The Big Prim Problem

For quite a while now Second Life has been home to a variety of jumbo-sized prims, megaprims, and other larger than the usual ten-meters-maximum prims. The original “megaprims” were produced by Residents’ manipulation of the client last year; “new” ones cannot be made, but the existing supply can be (and are) copied and distributed. Linden Lab doesn’t support or encourage the use of these prims, but our policy up until now has been ‘live and let live’.

Back in at the December 2006 Town Hall meeting there were a couple of questions about these objects (see
http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/12/20/town-hall-with-cory-introductory-transcript/
) , to which Cory Linden answered: “I think the policy is to return them if a nuisance … oh, a follow up on megaprims: we are going to allow them on private estates as well.”

Some of these objects have now been recognized as being nuisances in several ways:

— the larger ones, when used on the mainland, often produce annoying “parcel encroachment” situations. The megaprims are difficult to interact with, and are often not recognized by Residents as being an object at all — “I couldn’t go past some kind of invisible barrier.” Abusive Residents take advantage of these problems.

— the presence of megaprims will interfere with the improvements planned for the physics engine. The bigger the megaprims, the more trouble they will cause for physics simulation in a Region.

— the graphics engine does not work well with prims over 256 meters in any dimension.

We are thus requesting your comments on The Megaprim Problem.

Good Things: are there legitimate current uses of megaprims? Perhaps with a good example location?

Bad Things: have you had negative experiences in Second Life due to the presence of megaprims (besides deliberately abusive uses, that is)? Please don’t use these comments to file abuse reports, by the way.

Ideas: should Linden Lab remove all megaprims? Or at some particular size level? Or take some other, more creative action? If we remove them, they have to be removed on all private estates as well (otherwise they get imported back into the Mainland!). There’s one available at over 65,000 meters wide … that one will definitely be removed!

Please post your comments! We will make another posting once we’ve reviewed your comments.

[EDIT] – I’ve made a forum thread for more comments; the 150 comment limit in the Blog can’t be over-ridden for this post, alas. See http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=216541

Β [EDIT] Forum comments have been closed as of 15 November 2007; thanks for all your input!

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151 Responses to The Big Prim Problem

  1. Rukkia Yifu says:

    Good Things: Some times mega prims are good to builds for an instance, Some people like the creator of the up plate of midgar used for a 1 prim building for the back ground.

    Bad Things: Some times aswell these “megaprims” can be bad, Some people abuse them ect.

  2. You should remove them all because they enable terrorism.

  3. Rukkia Yifu says:

    Hey gene I dunno about that idea because Megaprims are a very useful part of SL.

  4. Brian Engel says:

    I’ve only encountered them in problem situations. They can save builders some prims but the way they are used/abused out weighs any prim saving value.

  5. Gerard Laasonen says:

    I think megaprims up to 100m are useful. They are perfect when you are building big malls, floors for skyboxes etc. Or to put up a wall on the edge of your parcel (of course phantom and invisible from the other parcel). You can then set up a nice texture to block your own view off the (ugly) apartment buildings some people keep setting up in nice places.

  6. Von Johin says:

    Mega prims are most helpful for building flat land, walls, etc. on otherwise uneven land which allows the property owned to be put to good use. I have no problem with mega prims that are kept on the land of the people who own them.

  7. trever coronet says:

    They can be useful when building homes and structures. I have saved close to 100 prims, on walls, floors and cielings alone. Without my mega prims, I would have to remove one of the structures on my property, just to make more room to make conventional walls and flooring

  8. I think it would be a good idea to ban them, but not actually remove them. The thing is you would want to give people chance to replace any megaprim-based objects with normal primmed objects, and not log in one day and find your builds with pieces missing.

  9. angela seale says:

    “Linden Lab doesn’t support or encourage the use of these prims…”?
    how can you say that when LL itself uses them in builds?

  10. Cobra Walker says:

    Hi.
    I personally find the megaprims to be useful, if used correctly.
    The recent release of the sculpted prims is proof enough of their use. However like the sculpted prims, they’re best utilized when Phantomed, otherwise you get the ‘invisible wall’.
    I think that megaprims should be embraced within reason (65,000 meters wide?!! I think not!), perhaps even developed to be more sim friendly, and used as normal prims.
    Can’t you see using 1 50x50x1 Megaprim instead of 25 10x10x1’s if the need arose? I could, and even have a nice little plot that uses an oversized prim to blend in with the surrounding area.
    Go for it LL, You may be surprised what happens if these become less of a Taboo and more of a Tool.

  11. Yrrek Gran says:

    I think a size limit would be a good starting point. I personally use a 20 x 20 x 5 for my water in my swimming pool. No seams, is the only reason. There are legitimate uses for them and as long as they are not causing problems, why not allow them.

  12. Mrc Homewood says:

    ive neaver seen any of them yet, way i think of it, if peaple start complain like reporting them as abuse give the owner a warning, and if they keep geting reported remove it from the owner, mightbe better then this,

    “Hi, no more using these prims * someone takes out every simgle mega prim*, bye bye”

    and for size wise a goo size might be like 20-30m on my opinion

  13. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-186

    proof with the effects of megaprims on private estate and issues relateing too it

  14. Angus Milland says:

    Good things: can be used as platforms for large builds in sky (E.g. Buildings) above sandboxs

    Bad things: They lagg alot and can cause proplems when placed over land (E.g. Retruning it etc.)

  15. Cobra Walker says:

    LOL, Gene’s the creator of the megaprims, if y’all don’t know.. Kudos πŸ˜€ You made something awesome.

  16. Stimpy T says:

    Hi:
    My vote is to remove them. They have always been a hack job. Residents should know this, and can do the same with smaller prims. I do think you should give some advanced warning so folks can work out replacing them.
    -s

  17. Destiny Niles says:

    Anything over 256 should be removed. The 20x20x.5 is great for floors. Here are the sizes of the megaprims:.1x 10x 50, 1x 1x 100, 1.75x 7.25x 40, 20x 20x 0.5, 20x20x60, 32x32x40, 40×40,x40, 50x 50×50, 100x100x0.01, 100x100x100, 150x150x150, 256x256x1, 256x256x256, 1024x1024x0.01, 1024x1024x1, 1024x1024x100, 2048x2048x2, 65535x65535x0.01

    So that’s only 5 megaprims that should be outlawed.

  18. Mordoz Valois says:

    I would agree with #5 Gerard Laasonen. Limit the size to 100m. and possibly limit it to phantom only..otherwise let it come back fully editable, cull-able etc…just limit some of the problem things on it like making physical and whatnot. anything larger is a real problem even if the resident is not trying to cause a problem.

  19. TaraLi Jie says:

    Any prims over the size of a SIM – 256m in their largest dimension – definitely should go. Most of the rest are useful for creating scenery or some such – I know the 20×20 and 40×40 are commonly used for creating flat land when terraforming limits won’t allow it. I’d like to see up to 50×50 or 100×100 allowed – though 100×100 is really easy to create encroaching situations – you have to own a significant fraction of SIM to have a good opportunity to use one.

    Honestly, I’d like to see the limit on size moved up to 25m or maybe 50m, but with some restrictions perhaps – maybe anything over 10m can’t be made physical, or part of a vehicle. I’m not sure what that would entail, really, so I don’t know how practical it would be. I know, though, that without the 20x20s, people are going to need a *WHOLE* lot more prims, since a 20×20 often takes the place of 4 or more 10x10s.

  20. Lex Mars says:

    Megaprims definitely have their uses in builds. I personally have avoided using them as I was under the impression that they were forbidden on mainland now.

    There are many instances where a megaprim can be very helpful in a build, particuarlly when creating “prim land” or creating a starbox around a “space station”.

    The primary issue I see is with megaprims and physics… Is there a way that a prim that exceeds 10m^3 would be forced to phantom and non-physical? This alone seems like it would solve the majority of grief-issues related to megaprims.

    As for encroachment, I think that the method of detecting a prim on another parcel needs to be revised so that parcels are essentially volume detects, and if *any* part of a prim crosses into another parcel, it is considered in that parcel, and subject to the permissions settings of that parcel.

    That’s just my 7Β’.

  21. caroline ra says:

    Restrict to 20 x 20 maybe, this size helps save prims and isnt so large it causes problems, sort of strikes a happy medium.

  22. Chrysala Desideri says:

    Visit the Skymall in Turmus. Impossible without megaprims and no problem as it stands, i fly circles around it and through the open areas. it is a class 3 server, Turmus, i believe…. there are most definitely tons of legitimate uses, the question itself seems silly.

    Most of the prims in the skymall structure are 100m base prims, whittled with profile cut. are they legitimately useful?

    !!YES!!

    Prims savings, less viewer lag (less prims to draw), different crreative possibilities.

    if people misuse them, well that’s what ban lists, estate tools and AR’s are for.

    No talk of discontinuing the physics engine because asshats maliciously push for fun.

    It would, in fact, be a silly suggestion, would it not?

