Music Development Mailing List

At SLCC this year we offered to setup a music development mailing list to facilitate discussion around a very large topic – music in Second Life! Resident musicians, venue owners, buillders, scripters, audiences, and promoters are all invited to participate. Linden Lab recognizes all the innovative work that has been going on in the music community and we want to do all that we can to help it thrive and continue to grow. Our goal in this is to work in concert with you to make Second Life a viable platform for music promotion, performance, and distribution.

This mailing list is open to anyone who is interested in sharing their ideas with Lindens as well as each other on how to better support the Second Life music community. What are some best practices that are currently working well for the music community?
What are the biggest challenges? What would you like to see Linden Lab provide to better support this community? These are the types of discussions we’d love to see!

One rule: please don’t use this mailing list to announce specific music events. Information about such events can already be found on the Second Life events calendar (see http://tinyurl.com/29aec7). We’d like to keep traffic on this mailing list exclusively focused on discussions about music development in Second Life.

To subscribe, click here!

Your ideas, feedback, and insights will be invaluable to us. Lindens will be reading and participating in the discussion as much as possible.

This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Community, Creativity & Ideas, Music, Resident Experience. Bookmark the permalink.

101 Responses to Music Development Mailing List

  1. Dekka Raymaker says:

    Linden supported streaming for playlist music software straight from your own Mac or PC, please.

  2. Athena Whizenhunt says:

    I have subscibed as soon as I saw this blog! But I am also laughing!
    I hope the Lindens realise that PG sims do not allow “obscene” languages, ha! Since a larrge number of songs today contain explicit sexual references and profanity I am sure they cannot be allowed in PG sims, just another thing the Lindens will have to police I suppose.
    I love music! But I hate age verification and I will be sure to start turning in those PG sims that participate in “innappropriate content” when they play thier music streams, lol, in retaliation for what you have created I will begin using this TOS rule to overflow the system with abuse complaints and TOS violations. No one will be safe anymore.

  3. Athena Whizenhunt says:

    I am rallying for an avatar riot, lol others have requested it of me

  4. Ahzzmandius Werribee says:

    Most home machines have insufficient bandwidth upstream to do more than a few streams. Each client that streams the video/audio is going to take up a significant chunk.

    Sides, you can already do that with 3rd party apps as a streaming server. That’s why SL uses URLs for the stream source in a parcel.

  5. Subscribed! Thank you Jesse! Now I can stop bugging you all, look forward to getting a good discussion going.

    (aside) why do people always have to sidetrack these comment streams?

  6. Cincia Singh says:

    A good music discussion would be a great thing. Music in SL is okay for now with canned streams and DJ’s, but the live music scene could use some serious work.

  7. Slim Warrior says:

    WOOOT!
    Thankyou Jesse!
    Like Kaklick posted above, I really look forward to getting discussions going…

  8. Emondrell Raymaker says:

    Oo excellent, improvements to user-submitted content submission (in this case music) are almost always welcome. Can’t wait to see what comes of this.

    Hehe, I wonder what spell check thought “buillders” was (no worries lol)

  9. me says:

    what happen to all the casino’s i just had to say that!

  10. Ron Crimson says:

    “Our goal in this is to work in *concert* with you…”

    LOL ๐Ÿ™‚ Good one Jesse… ๐Ÿ˜‰

  11. Um, hate to pick nit’s but, even though I’m supposedly subscribed (it gave me the welcome email back) it keeps holding my attempted posts. Never had a mailman list do that to me before.

  12. You guys do realize that streaming music from your own PC from your own music list is a copyright violation and illegal right?….. Same goes for movies. I don’t think LL is promoting that, they are promoting music from independent artists that own the rights to their music.

  13. Anonymous says:

    I’d like to see the ability to upload sound files in a complete file… none of this 10 second crap. also more supported file types, like .mp3, .wma, and others

  14. Matthew Dowd says:

    “What are the biggest challenges?”

    Errr, that fact that llPlaySound has been broken since March is a major challenge (see http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-291 and related) especially if using scripts to string together multiple sound files to get around the 10 second limit!

    Matthew

  15. Delgado Cinquetti says:

    I don’t mean to sound negative, but I can smell another ‘rule’ in the making? Oh, never mind! I think that’s just my hard drive frying.

  16. Blinders Off2 says:

    I have a question for Linden Labโ€ฆ how long does it take for comments โ€œawaiting moderationโ€ to be opened up to public view? Or does LL even bother? A lot easier to just let โ€˜em sit forever isnโ€™t it.

    And BTW, I love the numerous posts where comments are closed. Guess you just know how people are going to react ahead of time, eh, so you cut off the negative reactions at the go. So much for free speech and โ€œitโ€™s your worldโ€.

    Please, more posts with comments shut off! Woot! Inspires such confidence!

  17. Didier Soyuz says:

    Sounds interesting. Anything that can help musicians and performers is a good thing. More features to help sell full albums of original music within SL would be very helpful too.

  18. Signed up and ready for some discussion.
    Musician, promoter, club owner.

  19. mush Caldera says:

    For DJs to be legal, I suppose, we need an application that lets DJs broadcast the URL of a song. Everyone’s puter then checks to see if they have that song, and plays it if they do.

    If not, the application transparently downloads the tune from iTunes or someplace and a few pennys later everyone is happy.

  20. Casandra Streeter says:

    I find the music inworld VERY AM.You have stations now like the 80s channel which is very weak in content,and very bland.Maybe format it like satellite radio where each genre is seperated into specific groups.IE Rock.classic rock,country,jazz you know the format.Most music inworld is hardly dancable.

  21. Votslav Hax says:

    Hooray… Since my birth I have enjoyed the different venues promoting ‘live ‘ music in SL. Short of supporting and attending a ‘tacky’ sex club or casino, my options are limited for a worth while experience in Second Life….’Live’ music has filled that gap.Thank You Lindens for noticing the potential of ‘performing art’ and will ardently support and promote this wonderful medium… Hey Hey My My, Rock and Roll is here to stay…

  22. Argent Stonecutter says:

    Support MIDI as an alternative to WAV for audio files. MIDI files contain notes and timing, not waveforms, played back using samples already shipped with everyone’s computers. They’re a hundred times as compact (no, that’s no exaggeration) and far more versatile. No, they’re not streamed, they don’t have to be: in the same storage and bandwidth requirements as a 10 second audio sample you can fit an entire track.

