No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned

Recent comments on this blog, and at least one post on a Resident blog, express concern that Linden Lab is planning to raise prices on monthly maintenance fees for land. In order to clarify our pricing intentions, I want to reiterate that:

– we have no immediate plans to raise the ‘grandfathered’ island pricing. This doesn’t mean it won’t change at some point, but certainly not in Q4.

– we are evaluating changes to the configuration of premium /basic subscription models and to mainland tier pricing, but have no specific plans, and again, we don’t expect anything to change in Q4.

– we are also reviewing some pricing changes on the LindeX associated with rolling out more international payment mechanisms, but the variety of global payment mechanisms make this very challenging, and we don’t expect any changes in Q4.

Should we decide at a future time that we need to implement pricing changes, we’ll give as much advance notice as we possibly can to facilitate your planning.

About Robin Linden

Be the Change. You must be the change you wish to see in the world. ---Mahatma Gandhi
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150 Responses to No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned

  1. Atashi Toshihiko says:

    Thanks for the clarification Robin! Glad to hear that pricing / fees will remain stable at least through 2007. Sorry to be a pest but there’s two other things I’m hoping for more information on — how are things going with the IDV stuff, will there be some beta time for the in-world aspects of this, now that the registration beta has been going for a while? I’m also interested in the Estate level governance topic which was blogged about in April, then not a peep about it since then.

    Cheers!

  2. OpenAndSay Ah says:

    I’m hoping that as technology gets better that we can pay less for more land/prims and not more. The land costs are definitely near the limits of what I’m willing to pay for. I really hope that it wouldn’t be the other way around. It’s virtual land not real.
    If it doesn’t get cheaper, then the business model is likely too aggressive in spending.

  3. OpenAndSay Ah says:

    PS… you guys are doing a great job though!

  4. So newer estate owners will continue to subsidize the mainland and our competition. 50% higher fees with no measures to balance the market in sight.

  5. Hypatia Callisto says:

    thanks for the clarification 🙂

  6. Calin McKinney says:

    I agree with #2 OpenAndSay…please consider making things easier for your investors…in-world land owners. There needs to be some kind of balance so that we are able to maintain our business, pay our bills (including Linden Lab tier), and still have a little left over to re-invest. I greatly appreciate the extra service you give to your best customers, and that has helped me to decide to stay and continue onward in this virtual world adventure!!

  7. U M says:

    Wait a moment you said last year when people complaining about the cost increase you said no kater the 2008 Feb you would raise those grandfather cost to the going rate? Make up your mind? you were to give 60 day notice for said raises now you chanaging you minds? What is it your going to raise all cost even higher later? is that why you postponing the rate increases? in one way its good the increase is not coming. But the bad part is the possiblity of it being higher might happen sooner then we think.

  8. Jeff says:

    #4 As an island owner you get many more options than a mainland sim owner has available to them, powerful tools for land maintenance and other things. So no, you’re not subsidizing us, unless you figure out a way to give us estate tools on mainland sims, then I’d gladly pay the tier difference. Additionally, the sim I’m in was not setup specifically for me, for my needs, and is surrounded by 8 other sims and some of the jerks that fill them.

  9. Raymond Figtree says:

    @Nikki: Don’t forget you get a lot of added functionality, terraforming, terrain and management flexibility for your additional 50%, and your initial purchase price was no doubt lower than most people have paid historically for mainland sims. Also you get low lag, no rotating ads and views of water surrounding your island.

    In this economic climate it would be suicide to raise mainland tier rates. It could quite possibly be the end of SL. then the island you paid for would not be worth very much at all.

  10. Lion Ewry says:

    I for one–would sure like to see business here get a break of some kind with this–we are helping SL by supplying the content that help make this place interesting–most are barely making it.

    Closely related to this problem is if Traffic meant something that actually indicated where people are actually buying things

  11. Lillie Yifu says:

    If tier goes up on mainland, I would expect land to hit 4L/M the next day.

  12. HealthStar says:

    Great news to hear. IMO tier is overpriced as is for the level of service recieved. I would hate to think that a platform as currently unstable and bug ridden as this had it’s makers even considering raising prices. I pay tier on a full sim right now, 200usd a month is hard to shell out when I am having daily issues with bugs and crashes and lagg, a price increase would not be a welcome sight at all.

  13. Ante Flan says:

    They’ll do it in Q5, I know it!

  14. johnny says:

    so all the people in the e u with sims and v a t should all be out of buisness by then

  15. correct me if im wrong.. but are we not in Q1 FY08?

  16. Desmond Shang says:

    Great to have info Robin!

    Thank you – it’s much appreciated.

  17. Very good to hear this news but even better to see such fears addressed. I can only speak for myself but it’s good to see Linden Lab’s recent blog directly addressing current widespread misconceptions and rumors.

  18. I really hope the tier doesn’t ever go up, this will really suck if it goes up even more, 195 is hard enough for me to pay every month,

    If pricing does go up on the private islands I will be forced to probably give mine up.

    I am glad that through the remainder of 2007 prices will remain the same, But I really hope for the grandfathered rates, stay the same.

  19. Joshua Perenti says:

    Er Robin, you mean as much notice as you were about to hike the prices for EU customers. Oh no wait you didnt even tell some people before you did, cant wait to see you guys in court over that. illegal in europe! Luckily enough it didnt happen to me but did a lot of friends i know! I advise all of you that had this happen to them to contact your VAT office within your respective countries, we have HMRC in the UK, and they confirmed it is indeed illegal to charge it with out specifying they are charging it.

  20. Pol McLaglen says:

    They don’t need to raise prices. They’re getting all their boonies off of us Europeans in the form of so called VAT with no VAT numbers given, even when requested by me.

    So us Europeans had better demand our VAT numbers from Linden Labs for any VAT charges incurred, which they have to supply us BY LAW upon request, or we can surmise that their VAT charges are fraudulent….

    I want each and every bill taken from me that incurs VAT to have a legal VAT Number that I can trace to see if the monies are actually going to the UK Treasury and not their pockets.

    So come on LL, give us our VAT Numbers, as is our legal right.

    Pol McLaglen.

  21. Rene Erlanger says:

    If Grandfathered islands did rise in Tier, i would most certainly sell all of my SIMs. Its just not value for money when you consider the general game performance. I get red bars lag on residential sims when hardly anyone is actually on it.

    i have had to suck up the additional VAT charges ……enough already!!. Given the impact of VAT on new Europeans even considering buying SIM’s or mainland plots, the impact of gambling ban, the future impact of Age verification……there is only one direction Linden Labs should be going in regarding Tiers inorder to stimulate the economy…and that’s to reduce all tier charges right across the board!.

    This is meant to be a global game, but how many peoples can realistically spend $1675 for a new sim or afford the $295 monthly tiers in a already flattened economy.?

    One has to consider countires average national earnings, which really means only North Americans, West Europeans, Japanese and Australians are able enough with their disposable income to afford it. Well the latest VAT changes practically wipes out Europeans because of a competitive disadvantage, so that just leaves the other 3 regions to pick up the slack.

    My making land more affordable you bring back more people into the equation and might see less barren lands across the grid and more Tiers collected by LL. It’s about scale of Economy……and in that department i think Linden Labs are actually clueless!

    I also have a Mainland sim for my sins, with a large Mall on it. It severely suffers from lag most of time and that’s without the use of campers making it a not so crowded area. Some of my vendors have not been able to TP there to renew their rents, potential shoppers have landed unable to move in the lag and TP’d straight back out!
    I sent Linden Support a ticket on the 26th Sept……and guess what, nearly 2 weeks later the ticket hasn’t even been looked at. The status of my ticket is still “New”…..i would prefer to read that as “Old, but Linden Labs doesn’t feel it’s that important”

    For that sort of customer service, Linden Labs should dare to even contemplate price increases???
    Should people really be paying $195 to $354 (incl.VAT) for any sim when it at times its hard to fdo the following :

    -Unable to control walking due to lag
    -Unable to fly consistenly without flying off world or
    several sims futher on.
    – The potential of losing inventory costing real money not being reimbursed
    – Unable to TP a good number of time even to non-full SIMS
    – Unable to use Search consistenly, which has direct
    impact on sales too.
    – Search affecting on Classified Adverts for a week but not working 24/7 for a week. Again money down the pan.
    – Account balance not loading or problems with transaction history not updating immediatley
    – Customers buying goods, either taking money twice because of the of the lag or not delivering products to them.
    – Arriving at a location, but the area takes 5-10 mins to load, and wasting a lot of time looking at grey matter
    – inventory taking an age to load, especially when you want to re-texture

    …….and the list of basic functionality goes on.

