Update on mainland supply and auctions

I just wanted to take the opportunity to update everyone on mainland supply and the new auction system.

Those that have taken a look at the new auction site will have noticed that there hasn’t been much land up for sale since it was launched late last month; there are two reasons for the modest level of supply.

Firstly, we have had a few minor glitches that needed to be resolved – we think most of the issues have been fixed now but have been taking it slowly whilst working to get auctions working smoothly. Secondly, average mainland price has dipped to around L$6.2 per meter and is remaining fairly flat at that rate, therefore we have not been supplying many whole regions for auction.

Going forward, we will continue to hold off on providing any new full regions for auction, at least for the next couple of weeks – however we will be increasing the amount of abandoned land we recycle, so expect to see a larger number of smaller parcels (both USD$ and L$ auctions) which has the added benefit of cleaning up the existing mainland areas.

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Concierge, Land. Bookmark the permalink.

77 Responses to Update on mainland supply and auctions

  1. Aminom Marvin says:

    Thanks for being honest about the holding low baseline price being the reason for the hiatus in new auctions.

  2. Samantha Glume says:

    Yes, thank you for keeping us up to date.

  3. We could say that confident could return bit by bit.
    I haven’t had any technical issues lately, tickets are very well and quickly solved. All in all this looks promising.
    And it’s also good news that LL is honest. Good. Let’s hope it will stay that way.

  4. Thanks LL, we will cross our virtual fingers and see if it helps land prices.

  5. Kahni Poitier says:

    Thank you for the update, and not sinking land values to $2L/m.

  6. Emondrell Raymaker says:

    Hmm, does this land-recycling program include the Teen Grid? There are a multitutde of land parcels whose owners haven’t visited them since late ’06, just sitting there with 0 return time getting spammed like crazy. I can also think of numerous Linden-owned non-protected parcels that would be much more fun in Resident hands.

    @5, that’s the average land value in the TG hehe.

  7. Buster McNutt says:

    i love mainland so much i married it.

  8. What about keeping some of the abandoned land and just leaving it with a couple of trees, some ferns. Hmmm NYC’s central park is a good example of what had been done in RL. Every single meter of land doesn’t HAVE to generate income, or does the Linden business model require that. Linden roads, ponds – wow a public Linden surfing beach all would provide value to a quality Second Life.

  9. Sling Trebuchet says:

    Shipstone sim
    Before that goes to auction, you need to cut a Protected triangle in the SW corner.
    Otherwise there will be no free passage along the Southern edge of Corsica.

  10. Harwood Hax says:

    i think what could greatly help as per “the community” is to get ALL of the abandoned land up on the auction block, as well as finding a way for players now to be included in the new auction system….

    if were going to change it over to an ebay style, (which.. despite recent flames about the idea is a GOOD thing.. so long as we dont get tagged with MORE paypal fees for doing it) i think it could REALLY stand to help if it is opened up to players as a community.. it would stop a LOT of things WRONG with the land sale process as it is.

    as it is.. someone puts a price on their land.. in order to sell (and not just get lucky) .. those lands tend to slip in price.. ok.. this in itself is a good thing towards the economy… BUT what tends to happen (for about two months now.. i have been actively ~as in every day~ watching prices of land.. various sizes.. for my own reasons) is that the entire grid around you slowly slips lower in price to beat out their neighbor.. the area slips into a bit of a depression in price… and before “the community” is made aware of it falling to or below 6.0/m … the land baron’s bots come in and pick up anything that hits that low… pushing the price back up to 4000/6000 a parcel.. and the surrounding areas push their prices up that high or higher.. thinking they can get it (and by coincidence and chance.. a few might) but what REALLY happens.. is that those lands sit on a standstill … and will stay that way for months….. people looking will simply look elsewhere for the next depression.. (lets face it.. mainland is mainland.. only three differences.. flat, mountain, and bayside) leaving the rest of that area to rot.. landbarons not worried.. they have more land to sell.. and think it will just drive up mainland price. really.. all this does is encourage people to sell smaller parcels (which a good amount eventually turn into ad-farms) leaving a no-win situation for anyone trying to MAKE USE of the rest of the sim because of lag-inducing 200m tall flashing and spinning blocks on parcels of land that cost WAAAY too much (and will take YEARS to re-join.. because the person who BOUGHT it for 6000/parcel will WANT 6000 or more…)