    93/93

  23. Govindira Galatea says:

    You seem to already have the technical requirements: graphics engine works best with prims less than 256 meters and the physics engine has a limitation/tradeoff. A legitimate use of megaprims is as a floor/roof/wall. It also saves huge amounts of time when aligning a single texture stretched across multiple prims–I’ve done redwood grove patterned walls out of 10meter prims to cover unpleasant concoctions and had I had a megaprim to use instead, the megaprim would have saved hours of tedious calculation and data entry to set offsets. I’ve never been griefed with a megaprim, though I can imagine it would be extremely unpleasant. One thing I would find acceptable is to pay for a megaprim: let Linden Lab sell them to us, one at a time: mod, no copy, transferable. A new sink!

  24. Ada Radius says:

    I’m using them for big water and rock effects in my nature park and other landscaping type builds, not so much to save prims, but because texturing is easier and looks better, and I don’t have to worry about lining up a bunch of smaller prims. Instead of banning them, maybe coming up with a formula that debits our prim counts according to the actual stress the giant prims put on a sim? Does it actually cost LL more to maintain them?

  25. Jaxon Voom says:

    I say get rid of them all together, they’re nothing but eye-sores and one of the ones i saw was about 100m in length, encroaching on someone else’s land, however if the centre of the prim is on your land you’re allowed to do that and the other person cant return it because technically its not on their land.

  26. I’m not a builder, so I know nothing about megaprims. All I can “build” is a box. But does Greenies use megaprims? If so, I would hate for them to have to change. I am a Greenies fan and consider it one of the best builds in SL.

  27. Vinc Sonic says:

    Huge prims is good for build

    i think just limit size of this problem ( maybe 64×64 meters).

  28. Tosh Snook says:

    I find therm useful within a reasonable size. A cut-off point of 100m should be acceptable.

  29. hiro Voss says:

    I have had very good results with the mega prims in reducing prim count in situations where the need for just one large expanse is needed rather than having to use 10×10 prims over and over again. That just seems like a waiste when prim counts are so tight. It seems to me that abuse is abuse, be it verbal, physical, or huge prim-al. Simply make a resonable policy governing it (protecting people from abusive uses) and enforce the policy. I think the bulk of the controversy surrounding the huge prim (and the many technical myths) is based upon the fuzziness of the policy rather than the actual effect that hge prims have upon the world.

  30. Shadow Templar says:

    I’d rather see them gone. I used to have a pleasant ocean view on my parcel, and the person who moved in next to me put up terrible looking huge prims, far larger and more obstructing than could be accomplished with normal prims and the parcel prim count.

  31. Delora Starbrook says:

    I am very fond of the 20X20X.5’s for use as walls and large floor spaces.

    They cut the prim count to 1/4 of what it would have been if I had used standard prims, and without them, often many of my builds would have been too primmy to be useful.

    Please keep the ones that have legitimate uses in, but take the ones that are good as griefer tools (such as the ‘infinite checkered prim’) out.

    Thank you!

  32. Ree Indigo says:

    We recently rebuilt Club Stinkerz (Radjin 1, private island) using megaprims mostly using 20x20x0.5 and 10x20x0.5 megaprims, simply to save prims on a large plot with a relatively low prim allowance. I honestly think low-prim large-scale architectural builds are the ONLY legitimate use of the things.

    As far as abusing megaprims … think of the abuses people find for regular prims. How about the 0.01m transparent spheres griefers drop that scream constantly? How about the meter-tall cages and the bullets and whatnot. If it exists, it will be abused.

    I think a potential halfway point to please builders is to remove the existing megaprims, but allow a much larger architectural prim, that can only be dropped and manipulated by the land owners.

  33. Harmpie rhode says:

    I for one would really, really like big prims to stay, since I’v used them in almost every build from the moment I found out about them, and I would not be able to sell these prebaf buildings anymore if they would dissapear. You can look at the builds I made with them at this location:
    http://slurl.com/secondlife/Helmudhoe/235/59/40.

    I would not have any problem with big prims above 100x100x100 being removed since I have never used them, but I can imagine some simowners would be having problems with that, (one big prim covering a sim is a good way to make a huge skyplatform with very low prim usage).

  34. Argent Stonecutter says:

    @3: Gene Replacement was the guy who made the megaprims.

    My take is colored by the fact that I’ve used megaprims constructively. Lots of people enjoyed my megaprim based Mars diorama at Burning Life. Thanks for the panoramic pictures, NASA, you rock.

    Here’s my suggestions:

    * Prims over a certain size (50m? 100m?) should be automatically made phantom.
    — maybe even make them all automatically phantom?
    * Prims over 256m should simply not rez.
    * Allow new megaprims to be made, up to some limit, but make all new megaprims forced-phantom.

    Also, the encroaching-prim problem isn’t limited to megaprims. It would be nice if there was a way to return prims encroaching on your property even if they weren’t megaprims. I believe there’s a JIRA request out there for that.

  35. Sally laSalle says:

    Big Prims:
    The Good:
    – Minimizes Prim counts for larger constructions
    – Large “seamless” textures
    – Allows the creation of large “habitats” Spheres and Cubes within which to create an environment with privacy.
    The Bad:
    -Difficult to Manipulate\Delete
    -unSizable (ie cant mod the size of a prim)
    Ideas:
    – Allow them to be sized
    – Allow them to be identified (a beacon on them)
    – Make them “Non Physical”
    – If possible only allow them to be rezzed on Land owned by the rezzer
    – Make them 256m max (size of a sim)

  36. Chrysala Desideri says:

    oh, and i’ve made working physical vehicles with only the saggitarius script using 40m mgarpims too. nice and smooth at 1.0 buoancy, obviously.

    really there is too much superstition and paranoia on this stuff..
    responsible use: and its a tool,

    irresponsible use: and even the base functions are grief.

    why is there even a discussion on common sense?

  37. MrLunk voom says:

    I have a 40x40x40 sphere representing the earth hovering over my land… With a flag on top wich indicates where we are located in RL.. This decorative use is no nussance to annyone…
    I allso used to use them with good texuring they can be great for high building walls with glass textures wich cover several floors…

  38. Leben Schnabel says:

    Limit the megaprims to a size that the physics and rendering engine can handle and make them “official”.

    Megaprims well under 256m are useful building elements that reduce polygon overhead significantly. Also, they help builders on smaller plots of land to create without running into prim limits prematurely.

  39. Regan Turas says:

    Good things!

    I use small megaprims (50×10) to create a black wall behind my tree screen alpha textures that would otherwise flicker and merge with my neighbors alpha textures for fencing. I keep the megaprim texture transparent on their side so that it is not ugly or obstrusive of their view.

    I also use this same size megraprim to create a faux sky that covers incredibly ugly rotating ads planted on a neighboring parcel. Again, I’m careful to apply transparent texture on the outside so their view is not blocked.

    Without megaprims, it would take 5x the number of prims to accomplish the same purpose, which would be a big hit to my prim allowance.

  40. I use megaprims for a host of situations from freezing over large bodies of water to terraforming. Since I own my own island, these prims do not encroach upon any else’s parcel. While they can be used for abusive purposes, banning them all essentially punishes us all for the actions of the irresponsible few.

  41. John Alturas says:

    I think the use of Mega prims is very useful. I use them on my land (making sure not to go onto my neighbors plots). They save on prims especially with larger builds. I agree that the larger ones should be removed, but keep the smaller ones.

    Something that could correct the problem with large prims is to allow residents to return ANY prims if they encroach on the property lines. For example I have a neighbor that has one of his walls extending on to my property and I can not return it to him/her as only about 1m is on my land. The prims usage simulator does not show it on my land, but it is.

    Please do not get rid of large prims as they are very useful.

  42. Sylvie Matova says:

    They’re essential for building. Floors and roofs especially benefit. If you’re trying to build a pitched roof on a large, low building like I did, using megaprims saved me hours of hassle and 50 or 60 prims.

    If there’s a problem with misuse then get rid of the very large ones. I see no particular reasons for having any over say 50×50.

    But it would be great if you could allow construction of more varied ones above 10×10 again. It gets really difficult trying to torture some of the existing ones especially for novices builders like myself.

  43. Please do not delete the 20x20x.5- or better yet, make that size prim available in the client. I really don’t care about the rest; they often are problematic for clipping reasons- but I and many others use the 20x20x.5 for floors, walls, and building platforms.

  44. Speric Lane says:

    Resolve these problem by removing all megaprims and enlarge the basic primsize to 20x20x20m…

    and do it quick πŸ™‚

  45. Hern Worsley says:

    Any of the existing “legitimate” prims or scripts can be abused in much the same way as a megaprim can… its got nothing to do with the object its the person behind it that creates a problem. For this to be used as an argument against does not cut it otherwise scripts should be banned as they are a far more powerfull tool in a griefers arsenal.

    To lose these prims would be a disaster for thousands of people (me included) who have used them in to create buildings and larger shapes that would take many more prims and a lot more maths to work out.

