[RESOLVED] Rolling Restart – Monday Oct 1st

[UPDATE 1 Oct, 07 – 5:04 pm]

Still a few regions to go…

[1 Oct, 07 – 4:03 pm]

The restart has reached all regions. The Grid Team is manually assisting a small number of regions that didn’t process the restart automatically.

[1 Oct, 07 – 2:59 pm]

We’re still wrapping this up; we’ll post an all-clear as soon as possible.

[1 Oct, 07 – 1:57 pm]

We’re almost finished. Thanks for your patience; we should be done very shortly.

[1 Oct, 07 – 12:52 pm]

The rolling restart is a little more aggressively scheduled this time than in times past. Logins for some residents may be slow until the restarts are finished. Also, the nifty trick of wave-jumping the restarts by TP’ing to the Northwest is unfortunately no longer supported – the restart order is no longer dependent upon map location.

In exchange for this inconvenience, the restart should be finished much sooner.

[1 Oct, 07 – noon]

The rolling restart launched about four minutes ago.


The rolling restart previously mentioned on the blog has been postponed to Monday, October 1st. Due to the series of issues over the last few days (1, 2, 3, 4), we want to wait until the service is in a stable state before we make any sweeping changes.

We apologize for the delay in getting bug fixes fixes out to the grid, but want to play things safe.

The restart will start at approximately 11am Pacific Time (18:00GMT). Each region will be given a 5 minute warning, then restart at some point within a few hours of that start time.

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Service Status. Bookmark the permalink.

122 Responses to [RESOLVED] Rolling Restart – Monday Oct 1st

  1. bigmoe says:

    ok, looking forward to it 🙂 Have a nice weekend lindens

  2. addax says:

    VAT blog ????

  3. Starsaphire Dagger says:

    Okaaaay. Miantenance on Wednesday. Things start breaking that afeternoon and continue breaking thru today. Another weekend of frustration while we wait for Monday. Viewer will be fixed by Tuesday. And then we have wonderful Wednesday. Just another wek in the life of an sl’er.
    Saaay. If it takes 5 days to fix it after maintenance/update…
    How about moving that back to Monday? Then it will be fixed by Friday and we can all have a great time playing during the weekend?

  4. Soo Novi says:

    Will the upload and asset servers also be fixed by then? Maybe before then? I cleared my cache two hours ago and lost over 1000 items. POOF, gone. Now I can’t upload anything at all. Has this been reported too? Because if not…then put that on your list too, please.


  5. Actually I wonder why LL doesn’t keep a rollback state of all server code, and should problems persist until the end of the week initiate the roll back to the stable server state (such as it is in SL’s case) so debugging can commence the next week?

  6. Tony says:

    VAT Blog!

    First line should be an apology for not communicating this properly.

  7. Enigma Cassavetes says:

    I notice the person who asked for a blog post on VAT charges has been wiped. Sad, very, very sad.

  8. Guru Ah says:

    Okay, so no announcement that you’ve sprung VAT on all European customers?!! This will could have as much impact on the SL economy as the surprise gambling shutdown – every European customer is going to have between 15% and 25% added to all their fees and tier – and you don’t think that even merits a blog entry. Unbelievable.

  9. Lance Corrimal says:

    … “we want to wait until the service is in a stable state before we make any sweeping changes.”

    You mean, SL will stay forever as it is right now?

  10. Fellatione Aabye says:

    11am Pacific Time (18:00GMT).

    Thanks Linden Labs apparently no one has the ….. to do a rolling restart in US Prime time …. so the european members have to take the load …… Thank you very much

    That series of issues had been avoided if first tested …. before pushing it into our throats …..

    Btw LOVE your humor …. so we SL Citizens can feel like SH …..

  11. Gabby Handrick says:

    For me the frustration has been less in the scheduled downtimes and more in the terrible performance in many of the sims I enjoy visiting. Ever since voice was added to the main grid I have constantly lagging, often to the point of being barely able to even move in some just moderately busy sims (I do not know enough to say whether voice was the culprit or not, it just seems that that’s around the same time the performance went south for me.) Please LindenLabs, you keep “fixing” stuff but don’t take care of the problems that are destroying the SecondLife experience that we all love so much. Please, tell us what you are doing to fix it and when we can expect the level of service that myself and many others actually do pay (real) money for.

  12. Zlad Voom says:

    VAT Blog!!!!!!!

  13. Gore Suntzu says:

    VAT Blog!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. for this part : thanx, good decission.

    who needs the fixes now can restart anyway.

    but: VAT blog ! what does that mean ? in EU vat is included anyway in any end consumer prices (needs to): so no price change ?

  15. Tony says:

    Ralf are you joking? VAT has just been added to European players tier payments and membership fees without any warning whatsoever.