    ok.. tangent aside… what im saying is .. if the public was brought into this new auction system as a whole… maybe we can see more good sized parcels actually being SOLD for a fair market value, a LOT higher turnover on 4096sqm + lands… thus MAYBE making mainland a bit less laggy… as it is.. the consummation of 16m lots is only growing.. given a year .. its only going to continue to grow.. and make mainland a painfully laggy place to be… in all honesty.. its hard enough to stay there now… and if it continues.. i cant imagine what it will be like a year from now. yes.. dont bother to tell me “move to an estate” … i have estate land.. but that dosent change the fact that the mainland needs a HUGE makeover…

    no.. i dont have all the answers… just the one.. will it stop people from wearing an entire full set of scripted 1,000 prim clothing?? probably not.. (i myself go barefooted if not naked half the time, thank you very much ;p ) and even then.. its not a full answer.. people have the right to colonize lands, change prices, play with the economy to make a profit, advertise their buisiness, or make a living advertising other peoples.. but if were going to do anything to save the mainland.. SOMETHING needs to change… and i think a “central” place on the HOMEpage of SL where people can go to find land, sell land, and just get information about it (without having to hunt for an hour) would be a GREAT start.

    .. just a thought
    .. and a rant..
    .. and a tirade..

    .. and a stab at land-barons
    (ok, i meant that last one!!)

    H.H.

  11. Tony says:

    Well recycling abandoned land is a very sensible idea and helps to assist in ensuring the new system is running smoothly.

    However VAT has hit a lot of people in the pocket and with people expecting pricing changes soon (not this quarter but maybe next) I don’t think people will be rushing to buy land until they have some sort of idea of how much it’s all going to cost them.

    Dithering over your pricing structure is causing more harm than good at this moment in time with regards to land.

  12. Desmond Shang says:

    Sounds great Jack and it sounds like a good, responsible land management plan. That will help all of us.

  13. Zanthor Shiras says:

    I’d love to see a notification system that sends all of a sim’s residents an IM or email to let them know when/if abandoned land is to be resold or auctioned. Parcel owners within a sim have a vested interest in prims , lag, etc and should get some kind of notification. Don’t you agree?
    Zan
    (Search Starlightz to find me in-world)

  14. Jewels Boa says:

    Thank you for telling us something and thank you for not completely wiping out our investment in SecondLife land.

    I hope that Govenor Linden takes a look at the overall land design and provides a way for us to sail the oceans around the continents. In too many places there are roadblocks to travel by sea.

  15. tracey says:

    i personally think you have killed of secondlife by pure greed, land tiers are too high, now with VAT added for europeans at approx 17-25% on top of prices most people are leaving and moving to the competition..

    If you had the foresight, you would have set SL up as an offshore company with offshore servers, therefore you could have allowed casinos, not needed to register for VAT..

    Maybe a good accountant is what is needed..

    I for one am selling off plots to reduce my tier fees, we were going to buy a couple of island, however we have put that on hold..

    You may be good at creating a world, but I really think you need to re-think the business aspect on this…

    Reduce tier fees to keep customers..

  16. Thanks LL
    ThanksSL

    Thanks Thanks Thanks

    Cris

  17. Argent Stonecutter says:

    There’s nothing seriously wrong with the current land price, it’s within L$1/m2 of where it was before the speculation bubble. It’s lower than the average I’ve paid for my land, too, but I expected that the bubble would eventually collapse and didn’t buy land for L$(ludicrous-amounts), so it’s not THAT much lower. It’s a damn shame more people didn’t follow the same rule.

    @13: There was discussion on the forums back before the Lindens abandoned them about having the reclamation script do something like that. I think it was Andrew Linden who said he was planning to do something to let adjacent landholders get first-refusal… but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  18. Argent Stonecutter says:

    @14: Yes, there really need to be Openspace bridges between the three eastern continents. They’re close enough that two sets of Openspace sims would do it. Cleaning up the big gap in the Southern continent could be done with Openspace sims as well.

  19. Novis Dyrssen says:

    @ #15 – I wish I could agree, but… what competition? Sadly, there isn’t any that offers the same currently…

  20. Fluf Fredriksson says:

    /me chimes in that residents within a region are probably the best suited to buying and making good use of recycled land. If not some kind of early warning, then some method for setting up an email notification from the auctions if something comes up in a particular sim would do.