    Put simply used creatively and with the usual consideration expected of all residents mega prims are a wonderfull addition and if they were removed id be able to do far less with my land aswell as the loss of numerous builds ive created :/

    How can you justify telling us it was ok to use them and then remove them after thousands of hours of work has gone into using them?

    a prim cant be “negative” only how its used and this principal applies to all content in SL

  46. Siyu Suen says:

    General consensus seems to be: Size limits!! And I completely agree, prims that are larger than a sim are just ridiculous, so go ahead and ban those.

    Another idea would be removing them from the physics engine entirely, if that’s what will be causing problems. Personally when I use them I always set them phantom in order to create minimum lag, because sometimes I just need an enormous prim to get the effect I need. For water, backdrops, oversized trees etc, they’re absolutely perfect, but none of those things need to be physical. Being economical with prims is all well and good, but if you have your own private estate it probably isn’t too big an issue. I wouldn’t mind seeing an end to all prims over 50X50, it’s a nice round number and beyond that size they’re most likely being used for griefing.

    Thanks for making this an open discussion, and thanks for letting us have a say in this matter, it’s much appreciated πŸ˜€

  47. RaptonX Zorger says:

    Hmm, as long as they are not used as physical objects, I don’t see them as a real problem…..there are lots of uses for them, like large floor pieces for sky boxes and such.

    “You should remove them all because they enable terrorism.”

    I find it really funny when griefing is referred to as terrorism, but that’s just me. AS they don’t strike any terror really, just annoy and harass.

  48. If the editing tools would allow for 30m maximum size this would be a great improvement and reduce the number of prims needed in constructions.
    Dome roofs, single prim floors and long wall sections.

    A lot of the mega-prims are totally impractical and only used for abuse and annoyance.

    Kill the mega-prims across the grid and allow 30m prim sizes.

    Most good builders that supply builds made with existing mega-prims also supply normal prim versions too.

  49. Ilana Debevec says:

    How about just enabling the size of ‘normal’ prims to go to 250x250x250? Just make them ‘supported’ and the rest go bye-bye

  50. Veronica Quackenbush says:

    The plain truth is that except for abuses by griefers, megaprims are mainly used (and useful) in large construction projects, where the 10 meter maximum limit is an *immense* limitation. Consider that in order to build, say, a 40 meter radius dome, using legitimate 10 meter prims you need more than 50 of them to make it look nice (since you are using much smaller building blocks to approximate the curve of a sphere, so your actual prims have to be much smaller than the 10 meter maximum). That is a very significant impact on the land’s prim budget, wasting a lot of small identical building blocks that diminish the number of original, unique prims that can be created.

    Just like sculpties fill a niche for builds that would otherwise waste tons of prims on a small scale, megaprims in legitimate uses really fill a niche for builds that would otherwise waste large numbers of prims on a larger scale. That, in my opinion, is the reason why megaprims are so popular. I see them used in large builds all the time.

    I don’t know exactly why the 10 meter limit for normal prims exists in the first place, but from where I am standing, the most logical way to normalize the megaprim situation would be to allow a niche for them in the upcoming physics enhancements, with suitable limitations so that they don’t interfere with physics, but implemented, like sculpties, in a way that would allow them to be integrated in builds to save large pointless wastes of identical prims. One suggestion, for instance, would be to waive the 10 meter limit for at most 2 axes (e.g., X and Y, to allow for large flat surfaces) or to base the maximum not on the size of the theoretical prim, but on the final size of the prim after path cuts, dimpling, etc. (many a time I have not been able to create a prim considerably smaller than 10 meters on its largest actual dimension because the underlying theoretical prim would have to be larger than 10 meters) Whether existing megaprims would be grandfathered would then depend on how well they can fit into this scheme.

  51. Dash Curry says:

    Well, I love the mega prims. Excellent for building contained environments (mapping a sky or starfield texture to the inside). However, I do agree that anything really large should be limited to phantom-only.

  52. Seriously though Michael have you even talked to a developer at LL about this? They would explain to you how easy it would be for them to fix a lot of these issues.

    – the larger ones, when used on the mainland, often produce annoying β€œparcel encroachment” situations. The megaprims are difficult to interact with, and are often not recognized by Residents as being an object at all β€” β€œI couldn’t go past some kind of invisible barrier.” Abusive Residents take advantage of these problems.

    Easy fix: force prims over a certain size (I think ~50-100m is fair) to be phantom.

    – the presence of megaprims will interfere with the improvements planned for the physics engine. The bigger the megaprims, the more trouble they will cause for physics simulation in a Region.

    I’m not sure where you heard this but the new physics engine (Havok 4) has a much improved physics simulation for objects >10m. Though again, an easy fix is to never allow large prims to become physical. The server already checks if an object is flexi and disallows physics in that case, just add another clause.

    – the graphics engine does not work well with prims over 256 meters in any dimension.

    This is because the graphics engine was coded to occlude objects which have their root position located further than your draw distance. A much smarter approach would be to use the objects bounding box rather than the root position. Again a very easy fix, one that your developers would have probably fixed out of annoyance if they weren’t deathly afraid of implementing anything that might reveal their support for those evil big prims.

  53. Grey Grayson says:

    I’ve used the smaller 20x20x0.5 cube-prims as floors, walls, roads, and ceilings all across our private sims, greatly reducing the amount of prims needed to build these projects. It takes 4 10x10x0.5 pieces to fill the space of one 20x20x0.5 prim. I like to build big, wide, and open spaces and removing these prims from secondlife would is going to unneccessarily increase the prim count for these types of projects, as well as greatly skew the prim allottance per parcel in trying to replace them with normal ones.

    These, as well as a few other “medium” sized mega prims, could greatly aid in large projects and keep prim counts low. But I do agree that there no need for the really mega prims like the 256×256, 1024×1024, or the infinite board. These are the ones that seem to cause most of the grief with mega prims.

  54. Cammi Hudson says:

    I love my megaprims extremely useful in my build and my build platforms is several megaprims…but also they can be bad is large enough. I think a size limit should be enacted say 40 or 60 metres should be the useful limit. Thats my opinion on it. the larger they get the more trouble they are worth. but at 20, 40 ,60 they extremely useful for build and other things.

  55. Dytska Vieria says:

    I am a builder and I would rather see the max size limit of 10m increased to 20m or 30m or even 50m.

    I have never used megaprims in my personal or for sale builds because of the warning that they may be banned someday and their static sizes are never the sizes I need.

    So, whatever happens to them will not affect me nor others who heed the warning. Those who would be affected may have been warned, and if they were, it’s their consequences if one day their builds are missing pieces where the megaprims used to be.

  56. Megaprims are ridiculously useful – as we can’t separate out “vertical” parcels, haivng a sim sized floor at 600m allows for a lot of flexibility. Prims more than a sim in size are probably a bit of a waste though.

    I also made a nightclub by using a single 40x40x40 sphere – made phantom and hollow – it gave just the right ambiance when textured dark inside. No matter how good a geodesic dome is – it still has seams to ruin the feel.

    Most of the problems I’ve seen with megaprims are to do with the bounding box issues, and the inability to properly edit them. If the prim size limts were changed to max 256m – but no prims encroaching parcels you don’t have perms, surely that would satisfy most problems and needs?

    Please Linden Lab, don’t react to the hysteria by banning them altogether – sensible limits properly enforced are the answer.

  57. HealthStar says:

    The 20×20 is a staple now. I would hate to see it go, I am quite fond of the 256 one as well. Just because they can be used as greifer tools does mean in itself they need to go. LSL can be used for griefing to but we arent going to ban it. I think the measure of keeping the legitimate and usefull ones available as they currently are would be a great step.
    I would also like to see a concerted effort by LL to really get the word out on this and ask for comments outside of just the blog, so that more people have a chance to weigh in on how important or not the megaprims are to their builds and can have their situations taken into consideration.

  58. Chrysala Desideri says:

    Huge Spotlights (60m lenth cylinder, tapered, phantom)

    Grand Walkways over uneven ground (40m blocks)

    Grand Aerial Constructions (bits of 100m torii)

    water above sea level without seams (varying)

    Big walls, Skyscrapers that are mere “scenery” (varying)

    And the list will go on and on if you don’t kill them. residents are rescourceful folks.

    They imagine and create things, don’t you know.

  59. Carl Temin says:

    I think we should make a maximum size of say 50x50m and stop enabling the creation of any more over that size. the smaller mega prims are far too useful in builds.

    Allow some fo the smaler ones.