  16. Justkickzazz Taurog says:

    Is this going to fix the asset server issue – I am currently busier with waiting for things being uploaded than anything else…well apart from fighting all the other obstacles that Sl puts in our ‘daily life’….
    Btw, changing to charging sales tax will bring a few nice surprises for you folks at Linden Labs…I can see quite a few lawyers gearing up and challenging your TOS as they undoubtly will be up for closer inspection in respect to conformity with current EU laws…no more ‘based in the US’ crappo anymore…congrats..you shot yourself nicely in the foot :p

  17. Olaf Bosch says:

    I am pretty sure the won’t put the VAT thing in a blog – but as I see the web page with fees still without an annotation about country depended applicable VAT the are offending european laws, which states that all consumer prices must be including vat.

    Due to this, in my case 20% increase of fees, I felt forced to sell half of my land to stay in an, for the service and playablillity SL gives, affordable fee pan.

    LL – You are diging your own grave?

  18. Berry Steinhoff says:

    Once you have stabilised the Grid, please would you address the VAT issue on the official blog so we may discuss this issue. You allowed the equally unpopular gaming ban to be discussed, please afford that courtesy to the VAT issue.

    Good luck with the troubleshooting.

  19. Zlad Voom says:

    @ Ralf

    LL kick again the EU and ignore the german law too coz here for any end user the VAT must be included in a price.
    Time to find a lawyer or cash out of this crap here 🙂

  20. Threshin Barnett says:

    err.. but if the grid is unstable because of the fixes that are needed and the changes already attempted, how will waiting for it to be stable (which logic suggest will not happen until the fixes are implemented) going to help?
    That’s a genuine question, by the way.
    I’m confused.
    Maybe I misread?

  21. Ishtara Rothschild says:

    Spry, the VAT has always been applicable. It’s EU law, companies like Blizzard or SOE have been adding 17.5% for EU customers for years. LL can hardly announce that they now no longer get away with tax fraud, can they? It’s really not their fault for a change.
    I’m hit by the VAT too and have to pay 230 instead of 195 for my sim now, but I’ve always seen this coming. We can complain to the eggheads in Brussels.

    What I’d like to know though is if there are any plans to do something against the enormous lag in the last weeks. Vendors are very unreliable, every third customer doesn’t get their wares. Rezzing newly bought items takes forever, sometimes they’re still eaten by the server. Avatars are often frozen to the spot, no movement possible. The camera also freezes, which makes building almost impossible. Deleted things stay around for a while, things that are picked up also leave ghosts and often never make it into the inventory.
    Building is almost impossible under these conditions, and the sales are at an all-time low. It almost feels as if you now host twice as many sims per server in order to cut the costs. Is there anything being done about this lag? We’re down to 40k concurrent users, so it should get better instead of worse, shouldn’t it?

  22. Walker Moore says:

    People, please don’t be so impatient. Crucial announcements likely to cause lots of noise and complaints aren’t posted until 16:59 on a Friday afternoon. A few more hours to go yet.

  23. Stoo Straaf says:

    Another call for a VAT blog please. The sudden and unexpected imposition of 17.5% on all region purchases and tiers has just about wiped out my business model.

    The Lindens already charge us $100 MORE for the SAME amount of land on a private sim, and now we have to pay another 17.5% on top of that. We just can’t compete as landlords against those on mainland based in the USA. The economics are totally infeasible.

  24. Ishtara Rothschild says:

    Oh, just saw that Spry’s comment about the VAT which I answered to has already been removed. Is this blog censorship really needed?

  25. Tony says:

    Blizzard charge me VAT if I play WoW Europe. I’m not sure how it works if I have an American account, maybe someone who has an American account from the time before WoW opened a European version could explain.

  26. Raven Primeau says:

    Tries to think what exactly my government are going to charge 17.5% Vat for
    Can LL send 17.5% crap service their way too please

    As for the grid Hmmmmmm how many days since you knackered it and only now you admit its got technical issues.

    looks like half my land has to go bye bye at least as US$40.00 land tier is far to much especially as its virtually unusable quite often stupidly though I pay it for my private bit of SL

    Judging by some entries recently LL has climbed on the stool, tied the noose around their own necks and are busy trying to kick said stool from under them

  27. Thank you lindens keep up the great work

  28. Sy Beck says:


    You have now wiped me out as a person who owns land to rent out at cost to any players so that they have a place to live and create. I will be downgrading and dumping my land as soon as I see what you have to say in your post. 7 of my European friends have now put 18 island sims up for sale between them and are downgrading membership. If you had the decency to announce this was in the pipeline we could have had a reasonable discussion and planned exit strategies. Because of your knee jerk, undercover of darkness approach we are now having to do the same with our tenants. Thanks for spreading ill feeling everywhere!

  29. Sylvie Matova says:

    UK Law states that all prices which are advertised to consumers (as opposed to businesses) must be shown inclusive of VAT.

    They can show a VAT exclusive price but must show the VAT INCLUSIVE one in their pricing structure.

  30. Lazarus Longstaff says:


  31. Raymond Figtree says:

    VAT Blog! And anwers to the myriad of questions on Resident Answers please. Better 36 hours late than never.