    If Linden Labs wants to retain it customer base long term, then those basic functionality issues need to be sorted out yesterday. Forget VOICE..forget WINDLIGHT…just let me walk in a straight line unimpeded by lag for a change!.

    I need not remind LL that their are other virtual platforms being developed and are already at beta stage!

    i

  22. mztry Moody says:

    …as one of the many landowners who fall underneath the concierge level…i would really not like to see our tiers raised…as it stands now the only thing we have is ur support website and i cant say that my overall treatment from them has been great…poor to muddling maybe…yes i am one who strongly opposed the removal of live help admittedly but if i have a problem i have to wait until u get around to it…will that improve if u raise tiers?…will there be more benefits for the err lower rungs of land tiers?…or is it a case of pay up and shut up?…some may say well sell ur land…dont whinge and so on…but we all pay tiers and it really should be a better service we get before u even think of raising them…we all invest money by paying tiers and m’ship…improvements first then maybe just maybe we wouldnt be complaining…

  23. Odious Wallaby says:

    If anything, the goal should be to eventually offer lower prices to all landowners for their holdings while providing them with a higher level of service as technology allows and your business model becomes more stable. I am happy to hear that there are no immediate plans to raise prices on those who have put so much into SL. A great milestone would be to eventually bring all island owners fees back down to the pre-increase level.

  24. 21 Rene Erlanger

    lets not forget the us dollar is 1.46 (last checked) to 1 euro.

  25. I’m happy to hear there won’t be any changes made for a while but I do agree with many people on the above points. There should be a little more effort to lower the prices. If its not profitable try offering more services. People would gladly pay a little extra to be able to for example make prims over the size of 10x10x10 on their own private sim. Just a suggestion. =^.^=

  26. Renee Faulds says:

    The lights are on at Linden Labs: Posting this notice @

    Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 9:10 PM PDT by: Robin Linden

    Nice to see somebody at Linden Labs our time of day !!!

  27. Rene Erlanger says:

    24 going somewhere

    Rate of exchange doesn’t come into it……..its about disposable income and standard of living!

    Go look up and see what the average e.g Brasilian’s monthly salary is….then come back here on this blog and tell me if you think that either $195 or $295 montly tiers are affordable to them!!

  28. inacentaur says:

    I believe that as much effort should be done to keep the current pricing scheme, but I also note several other means for capital that may allow for that.

    I second Ameshin’s suggestion on allowing for different pricing for different premium accounts.

    For example: there could be —

    Builder Premium Accounts that allow for special priv’s, like the ability to *create* megaprims and access a special sculpty creator or something.

    Scripter’s Premium Account for direct integration with Eclipse, etc.

    Estate Owner’s Account, that lets them manage all their estates on one interface… (the ability to have multiple views shown on one client screen, etc.)

    and so on.

  29. sadly it doesnt matter if it’s affordable to us. is it affordable to LL to keep them at 195 or raise them to 295. That my friend is the question. And yes… the exchange rate does come into play when you use your CC or go to the bank and withdraw us dollars, or write a check for us dollar amount. Your buying us dollar items (tier) you pay the us dollar exchange rate to your currency.

  30. Breen Whitman says:

    “No Q4 Pricing Changes Planned”

    Hmm, is it just me or do i now stare nervously at Q1/Q2 2008.

  31. Sandra says:

    So, what you saying is “We won’t raise the fees now, because (european) members are already pissed at the whole VAT issue, so let’s wait a few months, until they have accepted the situation and THEN raise the costs.”

    The monthly fees are already quite expensive, especially with all the lags, bugs and technical limitations.

    Now, if you were telling, that you would (someday) raise the fees and also raise the prim limit (and give us back mega prims), maybe I could accept it.

    In that case I would just sell some land, so that my monthly costs wouldn’t blast my budget (and goodbye “own-sim-dream”).

  32. Gantheral Mason says:

    @31 thats where I’d say it’s time to petition and take action of sorts if you really disagree.

  33. Broccoli Curry says:

    Premium, as it stands, really isn’t that good a deal.

    Be bold, give people a reason to go premium – like limiting free accounts to 500 inventory items, make voice part of the premium account and, how’s this for a good one – only allow premiums to sell on the Lindex (but anyone can buy).

    If you reduced land costs to compensate, you would be surprised as to how many people would buy more land than they already have, beyond what they are currently paying. Oh, and whilst we’re at it, how about the low prim sims individually instead of having to buy in a pack of 4 and tacking on to a full island? Trust me when I say they would sell very well.

    Broccoli

  34. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    @7

    Actually, Robin and Philip made two promises during the townhall meeting (check the blog history for Nov of ’06)

    1. No tier increase “throughout 2007” (Earliest effective date then would be 1 Jan ’08 – Q1)
    2. Minimum 60 day advanced notice to grandfathered region owners in the event of tier increase

    If they were to increase tier on 1 Jan 08, the latest they could notify the sim owners is 2 Nov 07.

  35. Blinders Off says:

    And if anyone after looking back at LL history believes this announcement for one second you have no one to blame but yourself. Or, if this announcment is on the level, watch out for January 2 2008. LOL

    Or does anyone think it is actually fair for some members to have to pay $295 a month (European users now $350 a month) while others are paying $195 or even $150 a month?

    Now I don’t begrudge people getting sims at $195 a month. I do think it is unfair to merchants who have to try to compete with such sims while paying 50% more monthly tier charge. This whole situation is unethical. (And please don’t anyone start talking about “class 5 servers”. LL packs 4 sims to a server regardless and have themselves admitted Class 5’s have no discernable speed/performance difference than a Class 4).

    Just another in a long line of knee-jerk policies and untrustworthy PR announcments. No apologies on my part for telling it like it is.

  36. alf lednev says:

    I am more interested in the need for this statement by Robin in the first place. Since when has LL showed any interest in what people think over the last few months?

    We had the “transparancy” article yesterday telling us all how “wonderful it is to work for LL” and out of the blue now we have “we won’t be raising prices”. Two articles oozing care, yeah right.

    Has the EU VAT fiasco struck that deeply? The SL economy was badly damaged by the inept handling of the gambling ban and the same ineptness was displayed in handling the EU VAT situation. And we must’nt Age verification and Privacy Laws storm. Again an ongoing exercise ineptness, with more still to come on that storm front. (Off topic , hopefully an EUer will now question LL’s standards of privacy protection as it acts as an agent for EU Taxes. Surely it must guarantee to meet the requirements of the Privacy laws set down by the EU? Something for another days discussion)

    There are alternatives to SL fast coming online, and all of the sudden, LL blogs appear talking of transparency and sharing information. Sorry guys, this little effort isnt going to let LL keep its market lead. Nor will nerd magnets like “Voice” & “Windlight” keep the masses paying and staying when so many of the basics remain unstable or broken. The nerds will stay and play with the new wonder toys, so LL will undoubtably be forced into major price rises as its ordinary paying members leave for fairer virtual shores. Kinda poetic really. Fix the basics is screamed over and over by so many and consistently ignored by LL. (cue wonder speil of Windlight by an LL Alt in 5,4,3,2.1..?? oops! cue petulant spiel by Linden Alt ” leave then why don’t ya” in 3,2, 1……….Damm , it must be broken to, oh well…..)

    Post 21 is spot on, fix the basics, fix communications before new major changes. Umm! 2 weeks for a help desk ticket still in the open stage? Fix that to! Of course all the non paying SL members (the vast majority and the smart ones I sometimes think) are excluded from helpdesk anyway so those monthly stats appearing from LL on problems, merely gives truth in the old adage “lies, damned lies and statistics.”

    And as Robin previously said, LL was absorbing the EU VAT taxes, so obviously as the EU’ers are paying that themselves now, there is no need to raise prices for some time. So, again, why the sudden post?

    LL worst nightmare will be another SL competitor that actually will provide real customer service to its paying members, listen, act and get the basics right first. The question then becomes what must LL do to retain its paying members, considering its long track record of ignoring the concerns of the bulk of its paying members? LL is very good at pandering to a small elitest technocratic wonder toy obessed lobby group, It FAILS completely in building any sort of ongoing trust relationship with the bulk of its members (non IT people). Its arrogance will come back and bite soon I suspect. It will soon run into the harsh reality of the commercial world. To maintain profits, as numbers of paying members walk, then prices will rise. As prices rise, more members will walk, so prices will rise again to meet profit targets.

