Mainland supply rates for early September 2007

Further to the previous post announcing the rate of mainland supply, our rate from 1st September until 14th September will be slightly reduced, down to no more than 8 regions per day from 10 per day currently. In addition, there will likely be smaller parcels appearing for auction as we recycle mainland back into circulation.

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124 Responses to Mainland supply rates for early September 2007

  1. Dorian Cao says:

    Just curios, how does mainland get recycled? Is it just the land that has been abandoned, or it is the ‘protected’ land being reconfigured?

  2. Arwid Allen says:


    Good, Price and Value of Land is depending of demand. But I think otherside, it is slowly time that all regions have rules how to build. Many regions look not like good.

    Arwid Allen

  3. Georg Runo says:

    Question is: Is there a chance for someone not with that money or time as ACS to get hold of land? Tried so often I gave up.

  4. Buster McNutt says:

    I love land.

    If you don’t, you must be doing it wrong…

  5. Can someone tell me where all the abandoned land has been going for the last 8 months? I know people that have left and their land never sold and was never reclaimed, so how can abandoned land be suddenly put up for sale by someone when it was never in the auction or was ever sold to the new person now selling it. How did that person claim that land?
    At the end of Dec 06 there used to be loads and loads of parcels in the auction every day. Seldom see even one in the auction nowadays.
    Really, I would like to Know, IM me inworld………

  6. Max Mustermaen says:

    I have land with a dubious sim owner.


    I would not know, what I can do then against it…

    That is Second Life 2007

  7. JS says:

    So let me get this straight, you push the cost of land street value below what you sell it for wholesale. you have to go through well over 1000 listings before you hit land that is being sold at cost and that’s just for mainland. On top of that the mainland sims now cost less than privet sims some by a few hundred $$s, and the monthly tier is less. You have stunted the growth of all privet sim owners who do a ton of work to get where they are and offer nothing to compensate.
    Are the 45,000 plots of land for sale not enough selection for people looking for land? In doing all these releases you have made thousands of peoples land investments in second life worthless, do you have a plan to stop doing this to your current customers? Are you going to level the playing field or manipulate the land market again to make peoples investments at least worth what they paid for it? I think once people start to realize that what they are paying wholesale is worthless than what people are paying on the street (so to speak) the value of land will plummet even faster than it already has.
    My Question to you Jack, is when are you going to stop de-valuating your current customers land investments in favor of new players who are poor and cater to the people who have dumped tens of thousands into Second Life?

  8. Vanessa Sakai says:

    In the Dalarna sim there is a group that is owned by nobody and has no members (since March), but it owns 4096m2 divided into 5 lots. When are the Lindens going to reclaim and auction that land? It is full of junk.

  9. Vincent Nacon says:

    @4 land can’t be truly abandoned. They’d have to pay the monthly fee, if failed to pay on time, they lose those lands.

    If youre seeing a land that was abandoned but still there… it means the owner is still paying for it from OUTSIDE of SL.

  10. Vincent Nacon says:

    @6 Go read the law in San Francisco about gambling before you think you can crack your mouth at LL. (idiot)

  11. Sarah Nerd says:

    Can’t thank You enough for helping us all out by giving us fair warning of whats to come in the land market. You Rock Jack!

  12. Vanessa Sakai says:

    @8 If the account is closed they can’t be paying. Also who is paying for a group with no member?

  13. Stoo Straaf says:

    I own six private regions. If I sell all the land in a region then I need to make at least L$7.25 per sqm just to break even. In the current climate that is very hard to do.

    Of course as a private sim owner I put a lot of effort into terraforming and offering added value in the form of personal support and events for my residents, which does help a little. But it is still hard to convince someone to pay around L$10 per sqm when there is so much mainland being released every day.

    I do wish you’d slow down the release of new mainland so we sim owners have a chance to make some money from our investments. I fear that you’ll get a lot of people deserting private sims if they can’t make them pay.

  14. Cattie Rosca says:

    I’m new to the land owning element of SL, so bear with me. This whole sense of property and service being devalued in favor of the new customers, to the detriment of the long time, deeply loyal and invested SL residents/customers is a major dejavu. Can you say AOL?
    How many times did those of us who had been with them from day one feel the frustration of seeing the store being given away to get new customers, while we were stuck at the same rates and service levels? And what happened there? I think there are damn few people actually paying for AOL anymore… and the product suffers.