  32. Hands Mensing says:

    Vat Blog

  33. Jazzman Jibilla says:

    “…we want to wait until the service is in a stable state before we make any sweeping changes.”

    I am speechless.

  34. Mura Tomsen says:

    “Hello, Mura Tomsen.

    We have identified that you reside in a European country.”
    Let me tell you, Linden sweeties, that you have done nothing – I have stated where I come from long time ago in my registration. Thanks for sending me this message now making me feel like a caught cheater 😛
    And thanks for this ridiculous VAT action. European must pay additional VAT when importing goods into the European Union. I look forward to see you shipping me the SL server of mysim into the EU. Otherwise, this VAT action loks like a unjustified enrichment to me. This impression is deepend as Linden isn’t able to explain why they out of the sudden charge additional VAT to Europeans.

  35. Alicia Sautereau says:


    u find the time to work on the grid and make a blog for a stupid rolling restart but are incompitent to finally shed show light in the VAT crap ur shuving down our throats overnight

    That u LL had to cashout asap with rolling 2 new continents with a fixed starer price of $1250 USD instead of informing us that VAT was coming so we wouldn`t ditch our land and u sold nothing proves how %^$&E#&^#*^%($$(&%)*&$%^&% u are

    i could write a book in this comment but it would pass the 100mb and just in curse words

  36. Stoo Straaf says:

    Right, Sylvie… exactly. So let’s get some lawyers onto this. If the tier fees listed on the website say nothing about VAT, then surely we are to assume they ALREADY INCLUDE VAT, and therefore the Lindens are the ones who need to dig into their pocket and send the ‘invisible’ VAT to the relevant countries’ governments.

    I bet you they’ll update the website as soon as they realise their mistake. Until then, they shouldn’t charge us anything that isn’t clearly stated on their public website. I doubt the TOS cover this issue either.

    Defintely a case of not thinking things through before sending out that rather ominous email this morning.

  37. Oryx Tempel says:

    VAT Blog please.

  38. Seth Ock says:

    Ah … the griping continues. The Europeans complain because a U.S. company is operating on a U.S. schedule, armchair programmers are complaining because their pet bugs aren’t being taken care of fast enough, and I complain because I’m sick of all the complaining. I suppose it would be boring if we all “just got along”, but it sure would be nice if the usual suspects learned another tune.

  39. Cocoanut Koala says:

    Three letters: VAT.


  40. Taggie Boucher says:

    I just can’t believe this VAT charges, surely that is illegal for an American company to charge VAT as they are not collecting it for Europe, or are they? Strikes me as an attempt to rake in even more money or am i being cynical.
    Anyway LL keep up the good work in trying to fix a damaged product.

  41. Dianna Voight says:

    It is so sad to realize that SL is turning into a coorporative enviroment but still run under an amateur management. I dont doubt there are a lot of good and skilled people working there but is geting really frustating to watch the sl economy going down more and more each day and the lack of control of the system.
    Lag is a normal issue now, and it should not be like that !
    It is geting boring log in on SL. I am sorry for the europeans, i guess now that world is just open for really big profit companies because their complaints will be heard by LL financial dpto.
    sorry for the english (not american or european here, just a sl citizen)
    It is so sad…

  42. Matthew Dowd says:

    @31 yes, prices on the website should either include VAT or explicitly state that they don’t. Also if you own a private island, you’re current agreement with LL is to pay them $295 a month. Whether LL owes VAT or not does not affect that – your agreement with LL is to pay $295 a month. LL should give prior notice if it wishes to change that amount (similar with premier and mainland tier fees).

  43. Berry Steinhoff says:

    @37. My understanding is that Linden Lab should provide a UK VAT number so I may claim back my VAT every three months. By no means am I an expert on tax law, but I’m pretty sure Linden needs to be registered VAT in the UK in order to legally charge it. Where is Linden Lab’s UK VAT number listed or displayed?

    I’m not blaming LL for complying with EU laws. I’m blaming them for a shoddy and incomplete rollout of a new European charging system.

  44. jenn luke says:

    “UK Law states that all prices which are advertised to consumers (as opposed to businesses) must be shown inclusive of VAT.

    They can show a VAT exclusive price but must show the VAT INCLUSIVE one in their pricing structure.”

    quite correct

  45. Wynochee LeShelle says:

    VAT Blog? Tiers and fees for Europeans climbed up over night without any warning! For example: my compagnon has to pay now 39 US-Dollar more tier fee…per month, suddenly, over night… And: austrian and german law says since decades, that VAT have to be included in any end user prices. Wasn’t it before? And if not: why?

  46. Matthew Dowd says:

    @38 It would have made more sense if they rolled out a new set of prices in Euros for EU residents which included VAT (e.g. 245 Euro a month for an island – which exchanges to $295 + VAT give or take a Euro), and given at least a months notice before it was introduced.