  37. tee says:

    #21

    Rene, Yes !! you speak from my heart:

    “i have had to suck up the additional VAT charges ……enough already!!. Given the impact of VAT on new Europeans even considering buying SIM’s or mainland plots, the impact of gambling ban, the future impact of Age verification……there is only one direction Linden Labs should be going in regarding Tiers inorder to stimulate the economy…and that’s to reduce all tier charges right across the board!.”

  38. Martin Willis says:

    Na toll! Fuer uns Europaer wurden die Preise ja mal eben um fast 20% angehoben. Schoen, dass es keine weitere Veraenderung in den naechsten drei Monaten geben soll!

  39. Pingback: Lindens Say No Price Increases Just Yet « Smart Lindens

  40. John Doe says:

    I hope you won’t raise Island fee’s. Increasing the monthly Tier fees for Private Island owners, We (the land barons) would have to redo all of our tiers and ofcourse people will understand it, But making to maybe $395 a month, Would be insane. $295 is good as it is, make it’s higher, I personally think people will leave sl. as the costs for having a great virtual experience would be blown away by increasing costs for them. Lets state: It ain’t a real world, Ofcourse LL can increase whenever they want to, i hope they re-re-re-rethink their actions before they actually do something!. I will stay in SL no problem, But if tiers are being raised I see the future for me and alot of other residents not that Shiny And Brighty.

    Thanks

  41. 60 Days notice, like say VAT, couldn’t even manage 24 hours notice in some instances. Gambling didn’t even qualify for 1 hours notice. I had people on one of my sims had just spent 500US$ on slotm/c and so on the night before to expand their club, they didn’t see a penny back.either from the seller or Linden Labs. And if Linden currency is only play money and has no value as the totally misleading TOS says why am I now paying over 400US$ more per month in Value Added Tax for my sims?
    Like to answer the last Robin, as I couldn’t get to the town hall along with many other Europeans as you only seemed to have 1 sim in operation and you didn’t stream anything anywhere that I could find. Is that so you could say only 100 attended, so we must have accepted it? Also if you insist on removing large amounts of VAT from my account tell me you VAT registration number as you are required to do every time you do it so I can see you are not pocketing my money.

  42. Riley Pessoa says:

    amen to Pol McLaglen

  43. John Doe says:

    2nd point. If anything should be raised it should be mainland. Estate owners. take over a problem from Lindenlabs, We controll an area (region), we solve those problems, we maintain that land. Also if estate would rise again. Many people will be going to rent land or buy at mainland. This would be just as worse as the Credit Crisis in the US right now. Company’s will go bankrupt. And in the end no one gets better with that. So if they can change the Tier fee prices every year, I wonder what 1 region estate would cost in 5 years from now. 900 USD?

  44. btw EU is paying with the conversion only 247.998 US Dollar. This includes their beloved VAT fees. Before their VAT fees they were only paying 138.17 US dollar (with today’s currancy http://secondlife.reuters.com/). Granted there are some fees that the bank charges but still come on… it’s still cheaper then what the US pays.

    It’s like if i went to mexico and bought a VW down there. Alot cheaper… but then again now days even the Mexican Paso is worth almost as much as the dollar ( 0.092352 USD to 1 paso).

    You can talk all you want about cost of living and how EU pays nearly 2 euro per liter of gas… your still buying an american product.

    Dont get me wrong, im not for the tier increase. I like having the ability to provide a mall were merchants only pay 2L per prim and not hiked up rates you find on an island so that merchants can actually sell their items and make a profit. Increasing the tier would kill my mall as it is it’s hard enough to come through the 195 monthly tier rate i have. I own a 33,000sqm land for my mall.

  45. 44 going somewhere

    “why am I now paying over 400US$ more per month in Value Added Tax for my sims?”

    Because you live in the EU. As mentioned before, it’s something YOU need to take up with your VAT agency… especially if LL isnt giving you your VAT numbers like they are suppose to be doing. I’ve lived in EU before, I understand how the VAT works to a certain degree. Because i was military i was VAT waived… however i still had to bring my VAT forms i purchased on base to a store… which included a VAT number…. which i got a copy of!

  46. Keifer Balczo says:

    well in this post i seen that there are discussing in prices in premium basic accounts, but for that i dont think is right to do because i can barely afford the payment plan i go with all my other rl expenses and i dont think anybody would want their premium prices be raised, anyway thats all i really have to comment on ciao

  47. Wyald Woolley says:

    @36 I whole-heartedly agree with you. The lack of a trust relationship with LL is all due to their poor attitude toward the SL community. Without trust you cannot build customer loyalty…with no loyalty, the stampede to a new virtual world will be staggering.

    I love what I have here in SL. I love the friends I have here too. If I, or some of my friends, leave for a friendlier managed virtual world, I suspect we all would leave to maintain our connections. Then the friends of the friends would do so and it would fan out from there.

    Perhaps LL is finally aware of the huge c*ck-up they have done and are making some gestures to improve things. I hope it’s not too late, but I am suspicious that the underlying corporate culture of LL will prevail in the end and the arrogance and disconnect of management will continue no matter how hard they try to dress it up.

    It’s so sad to watch a company blindly fly a great virtual world into the ground.

  48. U M says:

    “34 Cliff Dieffenbach Says:

    October 9th, 2007 at 11:32 PM PDT
    @7

    Actually, Robin and Philip made two promises during the townhall meeting (check the blog history for Nov of ‘06)

    1. No tier increase “throughout 2007″ (Earliest effective date then would be 1 Jan ‘08 – Q1)”

    That is what I was refering too

  49. if you buy a year subscription, then 75us dollars is a great price when you compare all the other gaming places out there. Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt WOW charge 10.00 us dollars a month? If your down with POGO, they chage 25 a month… and if your like me, play spades in a myleague place, it’s 20us dollars a month.

    While 75 may not be worth it compared to a FREE account it is by far the cheapest price you will find for a gaming site. YES SL is still a game.

  50. Tony says:

    Robin not to be pedantic but business wise aren’t you guys now in Q1 and in the UK it’s Q3, so Q2 starts in January for the USA and it’s Q4 for the UK.

    Or are you basing Q4 on a calendar year? In which case the period up until the end of this year would be Q4.

    To be truly fair with notice you should give 60 days, this gives mainland owners time to tier down (or up if pricing is favourable) and doesn’t hit Estate owners where it hurts right away.

  51. 50 Tony

    that’s what im screamin…. It’s Q1 in the US as you stated. IF she really means Q4 FY08, then would shouldnt expect any increases until Dec 31st 2008.

  52. Ranma Tardis says:

    I have decided to drop back to basic when the time comes. 500 Lindens every 2 weeks and the 512 sqm are just not worth the price.
    What happens to Caledon determines if I stay or go in sl.

  53. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    @50

    It depends on if you’re basing your schedule off of Calendar Year (CY) or Fiscal Year (FY)

    Fiscal year, Q1 starts on 1 Oct. For CY, Q1 Starts on 1 Jan.

    It’s safe to assume that LL’s schedule is using CY as they’re referring to the latter part of the year as Q4 (also taking their promises into account otherwise they would have said “no tier increases for Q1).

  54. US Dollar Sinking says:

    Glad to hear no increases in the works…… uh, at least for the next two months, I guess?

    Something I’d love more info on you mentioned there…. You said international payment options on the Lindex?!?! Sounds great, if as I’m hoping, you mean currency options, other then the sole option to use the horribly depreciating US Dollar.

    I converted all my other assets away from US Dollars long ago. No option of this with LL, so I’m forced to see profits dwindle. Please, Please, PLEASE, add some other currency options on here. You know, at least some of the major ones… like Euros, Yens, Pounds, etc.

    This would help us all, American business owners too, having the option of safer currencies! Most other websites with monetary accounts have currency options available in some fashion. Seems odd LL doesn’t include this… isn’t SL a global, international world, not an All-American one?

    Anyway, just something to consider, I hope. I’ve posted it on JIRA, as have others, easy to miss when it’s only a concern to us big business owners in SL, other things are more pressing, I’m sure. Other than that, keep at it, Lindens, great job all and all 🙂

  55. Jimmy says:

    I did plan on bringing some of my R/L business customers here, many are not VAT registered but still need full invoicing to escape the taxes, whats the invoice situation Lindens? We need know the details!