    Carl

  60. Jman Udet says:

    I believe that megaprims should be allowed, up to a certain size and the rest removed. I currently also have the megaprims pack, and often use the 20x20x0.5m one just to save prims (saves 3, which adds up quickly). I definately think that the super large ones are rediculous and useless. Perhaps if limits were set at max 50×50. As i said, they do have there uses with saving prims, especially since it seems everytime i build i always run out :O. Although i know there’s the down sides too, like with griefers. It is a shame that they abuse them, but on the other hand taking away mega prims isnt going to slow them down much from griefing…. they’ll just continue on doing so with something else. So, I am saying bring either A) bring back creation of megaprims up to a max of 50×50 (could be less, id be happy with 20×20 even. B) Keep things the way they are but remove ability for the super super large prims, but allow the smaller ones that are out there now. Or C) Deny any megaprim creation, but only if you can up the max prims per sim higher (to like 20,000 for instance, or whatever is feasable).

  61. CyberTiger Nemeth says:

    I think in most of the cases megaprims aren’t necessary. The fact is the 10m limit. Sometimes a prim with 10m in one dimension is yet small. Also, megaprims seems nice used with the sculped option.

    Suppose that you need to do a 50x50x50 sphere. That would be painfull to do it with several prims, but a single megaprims saves the time to do it and prim limit.

    I sugest that the prim size limit be by area, and not by dimension range. Let’s suppose a 125,000 meters limit. Someone can have a 50x50x50 prim, but also a 250x250x2 prim. In case of need, the sim also can limit the prim area allowed.

    Well, any prim that exceeds those limits would be removed. I don’t think that a 65,000m wide prims is really necessary, since it’s bigger than a sim. A 250x250x2 like in the example? Maybe… But the real benefits of the megaprims are the “small” ones, like 20x1x1, 20x20x1…

  62. Neural says:

    Good: They are useful, at the least, as sculpties. I made a 100m^3 volcano on an island at one point out of a single sculpted prim.

    Bad: They really muck with the camera when you are trying to pan around.

    Ideas? If you *must* get rid of them, increase the maximum size of a prim to 30x 30 x30. Would be a compromize. I realize that a 512 plot is only 16m x 32m, but there are still a lot of issues with overhanging prims anyway

  63. Drako Nagorski says:

    mega prims are a valuable item, when used right. they allow for large spaces to be covered, like a parking deck or something. something wide that would normally take 6 prims to make can be made with one. i wouldnt mind seeing the servers updated to handle a larger prim limit on parcels πŸ˜› however, massive prims (over, say, 100m) are nice little griefer tools.
    but, you lindens could also make prims able to get to 20x20x20 πŸ˜› many times i need a 10x10x10 eighth sphere, and im unable to. same with many objects. #44 agrees πŸ˜›

  64. Domino Marama says:

    While mega prims are useful, it should be remembered that there is a minimum draw distance of 64M, and often the larger megaprims don’t get drawn as their origin is outside the draw distance. I can see a good case for removing the larger ones so that only ones that you can see before you collide with are available.

  65. Cal Corleone says:

    I a builder, business owner, and multi-sim owner.

    Good Things: The SMALL and MEDIUM sized MegaPrims (i.e. 20x20x0.5, or 50x10x.01) are extremely useful in building and sim design. To cover a large area of path, mall floor space, flat roof, long property walls, or decorative towers and huge landscaping rocks. Very, Very useful! —- note: I only use them on my sims, not in my saleable builds, though I wish I could…. often!

    Bad Things: As a sim owner and parcel lessor, I have to deal with invisible barriers and nuisance, non-deleting MegaPrims. However…. Predominantly, these are the BIG MegaPrims (i.e. 256x256x.01, 40x40x60).

    SOLUTION: Ban all MegaPrims, and expand the current Prim restrictions to include up to a 25x25x25 or 20,000 m2 area limit. This will give legitimate users who have a real need for these prims more flexibility, but do away with 90% of the annoyance factor. It will also do away with the “invisible” barrier, as making these prims modifiable, this problem be non-existant.

    I build big builds. The repetitive use of the same 10x10x.5 textured prim is absurd and wasteful. Please give us a legitimate, modifiable option and Ill gladly delete all my MegaPrims!
    Thank You.

  66. Shaun Banshee says:

    The Good: Create an artificial, sim-wide background to hide the ugly ocean e.g. , upload a picture of a desert and use that, to create a customized look for your sim

    The Bad: Many people abuse these prim by making the bottom of them invisible, thus blocking most people from going above them

    The Ugly, i mean ideas: Allow prims to go to 64m wide max, and abolish prim any larger, therefore it shouldn’t be too bad on the engine and only require about 16 prims to maintain a custom background.

  67. I would say

    1. Remove any MegaPrim over 256m I can’t think of a legit use for any prim larger than that since it won’t properly fit in a region and will turn phantom outside the region but 256x256xZ can be useful for sky platforms for full region owners.(I would expand the 256m limit if someone has a legitimate use larger than that)

    2. Enable full server/viewer/physics support for prims up to 256m including the creation of new ones.

    3 When an object is right clicked and a user selects Return/Delete validate the request against the coordinates the user clicked not just the root coordinates so people can return infringing objects.

    Legitimate uses off the top of my head

    1. Prim conservation especially if people are allowed to create them again giant prims could conserve prim usage and once properly supported improve performance.

    2. Reduce floating point errors creating cracks across large flat surfaces due to the reduction of joints.

    3. Accurate rendering of curves with a radius greater than 5m this is probably the greatest flaw with the 10m cap since large radius curves can’t readily be created using multiple prims.

    Large prims have alot of valid uses once proper support for them is in place. Griefers should NOT be the standard for whether an object is allowed or not. Instead of restricting the object study how it is abused and find ways around that like the suggestion for returning encroaching prims.

  68. Felix Oxide says:

    I think they are great for landscaping. I was able to use them to create a mountain surrounding my land instead of an ugly wall so I could block out my neighbor’s ugly crap that I shouldn’t have to see in the first place.

  69. Desmond Shang says:

    Remove the ability to rez and repair megaprims and Caledon is, in a word, toast.

    We’ve been using them peacefully for ages, and Caledon would be trashed horrifically if they were denied.

    We’d never, ever look the same again, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

    I think I can safely say I’m speaking for a few hundred people here, covering nearly 2 million meters of land and well over 4000 USD a month of tier.

    Good luck on your decision.

    Desmond Shang
    Independent State of Caledon

  70. Bambii says:

    I think there should be a limit to size, as 20×20 is what you see most builders use then keep the limit to a reasonable size like that.. Why not go as far as to create or allow fully modable prims up to 20x20x20 ?? Anything over the 20x20x20 is either totally unusable or abused rather than used

  71. Dag Glenelg says:

    1) For builders megaprim are very useful so that some designs that would be too prim heavy can be done in SL, such as medieval castles.

    2) Why did a resident have to invent these and not Linden Labs? Why doesnt Linden, now take the initiative and create mega prim?

    3) Is there an answer to no 2 above other than, more prim used = more land sold to enable some designs and/or depth of detail, using standard 10meterx10meter prims?

  72. Skylarian says:

    While the smaller flat prims are quite useful for keeping prim use down as floors, roofs, etc, the large ones seem to be only problems. I know there are many where the super prims are used to block out the view of the next sim, which is not a bad thing on its own, but the extremely large textures used on them to create backdrops causes a lot of problems with trying to render those in the client, and often make the sim a lot more crash prone for the client.

    Some of the sims I have seen where there a lot of large prims in use seem to have really bizzare physics, you cannot even fly around properly as gravity and mass centers are all skewed terribly. The work at Varda was a real shock when I visited due to the way you kept hitting areas where you could hardly control your movements.

    Personally, I would like to see all prims over 40 meters removed, and if possible increase or make available a “panel” prim of 20 x 10, 20 x 20 and perhaps 10 and 20 x 40 no thicker than 5 available as a standard building tool.

  73. Fizz graves says:

    I have recently just started testing out mega prims as i wanted to reduce the amount of prims i had to use to make a pad for a skybox or ground. Using one mega prim which is 20×30 has worked perfectly and saved on using 6 prims which I have been able to use else ware. I think 10 meter prims are a little limiting i would find 20 meter prims more useful also if you could limit to your land or land with permissions would be so helpful. I recently got my hands on a box of these prims and noticed some of the ones within the package are monsters which way way to big.

    As suggested above mega huge mega prims are just to big but anything up to 20 meters would be helpful.

  74. sean voss says:

    We need them, have you guys been to greenies? πŸ˜€

    I think they should only be removed in abuse cases. But yes no one really needs those massive ones bigger than the size of a SIM.

  75. Itazura Radio says:

    I’ve used some megaprims in a few buildings I’ve created for people. I always follow a few set rules and I don’t have much of a problem.

    – I ALWAYS make them phantom.
    – I NEVER use ones larger than what I need.
    – I NEVER use them for a floor (causes nasty physics stuff).
    – I DON’T make them rotate.
    – I ONLY use them in legitimate places to reduce overall prims.
    – I ALWAYS make sure they don’t cross into neighboring lands.

    and most importantly…

    – I ALWAYS think about what it will look like to the people next door.