    And you don’t have to be able to set up a streaming server or own the land you’re on to play it.

    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-686

  23. Ive tried to interest folks like RealWorldReMixed in considering a presence in SecondLife, since RealWorldReMxed ( Part Of Peter Gabriels RealWorld label) allows folks a unique way to interract with musicians, but sadly ive had no response.

    If Secondlife could make such an opportunity possible, with sympathetic musicians here.. coupled with a 3D visual contribution too, bringing everyone, not just musicians, but ordinary folks who aspire to music and visual technique and interpretation…. then i would like to see that possible.. just listening to some of the remarkable remixes on RealWorldReMixed is special.. some gifted remixers.

    Maybe i`m just giving a singular and solo opinion… after all, no one in RWRM has said it sounds a great idea..yet… but unless one knocks on all the doors.. one wont know…
    so im knocking…:)

  24. @13
    It will take a lot more than that. http://www.riaa.com/whatwedo.php?content_selector=whatwedo_licensing


    . . . Offering a jukebox on the Internet. Interactive services do not qualify for a statutory license. Instead, such operators must obtain performance licenses from individual copyright owners, just like other webcasting services. Interactive services include those that permit a listener to choose a particular song and those that create a personalized program for the listener. If copies were being made into the computer server, operators would need to negotiate reproduction rights also. See the Webcasting FAQ for more information.”

  25. Astarte says:

    #1 funny Dekka. I have always been able to do that

    #9 Yes Jaydee I do realise that, and is why I rarely do it, only as a temporary standby if streaming problems. Then again I don’t have the bandwidth to stream to more than about 5 peoples.

  26. Kahni Poitier says:

    Well, according to current RIAA standards, anyone who plays music anywhere at any time without paying for a license is breaking the law, unless it’s 100% original content, and even then, SoundExchange will come in and collect royalties for you, even if you specifically state that you do NOT want royalties collected and intend to give the music away for free.

    It’s organized crime.

    And as for MIDI? Puhleeze.

  27. Alex Warrior says:

    G’day Jesse

    Lovely! I look forward to learning a lot more from others with this subscription / discussion, especially when running a not-for-profit music promotion place!

    Cheers
    Alex

  28. Fluf says:

    Uh oh.
    I should be thinking:
    “Yay music content being supported and developed!”
    So why am I thinking:
    “Oh no .. Linden’s mucking up broadcasting”?

    I’m suddenly picturing SL with only fully licensed music streams including live events in the few places that can afford to do it … sigh … creativity, expression and freedom down the plughole.

    Way to go America. Thanks.

    PS. Please please please prove me wrong!

  29. LilMissPriss Lane says:

    I would love to see Karaoke in SL ๐Ÿ™‚

  30. Haroldthe Burrel says:

    I’m in. See how it pans out.

    HtB

  31. Votslav Hax says:

    Hang on Haroldthe it looks like a bru-haha !

  32. Von Johin says:

    Buying a stream from Shoutcast takes care of the licensing issue, folks.

  33. Ashrilyn Hayashida says:

    SL uses FMOD, but cannot play mod (mod, s3m, xm, it, and so forth) files. It would be a good thing for some types of musicians.

  34. richard says:

    there goes the music

  35. sound exchange can not and will not collect from Creative Commons licenses it is a license to use it (depending on witch one) as well as written permission…. now heres an issue I will bring up. Covers live, in the Real world bars/clubs cover the performance royalties, for the artist, here is that fine line … HATE THE RIAA and their partners in crime ..

    Long live the MUSIC!!!!
    http://boycott-riaa.com
    http://dmusic.com

  36. and darnit I can’t send my e-mail in as I use yahoo to send from my web sites mail ๐Ÿ˜ฆ on hold waiting aproval

  37. Nulflux Negulesco says:

    Aside from my usual rantings about impending revolution and government conspiracy I would like to say thanks Lindens. The release candidate is operating rather nicely, frame-rates (at least for me) are through the roof and crashes are down substantially.

    On-topic, I would like to echo the requests of others regarding new and varied support for music file-formats not currently available. The idea for MIDI file support would make me very happy, most of the music I wrote as a teen-ager is in MIDI format – ranging from trance like drumriffs to near orchestra quality compositions. When I started using SL I was extremely suprised that SL did not have support for some of the most common and widely used formats such as MP3 and OGG.

    As far as efficiency goes, MIDI would blow away the current support for waves in most cases. Typically songs with 4-5 channels that run for 3-4 minutes are less than 10kb using MIDI… you’d be lucky to fit a second or two of audio in a wave file for that amount of space.

    I do have a request to add that may be a valuable implementation:
    Please allow us to upload a song longer than 10 seconds in a single chunk. I know it has been asked before and the reply usually falls within 2 categories: lost money from uploads and limits on storage space. To defeat these arguements, I ask that you simply charge us 10LS for each 10 seconds of the song. Storage space is moot, if someone wanted an entire song they still upload it in chunks of 10 seconds (the data for an entire song still resides on the server, even if it is in multiple pieces).

  38. Kava says:

    Sorry but am i the only one here who’s missing something?
    You cannot turn vocals into Midi Files, so whats the point on wav to Midi conversion. Mp3’s will do the job!

  39. concerned says:

    To some of the osts in here read the blog post they are asking for ideas to promote second life as a viable music venue and right away people jump in sayingabout copyright etc.They want ideas we might have for making sl a viable and productive venue for artist etc hopefully this will bring bands in to promote and launch new artists that dont have the means to get a record contract right now,Hopefully at some point in your lives you will realizes something positive going on instead of new blog a good chance to moan,Sorry for the rant but if theres a problem i will go off to but some people will find a negative in anything thats posted.