  21. Lukas Mensing says:

    Producing land when needed and selling it in auction is normal, Linden Lab does money through tier…its free economy
    Producing More and more land to “manipulate” and lower artificially land prices is “Planed” economy and has in general strange consequences.
    Lots and lots of regions have been produced and auctioned when the map was and still is “yellow” in many continents…
    Do you really think that lowering land price is a good thing?
    Does’nt work in real world, why should it work in SL?
    People buy land as an investment, small or big, and do not like to see the producer of this land selling lots of it to lower its price!!
    Imagine God producing more planets to lower land price ))

  22. Any comment on how the mainland LOST a bunch of land in the last statistics? LL has been strangely(or maybe not so strangely) quiet on the anomalies in the statistics.

  23. Inevitably Stardust says:

    Instead of rolling new sims how about starting a program to upgrade existing Class 4 servers to class 5s. This would help to eliminate the current situation where land in the older sims is considered second rate. Altrernatively, a lower tier charge on class 4 server land would be a good compensation.

  24. JS says:

    Sorry Jack, didn’t you mean that you oversaturated the land market and didn’t understand the math involved in land sales. This is not the result you expected because you didn’t watch or understand the numbers. I hope it picks back up soon but if it doesn’t someone is to blame *caugh*

  25. kenny Stringer says:

    Thanks for up Date

  26. Bubba B says:

    I agree with 13 & 20. I try to check the unused bits of land around my place to see if they have become abandoned, but I have other things to do and cannot constantly be checking. The extortionist ad farmers evidently do not have anything else to do other than check for abandoned plots so they can ugly up the region and charge 1000x market value to the neighbor whose SL experience has suddenly been ruined by spinning ads out their front door.
    I suggest that LL place their own ads on recently abandoned land. The signs could say “Land reverted to Govenor Linden. Set to be auctioned on (date)”

  27. Ricky Yates says:

    Thanks for the straight and honest update, Jack.

    Sounds like a good plan.

  28. bobbyb30 zohari says:

    So basically, the point of this “UPDATE” was to inform us that you want to yet again raise the cost of land prices.

    Why can’t you be straightfoward and simply say : “WE WANT TO RAISE LAND PRICES”???????!!!!!!!!!

  29. Rene Erlanger says:

    Well for a change i can actually applaud LL on 2 counts : stopping this insane flooding of more new SIM’s and instead recycling the old abandoned ones back into game.
    This has to help somewhat, especially now that Europeans are either selling or abandoning smaller plots on Mainland.

    @ #15 tracey – I agree with some of your post.
    I have said this a while back–> Tier costs vs General game performance.
    Is it really worth it? If LL wants to stimulate the economy
    then the next price change on Tiers should be downwards…..bringing back the Europeans into the land market and making it more affordable for residents from those countries whose national earnings are much lower than that of the States. The real issue about land owning has always been the monthly re-occuring charges -The Tiers…….that’s the killer!

    By lowering tiers across the board, makes it more affordable to a greater number of players….means increase land sales—> increase number of tier collections on Mainland for LL—-> increases demand for houses & custom builds—-> increase demand for furniture—> increase in long term players thus an increase on purchasing other products like fashion & AV products…..it trickles down throughout the economy.

    VAT unfortunately we are stuck with, no matter where in the world LL is located. To avoid a gambling ban LL would have to register its company in another country that allows it. The logistics and cost of moving company, it’s servers and the rest of the spiel is far too great and not realistic. It still would not help American users, as by law they cannot gamble online regardless where that game functions from.

    Regarding the competition, there are a few that are now at beta stage. I have downloaded Hipihi and have visited their world. Flown around, walked around, swam around..etc. To be honest it’s still a bit flakey and it boots you off the same way SL does. The Chinese interface does not help the learning curve as you require your Adobe English translation file closeby If HipiHi introduced multiple language interfaces (I’m sure they will do) then it should enhance the experience somewhat. In reality i feel that most of these rival platforms will have their issues as well………although a stable and functionable platform would go a long way towards satisfying many VW’ers!!

    This time next year, there will almost certainly be a rival platform or two up and running……..that is a given……just like Death & Taxes.

  30. Rene Erlanger says:

    The FPS rate on HipiHi platform which was almost deserted…..hovers between 7 and 10. So they still have a lot of work in that department.

  31. Hi Jack, while you guys are waiting, could you please beef up the auction system to restore some of the functionality that used to be there? Like, having a quick way to see completed auctions, including the names of the bidders?

  32. Jim Perhaps says:

    I don’t know much about economics but I do believe that just the lack of affordable land, either for residential or commercial use can eventually slow down econimic growth.

    I have had the good fortune of buy land when it was cheap. I do not think if I were coming ino SL now I would bother to part with $10L a square meter. The less land I have the less prims. The less prims the less I would be able to purchase to place on my land. So I think if the land prices go to high it hurts merchants.