  76. Erin says:

    We use mega prims in some of our builds. We currently have a haunted cave ride on our sim that would definitely not be the same without the use of the mega prims which we turned into sculpted prims to create the rock for the cave. We also have used it for a volcano that we have on the sim. If you want to take a look, tp to the Tahiti sim or search for Liquid Heat in Places.

  77. Timothy Harlow says:

    I think the mega prims have a use. On mainland you really don’t need anything larger than 30x30x30, but I think private island should be allowed to use the larger ones. There are many good uses for the huge prims (example: Space Flight Museum Sim) but I think on Linden Mainland, they server no constructive purpose.
    I think allowing the 30x30x30 size in the client is a great idea, if that was done, I would support the movement and trash my mega prim folder.

  78. Chrysala Desideri says:

    62: they muck with the camera:

    you’re using something derived from a dimple, and zooming on an area within a bounding box.

    change the dimple so that only one side, one you aren’t in contact with, is what cam focuses on, a “real side” not a side created by the dimpling.

    and if they ban and expand i want dimensions up to 100, non-phantom. i know for a fact that i’ll use them.

  79. Stella Watson says:

    RE: Big Prim Problem, we are currently using large prims under 256x256m in size for our region. We rely on them for a lot of builds, and have spent countless hours lining up textures to match our other prims. If you removed large prims we would lose nearly all floors, roads, and even roofs. We spent a year working on our sim, and don’t have the energy to change things if they are removed. I suggest an option to toggle allow/disallow large prims in estate menu or something. There are no negative effects on the ones that we use in regards to physics, they have been well tested, and have had no complaints.

  80. Ales Beaumont says:

    hi,
    exemple of work based on mega prims : http://slurl.com/secondlife/PACCA/202/232/414
    I think that mega prims are very usefull for large building (how could be done the perfect cylinder used as roof at the top of the building exemple without using all the prims lefs on the sim^^).
    But i never see some use of mega prims larger than 256.
    If you ban mega prims over than 256m in order to comply with the graphic engine and new physic engine i think that will be great…
    If you ban all mega prim some creativity will be restricted.

    thanks for all the work you’re doing

  81. Sarah Nerd says:

    I like wildfires comment #43 best, Why not make certain sizes available on the main client?

  82. Barry Reiter says:

    I too use them for sculpted water in my park, it just looks way better than tiling up flat planes, but I wouldnt mind having any bigger than 256x256x256 removed

  83. pizzaguy Clutterbuck says:

    I really dont like them, Especially as said, on main land where it could completely cover your land but you cant return it. It might be good for PI’s but not for the main land.

  84. Random Cole says:

    Megaprims are very useful for large builds. 256m and above prims, however, tend to make a sim unstable from my experience. I wouldn’t mind seeing 256 and above being taken away.

    Rather than simply eliminate 256m and above and leave Gene Replacement’s set of megaprims as is, I would like to see LL implement an official set of megaprims or even open up the prim size limit.

    But there is no question that for serious or professional builders in SL, megaprims are useful. Removing sizes below 256m would be taking a step backwards in the evolution of SL content creation.

  85. I’ve been using megaprims for quite a long time and there would be nothing left of our ballroom other than houseplants if megaprims were banned. I don’t see any fairness in punishing everyone for the misbehavior of a few.

  86. JasonC Bing says:

    I’ve not had any negative encounters with megaprims and I’ve used them frequently. I have heard of the negative aspects but just haven’t encountered any negativity myself.

    I use megaprims almost exclusively for floors, walls and ceilings. If you eliminate megaprims, would you compensate for the loss by increasing the prim limits. It’s very difficult to make a 125x75x35 palace when you only have 10×10 sections to work with. that equates to nearly 700 prims. Megaprims can reduce the prim usage considerable for certain projects.

    My recommendation, don’t eliminate megaprims. Do eliminate certain uses for megaprims such as don’t allow megaprims to respond to physics except as immobile floors, walls or ceilings. Don’t allow megaprims to contain scripts or other contents. It’s easy enough to link a normal prim that is scripted to a megaprim that is not but even then the scripts should not be allowed to have any effect on the megaprims.

  87. I think anything over 50×50 can go.

    The 50×50 sphere is often used in art installations; the 20x20x.05 is really good for sky platforms and walls. The really big ones should be used only by permission if at all.

  88. Khamon says:

    Remove the current hacked ones if they’re going to interfere with the new Havok performance. We’re perfectly capable of replacing them or using alternate builds just as we did when 1.2 imposed parcel-based prim limits.

    However, it’s safe to assume that the new physics engine will accommodate larger prims than ten meters. So a fair trade would be for you to eliminate the megaprims and at the same time facilitate the legitimate creation of twenty, no, forty meter prims.

  89. Hiroaki Rhino says:

    – Good Things:
    I and my residents use 20x20x0.5 prims to reduce the unreasonable prim cost for covering the ground (because the default ground cannot be as smooth as prims, and it is easier to lower the entire level and place ground tiles on the entire parcel).
    And I only allow the use of 20x20x0.5 for my residents.
    As far as I have used it for about a year, 20x20x0.5 are relatively lag free.
    You can see my SIM at Osaka, almost all the ground tiles are made with this prims. (I was once neglected by a support for having mega-prims in my SIM though.)

    Board type mega prims are sometimes useful for placing in the sky and for separating the sky ground from the world below.

    Other example use: For example, build a flying airship in the sky in the center of a SIM, and put 100x100x0.01 on 4 sides to cover the SIM (place it so the prim center is visible), copy them and stack them, put each of them cloud textures for animations. Now you feel like you are flying above and below the thick layers of clouds! (This is especially needed because WindLight will delete our current clouds.)

    – Bad Things:
    Most of the shapes available in the “package” of mega prims I’ve seen are useless to my opinion.
    There are hollow bugs with mega prims.
    There are other bugs relating to the camera movements.

    While there are useful mega prims, prims like 1024x1024x0.01, 256x256x256 and such are completely useless.
    (But 256x256x0.01 is still useful in private SIMs for partially blocking unwanted fly-byers)

    – Ideas:
    Best part and the whole purpose of mega prims are to reduce prims.

    If reducing prims will be possible for example by enabling us to use larger(even slightly larger) prims in the edit window by default, the use of mega prims will decrease, because they are not as flexible and most of them have problems anyway.

    Or better, if Linden can increase the prim limit of each SIM, we don’t even need to worry about using more prims for our buildings.

    I want Lindens to focus on the root of the problem (Why we use them?), and review the possibilities on other solutions first.
    You can delete them anytime, why so fast?

  90. Jon Graff says:

    I agree that they could cause problems, but the advantages are too numeros to mention. As a builder I use the 20x20x0.5 prims everywhere, for platforms and walls. Less prims is more bandwith, faster load time, and LESS lag. A size limit is the best solution, 100m was mentioned several times and seems just fine. Also if there was a way to disable physics on anything over 10m, and force phantom over, say 50m, would be fine as well.

  91. Hern Worsley says:

    Making them phantom would be awfull what use is a floor or wall you can walk through?

    I could live with anything over 100m being cut out if that helped but still i think its down to the individual to use all content in SL with consideration.

  92. hugsalot says:

    I use some really simple “mega” prims that aren’t really that large (20×20). When you’re trying to build an actual building, you have to use hundreds of 10×10 panels just to do a simple floor. That adds too much load, and lag to a sim that really shouldn’t happen.

    It would be nice if there was a trade off. If you want to create a prim bigger than 10×10, the trade off is that you’ll be forced to set the 3rd dimension to less than a meter. This would be perfect for the purpose of large floors and walls for a building.

  93. Dandee Dagger says:

    I f you remove everything in in Second Life that can be used for abuse then its going to be an empty place. I appreciate that with the prim tax it makes financial sense to remove these prim saving objects, but it would be a real pity to lose everything thats been built with them.

    Why not improve the physics script to be able to handle the use of mega prims. You could even allow them to be used by everyone again if you wanted – please give us a break.

  94. Drako Nagorski says:

    it seems that most agree with a 100x100x100 limit to mega prims, and a few would like an increase in normal prim size

  95. LifeFactory Writer says:

    Well…I am glad to see this blog post, because I was busily setting about figuring out how to maxamize a 512m prim allottment limitatiton by using…dah-da-da…Megaprims!!! 20-40m in size, without spilling over onto the neighbors.

    I was not aware there were issues with them except at the 256x size (which I learned by naively opening one up…thereby titillating every well-intentioned nerd in my chat group! lol πŸ˜€ nice guys! πŸ™‚ )

    At any rate…will stop with the magaprims. But….they sure are nice when one only has 117 prims to work with. :s

    _ Life

  96. Jimmy Cassidy says:

    Idea? While not encountering any of the megaprims personally, it’s always given me a rash at the 10 meter limit. How about a 20 meter limit? This would be real helpful ( at least to me) for filling in the opening of a roof peak instead of using 2-3 prims to fabricate a ‘filler’

    thanks

    Also would cut down on the total # of prims in a sim possibly, giving a better sim performance? I dunno I’m just a diesel mechanic.