  40. Keiko says:

    Honestly, the only problems I have during performances is when the grid’s unstable. If suddenly TPs don’t work, or people can’t search the Events list, or Pay doesn’t work, then I’m in mucho trouble! ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

    Other people can pipe up about how to make streaming better and all the technical stuff. That’s important, too. And yeah, I’ve joined the list. Here’s hopin’!

  41. Grow says:

    Jaydee Unknown, you have a good point! LL provide the tools to record stuff you see and hear in SL, they also provide the tools for people to Pirate music/ films etc.. Gambling got banned, will voice get banned cos people blast out music through it? Will clubs be banned next- as they play music we can copy? interesting thought. So much for the slogo you have.. also LOL @ changing AGE Validation to ID validation after you cocked up so bad saying its to protect minors, when the main grids ment to be an adult one :p

  42. TheMusicBiz Lane says:

    I am a RL FM radio DJ with a Blues show in South Jersey, USA. I had my own piano tuning and repair biz for 23 yrs until a car accident gave me pinched nerves. On another chat program I used to run a live concert music room. Most of the live musicians from there have come to SL and I have been here since March 2007. I only drown once a day now!!! LOL On the other chat I worked with the live musicians on their sound and PC settings. I have continued that on SL On my RL radio show I have played their commercial CDs. Since coming to SL I have started to find the live musicians and added them to my playlist. Recently I gave one band their RL CD radio debut. At my home I had a live music jam with live musicians from the other chat from all over the world for 3 days. Some are on SL now too. This was live broadcasted with audio and video on that other chat. For 5 1/2 yrs I have gone out to live gigs doing the same kind of live broadcasting. The thing I like about SL is the sound!!! Currently I am working with a land owner/builder/instructor that has started a radio station that he plays on his land with information about SL. I am looking for live musicians from SL that would like to have more exposure by having interviews and them playing ORIGINAL music. This will all be recorded and played in rotation on the radio station. Giving out their websites during the interview will produce more traffic to their website and help the SL community to get to know them better. (Venue owners feel free to contact me for interviews also.) Hopefully people will want to visit the venue to hear them play live on SL. This radio station will be also offered to other sims/land owners/venues soon. I am not just interested in Blues musicians. In RL I have many contacts with other DJs all over the world that are looking for new artists. I fill in for other DJs at my station and play that genre of live musicians’ CDs I have from the net. Giving out their websites has resulted in people coming out to see them live, buying their CDs there or from their website. In RL I have worked with Grammy winners not only by interviewing them via phone prior to their show to hype it, I have emceed their concerts and been invited to record them live. I have been asked to interview the headliners for the Mid Atlantic Blues Fest in Atlantic City, NJ Sept 29, 30 to help promote the event on my RL show. I have previously interviewed and supported many of these world class artists on my radio show and in person at their event. I have emceed a 2 day music festival in my area along with many local concerts and gigs. My goal is to live broadcast onto SL gigs, concerts and fest so that the events/musicians/venues get exposure. The radio station I am on in RL is in the Philly Market which is the 6th largest listening audience in the USA. I have RL venues that want me to live broadcast from their location but it proves a problem with taking over the slot of another DJ by preempting them. Soooo.. SL is a great choice to do this. I am learning all that is needed to accomplish this feat on SL. Feel free to email me at TheMusicBiz@hotmail.com if you are a live musician on SL and want to be part of this SL radio station interview/playing rotation and/or want to submit a commercial CD for consideration for RL airplay. Please put in the email subject area “SL live musician” so I know to open it up. I look forward to being part of this great Music Development arena. I am not boasting with all I have said. I “fell” into all this because of becoming a Radio DJ. I thought I was just playing Blues to the deer in the Pine Barrens of South Jersey!!! LOL The RL station also has a web stream so we are heard world wide on the net too. My interest is also to form a network of RL FM/AM DJs on SL of any genre so that we can help these struggling artists to get a world wide exposure. Feel free to email me but put “RL radio DJ” in the subject area. I have many more ideas for SL with live music at another time. Lindens… feel free to email me also with anything I can do to help.

  43. Lina Pussycat says:

    @30 clubs dont play music that is directly copyable without a stream ripper to ban that internet radio as a whole in any form would need to be banned as anything that passes through your computer is recordable. if you have the url for the music you can record it if it plays thru your soundcard you can use a capture device and record it. If images hit your graphics card you can grab them anything that hits your computer in general can be gotten or “pirated” they’d need to outlaw computers etc.

    Also age validation is to protect minors so that they need to provide valid verification that they are in fact 18. IE if they cant provide that they cant access “adult” areas and are limited in that scope in case they are in fact minors….

    Gambling got banned as its illegal under U.S Federal law. Music however is through the RIAA the most they can do really is sue you as they arnt a governmental entity.However alot of their rate hikes etc are quite a bit excessive. Currently it costs more to run an internet radio station then it does to run a terrestrial (r/l) radio station which is really a bit absurd…

  44. Lina Pussycat says:

    Though the fed’s can step in and fine you as well with “copyright” law which is in fact a bit redundant and an abuse of what copyright was originally meant for. Copyright is there to protect the consumers etc and its been abused by corrupt businesses to meet their own ends. The RIAA needs to get out of its 1980’s business mentality and see that the future doesnt lie with them if they fail to adapt to get the artists better exposure and a larger fan base that is their problem..

  45. Tegg B says:

    Ahzzmandius Werribee Says:

    August 31st, 2007 at 1:58 PM PDT
    Most home machines have insufficient bandwidth upstream to do more than a few streams. Each client that streams the video/audio is going to take up a significant chunk.

    Sides, you can already do that with 3rd party apps as a streaming server. Thatโ€™s why SL uses URLs for the stream source in a parcel

    Most people with home machines would only want to listen to one music stream at a time though………..