    Also I havn’t even been able to log on to my account to show them even, is it normal for 3day+ problem resolution? I was due to introduce quite a few businesses to SL on Friday, I’m sure customer support will decide if I ever do.

  56. Tegg B says:

    Never heard of Q4, is that a new version of SL?

  57. Jimmy,

    you couldnt just create a FREE ACCOUNT? ;P

  58. U M says:

    Oh yes, we have LAG, ALTS to the heavens, at times a game that breaks down and takes days to get corrected, a support system at times leads me to believe their operators are some where in india, etc etc etcd. Oh 75.00 a year for al this and MORE……….And don`t for get griefters……… thats a bonus

  59. K says:

    Fees must go down or LL need to up the services it provides for the price before even considering rasing them.

    Like all fresh starters with big plans I was happy to take it on the nose but as time passes I see the problems but mostly complete lack of service from LL annoys me the most.

    VAT, AGE, Gambling no notifications etc you cant even get a list of approved games but they will let you buy them then refuse to let you use them.

    I am starting to realise how much money I am actually wasting. It never use to feel like that.

    Competition would be bad for LL as it will split the virtual world market but it maybe the only thing that finally wakes them up and gets a better world for us

    I get the feeling it has nothing to do with individuals anymore. They are after business the reason the changes are so hard to stomach is because they are aimed at removing those who are not. SL is changing.

  60. CM says:

    Basically moore’s law is what allows more land per dollar in the long run. LL does have a problem if they raise prices too often and too fast. Especially if they dont allow more land and prims or something. If they don’t fix basic issues then they are in danger of competition gaining on them.

    And remember, blogs are NOT substitutes for conversations!

  61. johnny says:

    WTF IS GOING ON WITH THIS VAT CRAP ANYWAY IN THE UK IF YOU EARCH 100 POUNDS YOU GET TAXED ON 100 POUNDS NOT 1000 AND THE TAX YOUR TAKIN THE PISS OUT OF US THE ISLAND FEE IS 295$ SO THE TAX COMES OUT OF THAT UNLESS YOU ARE NOW SAYING INFACT ITS MORE THAN 295$ FALSE ADVERTISEING A MATTER FOR THE COURTS MAYBE

  62. topmate says:

    No comment then on the (well substantiated) rumour that tier increases are planned from Jan 1 and that just as last year the large land barons have been informed well in advance? To clarify, I was informed of this by a land baron who has over $100K US invested in sims. Perhaps I will be flamed for this, perhaps not, but in the present atmosphere of “transparency” and communication another voice pointing out that the Emperor is naked has its place.

    Further (and unfortunately off topic, for which I apologise to fellow residents) on the subject of “transparency” and communication, if Linden Lab truly would “love to hear” from their CUSTOMERS about businesses which handle transparency, communication and customer service better than they currently seem able to, perhaps they should consider removing the comment cap on the relevant so that more than the current tiny fraction of their *cough* 10 million residents can contribute?

  63. Neb says:

    @20 Lindens have published their VAT number, it is EU826011179 (see http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/04/vat-are-you-talking-about/ )

    I accept that Lindens do have to charge VAT in EU countries, but, Linden Labs cannot just cherry pick wich EU regulations they intend to comply with, and this is opening a can of worms. The TOS is effectively a contract, and as such, cannot be amended at will under EU law. Also, I’m pretty certain that a refund has to be offered if the service is unavailable for any period. Finally, goods or services must be supplied “Fit for purpose” which in the case of SL, is not always true.

    LL have already broken many EU laws, and will probably be forced to refund VAT charges taken so far.

    I am also at a loss to understand the reasoning behind the sudden imposition of VAT. The reason quoted was because of the growth in Europe, making the implicit inclusion of VAT no longer tenable. The growth must mean more income from Europe, so the percentage VAT that Linden Labs say they were covering out of the goodness of their hearts remains the same, regardless of the growth. If it was affordable previously, why not now?

    The effect is that SL business run by people based in the EU are no longer competitive, having to add around 20% to all prices charged within game.

    Lindens also state that the Lindex is free from VAT because it is resident to resident transaction. However, if Lindens release more L$ onto Lindex, which they do periodically, these legally will incur VAT (unless of course L$ is a currency, and has an intrinsic value ;-))

    Fortunately, the timing of the VAT announcement came before my payments to LL were due, so I will take my accounts back to basic, and buy land in a private sim – after checking that it is not owned by an EU based person or business. I imagine a lot of other people will do likewise.

    So, raise you charges now or in the future. it no longer matters to me 🙂

  64. Rene Erlanger says:

    51 going somewhere

    Firstly i never mentioned exchange rates in my initial post anyway….so not sure why you brought it up anyway.

    Exchanges rates are “Variable”….meaning what goes up can go down as we all know!

    Tiers are fixed charges (unless changed by LL)

    What i trying to point out is that SL is a global game with people logging in from numerous countries. However could someone from say Poland, Romania, Thailand, Turkey, South Amercia or various other countries whose average earnings are considerably lower than the “good ol’ U.S.of A” really afford raising $1675 for a SIM purchase…and then paying anything from $195 to $354 (incl.VAT) for monthly tiers?

    The answer is No. You’ll find the majority of SIM’s are owned amongst the players from the 4 regions i mentioned……and now that 1 of those regions is handicapped with Sales taxes, that leaves 3 regions.

    Linden has dumped around a 1000 new sims since April into the game….whose going to be buying these excess plots?

    When i map the continents or PI’s, i see huge amounts of yellow blocks nowadays. You think that situation will improve if LL raises tiers……..yes or no?

  65. U M says:

    “The answer is No. You’ll find the majority of SIM’s are owned amongst the players from the 4 regions i mentioned……and now that 1 of those regions is handicapped with Sales taxes, that leaves 3 regions.”

    Well they are kind of selling to well larger companies. But then again some have seeing how bad things are and pulling out themselves. whenthe new price system pops in as many know it will soon, you see many many more then what you commented about.

  66. johnny says:

    WELL WHEN I BOUGHT MY SIMS IT SAID MONTHLY CHARGE IS 295$ NOT 295$ AND TAX THIS IS OBTAINTING MONEY WITH DECEPTION I WOULD NEVER HAVE INVESTED IN A GAME WHEN I HAVE TO PAY MUCH MORE THAN OTHER SIM OWNERS THE TAX IS YOUR RESPONSABILITY IT SHOULD COME FROM THE 295$ YOU SO QUICKLY SNATCH FROM ME EVERY MONTH THIS HAS GOTT TO BE ILLEAGLE IM GONNA LOOK IT UP

  67. Milo Bellow says:

    I “Love” The Way Linden Lab Has Managed To Gather All The People Of The World Together….

    And Then Has Systematically Torn Them Apart Again…

    Thats Just SO American…..

    😛

  68. johnny says:

    WELL SAID BRO

  69. Es says:

    Day I get the same amount of euros than dolars when I change lindens in real currency I will agree with you going somewhere rigth now I’m getting pretty less euros than you dolars for same linden amount, so I need to do an extra 20% in world to make even.
    Yes I’m handicapped

  70. Very Keynes says:

    Well, I currently own Mainland and rent private too. I have never in 2 years had a response from LL when I have problems on the mainland, the private land however I get a response in 2 MIN, usually with the support person TP’ing to me, and a fix in 10 min or less. Sure I pay slightly more, but I have no lag, more prims and friendly efficient service.

    I am selling enough of my own product now to no longer have to depend on the stipend (I wont get rich but its pocket money) and with IDV set to replace “payment info” as the preferred measure of trust, I see little reason to maintain premium account status. So if mainland tier goes up I will sell up, reduce to basic and probably extend my rented space.

    And for those who think exchange rates benefit the Euro holders, it cuts both ways. I pay 7 to 1 on the US$ and have to declare my offshore holdings for tax, but still only earn on a 1 to 1 basis.

  71. Rene Erlanger says:

    i think by lowering Tiers right across the board, LL might actually recieve more income in the long run. Making it affordable for more players to buy land that might lead to
    this equation:

    10000 x Y1 > 5000 x Y2

    where Y2=Current Tier rates and Y1= reduced Tier rates

  72. Groupie Messager says:

    Could you please please, finally introduce a tick box, people can use to surpress Group IM…When promoting my parties, that´s one channel i use. If I don´t, the number of guests is max 50 per cent, of what it is, if i use group IM. However checking up next day i always lost 5 or more members, cose they felt spammed. So right now, i always have to bite a bullet either way.