    Maybe I am wrong. Certainly would appreciate any comments on this for my general education.

  33. JS says:

    hi Jim, you are wrong. ava price of land is about 6.2L$/sqm and dropping.

  34. johnny says:

    @15 well said tracy i agree you tax me more than i make the tax should be on the profit not the tier fee

  35. Hewitt Huet says:

    I second, third and fourth (can you fifth something?) the applause for the recycling of abandoned parcels. About time!

  36. Dekka Raymaker says:

    @ 21 Lukas Mensing Says:

    “Imagine God producing more planets to lower land price”

    A few things about God that I’m certain about, he never sold land, he never made promises he couldn’t keep, he filled in all the spaces on the land and ‘made’ another 10 planets in our little space, which he originally used to charge teir for, but look at them now, barren!

  37. Sinuna Falta says:

    It is amazingly difficult to figure out how land and tier actually work in SL. I’ve been in SL for several months now. I’ve met land OWNERS who don’t understand their own tier payments. The clasified advertising is simply fradulent.. every piece of property is advertised as $0/m2 simply to get to the top of the list. And the price advertised is not necessaraly related to the price that is being asked.
    I simply gave up trying to understand the auction system.
    Everyone bitches about the Land Barrons, but I think what happens is that when someone finally manages to understand how land and tier work in SL they have such a huge advantage of information over everyone else that they can’t resist the temptation to profit from it.

    I think that the Lindens have been in SL for too long and are unable to see the forest because of all the trees. Make land ownership understandable and perhaps people will choose to buy some.

  38. The XO says:

    Translation:

    We’ve got a flatliner! Erm.. ok, lets not supply any more mainland in an attempt to boost the faultering economy. PS: Get em while their cheap on the scrapheap, erm, sorry… mainland

    Greenspan?…. No, you don’t even come close to him!

  39. alf lednev says:

    29. yes the EUer’s are stuck with VAT. The only thing certain in any life is “birrth, death, taxes and lost data” BUT LL could restructure itself so EUers paid only the EU Taxes and NOT the US ones as well. Think LL Office in UK, LL wants to be global, it lacks the capacity to think Golbally still. Hopefully it will grow up quickly.

    Land prices, LL controls the world and controls when land is released to ensure profits are maintained for itself. Repeats yes, its Our world.

  40. Luna Sobocinski says:

    #37 Sinuna… When looking at the Search window (for land) click where it says “All Types” and choose “For Sale – Mainland” and then put 512 in the “Area >= sq.m” box. After that, the results will make more sense.

  41. Darren Oates says:

    Thanks for the update most dont understand that the only way you guys could bring down the price of land was to flood the market until it poped. But now it will stable out and you can release land to keep it stable in the future.. Lets get them full sims back gives this platform a better feeling than having a load of forsale signs as neighbours :} i have been in sl for just over 12months and the changes have been good i deal in land and still enjoy doing so. Keep up the great work

  42. This was a good blog post. Good work Jack. I’m glad LL is holding off on supplying more sims. I’m sure someone would buy them but the market really is oversaturated at the moment. I am sure many renters and landowners will be overjoyed to see the abandoned land recycled and cleaned up !

  43. The XO says:

    O Greenspan, Greenspan! Wherefore art thou Greenspan?

  44. Jayden B says:

    Thanks for the communications and thanks for being honest.

    If you supply land in the same way you supply the lindex, print and remove (is it possible to remove sims?) then maybe you can stabilise the price as the L$ is itself stable.

    When the prices in land start to rise above L$6/m release more land, when they fall below L$6/m restrict supply.

    You would still need a way to stop the landbots, for that a captcha or the requirement to be on land for a certain time before buying.

  45. Jayden B says:

    Wow, editing my post Lindens!

    You removed the whole bottom section.

    NVM I will start a group in world with that name.

  46. Blake Dwi says:

    These comments used to hit 100 and close in less then an hour. Now it takes days… Residents losing interest?

  47. amilie anatine says:

    good news! recycle the abandoned land.. wow sounds like your finally cleaning up that messy apartment. expecting company? LOL

  48. Pingback: Second Life News for October 19, 2007 « The Grid Live

  49. Weedy says:

    Wow ……talk about double standards.

    When it comes to Burning Life and forums etc. other things, the postion at LL is “these things are better managed by the residents themselves”

    Then on the other hand, you take away public land from residents, much of which has been sitting for a year and a half in unpaid tier, taking Linden staff away from more important tasks and leaving neighbors with eyesores, banlines and other annoyances.