  46. Shakeno Tomsen says:

    [sarcasm]PARENTAL ADVISORY
    Explicit content & mature language

    Flag some concerts as “Adult” because they contain offensive lyrics and the musicians have no shirts, with blood painted on their bodies to show their inner pain.[/sarcasm]

    P.S: ‘ยฌยฌ

  47. I hope that the new group will inspire some actuall debate about the practicalities of streaming live shows as opposed to “live” shows in SL. Things that hinder me? the cost of my paying my accompanist to play with me as opposed to the money I earn in SL. I beleive in LIVE music not “live” music. The Clubs don’t get any money for a crowd unless they are inside a mall ect…therefor we have to ask why have a venue….love of music…Clubs in Malls=lagg. limited sim limits…100 people in a sim. SL is not user pay for music, for everything else yes…but music should be free? someone allways has to pay….. either the venue or the musician, but not the listener?. We musicians have to pay for streaming costs, tier, rent same as everyone else who is “living” here, ect… most mucisians are busking on SL and therefore the solo acts or acts miming or performing to backing tracks rule. They make the most money and get most of the gigs.
    If you want to see a band of more thatn 2 people its unafordable for the band
    Venues cannot afford to pay more that 3k per act mostly and split that between a 3 or 4 piece band its not going to pay anyones tier….

    Unless the audience starts paying to see music, or the venues have another income or there is sponsorship of music (what does that really mean…it can mean lack of artistic freedom….)

    in RL we all pay to see music unless its a busker
    So if the audience doesn’t want to pay… then they can’t expect much more than solo busking and Karioke. Also America is one of the only countries that generally tip in RL and SL

    There is almost no live music for the rest of the world on SL on differeent time zones why? because no one wants to open a live music club for Euros Asians and Aussies because we don’t tip! and there is a fear that if clubs start charging entry that they will be greifed by villiganties who don’t understand that differeent cultures…don’t tip……its not in our culture (Im an aussie) …we pay for entry in RL and almost never tip except for a few cents…

    and thats my 2 cents worth! we need to get some ideas around this to expand the types of music we have so that musicians can afford to be part of SL and work here and be self sufficient without having to work 7 days a week for less than an escort gets in one session….and…yes Im selling more mp3’s but not enough to cover my costs people would rather see a live show than buy mp3’s on SL …

    Paisley Beebe.

  48. Fluf says:

    @29 – concerned
    I’m done with the happy happy joy joy stage of being a secondlifer. I’m still in debt for the original concept and the grid even existing. But …
    Recent events: Open letter requesting concentration on bug fixes rather than voice etc … largely ignored.
    Voice rolled out as a Linden priority despite very very low requests for it.
    Gambling banned at short notice reducing land value and player interest.
    ID system to be rolled out despite legitimate concerns voiced by residents about the practicality.
    Premium account numbers dropping last month.
    Continued grid stability problems.
    Plus a bunch of other issues….
    Make me see this as a bad thing.
    -=Especially since I know many SL musicians wouldn’t even play at SLCC because of the contract terms they were asked to sign=-
    I admire your optimism though.

  49. Full MIDI support โ€” beyond allowing MIDI as a valid “sound asset” (like WAVs) โ€” would be interesting. Imagine a performance where musicians have their MIDI devices (keyboards, guitars, drum boxes, synthesizers) hooked up on their computers, and, via SL, can get MIDI sync messages to play together. Yes, I know, this already exists, but the nice part of it would be to sync these to your avatars and/or LSL-scripted instruments. Then, say, if you’re pressing the C on your MIDI keyboard, your avatar would get the appropriate gesture triggered, and your SL-based keyboard would also get a message to say “C key depressed”. Conversely, touching SL-based devices would send MIDI messages, which would be audible to anyone in the environment, and even possibly registered by MIDI composing/mastering software. SL as the ultimate virtual MIDI studio!

    Now wouldn’t that be neat? ๐Ÿ™‚

  50. GC Continental says:

    /me awaits streaming into a prim and not just into land… same mechanism, moved ๐Ÿ˜‰ Then the live musicians could stream into their own spatialized area without the need for media rights to the land ๐Ÿ™‚

    .. and I could sell way cooler instruments than anyone else ๐Ÿ™‚

  51. Klaatu Congrejo says:

    So will we need to be ‘age verified’ to download adult content lyrics? Can we play adult content music on our land if we are not age verified?Does this mean that those who refuse to be age verified will have their right to free expression limited? And does this mean that businesses that trade in music and are not age verified will be flagged as ‘not to be trusted’ under your rules?
    This issue is going to affect EVERY area of SL and many questions need to be answered.
    The age verification issue still has a long way to go.

  52. I agree with all the folks who support MIDI! ๐Ÿ™‚ I _loooooooove_ MIDIs. They also have such a nice, small file size.

    Their quality does fluctuate depending on how good your soundcard is, though. The same MIDI can range in quality from magnificent to terrible depending on your set-up. One of the things I most miss about my old computer is the much better sound card.

    A lot of MIDIs sound tons better with lots of reverb effects added by my sound card. SoundFonts also can make a huge difference in the sound.

    Some features in Second Life which would make it possible to make sure the MIDI you upload sounds to everyone exactly the way you intend it to sound might be good.

    I’m not a very technical person, but, I’m guessing there must be some way of playing MIDIs that isn’t so reliant on hardware/your soundcard. Perhaps there is some kind of software-based way of playing MIDIs which would make it so the MIDIs will sound the same to everyone who listens?

    Support for SoundFonts would be excellent. Someone could upload a MIDI, and maybe upload a SoundFont too, and then specify they want the MIDI to play using that SoundFont.

    Also, I think being able to make some custom reverb settings which you can apply to various different MIDIs (and which you can also remove and change depending on your mood) would be excellent too.

    Just some ideas… ๐Ÿ™‚

  53. Arth Karas says:

    As a musician, this is exciting, and shinys are nice but

    –CLEAN UP THE CURRENT HIGH PRIORITY SERVER BUGS, PLEASE!–

    –MAKE A VOICE CLIENT THAT ROCKS!–
    (So much memory loss in this one, it sucks.)

    Then, when this we are ready
    –ENABLE MIDI–
    –ENABLE SCRIPTED MIDI–
    –ENABLE VOICE CLIENT SUPPORTED MUSIC–

    I gotta love that you Lindens are continually breaking new ground. I pray you consolidate your advances in sound client first!