    Come on guys, this is being requested since forever. That cannot be so bloody difficult. While you´re at it, remove the 25 group limit too. It makes no sense.

    And thanx for giving us a heads up, that there will be price increases in Q1 2008. Cose that´s my conclusion from reading the above.

    Seeya

  73. “The effect is that SL business run by people based in the EU are no longer competitive, having to add around 20% to all prices charged within game.”

    no worries.. US residents will raise our prices charged within game to 20% to match yours 🙂 :PP

  74. 67 Milo Bellow Says:

    I’m american…. and i think this is funny too 😛

    October 10th, 2007 at 1:42 AM PDT
    I “Love” The Way Linden Lab Has Managed To Gather All The People Of The World Together….

    And Then Has Systematically Torn Them Apart Again…

    Thats Just SO American…..

  75. ISayNO says:

    *Lives the nice and quiet life of the basic resident and smiles brightly when sees how LL screw their residents more and more and more and more…* *yawns*

  76. Wes says:

    Rofl. Ladies and Gentlemen, how many days are left in 2007? A 60 day notice for tier increase changes. If LL decides to increase tiers in 2008 (read January ;), we get a notice in November? That’s correct no increasement in 2007. People are happy here with the news, but frankly, is it really news or just another marketing trick to shut people up…Just read the blog carefully. No “immediate” plans to increase fees. We all know that LL love to change plans with a 60 second notice 😉 Right?

  77. it’s a PC game on robins part no doubt about it… say all the nice things in the right way using the right words and we will vote robin linden for president soon.

  78. Dekka Raymaker says:

    @ 33 Broccoli Curry Says:
    Premium, as it stands, really isn’t that good a deal.
    Be bold, give people a reason to go premium – like limiting free accounts to 500 inventory items.

    I assume this would be additional too the Linden Library, otherwise there are going to be a lot of strange looking avs walking around. This would be bad for Linden Lab marketing, it would be an even less attractive place.

    Also wouldn’t this effect premium residents direct, especially those with businesses, for instance I picked up a freebie box a couple of days ago with 10,000 items in it, 500 items can be filled up with 500 crappy freebie items within a hour for all residents quite easily. That being the first thing new residents do, after a day they would be bored and not bother logging in again.

  79. ISayNO says:

    @78 & 33:

    Calm down guys, i payed for my 500+ items and i have a basic acct (i had 2 premium before), so that limit you are proposing are simply a stupidity. You don’t have an alt? LMAO, surely you’re the only one.

  80. shifzr says:

    i agree with those who have said tiers are high enough for the prims we get to use on the land.

    i would highly appreciate a rise in the allowed prims before any further price increases (had my 20% increase when LL decided charge VAT on us Euros)

  81. Re Funds says:

    Just talking about prices & price increases…looking at my classifieds now, almost crying how much it is meanwhile….Which reminds me of last weeks total service outage (just cose the grid isn´t off, doesn´t mean sl is on)…Finally pay us some refunds, if not on the tiers, then at least on the classifieds.

    If you don´t start moving towards us residents, then I am sure sooner or later the courts around the globe will force you to. Especially the ones in Europe, where you have crossed some very sensitive lines lately. Looking forward to it 🙂

    Regards

  82. Jamie David says:

    WOW thank you Robin, a few comments and there is a reply.

    The grandfathering is ment to happen in (Q1 08) according to the Linden blog posting of way back not Q4 07.

    Now how about that posting on Verification and how Aristotle has integrity?

    Can one still verify with made up data or no data at all?

    How do they verify some countries ID when they do not have the raw data to verify against?

    According to their own website the only actuall data they have is the Russian Drivers Licence database (Required). Everything else is (Suggested) implying that they do not have the records. I know they don’t have the Thai records, pretty sure thay don’t have the Cuban or Iranian, yet they can verify those countries users?

    Any idea on what the charge will be for this “service”? Aristotle are saying their percentage 50 cents per user.

    I am glad that you are taking the time to review their system and policies. Peoples identities are in a fragile state. Onle little accident and hundreds of thousands or possibily millions of peoples private information is out there. News is full of stories of mistaken trashing, taking home, loss or as in the case of LindenLabs a year or so back possible hacking. Is there an external trustworthy auditor?

    Aristotle sell data. That is their bread and butter. I do not see how they can assure that the two systems never see each other. I do not see any assurances that they will not use the process of verification to validate or augment their own data for sale.
    [Robin Linden:F:21:1600 Pennsylvania Avenue:NW Washington:DC:USA:20500:Democrat:NRA:SecondLifeUser:UnitedMiles:White:Hindu:Germany]

    Aristotle seem to be on a masive move to get as many online with their system before Nov 08 and the elections. Big money in them there data hills. Are we being pressured into this for anothers financial gain?

  83. U M says:

    @66 Many are HOPPING mad at ll for waht they done. But then agin we have a Linden going around saying all is well all is grand……..yea right….

  84. Ziggy March says:

    Ill repeat and shall keep repeating it !!! Drop tier prices untill it really becomes worth the money, for now its really not the case… AND PLEASE STOP THE CAMPING !!! Really do something about that crap !!! have a nice day

  85. Ziggy March says:

    ill repeat and shall keep on repeating it !!! Drop tier prices untill it really becomes worth the money, for now its really not the case… AND PLEASE STOP THE CAMPING !!! Really do something about that crap !!! have a nice day

  86. SoulMate Girl says:

    I’m taking this post as Tiers ARE increasing, just not at the moment. A lot of my friends are either staying on basic accounts or not renewing their premium accounts when the time comes round. This says to me something, LL is expecting this and applying damage control.

    I bought land with an EU landowner and my tier raise through them forced me to sell my land at a 20kL$ loss. I have found a place to be again but if my tier goes up beyond my means for a second time, well I’m going to lose my interest in trying to have my own place and build it.

    The VAt issue, yes I’m an EU resident and yes it affected me. Suck it up from some of our US friends is hardly fair. We pay VAT through US sites which is applied from word go, usually the cos isn’t any different from the US because US taxes are applied anyway too. US residents who have business will be seeing a sharp decrease in sales if EU residents have to choose between paying more and paying less and disposing that difference in their stores.

    If basic accounts went over to a crazy idea of 500 invent items, I would have to go. I keep mine to 5000 and under anyway, but I couldn’t drop that amount not without losing money in the form of bought inventory.

    This global place which functions best when it brings people from all over the world together is splitting. I don’t want that to happen but price increases, again will contribute to Second Life becoming too expensive for the majority.

    If, and only IF the serious problems, caused I am sure by the increase of hacker attacks on the client and the bad woolly coding were to be fixed. If whenever I choose to log on I can without crashing and my friends crashing, and lag was reduced then increases would be water off this ducks back. But the service is not there to warrant these increases. Improve the site before you lose too many people to other VWs. Please 🙂

  87. SharpKnife Beaumont says:

    Dear linden lab, at the moment i pay 500 dollars tier a month, if your guys are so willing to kill SL pls raise the tier asap. Then we are done with it finally! And i wish you happy playing with soon empty servers. There is a limit and your guys are on the border! Better make a statement no tier changes until at least 2009! That will hold back folks to get selling and leave.

  88. pointside Sunbelter says:

    Well if subscription account rates go up before you fix the sim crossing bug, I’ll be either be reverting back to the free account or dropping my account altogether. As a Sailor, pilot, horseman, and racer, I spend my day being rubber-banded into space or having my attachments end up at the crotch. But since the new Havoc is not supposed to fix that either, I guess I am being driven away from this game. And I refuse to pay more money for that kind of aggravation.

  89. SoulMate Girl says:

    Weirdly my brain has just kicked in! It seems to me leaking assets for LL need to be plugged. The obvious way I guess is tier rises, but eventually like oh so many are saying…see post number 87 for the closest – that will cause more problems not solve the one in the spotlight.

    Now server space costs money, there are huge blocks of yellow swarming the land, get rid of those spaces sucking up server space that isn’t being used because they aren’t being sold. Surely that is the sensible thing to do?

    Open up land when people actually want it, rather than opening huge swathes of server space that just can’t handle the heat.

  90. Richard Tani says:

    Now that EU law applies to America, will Americans still celebrate Independence Day? 🙂

  91. tracey says:

    how about dropping prices, it is getting to expensive even as a business to stay in secondlife, especially since the VAT is affecting many casual users and some regulars who cannot claim it back…

    SL seems to be going quieter, there is so much land for sale, people seem to be losing interest, surely with the amount of servers and the size of your company you can bring prices down by at least 20%…

    I can assure you, unless you do start to reduce tier fees people will leave for the new virtual worlds opening up in competition…

  92. Pingback: The Second Life Grid Grind » Blog Archive » Natives are restless.

  93. SL Player™ says:

    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!
    MAKE SECOND LIFE PAY TO PLAY!