  47. @5 Feynt Mistral asks, “why LL doesn’t keep a rollback state of all server code”

    We do. However, a rollback is a pretty dramatic undertaking – it carries nearly as much risk as rolling out new code, and is fairly impactful to the service. We are reluctant to roll out new code to the service without lots of eyes watching (which, BTW, is why we do rolling restarts during Linden business hours). Similarly, we don’t want to roll out new code on a Friday when the problems might not show up (and require diagnosis, triage, etc) over the weekend when there aren’t as many Lindens watching the dials.

    @18 Threshin Barnett asks: “if the grid is unstable because of the fixes that are needed and the changes already attempted, how will waiting for it to be stable … going to help?”

    Good question. We can break the “unstable” state down into two pieces:

    (1) pre-existing issues
    (2) issues caused by recent changes

    The fixes included in the server updates address (1) – they’re bug fixes and performance tweaks that address issues present on the grid for a significant amount of time.

    Issues seen over the last 48 hours fall into bucket (2). Some were immediate, and were addressed immediately. Others didn’t show up as big problems until nearly 12 hours after the central systems were updated on Wednesday morning. The two fixes I personally participated in making were in the second batch; both involved very slightly incorrect assumptions about how parts of the system should communicate to each other, which caused an overload in one part. The “client” systems were unaffected by the problem, and the “server” part of the system was capable of self-recovery so it took nearly a day for it to be really noticeable. Once it was, the two unrelated problems causing load on the system were identified and fixes were made.

    In none of these cases were the issues related to the new simulator code scheduled for deploy. However, they highlight the fact that problems don’t manifest immediately following a deploy, and that investigation is needed before any action is taken.

    (How can a rollback be unsafe? Let’s say the system starts out running code version A and the system is in state X. It’s been running more-or-less stable for weeks. You want to update to code version B and have the system in state Y. After plenty of testing, you roll out code version B, and the system enters state Y. However due to a bug, the system enters state Y’ instead, which is bad. If you roll back to code version A, you’re now running with code version A in state Y’ which is not what was tested – potentially worse than B with Y’ while you try and correct the code and/or state. Now obviously you want to try and test all rollback scenarios and all state transitions, but with large code changes you can’t test every possibility, and the bad states are by definition an unknown quantity.)

  48. harry quijote says:

    vat blog! why do the europeans suddenly get charged an additional 20% and not the US citizens? You telling me that US citizens dont pay vat taxes yet on their expenses… oh no wait, off course, their tax is already included in the purchase…. tsss…. give me a break…. as if the game isnt expensive enough for most players.

    Sounds to me that this is a trick to increase income from the european players, it’s certainly pathetic!!

  49. Gomez Bracken says:

    @33 “The Europeans complain because a U.S. company is operating on a U.S. schedule,”

    And now charging a 17.5% EU VAT tax as well as not deducting the US one (7.25%) we presumably have been paying until now first (we are paying UK VAT on top of US taxes now – or LL have increased thier profit margin by 7.25% overnight….

  50. Sian Lumley says:

    According to research on the web earlier, LL should have been charging VAT since 2003. I’m curious as to whether this explains why ACS announced a couple of months ago that they were changing their payment system to permit payments in L$ rather than US$, since payments in L$ are apparently exempt from VAT. In addition, are US players charged their local taxes, or is it only European players that are getting stuffed for taxes? Finally, will LL make it possible to pay Tier, etc in L$ in game as ACS are in the process of doing?

    Also, all players should check whether they may be liable for Income Tax payments on in-game earnings, as I was advised some months ago by a UK government department that I should disclose earnings when I mentioned that I was considering becoming an instructor (just before LL announced that they were removing their payments for instructors).

  51. Alicia Sautereau says:

    sorry joshua, but with all respect, bugoff and drag philly here as atm i doubt anyone give a u know what about a rolling restart and u`ll need to inject free money to get a rolling restart again on the economy after we pack

  52. Caleb Francis says:

    thanks for making it monday, so we don’t have possible constant problems over the weekend due to the restart that we would have to wait for fixing until after the weekend

  53. Jazzman Jibilla says:

    We can assume everybody is on overtime for the weekend to catch those,
    “Others didn’t show up as big problems until nearly 12 hours after the central systems were updated on Wednesday morning.”

  54. Gomez Bracken says:

    Joshua, instead of picking the two blog replies abut the rolling restart, what about an @ 2,6,7,10,11,13,15,16,17,19,21,22,23,24,26,28,29,31,32,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,42 & 43 post please?

  55. taff nouvelle says:

    Linden Lab are not incompetant, why do you think the age check was offered free of charge to concierge customers, so they would have a record of where we are for taxarion purposes, I am just beginning to realize that LL are actually very clever and devious, good idea to hide behind a mask of incompetance.
    Think back over the changes of the last few months, all leading up to this, they have known about it since they decided to move the banking to the UK.
    I wonder just how long this post will stay.

  56. murafication says:

    @ Joshua Linden: Thanx for explaining. Delaying the restart to next Monday sounds like a wise decision.
    @ LL financial department: The introduction of additional VAT to Europeans and the way it was communicated unfortunately set a negative example. I felt treated very rude by this mail! Additional information are needed to make it not look like an unjustified enrichment.