    Yet another two-faced display of poor management. Taking money and jobs away from residents who were active in recycling abandoned land alot faster and more efficiently than what your doing now…

    Greedy thats all it is, stealing from your own residents.

  50. Weedy says:

    By the way… Andrew claimed LL staff “spent a considerable amount of time dealing with abandoned land issues”. On one hand saying mistakes with abandoned land are bad, yet landbots do it all the time to residents by stealing land from residents who make mistakes…. yet that’s okay. in BOTH cases there was adequate warning as to the land owners actions, yet LL takes work away from responsible people, who performed ethically.

    It’s a classic case of co-option to take money and jobs away from honest, hard working residents.

    Unless every resident watches auctions like a hawk…which they don’t, the only people who will benefit from this auction system will be the ad cutter extortionists, whom I guarantee will buy the greater portion of the small plots, especially along the roadsides. The old sims are no longer safe from this.

    Flip-flop flip-flop flip-flop.

  51. Jeffery Feingold says:

    That explains the junk land behind my store and the Moondust sim (It’s been an “auction” sim for a while now).

    This is all good news to me.

  52. Chris says:

    [Quote] Secondly, average mainland price has dipped to around L$6.2 per meter and is remaining fairly flat at that rate[/Quote]

    I think you mean to say “We’re losing a chunk of the EU premiums because of poor judgement in implementation. We’ve lost 9 out of 10 global players who ever made an avatar for reasons including making their land worth, in most cases due to when the boom happened, a mere fraction of what it was paid for. Therefore we’re recouping the losses by recycling the abandoned land which is generating $0 fees.”

    You are reaping what you proverbially sowed. Learn from this, slow changes will keep players – radical changes make them think instability is rife (in the company itself, not just the grid). You need to start to think long range. The fly by night changes, and inability of the player to think in terms of future is a VERY inhibitive factor in wanting to invest here. People are asking for tier structure for 2008… it’s only a few months off – do you not have a ‘going forward’ plan for a mere few months? Regarding your self-pat on the back for increasing premiums on the metrics, perhaps that should wait til those of us on annual’s fail to sign up again. The change happened in VAT at the end of the month, I’d be more concerned on the trend from here on since you just hiked the fees on 50% of your active membership and won’t be forthcoming with where you’re going in ’08 and beyond…

  53. Tegg B says:

    Any chance of using old class 3&4’s to join the continents with water sims?

  54. Accasbel Barrymore says:

    Uncertainty:

    There are a number of unnamed all-water sims in West and Central Corsica.
    A few are labelled ‘Protected Land’ but are still unnamed, which introduces an element of uncertainty as to their future status.

    Many are just unnamed ‘Empty’ and are a gamble for anyone who buys beside them as the ‘ocean’ might end up as a giant floating neon/Gothic castle effectively tied up beside what they thought was their dock/beach . That doesn’t stop land sellers from describing their plots as ‘Protected for ever’.
    LL put themselves in the position of severely annoying some people who are prepared to pay a premium for what they incorrectly assumed was beside a Linden water sim.

    Why be coy about the status of these water sims?
    Why add to the uncertainty of the whole SL experience?

    While on the ocean topic:
    There are a few corners of the older continents where, as #9 above for the Shipstone sim, free passage has been cut off for lack of a small protected strip. A few open space sims spread around the coast would open things up.

    Oh!
    And scripts on the oceans would be nice.

    And yes, I would like a drink with that please 🙂

  55. Prim Oversized says:

    test

  56. Prim Oversized says:

    yeah, great, writing 20min on a post and it is not getting posted. That´s the 2nd time now in 2d. Geez

  57. Rene Erlanger says:

    @ 52
    Good post Chris, Alas i fear all our comments or suggestions will fall on deaf ears. I believe LL has there own agenda to follow.
    As a European myself, i won’t be investing anymore money into SIMs or land……infact its likely i’ll sell most of it, if there’s another Tier increase in Jan.

    I know a lot of Europeans have already started dumping or selling SIMs just from being a vendor in various EU owned Malls. It’s a shame….as lot of time and money had been invested……and with one stroke all these aspirations have been shot to pieces. 😦

    Although i’m unlikely to leave SL completely, I do believe in not having all my eggs in one basket so to speak….and am actively moving funds and liquidised assets out of SL completely.

    I’ll always be grateful to SL for giving me that 3D virtual world experience…and feel it will stand me in good stead for when these other VW platforms arrive (and it will happen!). That’s the big plus i’ve gained from SL……the rest and what has happened over the last few months has been a nonsense!