  94. mimi says:

    @ 49 @36 I whole-heartedly agree with you. The lack of a trust relationship with LL is all due to their poor attitude toward the SL community. Without trust you cannot build customer loyalty…with no loyalty, the stampede to a new virtual world will be staggering.

    yes I agree too.. even with this post it just makes me wonder.. when they state prices wont be raised in Q4.. they probably will after that.. and probably raise hugely and without proper prior notice.

    I don’t trust SL at all anymore after the VAT fiasco.. just one Linden replying is nice, a good step, but wont take away the distruct residents have at the moment so easily… it will take a lot more than that. we’ve seen so many words and empty promises already..

    The prices (included VAT) are ridiculous..especially seeing the bugs and trouble at the moment.. any more price raise and ANY european will have to give up owning a sim.

  95. Jim Perhaps says:

    Instead of raising the cost to those that are already paying why don’t you put a time limit on the free accounts? Just think if your 10 million accounts paid something to use the service. You could hire some more help!!! Now there is a novel idea. Pay to play.

    Why offer so much to so many who pay nothing while offering so little in the way of decent support and bug fixes to those that pay?

    Also if you are going to raise mainland prices are you going to upgrade the servers? When I look at companies that offer dedicated servers I see their prices going down not up.

    So much needs to be fixed, especially support, before we get pretty skies, higher cost to play and more free accounts.

  96. Lukas Althouse says:

    I am convinced Lindens wants Private Island Owners out. I think the reason for this is that while we have proved useful to date in promoting Second Life for them, 90% of our tiers we pay in Lindens.

    Now its suppose to be a genuine exchange, but if it is why did the Linden strengthen after they banned gambling and strengthen again when they annouced VAT?

    I’m sure LL has L$ coming out of the ears, but they can’t cash them in to pay their RL costs without causing hyper inflation. They need dollars, so out with the Private Island Owners and more premium accounts.

  97. ISayNO says:

    As time passes, i’m happier with my downgrading decision. That time, i did the right thing. Good luck to the payers.

  98. HolyHell Cassell says:

    Hardly a surprise that the wording “We wont raise prices in Q4” comes out. We’re nearing the midway point of Q4, and out of the blue, BAM. That post hits. I am soooo happy I sold off all my islands before you guys began shooting yourself in the foot on a daily basis. My greatest form of entertainment used to be SL. Now it’s become watching LL slowly tear apart their product.

    Your World, Your Imagination, Our Screwups, Our double-talk, our fake transparency, our bugs, our bans on what you want to do, our selling your personal ID info to Aristotle, our features you dont want.

    Load another bullet LL. It wont take long for you to kill it off completely.

  99. quantum daikon says:

    I downgraded my land tier last night (only from$25 to $15) as a direct result of the VAT issue.

    I allow myself a few hundred $ a year to enjoy SL (and I do enjoy it) but there is a fine line to the amount that I would pay to enjoy and that which I would think, ‘well I can enjoy myself somewhere else for that much money!’ I would imaging that this applies to many of the longer term residents.

    I know LL is a business that must make money but be carefull LL.

    Quant

  100. Oerbewustzijn Archer says:

    I envision that prices in future will go down LL envision 50 miljon residents in near future

  101. Mel says:

    #82 – Robin lives at the White House? Wow.

  102. Spank lovell says:

    All that says to me is that “we wont do it this year but watch out next year”. If tier fees are increased in Q1 next year then I will be forced to let go of my island 😦 We have made our home there and we love it so much, only to lose it to corporate greed and ineptitude.

    LL will lose me as a paying customer and my partner and I will lose something we both treasure.

    Way to go LL.

  103. Spank lovell says:

    I forgot to add I’ve already had to take the VAT hit. A price rise will just be too much to add.

  104. sensual fold says:

    It amazes me how “Robin” thinks this is something to crow about……Not raising tiers now but guaranteed later….What a trooper..LET ME REMIND YOU, THIS IS A FREAKING INTERNET GAME! The VAT is choking so many people already but he gallantly tells us that they wont raise tiers now but most likely will the first of the year, what a crock……..LL your company is the peoples company, we pay your freaking bills, keep u in BMW’s, European vacations…which i hope they charge u 10x’s more VAT then they do the residence! Stop lining your pockets and allow your “bill payers” to just have fun, stop sucking the life out of us!

  105. Chrysala Desideri says:

    *sigh*
    To think that some residents are still programmed with the “problems? cut off” response.

    I entered Jan 2007~~ had it been pay to play within 90 days, or inventory so limited as to be choked with the first box i’d have left by March. As it is almost a year into my SL i’ve scripted my first semi-complex object, built a few things i really like and met a lot of fantastic people from all over… and those are the things keeping me here. NOT shinies, NOT Sony island or any other such bunk.

    But for suggestions like Broccoli’s (and i know it wasn’t in bad faith, just not thought through) most of that would not have hapened at all.

    Now i’m so depressed i’m downloading HiPiHi to see if i can re-make myself there. My umpteenth daydream of going premium and making “my sim” has broken, not so much from the PC/DC post itself, but things i’m finding out in the comments…

  106. brazil comet says:

    After what happened with VAT implementation with no warning, I could expect anything from Lindens.
    WhenLindens says that for Q4 i will not change the prices is definetely for me that they will do so in the Q1 of 2008.

    I feel good anyway that i decided to cash out , stay with a free account (if possible) and get rid of all land holdings . An increase in mainland tier fees will be the final hit maybe , but you never know with Lindens.

    I have to say a big thank you to lindens though, because they help people get out of SL because it is so addictive that very few can escape alone. They need help. And thanks god, Lindens are always there to support us. That’s the best support services that Lindens could provide us. Help us find the exit.

  107. sensual fold says:

    lol very good Brazil………they are their own worse enemies….

  108. Jen Shikami says:

    Wow, Brazil cashed out? O_O And yeah, I have to suspect that “not this quarter” means “next quarter”…

    As for land pricing, I have this pie-in-the-sky wish that tier fees weren’t so high. I imagine we’d see even more creative builds out there like The Greenies and other cool exploratory zones if they didn’t have to be so dependent on frantic fundraising or crammed with rentals to pay tier.

  109. Berry Steinhoff says:

    I should think so too! A price hike would be outrageous and insulting at this time.

  110. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    @82 Jamie David raises a good point – one that has been here time and time again. WHAT WILL ARISTOTLE/INTEGRITY DO WITH OUR PERSONAL DATA???
    Other questions (too many of them to be asked in just one blogpost!) need answers urgently. The proposed tier rise (and thankyou for asking THAT one as well Jamie) is already forcing many rethinking their relationship with LL, VAT has seen many ppl cashing out, the gambling ban also. When is this all going to end Robin?
    One question I personally would like answered regarding the age-verification issue: in the ‘ID VERIFICATION’ blogpost on 29AUG07 it was mentioned that verified people will be able to show others in SL that they do business with that they can be trusted.
    Exactly how will this work? Are we going to have a tab on our Profile showing whether or not we are verified? If we are not verified does that mean we are not to be trusted?
    Sounds to me like a recipe for sowing the seeds of doubt and suspicion among people in SL.
    LOL, LindenLabs can’t even VERIFY that Aristotle/Integrity can be trusted with our personal ID data!

  111. Carmilla says:

    I have been in SL for only 2 yrs. I came here for the great things I heard that could be accomplished here. It was ..and I mean WAS fun then! I don’t know how people can pay ALL that RW money for such a crappy game as this has become!

    I don’t own land and wont ever. How do people pay hundreds a dollars a month for a game that doesn’t work???? Linden doesn’t care about its customers or it would FIX THE DAMN BUGS that they KEEP creating by making NEW BUGS! I cant fathom why we continue to pay and accept a TOS when it STATES “We don’t have to have a decent game for you to play. It can be crappy and not working ANYTIME we want and STILL charge you..mwhahahahahah”

    If they increase prices ANYWHERE I will go to down a free acct..just to hang with my friends. And THATS IT! No more money going into Linden exchange. I’d rather whore myself first before I pay anymore RW money!