  97. ezjill Yao says:

    I use them for my garden and find them very useful….the 10×10 size limit would use too many prims to create a nice lawn. If people abuse them, my advice is to take action approach those people, rather than removing those prims!! As far as abuse is concerned, I don’t think Linden should take the easy way out (i’m still waiting for a reaction to abuse report about someone who has been harrassing and assaulting me and other people at a public beach for a couple of days in a row…set me on fire, ejected me over 2 million meters in the air, etc).

  98. Garnet Psaltery says:

    Today the mega prim, tomorrow the mega octopus!

  99. Jazzman Jibilla says:

    Try walking or flying along the Great Wall of China and you get a good example of the nuisance that mega prims can be. It’s a fabulous build but laggy.
    I use four on my property of the 20x20x.5 size and rezzing objects on top of them can be awkward. I could live without them but recognize that they are darn useful.
    Way back somebody gave me the mega prim folder and I knew nothing about them so just started dragging them out…HA HA..scared the bejiminies out of me when one went from horizon to horizon. I dunno of something that size is really necessary and is dangerous in the wrong hands.
    If it comes to a vote…I say delete.

  100. Veronica Quackenbush says:

    One clarification that seemed so obvious to me I didn’t mention it in my original comment: whereas 10 meters is definitely too small, it’s a no-brainer that there should be *some* kind of size limit to megaprims. I can not think of any legitimate use that would require a prim size over 128 meters (you’d only need two of those to cross a sim)

  101. nel shan says:

    I don’t know what makes a prim “mega” other than it being over the 10m limit, which is arbitrarily small for building in SL. I’d like the limit to be 100m, but I could live with 50m.

  102. Jason Swain says:

    Mega Prims are Great!

    Usage:

    My skybox is made of 40x40x0.8 megaprims and have vastly reduced my prim count. Also I know of builders that use them for building large buildings without needing lots of prims.

    Possible Solution to Physics engine problems:

    If the “enable physical” option for prims over 10x10x10 in size was disabled, would the physics engine need to be able to compute them?

    Personal Comments:

    I would actively support the use of mega prims. I am a big supporter of the fantastic work that Linden Labs does. I believe that the use of megaprims are part of the features that enable users to produce low prim homes.

    I am pleased to see LL asking the residents what they think of this topic and wish LL all the best in there improvements.

    Keep up the great work!

  103. Deiter Meyer says:

    Please do not take away our megaprims. I’ve yet to see them actually used irresponsibly in the field and know of dozens of builds where they make worthless land worthwhile… not to mention star fields and other virtual environments. Besides, it’s not like griefers can’t be just as obnoxious with regular prims. Punish those guilty of abuse with account suspension, not the rest of us by removing a very useful too.

  104. MrLunk voom says:

    so I think in general all agree that megaprims under 256 if they do not put to much strain on physics and graphics engines should be made official…

    Then maybe you should make all basic prims sizable to a max size greater then 10x10x10 but within the possibilities and limits of both engines…

    So for instance let us use all prims up to a size of 25x25x25 wich will make the larger objects allss a lot prim ‘ cheaper’ to construct…

    Greetz,
    MrLunk Voom
    2 linden per 7 minuten ==> http://slurl.com/secondlife/Cryophile/146/211/28 (ZOMBIES get Kicked without warning)…

  105. 1337 Seattlew says:

    Why not allow the estate owner to put restrictions on how large the prims can be in the estate tools?

  106. Jackal Ennui says:

    Great example of content done with huge (sculpted) prims: http://www.lucidmovement.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2901&postcount=1

    But anything over 256×256 sounds unreasonable and unnecessary

  107. Lucifer Lockjaw says:

    What’s with the 10 meter limit?

    Is it an issue of server or client capacity in some way? If the trade-offs are reasonable, then increasing that limit somewhat might be the way to go. The other consideration is, of course, potential for abuse. I’m not sure how megaprims get abused now, other than the example given in the parent entry. But i’m sure you have done much more comprehensive analysis on the problems. Again: what are the tradeoffs?

    Clearly there is utility in being able to create prims larger than the current limit. If there is a gap between the current size limit and some value that has greater potential for abuse, then close the gap, by all means. Raise the normal size limit to something short of the abuse threshhold.

    The other question is how to deal with existing megaprims. How about leaving existing megaprims in place, but disallow copying them if they are outside the newly raised normal limits? Enforce this with the permissions system after searching for the prims, and with a new client that will automatically enforce the no-copy rule.

    Provide design workarounds for typical cases where the lack of a very large prims will be a problem. Think of different ways to solve the problems megaprims now address.

  108. Somatika says:

    If your rid them you kill some good builds.
    When I use them I try to keep most of it Phantom to keep it away from lag. If you do it that way they save on lag! Less objects less to render, less to load. Getting rid of them is stupid and a bad move. If you where to rid them because of the griefing purpose then you need to rid all griefing. That includes Gun’s, Non-Push Orbits, Spammers, a good portion of LSL commands. So basically kill all of SL to make it fair to those who use mega prims for good not bad.

    Hint Hint Guns can be good and not always used for griefing. But Mega prims can be the same way.

    Plus the Creative tools You will take away by Removing them.

    Point is maybe make them all phantom. or add support for them. I mean there are limits. but come on! do not be lazy and nix them. “That Equals lazy Company / Dev’s”

    I am with Gene Replacement on this. you have hit the nail on the nose with that info.

  109. FWord Utorid says:

    Here’s a thought… Maybe we can do BOTH. Nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it:

    http://code.google.com/p/sl-polymorphism-proxy/

    the second life polymorphism proxy permits visitors to second life to completely alter their user experience by adjusting the datastream before it is presented to the viewer. In this way, primitives with specific attributes could be modified to APPEAR as bigprims without affecting the experience of others. This proxy has many other features, is open source, and waiting for you to make a contribution and enjoy it.

    Do the impossible.

  110. Dartagan Shepherd says:

    I would say either leave reasonable sized ones or increase the size of normal prims and get rid of mega prims. Obviously as other stated they’re very useful in buildings, floors, etc and save prims. Prims are too hard to come by as it is…allowing bigger prims in any shape would be MOST helpful to some builders.

  111. Winter Ventura says:

    20x20x0.5
    20x20x60
    32x32x40
    1.725×7.25×40

    These prims are EXTREMELY useful when making buildings. Clipped and trimmed they can turn a 40 prim fence into a 4 prim pne. A 60 prim paved surface can be done in 10. Certain structures are simply impractical without them.

    Examples of well used huge prims…
    Lost Angles (closed sim) the streets and sidewalks are made with them, saving hundreds of prims to be shared among the sim’s residents.
    Motorati (particularly Go-Go Mini-Racing). the larger curves are simply unacheiveable without huge prims.

    There are examples of the larger spheres being hollowed, phantomed, and painted black… to create an “eternal night” around a build.

    but as you say, the larger the prim, the flakier the results.

    these “conservative” prims definitely show some uses.. particularly that 20x20x0.5, which makes flooring and framing in large stuctures a breeze.

    Realistically though, what would be better, is to (after a period of time to replace them, eliminate these prims from the grid.. and up the maximum scales to 30m. a 30x30x30 maximum would give developers a LOT more fleximility, and would ensure they were using the “up to date meshes” with the “up to date” collission models.

    Would that fix everything? I don’t know.. I’m not a programmer. Surely SOME of the larger prims have uses as well.. but the “average builder” would probably like to be able to make larger airships, cylandrical buildings, longer tubes and walls… without needing to resort to “unofficial” means.

    sure, if the limit were 30.. that would still harsh SOME people’s grooves. but if you set the limit to this (i think) reasonable neighborhood (32m?).. then perhaps yall could work out the kinks in the collission models, and we’d have big prims that DIDN’T trash the place unexpectedly.

    I’d definitely give up my “larger than 30” prims, for a 30x30x30 prim that had a good physics reaction.

  112. Echo Kinsella says:

    I know that some of the most gorgeous landscape and buildings I have seen in second life has been done with the big prims. I would so hate to lose that just because of someone immaturity. I would prefer a solution be sought so those of us that don’t abuse them can still enjoy them for their usefulness.

  113. Smith Barnard says:

    I have bought several of the mega prims under different creaters and makers, and I dont like to build or use them…I find they are hard to work with.

  114. Hiroaki Rhino says:

    I see people settling on 100x100x100 as max, but 256x256x0.01 is useful isn’t it?

  115. Keiko Rau says:

    Michael,

    I’ll answer the last question first – if megaprims were removed, half of the mainland would disappear. Its all about size. Obviously anything bigger than 256 has no place on a 256 sized sim. One could argue that there is little need for the 256 megaprim too. 65535 is clearly of no legitimate use and it should be removed from inventory (I dont think there are any inworld πŸ™‚

    There are of course legitimate uses for megaprims, and uses that we mere mortals cant really see as causing havok with havok (smirk). The 32x16x10 and 32x32x10 make a perfect foundation for your regular sized block, especially if its on a slope. Naturally, in most cases these arent usually scripted.