  57. Tony says:

    Joshua do yourself a favour and keep your blog on topic by dragging someone with responsibility here (kicking and screaming) to do their duty to European residents and post a VAT blog. This is disgraceful that your company won’t engage with resident on this matter.

  58. Cat Gisel says:

    You need to alternate between rolling rstarts and rocking restarts 🙂

  59. Cat Gisel says:

    Why is it 28 Sept and my info says 26 Sep and the grid is offline for the Wed. update from 6:00am?

  60. Misfit March says:


    And my government being doing it for years Is this another of theres or is Linden really silly to destroy there empire by driving away customers by not having the decency to pre inform us of this hidden Extra extra charges…

  61. shai Khalifa says:

    If they’re going to start charging VAT then what about the US taxes – and what about our Australian GST. … and it’s the same in Australia as UK – prices by law have to be shown as inclusive of GST. It’s also law to state what the GST component is when billing/invoicing.

  62. Jack Sakigake says:

    I am from US but I think you should put up something fro our European friend here… VAT blog!!!

  63. Bryon Ruxton says:

    @9 The reason Europeans have to take the load as you put it, is because the main servers happen to be in California and Texas. Having a maintenance outside of Linden Lab’s office hours is simply not viable.

  64. Jessica Hultcrantz says:

    Yet another typical case of us and them.

    Now SL is really turning into a segregated world where noone is equal anymore.

    So, for me it is clear: LL can’t handle the current amount of users, may it be high server load, bad programming or lack of network capabilities. And to get things right and try to get back to where they were before free accounts was put in service, they first ban gambling, then introduces IDV and not VAT.

    Isn’t it absolutely clear? LL wat SL to be 100% US again and with a less number of residents compared with the current state..

    Nice going… Shooting not one but both feets and the echonomy too at the same time…

    Will there still be a life in one year from now?

    Probably not.

  65. Jessica Hultcrantz says:

    and now VAT, not not 🙂

  66. This will help us get the word out!! SDG will open up a chat room for everyone who wants to have Live chat while waiting for the restart to reopen. We also post information on other happenings in Second Life. All are welcomed to join. Just sign in with your Second Life Name in the chatroom’s entrance page at http://sdginsl.bravehost.com and you will be whisked inside the chat room. while at this website notice I have a Second Life Classifieds page that is free for all Second Life and If you want more information regarding SDG advertising please look us up in search under SDG Enterprises and come to our office in Deepscale

  67. Inigo Chamerberlin says:

    If you are going to wait for the service to stabilise you might as well postpone the rolling restart indefinitely judging from what I’ve seen the last month or so…

    Oh, and VAT people?

    Wait until Monday and contact your local VAT collection office regarding this. And the California State department of taxation. Because if we are being charged both VAT and California State Sales Tax, that’s a breach of several international trade treaties to which both the US (and the state of California is part of that, or so they tell me) and the EU states are signatory.

    They say there’s no such thing as bad publicity, but this stupidity might just be an exception.

    And don’t expect Josh to put his job on the line answering VAT queries – he can’t. This is an all the way to the top issue.

  68. Alak Dyrssen says:


    LL increase charges to Europeans by 17.5% – Europeans leave game –

    * LL then loses all their [Europeans] subscrption money
    * Europeans sell off their land driving down LL’s auction land sale
    * LL loses all the Europeans’ tier payments
    * Rents and land prices fall through he floor.
    * LL loses income from all non-European players as they tier down or sell off due to above
    * Non-Europeans downgrade membership because of above – LL lose more income

    Hmm, how long till the penny drops with LL? Big price to pay for moving your billing for a few bucks more.

  69. Archer Braun says:

    Insure that you address SVC-114 as soon as possible. A rolling restart of the grid…fine…but everything else needs to be put on the back-burner until you address what is becoming a more commonplace occurrence of inventory loss.

    SVC-114…residents VOTE on this issue.

    SVC-114…LL…ACT on this issue. I would really like to have my “object missing from database” returned.

    SVC-114…FIX IT.

  70. Stoo Straaf says:

    I’ll certainly be paying a visit to my legal team on Monday. I doubt Linden Labs will have sorted out their illegal practices by then. This blog makes for some interesting reading… so they are charging us Californian tax on top of VAT? Gee… There’s something not right here.

    I suggest EVERY European user submits a support ticket to billing to make their feelings known. Also, contact your national press and bring this to their attention. SL has been getting a lot of press in the UK recently, so it’s a hot topic. And this seems about as hot as it can get. If you dare, you could also refuse to pay your land tier this month. If we ALL do that, Lindens will have to take notice.