    PS Lets not forget folks….we’ve still got Age verification to come! That should be interesting………..not!!

  58. John Horner says:

    I think that the whole of Second Life has economic issues that are not going to be easy to resolve. Furthermore (and as the population of Second Life) is more or less overwhelmingly US or EU based, you will face further challenges due to the real life sub prime credit issues that are emerging. To be frank if disposable income is falling it is a fact of life people will trim what they deem is non core to their life, and in fairness you do not need to be a large land owner to participate within Second Life.

    I have several suggestions that may mitigate Second Life’s current issues.

    1) Locate some servers off shore, the UK would be a good base – allow them to be connected to the main grid and assessable to all. Allow gaming in these Sims with clear warnings that US based citizens should not participate, this to be written within the land covenants. These Sims could be both mainland and private islands, however to protect Linden Labs you should insist such private island owners provide absolute proof of ID which is robust and is the equal or better of UK based VOI requirements
    2) Regulate Financial Services within SL. Insist that those people who either advertise or provide financial services within SL are authorised to provide such services in real life. In particular take a long hard look at so called “virtual banks” and “virtual stock markets”. Ginko for example was a difficulty waiting to occur having the potential to take nearly one million US dollars from ordinary folks pockets, and I am reasonable sure it will not be the last. This must be a potential negative within the SL economy. Regulation might encourage real life financial professionals to re-review Second Life.
    3) Look to achieve a quantum dramatic improvement in terms of software speed within Second Life for selected and new regions at a premium cost. I am not a software expert BUT I also play WoW……the performance there is stunning. Yes, I am aware a good part of the WoW universe is present on my hard disk with necessary data on a day-to-day basis streamed in. Duplicate that for SL Sim owners who would be prepared to accept the cost and software building/construction constraints. Contain the information within the SL official client software. Doing that might attract both game and corporate accounts. For example a SL WoW clone, or a super fast Dell Island.
    4) Offer a type of charter membership. In short for a one off up front payment to Linden Labs offer dramatically reduced land tier on say up to 4096 square meters. Also consider tier discounts on island ownership where the Estate owner has say more than 20 Sims, this might encourage more private estates administered by the owner and reduce day to day work by Linden employees

  59. Prim Oversized says:

    ok, LL i give up. Why can´t i post more than “test” or a 2 liner here?

    Please do not remove oversize prims to make people buy more land!

    May i say this? Or will my comment held back again?

    Anyway fed up with this now

  60. Rene Erlanger says:

    Good points Jack

    Yes, the credit boom……we have a major problem here in the UK. I was alarmed to see on the News that some people are paying their mortgages via credit cards…eek!!!

    At the end of the day, no matter where you’re from in this world, it’s all about disposable income from your monthly earnings. Can you afford tier or rent per month for a bit of virtual land or not?

    Fo me $295 (+VAT) per month for a 256m x 256m plot of land, no longer makes sense. If some other provider came along and could offer me something similar at say $100 p/mth…..it’s a no brainer.

  61. Vic says:

    @ #15 Tracy

    Yes I agree with you. I’m waiting for Google to get their system on the market so I can get away from here.

    I was planning to buy two or three islands in the near future, but that is completely on hold now. The gambling ban and VAT for Europeans has sent SL into a brick wall. I’ve almost sold all my land now, when the last has sold I’ll be leaving with better things to waste my money on.

    The average price per sq m was 17+ when I bought most of mine, shame this action wasn’t taken then… but rather than that, my land has been devalued by almost 2/3rds and my fees have increased considerably.

    There is a hidden (or not so hidden) message in some of these posts…. lower fees, move offshore, bring back gambling, stop charging VAT for something that should be exempt – all good for business!

  62. HeeLan Beattie says:

    I can’t help it, but since this thread has come to deal quite a bit with the VAT issue, there is one question I’d like to ask the Lindens (and those who know more about taxes than I do). Products and Services are – we have read – obvious targets to VAT.
    But…
    Do people have to pay Taxes (VAT) on membership Fees?
    If the answer is a pure and single two-letter word, a new question will arise:
    Wouldn’t it be a great idea to reconstruct the economic system and SL to becoming a club for people with a common interest, and only charge membership fees from all of us?

  63. JohnPhilip Allen says:

    I can see where this is heading, downward! SL was a fun test, it got serious about gamng, that brought out the vermin who ruined it. The SL came back and started putting in rules. Rule breakers came in and continued destroying. The the US Feds stepped in and stopped some problems. Now the Europeans who were a huge part of SL’s economy are getting out. Soon more people will reaslize that SL is not worth it. SL,,, save yourself… repent to your mistakes…start cleaning up as you suggested. Here are some more suggestions.