    Love, Arth Karas

  54. Lina Pussycat says:

    @35 The Open Letter while correct to a degree also has one flaw. Not all programmers that work at LL are going to be good at bug fixes they have certain areas for each thing and halting feature additions (some of which will help stabilize things) is slightly redundant they cant halt development of the product just to focus on bugs it’d stagnate….. The fact that your in debt isnt LL’s fault its because many people in here seem to think they should play beyond their means and do so (the likely case here) causing them to not be able to keep up in some cases….

    There are plenty of bug fixes rolled out each update. Look at another games bug updates in comparison to Second Life sometime when they have a patch they patch a few things here and there SL has 20+ things patched almost every single time. Things are moving forward as they are able to expand more and more. Havok and Mono have both made more strides they are working on a second phase of sculpties to try and better their accuracy there is alot of things going on in the background development wise and support wise they are doing their best,.

    Sure there are times i get frustrated but overall grid stability is getting better there are problems that arise since they are trying to switch/in transition of / are switching over to a new system so that downtime and update downtime is minimalistic. They are trying tog et better feedback on bug releases and implemented release candidates and overall are trying to get stuff going better and better. Im far from a linden labs fan girl but there are great things happening. Yes voice wasnt completely necessary but its a nice addition. Rather then having to open up skype just to talk to someone you know in SL you can message them in world. If you dont want to use it dont use it people arnt going to be smug to you cuz you dont. I still talk in text to many people.

    I applaud LL for things like this they are looking at features which make things easier on people. Just because you may not approve of something doesnt mean others dont you dont want voice i dont care if voice is there and see many places were it could be used….. There are people that complain when there are updates with just bug fixes that LL needs to stop updating and focus on bugs some people just complain for the sake of it…

  55. I am a musician in SL and own a business selling an audio manager in SL. One feature many of my customers ask for is the ability to have multiple streams per parcel, at different heights. This would allow tenants above one another in an apartment building to have their own music. One stream per parcel regardless of height is too restrictive.

    Another feature that would be nice is to allow the stream to emanate from a point source instead of being ambient throughout the parcel. Note that this is different from current sound-producing objects – I would keep the current permissions structure, but tie it to a texture like the video stream, and have it fade away over distance. This would enhance realism.
    ~Slip

  56. Torian says:

    @30 good point – playing any music except your own original stuff through voice is illegal. This is probably the first legitimate reason I have seen for getting rid of it. Yes, if this holds up, voice will have to go.

  57. Fluf says:

    Hey Lina @ 40!
    Being “in debt to LL for the grid” means I recognise I owe them my thanks for that.
    I wasn’t trying to start a voice is good / bad debate. And am not about to get pulled in to one now.
    The basic point I was getting at is that LL taking an interest in Music worries me because they have past and current form for rolling out features like voice and IDV without taking account of residents views.
    I’m expecting that after you all have your nice little chat in LL’s forum, LL will roll out some new “Music and recording rights” policy or something which will once again annoy / frustrate residents and remove currently pleasurable activities from SecondLife.
    If there’s one thing worse than someone who moans about SL all the time, it’s a born again SL’fr that thinks the sun shines out of LL’s …… (content restricted due to possible under 18 viewers).
    And I’ll say it again. Because you missed it.
    I know of Live SL Musicians who refused to play at the SL Convention because of the contract conditions.

  58. Rea Sands says:

    I see that the ideas are pouring in.Hope this will help better the music development on SecondLife for all.I would like to know first how do I get my mp3 files uploaded to my instrument,guitar so I can play them when I am play the instrument.The files only allow mid that I can see,when I asked to upload songs.There is one software that I use to make mid files.I like Pro Tabs.It is compatable to all versions of windows and easy to use.You can use 1 to 6 different instruments and edit each instuments tab as well.Then save as any file type but mp3.For mp3 fliles convert them from to mid files, is a bit tricky.Best to download the whole song of the artist from limewire.

  59. Jakyl Lightfoot says:

    I just listen to the music people play over voice, thank you very much… You can’t stop that…unless it’s taken away…I bet the Lindens didn’t think of the copyright issues that voice would bring in ๐Ÿ˜‰

  60. hugsalot says:

    RIAA will probably want to put their nose in this and see if there’s anyone they can sue, and make money from.

  61. Maybe it would be fun to have more means to compose music, of have random composition bots, or sound processing devices, such as echoe, filters, mixers, etc

  62. Great to see this discussion forum starting because the current sound (i.e. WAV producing) capabilities are kind of rudimentory and buggy.

    None-the-less it’s amazing what can be done with what we have.
    For example it is possible to send midi data in world using the libsecondlife/SLProxy tools. We can play polyphonic tunes on our keyboards in the real world and that translates to velocity sensitive sound file ‘notes’ being played in world with a latency of around 1 second.

    It is occasionally quite ‘jumpy’ and the bug mentioned in http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-291 is a total pain but with improvements in LSL, including to the speed of execution, I am looking forward to a time when we can have some real fun jamming in SL.

    People ask me whether it is possible to send midi signals back to their synthsisers which I dont really understand but short of spamming your channel 0 I cant really see a way to do this at the moment.

    These sorts of capabilities could be added very easily to the main code rather than a fully fledged Midi sound system. The payoff would be a low bandwidth protocol for all sorts of interaction between real and virtual worlds!

  63. Kahni Poitier says:

    @46: Probably?

    @41; I love those ideas. I’d thought of the multiple streams depending on altitude, but not about the streams directly emanating from an object. That’s an AWESOME idea. I love it.

    MIDI might be okay, if everyone has the same sound libraries loaded. I can see both the good and bad in it. Want to load a new library? It’ll be lot more than the 10k everyone is claiming that the files are. And if your hardware can’t handle it? Well, you get 8-bit beeps and blips. It’s hard enough getting the video done properly across the multiple hardware configurations. DO NOT suggest they start mucking around with audio to try and do the same.

  64. Rocket Docherty says:

    @42: Sheehsh, lets ban Skype and any other VoIP Implementation…HEY…lets also ban shoutcast…
    You can’t blame the tools….only the tool that uses them for the wrong purpose.