  71. Bootylsh Carter says:

    VAT is illegal ,my rl husband is a lawyer btw .This is just an easier way to get the LL income bigger over the night . WAY TO GO LL !!! damn smart *butt* when it comes to ask for more money ,but not so clever in making the game stable HMMMMM !!!this has become too expensive for what it offers ….and after all ITS JUST A GAME FOR CHRIST SAKE !!! i aint paying any more money than i already have into an “poluated” by so many bugs “virtual air” ….

    R.I.P SL !!!

  72. Alicia Sautereau says:

    tik tak tik tak my tier date is monday… for the amount of service here i might aswell recall all CC purchases as of false advertisements, bad service and fraudent activities with not charging it befor while they had to and hiding/not stating clear prices and increase billing rate overnight with 19% with no prior announcements

  73. mcgeeb Gupte says:

    Wow, this is just most incredible form of ignoring you customers I have ever seen.

  74. cobalt neutra says:

    I haven’t been able to log in since last night. I opened a trouble ticket, and haven’t received any response. I get as far as “Initializing World…” and it just sits there. I left it sitting there for over an hour, with no response.

    Is this related to your bughunt?

    Why am I randomly getting messages from the 26th, telling me the grid is offline?

  75. Warda Kawabata says:

    Why hasn’t LL made a formal announcement regarding VAT yet?

  76. Moll Dean says:

    If you value Free Expression, why all posts had comments closed?

  77. Amanda Ascot says:

    Okaaaay …

    I’m not going to bite on the various off-topic topics, but I’m going to stick with the official topic of this thread, which, extended and generalized a bit is rolling restarts, and, by implication, updates on Monday instead of Wednesday.

    I’ve been asking for this for a long time. Do the upgrades on Monday. So you have them ready to go Wednesday — it doesn’t matter. Do everyone a favor and hold off implementing them until Monday. Then you have the whole week to sort out whatever issues they cause. I’d rather wait a few extra days for the promise of new goodies and bug fixes and avoid the almost certain aggravation of a weekend of problems and nobody to fix them.

    Here’s hoping for a change to Monday Maintenance.

  78. Alicia Sautereau says:


    if they would have done that, no one in their right mind would have bought land on the 2 new continents they had to cashout quickly befor shuving this on us overnight as we would have been busy selling our land to crash their cashout

  79. Stephe Erhler says:

    In addition, are US players charged their local taxes, or is it only European players that are getting stuffed for taxes?


    US citizens pay federal and state -income- tax (as well as property tax, capital gains taxes etc). Local sales tax is ONLY charged if you live in the state the company has an office in and some things like services/labor are exempt from sales tax anyway.

    I can see why you would be upset about being charged sales tax but if this really LL fault? Your country is the one who taxes YOU in this way. I already pay tax based on my income etc before I spend any of the money I earn, so should I also pay extra to play SL to cover your EU VAT taxes too? Maybe you wouldn’t mind sending me some money to cover some of my income tax 🙂

    As far as: if how they did this being legal etc, I have no idea but I don’t think the whole world outside of the EU should pay higher prices for SL services to cover EU sales taxes on this service. Obviously they need a EU pricing structure in euros to cover your country’s tax system seperate from the US price structure given we are taxed BEFORE we spend money not as we spend money. As far as US players paying less, we are playing with -after tax dollars- so it comes out the same IMHO as far as spendable income. This would affect you no matter what service you were paying for.

    Stephe Ehrler, who knows this isn’t going to be a poular position to take.

  80. Alak Dyrssen says:

    I wouldn’t bother doing the @”whatever number post”. Seems they are deleting VAT posts from the list all the time. Everyone ready for the 16.59 pm Blog post of Sales Tax charges to be added to all US residents’ accounts?

  81. Zillah Decuir says:

    Now I hate to play Devil’s Advocate, but okay. EU players have to pay taxes, and I feel for them.. The only reason I CAN care is because this affecting my buisness which is pretty much our only source of income. No one can go shop if they have to worry about paying extra tier and whatnot.. IT’S FRIDAY, GO CAREFREE AND SHOP EU’ERS! 🙂

    Okay, therre’s my shameless, heartless self promotion. Hooray rolling restarts!

  82. Stoo Straaf says:


    We are ALSO taxed on our income. So we pay tax on what we earn, and tax on what we spend! UK tax is 40% on income and 17.5% on spending!

  83. Sy Beck says:

    In response to Stephe Erhler the issue is not to do with comparitive tax regimes. It’s to do with the fact LL gave no notice of the coming charge while still selling subscriptions, islands and mainland even though they knew Europeans would be paying more than they were advertising to them.

    This will probably be deleted soon so I hope someone sees it before the Thought Police move in. Still no Blog post by LL on the matter, shame on you LL.

  84. sirhc DeSantis says:

    ok way off topic but fyi new registrations are offline as well – coincidence?

  85. Justkickzazz Taurog says:

    @67 dear me..we pay income tax AND VAT….I kindly spare you the other taxes we pay as well, as this would surely blow the blog into smitherines.

    I really don’t mind (well actually I do but there’s no way around) VAT but then, dear Lindonians, stop measuring with to kinds of sticks.

