search results. And who would want to hear, “The object search says your chair costs $10 when you actually charge $100!” because of a delay?

    I give LL lots of credit for making search instantly reflect changes, now. Hooray for instnat gratification!

    I understand the Google engine is designed to spider on its own schedule, but I imagine there are hooks that would allow for higher prioritization. Picture this. I change the description on my parcel. The server code that enters the change into the database does two other things. 1.) Updates the HTML version the spider uses. 2.) Adds that URL to a high-priority queue the spider uses to preempt the usual spidering job.

    Come to think of it, is there even a reason to have the regular spidering cycle? Can’t it all be event-driven? After all, it’s not like a regular spider, that doesn’t get modification notices when web sites change. You have 100% control over the source data and so can send such notices. The spider should not even need to reindex a page that you know in advance hasn’t changed since the last time. I imagine with an event-driven queue, the spider would have far less work to do and your network would thus have less traffic.

    Just a thought. Thanks for taking a new look at search. Keep up the great work.

    – Lavanya

  137. Regarding traffic, I guess I’ve learned through painful experience how best to use it to help my business. Do I want traffic to no longer matter, in favor of other indexes of relevance? Somehow, the alternatives seem poor.

    – Keywords: Names and descriptions are too short to allow for really good information. Please consider increasing this. 1024 bytes for descriptions, maybe?

    – Repetition: Is it really useful to treat “cars cars cars” as higher relevance than “cars”?

    – Picks: I agree with the multitudes here worrying about spoof accounts created just to beef up “links”.

    – Landmarks in Inventory: This will just encourage people to set up roving spam bots to give out LMs to everyone in scan range or, worse, everyone the bot can find in various online user registries.

    Traffic does have a few benefits. For one, camping chairs cost their owners money, so high traffic is often at least a proxy for marketing dollars spent. People who get them tend to try to focus their content because it costs money, as such. Granted, money spent is not a proxy for quality. You can’t really index that, though.

    Or maybe you can. Perhaps a future project would involve voting. Weren’t there little green touch kiosks for that long ago? Perhaps they can come back. Although that doesn’t help a group. Maybe an alternative would be to put, right in the search, a thumbs-up / thumbs-down button pair next to parcels, objects, classifieds, and groups so anyone can give their two cents. Maybe scripts could call an llGetParcelVote(key AgentKey) to a user who is on the same parcel to record a vote, instead of the one-size-fits-all green kiosks.

    One interesting idea would be to track the number of users who have made purchases on a parcel as a relevance index. Let’s say 20 people came to your store and bought items (or otherwise paid machines) in a given day. It doesn’t matter that they paid a total of $2500 or made a total of 52 payments. Only the unique number of paying customers matters. It’s not perfect, as one could create loads of alts to pay themselves to spoof it, but it has potential.

    Just some more thoughts.

    – Lavanya

  138. Jeffrey Chaplin says:

    Looks good Jessy…

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  141. Ceera Murakami says:

    Well, they started the release of this with the new client this week. And ignored all our comments, as usual.

    Profile info stll defaults to maximum published disclosure. You have to opt out in your profile to restrict what gets released to their web-based search. Ai least we have a little time to change the settings and opt out before Search goes live.

    Objects that are currently on a parcel that is listed in Search > Places, and which are for sale, default to “Show In Search”. You have to manually locate and turn off any objects you don’t want to have listed.

    So… When this new Search goes live, every single “Sell contents of box” prim on every listed parcel will get listed in Search, generating tens of thousands of identical or nearly identical entries, for “Cheongsam Dress, Red”, “Cheongsam Dress, Pink”, ad nauseum, for every color variation and store location that that ‘sells from boxes’ merchant has.

    I checked my main store, as it is set up today. If left in default status, I would have had 8 items listed individually. 7 were individual furniture items that I have on display as samples, and one would have been a duplicate of a lamp, since there are two copies of the same lamp in the store, on opposite sides of the room. Meanwhile, my array of 75 products that I sell from 3 scripted JEVN vendors would get three random listings, based on what happened to be on display when those three vendors were scanned. And 65 of the items I sell would get no listing at all.

    Meanwhile, “Suzy Boxseller”, who sells every one of her 75 items from a huge wall of individual prim boxes that sell copy of the contents? She gets 75 lines in Search for every one of her store locations, just for the one low price of listing her land in Search. Great for her. And a tremendously unfair competitive advantage, harming vendor-based merchants.

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  143. Rene Erlanger says:

    What a mess this new Search will end up being. I read all 142 posts with great interest.

    Queestion : Do LL ever actually listen to any user opinions?

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  150. KayO says:

    Please don’t get rid of traffic or camping. Yes there are a lot of bots and it creates lag in the system. But without campers you have a stagnant economy. If you want to get rid of camping, than it shows that you know nothing about the basics of a working economy, whether virtual or not. Simply put the people that camp are the people that shop. Why do you think they are so ferocious about camping?!? Its not to just have a big linden balance. It’s to buy things!! So an end to camping would be an end to shopping and an end to shopping would be an end to showing off your new toy. And that would be an end to traffic in SL and an end to full Sims. How long would you want to play in second life as a noob trapped in freebie skins and clothes. Because lets face it the reality is that most of the campers are young people. (i.e. no credit cards or cant afford it etc) And without young people in Second Life you might as well call it Second Death. So go ahead and start building your virtual tumbleweeds for your virtual Ghost Town. 😛

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