    In general, streaming is a Legal Rats Nest. I am in Australia and I Pay license fees to our Local Royalties collector and Distributor (APRA). SO where do I stand? Can I only play Licensed Content to Australians?

    I think everyone is trying to create a storm in a teacup for whatever reason…

  65. Darth Juniper says:

    As someone who is enthusiastic to take a step into the SL live music performance arena, I welcome this.
    My lyrics are family suitable, I play original material so I don’t have to worry about breaching copyright, and until I’m really really good at playing in SL I don’t intend to charge anyone a bean to hear me.
    As for MIDI, yes it may have its problems but bravo for the idea of getting it started in SL, as we encounter problems we can work around them and learn ways to solve them. In response to the question of “does everyone have the same sound library” there is a general midi standard which is designed to provide a set of sounds that are similar across the board – if people work within those limits you are pretty much guaranteed a reasonable sound. The drain on a connection of a piece of MIDI music compared to a wav is so much smaller that it’s at least worth trying.
    The best thing about this mailing list is it gives us a big discussion arena where the musicians and those hosting them can share advice and experiences easily.

  66. Votslav Hax says:

    Since we’re talking of this…why not a thought of including those under 18 to be included…. maybe children of residents… a ‘family Week’ if you will… or not….! This is an oppurtunity to think out of the box..!

  67. Vigliacco Anonimo says:

    I’m of two minds about this. First, how nice that LL is interested in what, for me, is the second most important aspect of SL.

    Second, there go any illusions I had about flying under the radar or pretending that it was no different than playing records for my friends at home. Who will be the first that LL throws to the RIAA wolves?

  68. Argent Stonecutter says:

    One thing to note is that Apple’s MIDI support in Quicktime is better than most soundcards, and SL already uses the Quicktime libraries for normal streaming… so on Windows and Mac that could be used for people who don’t have good soundcard MIDI. For Linux? There seems to have been a veritavble explosion of audio software for Linux in the past few years, so surely there’s some good open source MIDI softsynths out there.

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  70. Matthew Dowd says:

    @48 – about 10 years ago, I’d have agreed with you.

    However, for the last few years even $50 bargain basement motherboards have pretty decent wavetable MIDI synthesis – and purely software synthesis is pretty advanced these days too.

    Matthew

  71. Montana Corleone says:

    @31/32 Lina Pussycat

    I don’t know where you get your ideas on copyright from, but they are wrong lol. Copyright has never ever been about protecting the consumer, but protecting the rights of the artist ie the creator. Not redundant at all. It’s how musicisans and authors make their living. People like the RIAA and PPP in the UK collect the royalties on behalf of the artists. You must also be clear, that owning a track, does not give you rights to broadcast it or play it in public at all. For that you need a separate broadcast or public performance license, whether you are doing it from your back garden, a public place, or the internet.

    Don’t get me wrong, what the RIAA are attempting to do and the PPP have already done in the UK to prvent streaming by charging stupidly high royalties will backfire in the end. You cannot now get most music streams from the UK if you live outside the UK. As an expat Brit living in France, this means I no longer hear new bands or music, and thus do not buy them from places like iTunes. Their, and the artists’ loss. Now, I buy CDs direct from live musicians. Eevn so, I can’t stream them without getting a license from the artist.

  72. Lina Pussycat says:

    @43 the contract conditions of the refusal to play at SLCC had nothing to do with LL in fact they had to do with FlipperPA and the people organizing SLCC which has no affiliation with Linden Labs. Linden labs does show up with members at these conventions but a non profit is the one organizing the event hence the contract issues. This changed however and the contract was rereleased with help from the musical community but again if you think that is LL’s fault then yeah….you need to get some facts straight there….

    There is a vast diff between a Non profit that other SL’ers own and Linden Labs in this aspect LL didnt botch up there Jennyfur and FlipperPA did and they acknowledged it and worked with the community to fix it so pointing it out as a flaw on LL’s part seems a bit redundant no?

  73. Lina Pussycat says:

    @53 actually the original concept of copyright was infact to protect the cosumers rights etc. Fair Use Policies etc as to what they were abound by. Its in there itself and copyright was worked into being able to be a backbone for the musical creators etc which also became a vastly abused system by people like the RIAA…. Do you have an idea what an artist actually makes off a CD sale or if their song is played? Little to nothing as the RIAA takes most of this money for themselves… Most money artist make are from touring and ticket sales not music being played on radio or the like.

    Copyright now adays is as you say it what im talking aobut is the original concept of what it was about when it first came out and before it was abused it was both about protecting the works but applying fair use for using the works. The fair use was abused and scrutinized and what we are allowed to do under fair use these days is deplorable in comparison to the consumers original rights as to fair use of a copyrighted material.

    What the RIAA is doing is trying to botch out internet radio in its current form so clear channel can grab it up and so we end up with these screwed up “Pop” artists (yeah most people dont think the RIAA are that evil but really why charge exhorberant fees) Streaming radio is actually looser inside the U.K etc then it is in the U.S at the moment =/ as well…. The problematic things with copyright i bring up are fair use which alot of fair use rights have been stripped away from the consumer.

    The RIAA racked up the fees to internet streaming to the point were people are actually not able to even make revenue off of their streams because the fees are rediculous atm it’d be cheaper for me to run an actual radio station then it would be to stream online music which is a bit absurd. Not to mention its absurd that 5 companies can try and monopolize the music industry in its entirity…. What i find funny is they ok’ed that rate hike but when sirius and the other sattelite radio provider wanted to merge that was a no no under a court because “it limits consumer choice” but the RIAA trying to squash other people is perfectly acceptable.

    Copyright isnt as clear cut as you’d like to think is what im getting at Montana there are fair use laws etc which were designed to protect consumers when things are used a certain way. Rebroadcasting music while it does have a liscensing fee shouldnt be impossible for someone to obtain without almost putting themselves in debt. That is an abuse of copyright power there…

  74. Chronic Skronski says:

    This mention of using MIDI to trigger soundfonts on the client computer is giving me shivers. It’s like a record store clerk saying, “Sorry, we’re all out of that CD. But here… take this sheet music home and play it on your toy piano with your fists. It’s a viable alternative.”