    If you do business based on EU laws, face them yourself and don’t hide behind you Californian laws as you did in the past. You can’t have both!

  86. Lord Humphrey says:

    Blog about VAT please so it can be discussed without hijacking this blog post. Innovative as it may appear, try engaging with your customers on something other than fluffy ‘Tip of the week’ posts. My tier just shot up from $295 to $346.62 and all I got to show for it was a pretty email to tell me I live in the wrong place. Very shoddy!

    If as has been suggested VAT is not charged on L$ payments I trust you will be implimenting this as a payment option?

  87. Nefertiti Nefarious says:

    Please restart the ADITI test grid! It’s the only safe way to test some things.

  88. mimi says:

    We apologize for the delay in getting bug fixes fixes out to the grid, but want to play things safe.

    thanks for trying to play things safe. We appreciate your efforts to get rid of bugs a lot!

    Whats is ‘VAT’?

  89. Sy Beck says:

    Agree with Lord Humphrey. Take L$ as a tier payment option as a stop gap option for the time being. Though you will probably tell us it’s a worthless monetary unit while still selling it to us at a marked up value against the dollar. /me sighs

  90. Bootylsh Carter says:

    my government returns my VAT every 3 months , i am from an european country. Now my question is how USA ( or LL) will return my VAT ???? oh and btw it happens that my husband is a lawyer ( REAL life husband ,REAL lawyer ) , and as he aknowledges this is illegal ,as theres is no legal notice between governements of USA and the European countries to apply these taxes , as anyway theres no such notice signed by their governement to get these funds returned .
    this has already became too expensive for just a game with an too “polluted” -of so many bugs – “virtual oxygen”

  91. Bootylsh Carter says:

    on and to the topic now btw ,what counts 2 more days to struggle with bugs if anyway we struggle with them with/without updates ,with/without rolling restarts !!!

  92. Well unless they all gone home already sure they will explain why the VAT (stands for value added tax – oh the irony!) has been added all of a sudden and are we paying USA tax etc. We are all confused so a simple answer would be nice 🙂

  93. Burgess Miles says:

    VAT is of course assumed to be included in all stated prices if not specifically stated otherwise. It’s NOT the Europeans customers problem if the Lindens didn’t think about this, it’s the Lindens labs problem and they have to take the required money out of THEIR pockets. It is of course impossible to charge anything less than the SAME AMOUNT for land and tiers for all users…As usual Linden labs take their problems out on their customers….

  94. doesn’t the vat cover your health care??? or a part thereof? see I pay about 490USD a month for health insurance, that covers 60/80% of my cost the rest is out of pocket.
    I think it really stinks they have added this on top of the fee, seems that LL needs to cover the cost until they re structure fees for EU in Eros.
    Good luck with the rolling start Monday, I don’t know if I will even attempt to log in this weekend.

  95. Alyx Sands says:

    VAT blog! And hey, I pay 19%, not 17.5!

  96. ZoHa Boa says:

    VAT ????

  97. Just seen the blog about Havok4 – must be why they started charging Europeans extra so we can pay for the upgrade costs they must have had to go through?! Okay – sarcasm on my part. Just trying to see if the Lindens crew are going to post a simple couple lines stating why VAT is now due when it wasn’t before (did the law change, did they go over the profit figure required for them to pay VAT etc) and why is it just EU that has to pay taxes for something that runs in USA?

  98. Stoo Straaf says:


    No, VAT doesn’t pay for health care. In addition to the 40% income tax and 17.5% sales tax (VAT) we ALSO pay about 10% NI (National Insurance) which pays for our health service.

    And then there’s the Council Tax, Refuse Tax, Car Tax, TV Licence (a stealth tax on watching TV)… I could go on…

  99. Sy Beck says:

    Reposting a deleted post that has appeared on the forums. Now somebody explain why LL wanted this deleted?


    LL increase charges to Europeans by 17.5% – Europeans leave game –

    * LL then loses all their [Europeans] subscrption money
    * Europeans sell off their land driving down LL’s auction land sale
    * LL loses all the Europeans’ tier payments
    * Rents and land prices fall through he floor.
    * LL loses income from all non-European players as they tier down or sell off due to above
    * Non-Europeans downgrade membership because of above – LL lose more income

    Hmm, how long till the penny drops with LL? Big price to pay for moving your billing for a few bucks more.

  100. JetZep Zabelin says:

    SL *IS* a game, just like life is a game. Why must losers whine so loudly?

  101. Sy Beck says:

    because they changed the rules without warning, name me a game where you can do that?

  102. bigmoe says:

    eep, so the lindens get legal and get bitched at, They have down time they get bitched at. notice where it always comes from.

  103. bigmoe says:

    Everybody ^^

  104. Latonia Lambert says:

    LL you have done some stupid things over the 3 years I have been in SL. However, this vat issue is probably the thing that will make me and many others sell our land. I will find a US landlord to rent from.

    You have sold islands to Europeans, knowing full well that vat was going to be added which may make it untenable for them and rolled the islands out with indecent haste.