    SL is like a living, breathing thing, and if Linden Labs doesn’t treat the members who have co-created this microcosm well the relationship can not remain symbiotic.

    Dead, empty sims, everywhere I wander. And as Tolkien said “Not all who wander are lost.”

  15. Mercia McMahon says:

    Dorian, its Abandoned Land (probably as Vincent says non-payment of tier), Bimbo for a long time LLs were only auctioning new sims then 2-3 weeks ago about 12 abandoned parcels went on sale (I bought one for a group). Vanessa/Vincent, once a group has less than 3 members for I think its 72 hours it is closed, and its assets go to LL, including land. That does not necessarily mean that the LLs are prompt at setting it to Gov Linden. They have got better in recent weeks at tackling junk on abandoned land, because a lot of the junk is wagering machines.

  16. MrLunk voom says:

    Bring new land to 2 a day and well talk 😉

  17. FallinMy Webb says:

    @ 4

    @ 5 “you have to go through well over 1000 listings before you hit land that is being sold at cost ”

    You finding a plethora of land being sold at cost is never going to happen. People dont invest 2 grand into a sim so they can break even.

    “You have stunted the growth of all privet sim owners who do a ton of work to get where they are”

    The cost of mainland going back down to a reasonable price isnt a bad thing unless you were one of the land barons who jacked prices up close to 300% and, as a result of those over inflated prices, started paying way more for land than it was worth and are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of land thats worth maybe 1/2-3/4 of what they paid. I rent an island and pay nearly double what I was paying in tier for a sim on the mainland. My SL and my Business on a private sim has not suffered in the least from the playing field once again being leveled…even when I’m paying 400US a month to rent rather than buy!

    @ Jack & LLs

    Keep up the good work…theres still much room for improvement, but ya’ll have been much more transparent and open about whats going on which is a little encouraging for the future of SL. Thank you!

  18. The Todd says:

    There’s still good reason to “buy” private land instead of mainland — covenants. I got tired of having my mainland plots surrounded by ads and spinning for sale signs and other stuff, so I took a loss just to move to a private estate.

  19. Personally I think they are Breaking the pravicy act… What about OUR RIGHTS TO PRIVACY???
    Creativity: Second Life provides near unlimited freedom to its Residents. This world really is whatever you make it, and your experience is what you want out of it. If you want to hang out with your friends in a garden or nightclub, you can. If you want to go shopping or fight dragons, you can. If you want to start a business, create a game or build a skyscraper you can. It’s up to you. Going against the very consept of what SL started out. They are going to be cutting their nose off to spite their face is all they are going to end up doing. Seen this happen too many times with games that started out being great… then they start changing the rules & gimping the players to where they end up leaving & the game dies… Then WHO will they have to make money off of ??: you think the big wigs is going to patrinize other business they are in compition with ?? I don’t think so !
    I undertand sl wanting to portecting them self
    and the childen that come here as well , time for sl to make the parent take some of the reponsaible for the action of their children . like making sure they stay in the teen gide
    The Following is taken directly from

    What is Second Life? Second Life is a 3-D virtual world entirely built and owned by its Residents. Since opening to the public in 2003, it has grown explosively and today is inhabited by a total of 9,168,792 Residents from around the globe. From the moment you enter the World you’ll discover a vast digital continent, teeming with people, entertainment, experiences and opportunity. Once you’ve explored a bit, perhaps you’ll find a perfect parcel of land to build your house or business. You’ll also be surrounded by the Creations of your fellow Residents. Because Residents retain the rights to their digital creations, they can buy, sell and trade with other Residents. The Marketplace currently supports millions of US dollars in monthly transactions. This commerce is handled with the in-world unit-of-trade, the Linden dollar, which can be converted to US dollars at several thriving online Linden Dollar exchanges.
    I for one Love second life I dont want to see it Die what about You ?!!! STAND FAST be counted .

  20. JS says:

    I think you did not understand, there are over 1000 plots of land being sold BELOW the wholesale cost.
    Land barons did NOT jack the price up 300%, the average they were making was about 12.5%, maybe check your numbers and know the market a little better before you start spouting off things you have no idea about.
    On the L$ sell rate a privet sim at cost is about 30k per 4096, the current market ava for land is around 22k per 4096. It’s less than what LL is selling mainland sims for wholesale and a ton less that privet sims cost.
    Also, just FYI, I have almost 20 sims and sell the land at cost, I think maybe you need a better understanding of the land market.