    1. Do not allow anyone to buy land and then split it below 512 sq/m. That makes only land a mess and causes lag.

    2. No more rotating or animated forsale signs. Reguire a specific size and shape and wording. In other words, SL controls all sale of land. Animation causes lag too even if it is small it it a drain on the mainframe.

    3. Allow the initial tier to start at 1024, not 512. This will bring in more people who want to buy land. You cannot increase prims without really bogging down the server per sq/m (it really cant be done so stop asking). This will allow us nonowners who want land to buy a good size to do more with. (Then no smaller plot that 1024)

    4. Start placing paths in between parcels. I am not talking roads but simple 1 m wide path that is only owned by SL. It is prevent building on someone elses property and give a RL feal to SL. Come on, unless you live in the desert or mountain wilderness, country or in a real rural place in RL, there are paths and sidewalks.

    I want to buy land but I am not interested in sub 0 lot lines, animated adds, no real boundries, and small pieces only good for an outhouse.

  64. Noel O'Kelly says:

    @ #37 -totally agree! As a new SL person, the whole land buy/sell system is immensely confusing, and is compounded by sellers claiming to “sell” at 0 per sq/m. Even the auction is confusing – in RL eBay you would be given a full description of the product, full details of the seller, and full details use allowed, prims allowed, and what tiers apply. The nearest RL equivalent is that people are buying “leasehold” interest in property – and in RL there would be terms and review dates on the lease (tier) payments.

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  67. OddesE Oh says:

    Well I have to say I am glad that Linden Labs has stopped churning out Sim after Sim of mainland in the auctions.

    It’s funny to see that there are people here that think that land is too expensive and also people that think it’s to cheap.

    Personally I think that the price of the land is not *that* important. After all, even at L$ 10, a typical plot will still be much cheaper to buy than it is to hold for a year or so. Meaning, the tier fee is the real cost, not the land price.

    But what I find worrying is that I feel there is a trend to keep moving towards new, empty sims and abandon the old ones.

    In a healthy land economy, the following things should hold true:

    1) Larger plots should be less expensive per sqm than smaller ones
    2) Developed land should be worth more than empty land
    3) The amount of land in use should be far greater than the amount of land for sale.

    All these three things are often untrue. Buying small plots seems ok at first, but you soon find out all the disadvantages. Neighbours with land bans (even though they are never around), add land all around, neighbours that lag the sim etc. If you look at the land sales, you’ll see that the price goes UP for larger plots, up to a certain point, before it starts going down again. This makes sense in a strange sort of way, because owning more land means more control over Sim performance, which in turn increases the probability to keep the land nice and hence valuable.

    What I see happening is that land barons buy sims on the auctions and cut them into small parcels and then sell them. At first the land looks great, but as more plots are sold (and more ugly stuff built), it gets less interesting to move in there. At some point, the land becomes worth less and less as it gets more and more difficult to sell it, due to all the ad land etc. By that time, the land barons have sold most of it and have bought new sims on the auctions. This moves through the world like a fire, leaving behind it a trail of ugly, add-ridden mainland, with huge pieces of land for sale. And what does that do for SL visitors? the people that don’t have land and aren’t around much? That ‘surf’ the 3D internet so to say? They are land owner’s customers, and they are getting a more and more boring experience, having to wade to miles and miles of empty land to find an interesting venue.

    Apart from the land prices, LL should look at the amount of land on the market in determining if they should auction more new sims. There is soooo much land for sale right now that you can hardly defend creating even more.

    Also the fact that estate owners that bought early have a BIG advantage on those that are buying now doesn’t help. I’m in Europe and bought late. This means I am paying 19 percent taxes over tier fee that in itself is 50% higher than that of someone in the US that bought early. I’m paying US$ 300 + US$ 60 VAT = US$ 360, compared to the early US buyer that is paying US$ 200,-… How can I compete??

  68. Vladi Benelli says:

    I find it a good idea to sell the abandoned land, maybe put the newbie land back and give newbie abandoned land?

  69. Vladi Benelli says:

    and put captcha’s on land sales to stop land bots!
    and PLEASE disable L$0/sqm land, or land of 1 sqm for L$1 that you can’t buy.