    We all know you don’t give a damn about any of us – I just hope all your precious corporations can keep SL afloat after we find an alternative to SL.

    Your inability to communicate with us makes me sad, not angry, because it never used to be like that.

    To not even have a blog on this, for Europeans, very important subject, is completely unacceptable.

  105. Stoo Straaf says:

    If anyone wants to start a legal challenge to the manner in which this VAT has been imposed, please email me. My address is on my website.

  106. bigmoe says:

    you wont get far with legal action.

  107. Lord Humphrey says:

    @ 82 ….Congratulations. Quite possibly the most idiotic post I have had the misfortune to read.

    @ 83 Fanboy! If you can extract your nose out of LL collective proverbial for long enough you might see that many of us are not bitching about LL because they are adding this charge (or getting legal as you so quaintly put it), but for the shoddy way this was done, with little or no notice of their intention to impliment, and an apparant refusal to engage the many customers this will affect.

  108. Sy Beck says:

    I’m with you Stoo. Am sending a Freedom of Information request to HM Customs & Excise to find out when they told LL to cough up the money. If LL were selling to us after that without warning us then we have a case of mis-selling, false advertisement and possibly fraud, I think.

  109. mimi says:

    I just read the email about the VAT… the vat FAQ gives a message: service unavailable

    Why haven’t we been warned about this before it was implemented? At least then we would have had time to get rid of our land BEFORE having to pay extra?

  110. Chronic Skronski says:

    *sigh* This blog is turning into a whole crowd of Usagis.

  111. notagambler says:

    i only need to pay tax/vat for things they will be brought to me in my homeland/ eu…

    LL is located in USA , so there is nothing they brought to me in EU… so no vat no tax

    i wonder what LL is doing with this vat/tax they invoice outside the usa…. maybe only steal again money from paying users?

    btw. another matter not go to a payed account….. and i pay my sim-owner only as i gave him a gift….. gifts are free from vat/tax

  112. Tony says:

    The fact that LL won’t blog at all on this issue tells you all you need to know about how LL value their European customers.

  113. notagambler says:

    LL= Linden Liars as well

  114. U M says:

    Thank you for the update

  115. harry quijote says:

    @67 you so ignorant and stupid, if you think that you american are the only ones paying income tax….. please go back to college… you’d be surprised the hights of income taxes in europe!!

    @90 exactly…. i buy something in the usa, why on earth am i going to pay eu VAT?? VAT ain’t importing taxes!! If i buy a beer in a NY bar, you think they should charge me 20% VAT for getting me that beer??

    LL get REAL!!!! THIS IS FRAUD!!

  116. U M says:

    @40 HAHAHA

    trying living in Japan and their prices ( and not paying with US $ or Euro $. ) I pay more per month ( then europeans or americans ) because i use YEN based payment for tires and yearly on SL. I lose money. Ever since I joined i had to pay more money per month because of yen to $ change. 115 yen to the US $ 1.00.

  117. U M says:

    oopps that was to be for @94

  118. Ron Crimson says:

    We get AIDS, Iraq, Darfur, global warming, etc…. and everyone shrugs it off and goes on with life.

    We get one U.S. company being *forced* to implement VAT for its European customers – based on legal consultation – and stuff starts hitting the fan.

    I wish people would expend this much energy on solving REAL-WORLD ISSUES. This whole thread is one of the most pathetic yet. *sigh*

  119. Jayme Llewellyn says:

    Hopefully this will fix the consistent issues of crashing without warning, serious lag-time and stupid BS issues with log-in. C’mon Linden Labs, you guys have had five years to fix these problems and you still haven’t done it? What have you been doing … twaddling your thumbs for five years?

    Has anyone noticed how LL just took the entire system of-grid today … without warning us? Lovely Job, Linden. Way to care about your customers.

  120. martin magpie says:

    September 26, 2007, 6:00 am – Second Life is closed for a scheduled service outage while we make updates to the grid. The outage is expected to last from 6am-8am Pacific Time (13:00-15:00 GMT). Watch the blog for details and updates.

    Hello….anyone home? It’s the 28th, and the grids down.

  121. Angelica Seaton says:

    Rolling restarts??? I’d like to be able to stay in SL long enough TO be rolled. Is anyone else suffering from ‘Error message overload’ ever since the new update? Now I have an error message when I try to log in telling me Second Life cannot be accessed from my computer. I could have sworn I bought a new dress 15 mins ago. I am most discombobulated, please, pretty please sort it out LLs.

  122. Wyald Woolley says:

    Chr*st Almighty, Usagi discovers this blog and burns three slots in 30 seconds!

    I pray that the Monday restart brings less lag and a more satisfactory SL experience. It’s getting harder and harder to go in-world and actually enjoy the experience. Once it’s no longer fun…why come?

    I really enjoyed Joshua’s explanation of the restart. It was well written and made sense. Something I often don’t see Lindens do. Thanks Joshua!

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