  112. Carmilla says:

    Oh a second thought…

    They got rid of the Gambling…so they sat back and thought..how can we replace ALL that money we (The lindens) were making from that?

    Oh guess what? *snaps fingers* They came up with the VAT idea! Now they got all of THEIR money back from the Gambling ban.

    *shakes head and glad she doesn’t live in the UK*

  113. sensual fold says:

    Just a heads up to all out there who are thinking of selling their plots of land……Do not tell the island owner u are selling, we did that, STONEY PIPPEN greedily doubled the tier payment on it so we were unable to sell it. He needs to change his name to Stoney Linden, he is of the same clothe……….So if u all see this name or Winds Beach..stay clear, he’s a leech!

  114. sensual fold says:

    And we were selling our land due to the wonderful add on called VAT….

  115. ari blackthorne says:

    As much notice as possible… I sure hope it’s more than a week. Yes, I’m beieng sarcastic. But really, a couple months should be doable.

    Begging here. Arm only twists so far LOL

  116. janie matahari says:

    I agree with all of you, land is too expensive. It is very difficult to build a business here on your own, you need lots of people to help, and even if you pay them decent salaries, expect mediocre participation. I owned an island and tried to build a non-profit self sustaining society. I was still paying grandfathered tier and the best income i got was from my casino. Now there are no casinos. I cashed out last july and im not a premium member anymore. I felt like i helped build (and maintain) one of the most beautiful sims in SL (Lost Colony) but realistically, it is one of those high priced luxury items, costing more than a vacation to a real island. The lindens need to bring back a legitimate voting system or a pay merit traffic system like dwell. Dwell is how Lost Colony was born in the first place, unfortunately dwell was taken away suddenly leaving new sim owners high and dry. Linden labs is capitalizing on the “built by residents” and “your world your imagination” but they cannot ever reach true potential of our imagination, lol because I for one, cannot affort to create anything here, even though i know how (wasted assets). Pushing out the starving artists leaves the corporate same ol’ same. Your best asset are the experienced SL and MMPORG game players (Wow and Eve crossovers) and we are all getting of tired of laggy mall after mall. Its like tv with no tv shows, just commercials, and that wont last.

  117. Cat Gisel says:

    I see people talking of tier going down. Hmm big box stores lower prices and make a profit because volume goes up. It could work…but could Linden keep up with the pace? The downside for landowners with businesses is that they could suffer because of increased competition at increased locales. I won’t be shortsighted. If businesses leave and residents (read:consumers) stay, that could be good for business.

  118. Dytska Vieria says:

    There’s only about 2 1/2 months of 2007 left. What about Q1 08?

  119. Walker Moore says:

    Rumours about your intentions (regarding tier in particular) were causing people to tighten their belts in my opinion, so many thanks for this information. Hopefully you can keep this kind of transparency up. =)

  120. Spank lovell says:

    Take notice Robin. Almost everyone that has commented here has seen past the warm and fuzzy feeling from the comment :

    “we have no immediate plans to raise the ‘grandfathered’ island pricing. This doesn’t mean it won’t change at some point, but certainly not in Q4.”

    And we all suspect that prices WILL go up in Q1. That would be the DUMBEST move you guys have made yet and may well result in a glut of land being dumped on the market.

    I think the “suits” now have control in LL. They are bleeding money and trying to claw it back. Insted they will force people from the game or end up with very few land owners.

    Lower your prices guys, not raise them. hey why am I bothering? They wont listen.

  121. Ricky Yates says:

    Good clarification. The reason that it became necessary to me is an indication how fast the SL economy is turning to the worse.

    Agree with #87. We are fast approaching the level of cost exceeding value. Actually, rising cost (VAT) has driven myself over the edge and thus out of the land rental business. So I’m selling out and tiering down to the minimum.

    Now with the high amount of land for sale already now, raising tier on top of that would send the whole economy spinning out of control, I would expect.

  122. johnny says:

    WE ARE ALL DOOMED =( WELL SL IS =)

  123. Saadi Zadeh says:

    LL needs to learn to be consistent and stabilize. This is about the time they should consolidate what they have built and become less risky in changes and updates.

    The competition to LL is emerging rapidly from around the globe. They will off course learn from LL’s mistakes and have an edge in their planning. I want SL to go on and succeed as most of us do. We have our emotional as well as financial investments in it. Most of us are sentimental about SL and thats why, I believe, many of us are sticking despite constant discouragement from LL decision makers.

    This is about the time, and it will be a business ‘saavy’ approach, to stop bugging your customers, stop introducing changes every now and then, and consolidate what you have. LL needs to switch from ‘enterprise’ to ‘competitive’ state of mind. This is about the time.

    I shall off course congratulate LL on the ‘level of transparency’ they practise. Five Stars for that. This is an edge despite all the hassle you take from residents, this is your strong point.

  124. Joker Opus says:

    Is it really smart to have tier go up at all due to recent, and constant grid issues? If anything, you should be contemplating tier -drops-.

  125. Ryu Darragh says:

    #35 – Blinders, why do you assume everyone that owns a region does so for commercial reasons ? And do you think it’s fair that two shopping plazas right next door to each other in RL have different leasing prices ?

    I own my region solely to support friends who are cancer survivors, suffering from depression and a handful of other serious conditions. If it were about the money, I’d have dropped SL ages ago.

  126. DaQueenB Houston says:

    WHewwww! *wipes brow*
    now does the YIPPPEEEE dance

  127. U M says:

    “100 Oerbewustzijn Archer Says:

    October 10th, 2007 at 5:06 AM PDT
    I envision that prices in future will go down LL envision 50 miljon residents in near future”

    Hi archer 🙂

    Well I hope so but it might be too late then and the game might be in a state of flux. Lets hope I am wrong

    U sagi M usashi

  128. johnny says:

    i think the dude that owns sl has made his money now he dont care is this goes tits up

  129. Joker Opus says:

    @128
    Lets hope that isnt the case..

    — I personally wouldn’t mind paying a few more dollars a month for land IF they provided BETTER servers… But you shouldnt have to, land fees are quite high at current rate, and it feels sometimes like we are being run by mice-wheels..

    What ever happened to ‘More bang for your buck’

    -joker

  130. U M says:

    I pay more money to limit the account created and have better costumer service and better tech monkeys.

  131. Anon says:

    ‘grandfathered’ islands…what’s that then?

  132. Megaera Cioc says:

    I have two paid-for, premium accounts. But I’m wondering why. I don’t get any better service or support than friends with free accounts. Oh, sure, I can put in a problem ticket. But when I read the entire KB and only then do I ask for help, only to get an email back two weks later telling me to read the KB so that LL can keep their response time down to 12 hours, I begin to wonder. That was back in April, and I *still* have not received a response. Anyway, next billing cycle, I’m downgrading my accounts to basic. LL doesn’t need my money–they can just raise the VAT they’re sucking out of the Europeans.

  133. Da Buster says:

    SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!! COME TO MY ISLAND I HAVE FREE LIFE SIZED KLEENEX TISSUE BOXES FOR FREE. Complain Complain Complain. 90% of ppl on this program have sub standard equipment to be running this program and or can’t afford it it the first place. In that case stick to th efreebie ares and do us a favor and stop complaining. The lag issue??? Where are you hanging out with lag? Oh i know where in some dumpy sim with thousands of sub par scripts running creating the lag. Sims I am at have a few hundred to 700 scripts at a maximum and run flawlessly. Fisrt off the increase was not supposed to be officially done till february 2008 if at all. So this LL announcement is nothing but old news. Everyone is complaining about lag and the like. Remove all that scripted garbage, when u say you can’t see anything and u have all this lag, mostly is is from ppl like you traveling throughout the grid “bringing” the lag with you. scripted body parts and color changing shoes. you are the ones stressing this grid for the rest of us. COME TO MY ISLAND I HAVE FREE LIFE SIZED KLEENEX TISSUE BOXES FOR FREE.

  134. Joker Opus says:

    @133
    My computer can run Halo, Counterstrike, Bioshock all fine; all of which need much better equiptment than Second Life needs. This is clearly not a computer issue, becuase of such a mass group of people complaining about the lag.

  135. U M says:

    ” Fisrt off the increase was not supposed to be officially done till february 2008 if at all. ”

    Well If we all know how LL does business the 1st! of 2008 the rates will increas. Not in 4th Q 2007

    If you so rich give me a few 1000l then :/

  136. Chris says:

    Knew the trolls would come out about this time. Doesn’t affect you Da Buster, make fun of those it does. Get a grip and a conscience. You aren’t playing from every time zone or have done reliability studies on access from different areas, so please do a favour and pip down. I happen to know my box is state of the art, yet it experiences lag. I’ve run more diagnosis tools than you have teeth (I hear the **wisdom** teeth will reach you soon), yet it can still lag. You’ve added nothing to this blog except proof the fanboys are alive and well at this hour.