    Im concernd at your examples above – citing that MPs often cause parcel encroachment (so do trees, and 10×10 prims), and I dont think that really stands up as a reason against. Invisible barriers, well I agree some inexperienced users may not be aware of what they have encountered, but even with the cut prims (ie a 32×16 is really a 32×32 cut in half) I havnt seen that effect. I would imagine that if its invisible, its because it has an alpha texture – see my next point. Abusive residents are always going to find a way to be abusive, so that falls into the first category of not being unique to MPs and therefore not being a real argument against.

    I understand your concern over the larger MPs, with Havok 4 coming through the pipeline. Recall my first comment, that a reasonable limit would be no more than 256 (perhaps inclusive, and possibly some of the bigger end of the <256 ones.)

    As for the graphics engine, same as for Havok.

    As for experience, I have not had any bad experience at all…. including all the times my parcels have been encroached (by trees and normal prims mostly). The one time I was accidentally encroached by a MP, a nice friendly IM to my neighbour soon solved that. They hadnt realised and as soon as they did, it was fixed. Encroachment is the same problem for any size prim… One should turn on property lines and carefully align, but im sure many dont even know what property lines are.

    Good experiences, well, they are (when used responsibly) great for building foundations, or even for keeping the prim count down on a building so you can fill if full of stuff you bought. Ive used them (and at times advocated their use) for that kind of thing on many occasions.

    Some good examples, well I dont want to put any of my neighbours on the spot, but I will offer my home, Deva Loka 40, 233 (foundation) and some of the surrounding buildings, and my factory at Bamseom 54, 105, and my Data Center nextdoor at 110, 143. (building and foundations on both of those – yes, their emptyish… so many prims, so little time… but Im getting there).

    Thanks for taking the time to actually ask about this. A lot of us do use them responsibly. I hope you can come up with a compromise so that the smaller, more useful MPs can remain.

  116. D. Spitz says:

    looks like most here like megas up to 256 or something. I would totally agree that, if there is a way to make them not wearable. I have a horrible imagining of an other shocking wings show. And than LL could also make them official supported.
    Ciao

  117. JetZep Zabelin says:

    Some prims are very useful for building such as the 20×20. Taking this away from builders will only create a new problem when we’re reported for continuing to use them for useful purposes.

  118. Smeg Mcleod says:

    I agree that anything over 256m should be removed. Anything under that could have a legitimate use for a build.

  119. Kara Spengler says:

    I used a 20 m wide disc cylinder for a build. To do the same thing with regular size prims it would have required sculpting prims just so I could do the 20 m circle!

  120. disisme says:

    I have seen all both good and bad use of megaprims, and everything stated here is correct..they DO cause ‘passeg through hollow’ issues etc. I use them on my island for a mall, and they work perfectly well. byt the same token, I have seen them cause lag….how much I dont know, but there is certainly some effect.

    I think live n let live is the best approach, and handle them on a case by case nature.

  121. Mario Fonzarelli says:

    think all mega prims should be allowed or allow us to make larger prims like 20-30m this will infact cut ppls prim usage in half when building and creatless lag because u will be able to use larger prims rather than a bunch of small ones

  122. Lazarus Longstaff says:

    YAY MEGAPRIMS!

    That says it all πŸ™‚

    Prims don’t abuse people, people do!

    Cheers,
    Laz

    PS-

    You guys are batting a thousand on these last two blog entries – any chance someone is working on the system-crashing memory leak? I lost a couple of items yesterday when they were returned to me and it resulted in the client crashing. The constant load as thousands are inadvertently disconnecting/reconnecting cant be helpful either.

    Would someone please acknowledge this issue and give us some good data on it?

    Thanks!
    Laz

  123. Hal says:

    What about the megaprims the Lindens use in their builds? Do they have a stay of execution? πŸ™‚

    I agree with the (appearing) general consensus – anything over 100m is silly, almost everything under that can be extremely useful!

  124. Chili Theas says:

    I love my 16 x 16 and 16 x 32 (not so huge) prims, because these allow me to make full use of my 512 mΒ² parcel despite the meager prim allowance πŸ˜‰ I vote to keep these and some others, maybe up to 128 m.
    If the prim size was raised to, say, 20 or 30 meters and huge prims banned entirely, that would also be fine by me.

  125. Spikez Stine says:

    I disagree with removing megaprims. It is VERY helpful when conserving prims. I had a 1024 sq. m land to build a house. And I only used a few prims total thnaks to megaprims. Every mega prim is good except for the infinite checkerboard, some griefers drag copy them from the ground to the cloud! But please don’t remove megaprims just for that. LOL.

  126. Just about anyone who has ever created a large build will appreciate huge prims. I use 50 x 50 x 1 for the outer structure of my skybox. That’s only 6 prims as opposed to 100. You can fly in and around the skybox and not collide with any invisible barriers, and it’s one of the most lag-free areas I’ve visited in SL.

    If LL removes huge prims, that will hurt mostly the people with larger parcels of land who want bigger buildings but don’t want to use up all their prims on the build.

    I personally have never encountered any huge prim abuse, although I know it exists. I have, however, seen plenty of builds that wouldn’t have been possible without huge prims.

    Taking away huge prims because some people abuse them or use them ineffectively is like taking away scripting because there are people who code poorly and create lots of lag.

    I think issues relating to huge prims should be handled on a case-by-case basis and huge prim griefers should be handled just as any other griefer is handled.

    Why take away a good thing for everyone simply because *some* people abuse it?

    Thank you for reading. =)

  127. Reg Mannonen says:

    Mega Prims up to 50sqm or even 100sqm are usefull. I use them as floors and fake land.

    To say these should be removed because griefers use them brings up the point that most griefing i’ve seen and been the victim of is from 10×10 screaming prims and those that follow you. Shall we disable this very useful aspect of building because it is used to grief??

    I would think the smaller versions, 20×20, 50×50 should be allowed, but perhaps not able to be made physical? The larger versions are just silly, how many of the population even own more than one sim and would have any use for a prim larger then that? Even a 1/4 sim sized prim would be of no use for most people.

    So far there has been little data available for how “laggy” these mega prims are. Some say they crash sims, others say they have no effect. No one seems to know what the effects really are, just like sculptys.

    With the new physics engine, i could see some issues. IF mega prims have to go so havok can run better, then i’ll deal and be happy about it.

    BUT if it’s just because some people use them to grief, then no, any prim can be used to grief, and where do we draw the line? I’d hate to go down that slippery slope. Griefing should be delt with differently, not by outlawing things that most people don’t abuse.

    My use of mega prims is low, i think i have six out on my land right now at *Dolphin’s Reef* they are used to make my false beach, a 20×20 dance floor and I have three being used as my workshop so i don’t have to use 20 prims just to have a platform. I’ve purposly limited their use so as not to affect my neighbors or to grief anyone, but not knowing what their effects actually are, i’ve decided to use this limited amount and for the last six months there seems to have been no effect on the sim what so ever. The laggiest things i own are due to poor programming and are all less than 10sqm!

    I do think it is time to make a decision though. Having the fate and effects of mega prims be such an unknown makes it difficult for everyone. Let’s finally decide on allowable sizes or just get rid of them all together.

  128. Veronica Quackenbush says:

    As for the actual rather than theoretical size being used as the limit: I have a particular deeply dimpled sphere I use in some of my builds. Its actual physical size is 1.36 meters along its longest axis. It’s based on a theoretical 10 meter sphere, so I can not make it larger than this size, even though it does not look at all large.

  129. Phoxpaws Vollmer says:

    Anything over 100×100 is really unnecessary, the 20×20 and 40×40 and smaller ones and in between ones come in very handy in building. If people are going to grief, they are going to grief. Maybe age verification will help there, but banning large prims won’t.

  130. Plasma Raymaker says:

    Please do not take away something that has been created. That is not progress.
    Onward and upwards!

    I use 1024 x 1024 x 1 prims (on Plasma, a private estate) for visual effects that cannot be accomplished otherwise. I use 256 x 256 x1 prims to build sim walls so physical objects can bounce off rather than go off world. (Gravity level on Plasma).

  131. Hermit Barber says:

    Megaprims serve many useful purposes, from planets to platforms. Learning to use them appropriately is a learning curve (particularly in the light of all the disinformation out there), but this is true of many htings in SL.
    Physics mechanisms (e.g. guns) can also be used for griefing, but I don’t see a discussion of removing those “tools” although their uses and the amount of grief they cause is undoubtedly greater. Lets try not to regulate the tools creators use even if we need to sometimes manage consequent abuse.

  132. Adrian says:

    The problems cited are 1) the physics engine when over 10m and 2) display engine when over 256m.

    Gee, let’s think… oh I know! How about 1) not let them be over 256m 2) not let them be flagged physical.

    I’m so creative! Now you don’t have to delete them, and can even let us create new ones.