    The music mailing list is a great idea. I am lurking for now. ๐Ÿ™‚

  75. Argent Stonecutter says:

    MIDI and streams serve completely different purposes, I’m not proposing MIDI as an alternative to streams… nobody’s trying to sell you sheet music at a record store. The thing is, most popular music before the development of mechanical reproduction WAS written for amateurs (in the original sense of music lovers) to play from scores. And even early mechanical reproduction technologies like player pianos were less capable than even the cheapest soundcards. Now… imagine going to H&H to buy a score and getting a choice between an FM radio or a Hallmark greeting card with a 10 second soundclip on it?

    Let’s expand the capabilities of second life in ALL directions.

  76. Lillie Yifu says:

    The Open Letter went nowhere because it had stupid solutions, and was designed to promote the interests of a small section of the user base, and not the broad majority of users. It was a play by a few people for their own interests, it died because they never had the political wit to expand beyond persuing their narrow interests.

  77. Roy Blanchard says:

    How about LL pay the royalties for a selection of streams that would be available for us to use? let’s say I want to stream a reggae stream on my land… I pay $X L a day/week/month to LL and they pay the music industry.

  78. Lina Pussycat says:

    @58 It got alot of signatures etc but it wasnt really about narrow interests it was just a bit unrealistic to expect them to completely halt production and think that all the devs would be bug fixers…

  79. Vivienne Puff says:

    Support for AAC+V2 streaming would be nice. It will mean higher quality music for much less bitrate and overall a better Second Life experience (in theory anyway).

    More live performances would be awesome too ๐Ÿ™‚

  80. LaeMi Qian says:

    Re: Midi.

    SL clients could contain a standardised set of sound fonts which it uses with MIDI data.

    Better still, have of 256 possible sound fonts (say), 0-127 are built-ins and 128-255 are WAV snippets bundled in with the midi data (sorta’ like the old Amiga Tracker/MOD files but with an option for REALLY small files by only using the built-ins).

  81. Hey all! I’m on the list and have more info there, but as far as streaming music goes, I think the answer is to focus on getting Creative Commons licensed music into the mainstream thinking on SL. My company, Splicemusic.com, is aiming to do just that. RIght now, you can go there and create your own CC music, but in the future, we plan to have a streaming station full of ‘safe’ music that you can use on your estates. Technically speaking, you can’t really play things from your personal music library for a crowd in SL (like so many of the ‘DJs’ do here) without paying royalties to organizations like ASCAP. It’s not an SL rule – it’s a law. ๐Ÿ™‚ So, why not find a system that works for everyone? Artists can create their own music and license it for use in SL, their fans can enjoy them in SL and then, not only can they listen to the music, they can come to the Splice page and interact with it, adding parts and remixing it. It’s free! We love free! I welcome all feedback about this. Look me up in world if you have ideas or want to collaborate. I can’t wait to hear from you!

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  83. Doc Nolan says:

    This entire discussion makes me realize that simply buying a CD from amazon, sticking it into a slot on my CD player, and LISTENING is way easier. Why is it that EVERYTHING involving computers seems to make easy stuff complicated, time consuming, and require both a programmer and a lawyer: including listening to a simply assembly of pleasingly assembled tones? Only folks who enjoy solving Rubic’s Cubes could possibly enjoy the ‘challenges’ (headaches?) involved… So glad I’m not really ‘contributing’ to this conversation, i.e. making it even more mind-numbing…

  84. Chronic Skronski says:

    @60
    SL clients could contain a standardised set of sound fonts which it uses with MIDI data.

    There are so few circumstances where this could be used that much time would be wasted developing this feature. For the most part, it would be still like a musician passing out ukuleles for the listener to play at home instead of hearing a true representation of his/her work. Even if there was a standard and every client sounded the same, it would still sound like much less than what the musician envisioned. If the musician is anything but one who plays loops and sequences, the idea is right out. There is absolutely no way that a guitar can be replicated through MIDI, even with the best synths and soundfonts. and what about singers? MIDI *definitely* can’t do this. I can’t think of a single musician I know in SL who would let his or her music be sullied like this. Would Shakespeare have wanted his works to be read in a Mickey Mouse voice, even if everyone read them in the same Mickey Mouse voice? MIDI just does not make sense in this use. Take it from someone who has been using MIDI implementation for over two decades.

  85. Argent Stonecutter says:

    “There is absolutely no way that a guitar can be replicated through MIDI, even with the best synths and soundfonts. and what about singers?”

    Or violins, either, but so what? Most people will have Apple’s instruments, most of the rest will have similar quality libraries, and most MIDI music isn’t guitar or violin or vocal, it’s keyboard.

    “Would Shakespeare have wanted his works to be read in a Mickey Mouse voice?”

    Probably not, but he still published in a format that made it inevitable that someone would read it that way. It was god enough for Shakespeare and Mozart and Gilbert and Sullivan and Bach and Joplin.

    “MIDI just does not make sense in this use.”

    What use? There’s dozens of different ways to improve music in Second Life. Not all of them involve singers and guitarists and music streams. Some involve ragtime and fugues, pianos and harpsichords and organs and synthesizers. Take it from someone whose poor hand-eye coordination has limited him to scores and sequencers for over two decades. ๐Ÿ™‚

  86. the list is great..
    can I make a reminder here, instead of on the list?
    Please if you reply to post cut out all the other post in the mailing it is getting difficult to follow the conversations.

    on midi, I know there are things that could be done similar to the playable instruments but I can’t stand midi sounds even the best fonts are old toy plastic/wood piano sounding to my ears.

    WB Chronic, sorry I missed your good morning show, will see you in world ๐Ÿ˜€

  87. thx for the list. Great idea to do something around the music is SL.
    What I’m missing is to get more than 60 people in a sim.
    This limitation excludes many people at our concerts who
    wanna see us.