    RE Robin: As one of the people asking about this in yesterday’s installment, I for one thank you for clarifying. Now if we can get more advance notification on every other aspect that these 100+ comments have brought forward, you might not have been in this situation in the first place. Thanks.

  137. AW says:

    A reasonable tier would be 100 USD/month for a island .All the hardwarecosts for one island are paid with the initial cost .Ok, you want to make a profit , you have employees , the hardware needs maintenance , you consume electricity , but given the number of sims , there is no problem to pay all that with 100 USD / sim

  138. brazil comet says:

    There are some numbers in their statistics page and in their monthly data about existing land.
    10500 islands and also some 3500 mainland sims out there (more or less). If you make the assumption that half of the islands are on 195, the numbers give a monthly income for SL of 3.2 US$ +million right now. That’s 40 million per year excluding land auctioned which could add some 5-10 million per year, depending on the amount of the supply.
    So right now they are on a track which makes 50 million revenue per year at least (without counting linden exchange income).

    An increase of the gradfathered islands and mainland tier fees to 295 (hypothetical) could bring them another 10 million and take them to a 60 million annualy revenue. So simple.
    With just an increase in these 2 categorytier fees, they will increase their annual revenue by almost 20%.

    Let’s not forget , that they don’t care actually, if i , you or he and she will not own land. That’s not the issue. And it’s not of Lindens concern, what everyone of us does in here, fun or business etc. The fact is that if me or you own land , they will get the tier anyway. from somebody. And even most dump their land and not sell it, then again, they will find people who will buy this land even if it needs to be sold-auctioned to them for 0. So tier will remain there. They don’t really risk many things.

    I would put in high priority of Lindens to keep stable this tier income and increase it.And i think that they wouldn’t mind to be able to keep that cash flow stable each month , even by sacrificing some of the passengers of the boat, even by ruining and turning upside down the whole economy ecosystem in SL, even by bringing the cost of land down to 0 and keeping only the tier.

    I always keep in my mind, that there are some investors behind this company that they would like to make SL succeed and also make money. Why make money? To be able to invest more so to make it more succesfull, to make it a standard in 3d worlds setting the bases for the future or to be able to attract bigger investors or to be sold to another companby but to be able to do the last one it would be usefull if they can proove that they can make it.

    From a resident perspective?
    If someone fit into this world is another issue which each one of us examines on a daily basis and reevaluate on daily basis. They do their business , i do my game by accepting that the whole thing is like gambling. I really gave up the hope i had that they could at least guarantee some stability in the economy that was build in SL. There is no such thing.
    Sorry for the long post.

  139. Detox Watanabe says:

    so that means you consider increasing the prices for land?

    I hope SL gets good competition soon, I’d so be outta here (and most of others I know).

    Land is too expensive.

  140. Inigo Chamerberlin says:

    ‘reiterate’ Robin?

    Did I blink and miss you saying that the first time?

  141. Villanova Beaumont says:

    I believe SL is still in a growth phase which requires 1) to invest in the quality of the product/service and 2) to charge nothing or as little as possible to maximise user base.

    The current quality and size of SL, together with emerging competitors like http://www.hipihi.com), do not yet allow focus on profit.

    3D virtual worlds can count on high level of forced loyalty (social connections and investments made by their residents), but those assets can also be liquidated or even migrated with a limited cost.

    The VAT joke (if not legal consequences) and price increases could be letal at this stage.

    Just my personal opinion.

  142. sensual fold says:

    you and me both detox….we search daily for a replacement…LL cares nothing for the people any more only their pockets….If anyone finds a replacement please notify us 🙂

  143. Hayden Hedges says:

    I joined a few years back, done the premium thing, owned the land. I’ve watched all the changes, had VAT dumped on me without warning (not that it affected me, really) and I honestly doubt this is the death of SL.

    That being said, I think all this could well be the death of my AV. I used to enjoy this place so much before. So once my current contract is up I will have to think long and hard if it’s worth it.

    It would appear LL have lost site of how to manage a community and started seeing members as nothing more than numbers. Such a shame.

    As for post 133, some people just expect value for money. Don’t rag on others for being not quite as easiliy pleased as you. i’m glad your sim is running like a gem and that you so eagerly pay through the nose for it without sparing a glance at the long term implications of the majority being unhappy.

  144. Michi Lumin says:

    So this means they -ARE- going to be raising mainland prices in Q1 2008. That is INSANE. The griefing on the mainland, the lack of controls – and prices are going up???

    (That is pretty much what this says.)

  145. B.O.O. H.O.O says:

    bought more land then you can afford? my heart bleeds. you were not satified with a free account or a 512 parcel, YOU had to have a friggin’ island.

    i have about as much sympathy for you as for the people in the us that bought too much house with a low variable interest rate, now that rates are going up, they expect the federal gov. to save their sorry arses.

    can’t afford it with a rate increase, then you really couldn’t afford it to begin with.

    do what the rest of us are forced to do, LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS

  146. IntLibber Brautigan says:

    #8: Jeff, the facts are that with estate tools, estate owners are less of a cost burden on LL than mainland landowners, because estate owners can provide their own liason services to their residents, where mainland barons are at the mercy of griefers and rely on costly LL support.

    From a rational, real life business perspective, LL should be charging private island owners LESS than they do mainland land owners on monthly fees, due to the cost savings.

    Instead what LL did was maintain concierge service and disband Help Request, essentially abandoning the mainland residency into an ungoverned chaos (no, you can no longer call the mainland “anarchy”, because the distinction between anarchy and chaos is personal accountability). The refusal to provide Help Request saves LL money enough to dump mainland on the market at less than the cost that private island owners, and at lower monthly tier too. This forces less successful island owners out of business, the sim servers they paid for , which LL now has for zero capital cost, LL can repurpose for selling more cheap mainland, which drives more private island owners under, which supplies them more zero-capital cost servers, which lowers mainland costs further.

    Ergo, LL is capitalizing itself by deluding and defrauding the small and home businessperson out of their meager savings by making them believe they can make a living in a fair and free market, when the market is hopelessly slanted in LL’s favor and only those who are successful over and above the average, in the private islands, can compete. Those who are not immediately successful, or unwilling to subsidize unsuccessful islands, will lose their investments to LL’s drive to capitalize itself not off of angel investors or IPO stockholders like any self respecting start-up would, but off individuals, ordinary people everywhere who believe in a fair and free market but are getting conned.

    Those who work for LL who did not see this before cannot claim it is not obvious now. Does LL consider this fair business practice? Ethical business practice? For all those who claim the estate owners rip people off, we all have a fantastic role model in LL to show us how to do it.

    As George Washington once said, government is the great teacher. Here, in our world, LL is the state, and its example is teaching the rest of us.

  147. U M says:

    There was a time when the in world Live help was wonderful. But like all things in the helper groups. It became littered with bad and very tasteless people. Hence hurting the once useful syste, LOL there was even a woman that know almost nothing. But she became LH. The GOd Old days of LH had a record of helping and dealing with issues. But it became nothing but a “IF YOU KNOW” who got you in there.

  148. sensual fold says:

    @145…obviously u have not been reading or keeping up….We were living within our means until $30/mth extra was added to our tier due to the lovely add on of the VAT. Im sure its obvious to many who read your comment that the green eyed monster has ahold of u but please try to keep it to a dull roar when exposing it.

  149. Dirk Felix says:

    So you will raise new prices, but keep new land at a higher rate. Seems like BS and something Torley hought of. BTW, Torley is sending SPAM in order to recruit people for some idea thing. If you don’t have a roadmap to your future this isnt the way to go about finding one 😉 Tell Torley that he violated the CANN SPAM ACT. We all know that LL needs to be monitored to stay within the confines of the law. Consider this a piublic service 😉

  150. For me i belive the prices should be lower and the prim rate should be higher. As much as i seen happen and well the grid being unstable as it is well i dont belive anyone should pay more then what they are right now. I could see if the sim/regions was alot more advanced and you could have more then 40 to 100 people in a sim at the same time. I think the computer systems would need a major upgrade and alot of server changes before i think about paying anymore for this. But depends on the situation

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