  70. Magdalena Stardust says:

    Here are some thoughts if you all can handle it…

    Firstly, the gambling ban was inevitable. I knew, when I first logged on over a year ago, that it was only a matter of time. What all you who are saying, “just move offshore” fail to realize is that the result of such a move would be that the credit card companies would simply revoke Linden Labs merchant account, because that is the law in the US. Secondly, that’s a *good thing*, not so much the stupid law, but the fact that it resulted in the removal from SL of the horrible, unregulated, lag-inducing gambling objects. Like I said, I knew from day one that the gambling wasn’t going to last long. Even the European countries that have no problem with online gambling would have eventually come down like a ton of bricks on it once they realized that what was completely unregulated and subject to fraud and abuse by money laundering operations.

    Secondly, all the people bitching about VAT need to redirect their anger to their elected representatives because that is the only way that that situation has any chance of changing. If you expect LL to simply continue to absorb the cost of VAT, then you are more foolish than the people who liked to put their extra linden dollars into a sploder or some other black box virtual slot machine with no trusted oversight to determine if the thing is programmed to ever pay out at all.

    Thirdly, to the person who brought up the issue of all the estate owners who are still paying the old, lower price, making it impossible to compete with them, yes #67 OddesE Oh that’s you, I agree 100%. I had one land baron brag to me that they only ever pay the educational price for islands (presumably for a commercial use.) For that reason my partners and I haven’t gotten into estates. We are doing pretty well with mainland, and without cutting land any smaller than 512. The problem with the mainland is the adjacency model is not ideal. I mean, it does help with the land baron business because adjacency effects the value of a parcel quite a bit, and you can find parcels that are priced too low, and profit from that knowledge. But it could be so much better if it was dynamic. By that, I mean, what if you owned a parcel that was adjacent to a bunch of spinning porn ads, and you could just respond to that by *moving the parcel someplace else*? What if you could develop a parcel to the point that other people would want to be adjacent to you, and you could auction off the rights to be attached to each of your four sides? I have a pretty detailed idea of how to implement something like that in my head, so, Lindens, if you want to hire me I’ll be happy to reveal it all to you, LOL. Seriously, though, if LL wants to sell me some islands, the best thing it could do is un-grandfather the old pricing. That would be awesome.

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  74. Jack Linden says:

    @Emondrell: Yes, this includes the teen grid – we’ll be looking at tidying up abandoned parcels across the TG mainland.

    @Sling: Good point re. shipstone, will take note of that and see what we can do.

    @Argent: Totally agree, which is why the eastern continents were placed close together. So, yesterday we added connecting ocean between Kinrara and Strangways (connecting the corsican continent to Nautilus), and also between Arianti and Maat (connecting Nautilus with the japanese continent to the south).

    @Cristalle: Yep, we know a few auction features are missing at present and will look at providing those soon – the closed auction listings particularly.

    @Accasbel: We’ll be getting those water regions on the newer continents cleaned up, named etc over the next few weeks. I agree, it isn’t useful having their status unclear like that.

    By the way, there is a simple grid map on the wall of my office on the Linden Estate Services region. I’ll be putting some more fun grid maps out over the next couple of weeks for those that are interested.

  75. Dingle Doigts says:

    Wow, Jack. Great responses. Thanks for the original post and the attempt to clear up some of the questions raised by those who genuinely want to improve the game. The waterway and protected borders issue is confusing and any way you can establish more and/or comfirm protected areas will be a help. I do like Tory’s comment number 8. Why not use some abandoned land to provide some low prim tree’d, grass’d or fern’d land? Land that has been abandoned but can’t get in the que fast enough could be re-faced like that to improve the experience for neighbors. I for one would even volunteer to clean up such areas just to give back to the game. What was done to auction the land later, would not matter to me. It would be fun to participate or watch improvement in the meantime.

  76. Since again almost comments are closed…
    Damnit when is Linden Lab going to set up some normal Customer Services !!!!!!!!!!!
    No music I have all of the sudden from sl since days, and boy am I sure that all setting are ok. All outworld music and streams works fine.
    And can we find any Linden for support, none so ever 😦
    GEEEEZZZZ GET CUSTOMER SERVICES ORGANIZED IS THAT SO DIFFICULT ? There are only around 50.000 people online at the same time; what is the difficulty to get basic CS setting up to normal standards. Hire profs to get it organized !!

  77. Hello,
    Something I really don´t understand is why hardware and organizational structure is behind all the time actuality. Following sl since the last year, the growth of ppl online at the same time is very predictable based on mathematical regression.
    Make sure you have capäcity for 65000 / 70000 residents for the next progonesed months, mark my words… Geeez, this is so simple.
    Should you have a shadow system… double the regression.

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