  88. Ally Boyle says:

    Fluf ..I’m thinking the same ..can of worms for improve music in SL to pay for Music in sl Long live Woodstock spirit ..everything crossed to kept music free

  89. So, has anyone actually posted to the list successfully after joining? It keeps holding all of my posts as a non-memeber even though I subscribed from the same address I posted from.

  90. Chronic Skronski says:

    I got a post or two in, but I have since unsubscribed after a flood of email, and one too many ignorant post claiming that DJs are musicians. It’s chaos, and a very outdated way of holding any sort of conversation. Slimmie made a forum, I signed up there – hopefully others will follow suit.

  91. Oh, great, so more fragmentation ensues instead of having one place to discuss things in a productive manner with direct Linden involvement. Believe me, it was no fun slogging through all the backlog from the weekend since it degenerated quickly without much guidance which generated a lot of heat but not light. Now that I managed to get in I plan to work with whoever is still there to try and get something productive done. I will not be joining yet another blog (we already had several) we need a direct discussion conduit, which LL kindly provided. Now lets try and play nice and get something done.

  92. Chronic Skronski says:

    Well, LL should have added it to their official forums then. The mailing list turned into just another pile of blog comments. Sure, there is fragmentation – but I would much prefer joining a discussion I can keep track of and that does not spam my email with posts from non-musicians telling musicians what they should be doing. It was a good idea until the… hell, no it wasn’t. A forum is FAR more logical.

  93. The LL forums are all but dead, and LL interaction on them IS dead – the LL blog is the only place left for what you’re seeking. RSS is far from bullet-proof and you /can/ filter email.

  94. Lina Pussycat says:

    @67 Alot of DJ’s are musicians or music producers as well as being Dj’s a live mixing dj is considered a live musician so its more ignorant of you to think that DJ’s arnt musicians just because they may not play the type of music you do or play the music directly And pardon but alot of “live” things that people claim to be live are in fact prerecorded shows directly made for SL. I’ve seen this numerous times as well as people singing covers etc blocking out vocals on certain songs..

    There are diff types of live music DJ’s are by trade musicians just not in the traditional sense of sitting there and playing an instrument. Yes there are some internet radio dj’s which alot of the time they playlist tracks but a DJ itself is a musician there are varying degrees of dj’s so at least get that straight. A playlist DJ is not a musician in a traditional sense but is in fact still a live performer. A music producer DJ’ing/Playlisting their own tracks is a musician. A DJ Live mixing vinyl doing track cuts and remixes and mashups is a musician.

    And all of them are considered to be live musicians/performer. There is more to a performance of a DJ then simply playing songs. There is interaction with a crowd being able to work it and many other things that go along with being a live performer that many people that take the role “live musician” or “musician” seem to be snobby about and overlook just because they dont want to tie them into the same pool but im afraid to say your all in it together.

    Saying a DJ isnt a live performer/musician is a more ignorant statement then claiming they are not. In fact the very person (Slim Warrior) is an Electronic/Ambient producer who has done festivals and the like what she does would be considered DJ’ing when put to SL and in fact the festival i know she was at was a DJ festival/Electronic music festival. So are you in fact turning around and then claiming that she isnt a live musician because to me that is even if the tracks may be prerecorded for a show.

    Electronica is hard to do 100% live lets face it thats why alot of them operate the way they do so really just get over yourself. Just because you dont think a DJ constitutes a live performer/musician doesnt make it so. You have to look at the whole picture there. Electronic music has become alot more popular and is quite big in SL ousting those people as live performers is a bit daft as they make up the majority of the live music scene.

    A club’s DJ only lists under Nightlife/Entertainment because of the simple fact the venue/event isnt setup as something that is live but i assure you i could easily list alot of the DJ’s that work for me under live music as they mix live and some produce their own tracks…

    As far as ways to really improve the music scene in SL there are ways. But at the same time some of these ways involve the artists sucking it up and looking at themselves and doing things for the Music rather then to make money or “cover themselves” which when i think about it what are their costs directly? I mean are they in a studio session where they are renting time being unable to interact with their crowd etc. And if they arnt are they going out and renting equipment specifically for an SL show.

    And if they have the equipment needed before hand what costs other then time? At republik we have had live performers. Montage (underground Electro Punk band from Brazil) And Galaxy Girl. No word of pay came up to them they never asked because our venue does it for the music not money. The key factor is publicity and getting your name out there for both the club and the live performer. Not all clubs are made of money and some artists seem to think that some people have this mass expendable income. (which some places do but alot of us dont)

    It can be mutually beneficial to both parties if a performer shows up. If you say have a CD you sell and people like the music plug the site on banners or decorate certain ways etc there are ways to earn income from these events and get your name out there without having to charge the venue owners of places who are already quite often paying alot so as it is. Plugging events on the main page and the sl login would be good listed under the live performance category….. Making sure to randomize it so not one list of events takes up the entire screen….

    For artists there are alot of publicity mediums out there available for free as well and if all else fails word of mouth is still a powerful tool…

  95. concerned says:

    @35 fluf i afree in the most about your postand this isnt directected at you there are certain posts that end up in every blog and no matter what is blogged its always the same posts from same people,yes sl needs a lot of sorting and as i said im first to tell them but this isnt a new feature coming this is a post for ideas how to make sl a more viable music platform and if that would bring in bands id rather hear these ideas,then if something unreasonable is proposed by the lindens i will voice concerns,I do understand everyones fears though as yeah over the past year we have lost our voices and only ever get an assurance on the blogs that main priority etc is us.

  96. @61 “It’s a law” ! Very big problem ! Which law ? US law ? GB law ? France law ? For instance, a musician who plays in USA has to pay a license… in France, it’s the venue owner who have to pay the license ! And in SL, who has to pay a license for music played from France ? and to whom ? Laws…

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  98. JackJack Oh says:

    [OT] can somebody explain to a Basic Account why i’m blocked by the Risk Api? Documentation on risk api are really smoky and unattendible, my attemp to contact LL took me nowhere, I just need to know why i had been blocked and how to get out from it…

  99. Pingback: Second Life Music Development Mailing List « Dizzy Banjo

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