  133. Fox Absolute says:

    So, essentially, Havok4 can’t handle something Havok1 can handle, despite that something being a hack.

    Shouldn’t Havok4 theoretically be able to handle a NATURAL implementation of massive prims?

  134. Handmadeandroid zenovka says:

    Save the trees!

  135. Grazel Cosmo says:

    I think large prims are fine but not the really large ones. I’d say up to 20×20, or at most 64×64, 100×100 is pushing th elimits (and people keep in mind any limit affects all 3 sides, pretty sure they can’t limit it to 20 on two sides and 5 on the third). Another thing that could help with limiting abuse would affect ANY prim: not only check the center of a prim but if any prims enclosing sphere goes more than 1m into a parcel that parcel’s owner has the right to return the prim. I know this is hard to code but I had problems in the past where a linked set of prims was ‘homed’ in the neighbors parcel but 90% of the object was in my parcel but because the center of the root prim wasn’t I couldn’t return it (so maybe also if the center of any prim in a linked set is in a parcel the parcel owner can return the entire object without breaking the link).

  136. raudf says:

    I’ve had no problem with my 20x20x0.5 that I use for my shop floors. They are completely within my boundaries and when used as flooring cause no invisible/visible encroaching on other people’s property. The bigger ones, however, I have found does cause the invisible encroaching, regardless of the visible size of the prim.

    I checked the 20x20x0.5 for the ‘invisible encroaching’ before I decided to work with them, because I didn’t want to cause the invisible encroaching that leaves people hunting for that dark grey spot that doesn’t seem to exist….

  137. Estella says:

    I have used them in my builds for a long time on private estates and seen estate owners use them too with no problems. I normally only use the 20×20 ones though I’ve never used anything larger for my buildings. I don’t see a problem with them at all for private sims but mainland I really don’t have a clue. I agree anything over 256 should be removed.

  138. Maffi Lu says:

    oh hey – never had any problems with them

    i vote for keeping them – imagine all the awesome builds that would disappear due to them

    and for the graphics engine – FIX IT :V

    yes that sounds easy and probably is not easy at all – hurf

    but i had to say it – and again – keep megaprims \o/

  139. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    If the physics engine can support it, then 20 cubed should be the max IMHO. It’s a workable size.

    Obviously the use of them is to help save on the ever lingering max prim count. 20x20x20 max deters from the obvious grieving problem as well as provides a means for residents to use them to help save on the prim count.

    If anything, thank you for considering a formal support for them (rather, more tolerance for their usage instead of just wiping them clean away).

    My question back to you is this…IF you support the use of megaprims up to 20x20x20, why not just update the software so it’s resident in the system instead of needing to obtain them by other means?

  140. Winter Ventura says:

    important to note also, that teh default state of the linden trees are ALSO many times over 10m in one dimension. Doing a blanket kill on all prims over “dimension 10m” would deforest the grid.

  141. I so tried to educate users of megaprims, especially with users building on the mainland at sim borders. But no one would listen to me or understand that the lag in the sim was due to their huge build.

    Used responsibly I think megaprims are a great thing. It’s hard to educate new builders in what is using them responsibly.

    Since they help so much with limited prim availablity and the hurt it would cause to eliminate them, I think they should stay, the ones already in use. Maybe we can somehow prevent the rezzing of new copies.

  142. Ninamori Writer says:

    I think we should keep them. if people want to annoy others by griefing their are other BETTER ways to make people vary angry that doesnt involve ‘huge prims’. if you get rid of huge prims people will just move onto something else to make everyone mad and it will solve NOTHING.

    I use a huge 100M X 100M x 100M sphere above a sim. its made to look like a sun with a ‘space’ texture on the inside for my building(best vewed at midnight πŸ˜‰ ). this prim is also set to phantom and their is NO way to replace that prim with some other type.

    http://slurl.com/secondlife/Phantasy%20Island/134/134/504

  143. Ganesha Xi says:

    lol @ gene replacement’s comment
    the good: they enable much nicer builds such as decently-sized domes and rounded rooftops.
    the bad: people don’t know how to use them
    the ugly: freely available to new residents.

    maybe make them only available to people that know how to properly use them? like by avatar age? delete them at will?

  144. Slade says:

    I cant imagine life without these large prims, they’ve helped in so many of my builds I’ve lost track. Folks can grief with regular prims if they like, it doesn’t take a large prim to do it. Yes i’ve only seen one use for the 65Ksqm square (artificial sky on a private sim) and can see why that’s a gonner, but even the 256×256 has become wonderful for platforms for our workshop over our sim…. don’t let the bad apples stifle the creativity, it’s what makes SL unique πŸ™‚

  145. Adam Spark says:

    Suggestions:

    People who do not realize the results of rezzing a large prim cause issues accidently. Yes, there are people who do so intentionally, but accidents also happen. Documentation of the results of rezzing prims of a certain size would help cut down on instances of trouble created by the rezzing of these things.

    Keep a limit, but increase it within reason if possibe to cut down the motivation to get around limits. 15 meters perhaps? 20?

    Maybe increase prim allowance?

    If doable, maybe give land/estate owners the ability to block objects of a certain size or larger.

  146. Niccia Straaf says:

    Well, having been on SL for less than a year, I’ve watched it go from a bustling VERY enjoyable place to game and chat and be creative to a place only the very tolerant remain in. Why? Because LL takes shortcuts and uses generalized excuses to do away with something that takes a little more effort than deletion to fix. The enabling of mass voice caused a wave of people who own land to ban its use. The banning of gambling and all things ‘non skill oriented’ cost SL thousands upon thousands of members who used to regularly sign on and spend that money amongst the others of SL who used such things as mega and macro prims in their building.
    The land sales slump, the slump in business that was formerly booming nicely, the annoyance of having to listen to everyone chattering on Voice or asking if you have Voice…. and now the possibility of losing mega/macro prims? What next will be cut out, objects that make sound, walls around properties? Come on LL, there’s a far better solution for this. Allow land developers and housing builders to use giant prims…. but make them available for creation without the spatial waste in the invisible overlap that was the aftereffect of mega and macro prim creation (the reason making them non phantom creates invisible blocks.) People who don’t happen to have enough cash or lindens to own their own sim with massive prim count can create far more and enhance SL far more if the base prim size was able to be bigger, without the inisible overlap which is causing others to have such issues with it.
    If huge prims are an issue in the size of sim/region walls, then create the ability to ‘wall’ in one’s land so that it’s a nice pretty backdrop for places which need scenery more fitting, aka. woods for a park instead of condos and malls and spinning signs; or acity scape instead of SL water at the edge of a sim, etc. Rather than choose the easy way out of things, listen to the suggestions of your supporters, whose monthly and sometimes weekly contributions are the funding for the whole idea that is Second Life.

  147. Theodore Folsom says:

    Please keep em. If you really ban the megaprims, you may cause a lot of damage.

    thanks

  148. Paulo Dielli says:

    Limit to a certain size. A cylinder of 20×20 can’t be made without a megaprim. Smaller megaprims are essential.

  149. My sim “Curious Kitties” (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Curious%20Kitties/200/214/21) is a fairly good example of legit use of these giant prims. It reduces lag in some ways due to having to load less prims per bigger buildings. The more dangerous ones I have put to phantom and am using the smaller ones or proper cut ones for floors in some places. It would be a shame to see these go. If it causes trouble with the physics then maybe make them only phantom enabled the same as flexi prims? =^.^=

  150. Hank Rucker says:

    I for one would mourn the loss of Big/Mega/Huge prims. I could see banning them if they are larger than one Sim more than one direction (the use for a huge prim taller than one Sim would be to allow for an artist’s backdrop high into the sky for projects – But I don’t think Gene made any this size).

    But anything smaller than a Sim has very practical uses. I’d rather have the Big prims and no new physics engine.

    Personally, I’d like to see an automated system (perhaps for paying customers only?) where we could request a specific size of Big prim, and the system would check to see that it was smaller than a Sim, and generate it for use, perhaps using a Transfer rez box, into which you could add a full-rights cube, which would be used in the creation process, making the box owner the creator of the Big prim.

    I’m not going to hold my breath for that one, but I do cast my vote for keeping Big prims that are not larger than one Sim.

  151. Gareee taov says:

    I also am a builder an dfavor megaprim use. As others have stated, ginormous megaprims are issues, and should be eliminated. The advent of sculpies enhances the practical use of megaprims as well. I use some 20x20s for small floating islands on my land.

    If you are looking into relimiting prim creation sizes, how abotu also reducing the size restictions from prims so they no longer have to be tortured down in size? Maybe allowing minimum prim size down to one additional decimal point down of what is currently allowed without torturing tricks?

    Personally, I’d liek to see nothign larger then 50x50x50, and I’d also like full manipulation of them as well.. so things like Hollow work properly.

    Maybe also force anything over a certain size to only be phantom?

    Looks liek the only real peopel who dislike them are people who have run into abuse of them, and anything can really be abused.

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