  21. Lane says:

    Open the land to third world countries, invent a system for the South & Central American * African users to veryfy account, allow them to buy some land and verify age, and you’ll suddenly find out that your main land has MORE paying customers, MORE decent spots in main LL Land, and LESS abbandoned areas and Ads Farms.

    This prejudics of LL really sucks.
    Always finding a way to restrict SL to rich countries users only.

    (And Im Euro, mind you. But they need a voice of solidarity too.)


  22. FallinMy Webb says:

    lol JS…I have a very clear understanding of the land business. I’m refering to the land prices jumping from a reasonable 6-9/sq m to 20-30/ sq m in less than a month….if you would have a better understanding of how to read you would see what I’m saying and not get your panties in a wad so quick.
    And if your selling/holding 20 sims at any given time and selling at the same price you purchased then you would be forking over nearly 4000US a month in land tier fees and if this is the case maybe its YOU are the one who needs a better understanding of the land market and business in general. I highly doubt your flipping your land at cost

  23. Domneth says:


    I could justify the cost of my private estates to people, even with the cost of the monthly fee being higher – it was still worth it. However, now with so much mainland available, and at a lower tier cost, it’s near impossible to get people into my sims. I have to agree with you on this, and I’ve been wondering why more private sim owners haven’t had anything to say.
    I say raise the monthly tier of mainland to be on par with private sims, since mainland is all class 5 sims now as well. Maybe then the field will be level for awhile again.

  24. CW says:

    I am having no problem selling my estate land at 8000L per 1024.

    @14 To break even on a sim you only have to sell for 29000, and with the first month free it could be even lower.

    I welcome the lower mainland prices as it is essential to attract new buyers to the market, and get more people interested in owning land on an estate that is managed and zoned.

  25. Rinaldo Debevec says:

    I’m excited that soon a lot of abandoned mainland parcels will be auctioned. This should be a great buying opportunity. I have 2 private island sims but only about 3000 sqm of mainland prop in 2 parcels. Private sims are great because I have so much control over them! But I also like mainland prop, it’s a completely different type of land use. So I’m looking forward to browsing through the auctions and bidding on these “recycled” props. I’m sure I’ll have fun buying and using and re-selling a few of these abandoned parcels. May not make a profit on it .. but won’t lose much either 🙂

  26. Recent Land Buyer says:

    I’ve been in SL for almost a year, and whenever I look at land sales they are all over the place. Some lands are dirt cheap and total crap. Some lands are dirt cheap but have a high tier, some lands are just plain over priced, some lands are set for a quick sale. I don’t know enough about the land market, but it seems that there are always over priced and under priced lots out there. It all depends on who is seling and why.

    Oh and @ 17 .. just because he sells the land at cost, doesn’t mean the people he sells the land to don’t pay tier. It is very easy to sell at cost, it just means you don’t make a huge profit off of your land.

  27. JS says:

    ok FallinMy Webb, try to sort your land search by price and start with the lowest first, have fun getting to anything that’s 20L$/sqm LOL it may take you a few hours. People who list high like that are not land barons and 99% of the time it sits there for months at that price until they figure out it’s not worth anything close to that. Once in a while someone might pick it up if there’s something special about it but for the most part, no. The highest price on the low end was about L$12/sqm and that was almost a year ago, all the people who bought than have now lost a ton of money, in fact people who bought 2 months ago have lost money.
    I pay over $4k USD a month and I have a very good understanding of how things work in the land market and make my little profit a month, the case here is that people like me have their business stunted because the market prices is below what I’m paying for a sim.

    In a healthy market 8-10/sqm is right on the mark for balance, the ONLY way to truly keep that balance and have it at 6-7/sqm is for LL to lower what they charge for land on mainland and privet sims.

  28. JS says:

    Oh, Lane I want you to do a little experiment to test the market over there. Goto a international trading site like Alibaba and make some business contacts in Africa. Buy a couple things, I’d suggest small things, and when you are done you can come back and answer your own question ^_^.

  29. Elizabeth Winnfield says:

    8 per day is still too many. There is a huge glut of land. This effects both private and mainland SIM developers and parcel owners equally as the inworld prices are substantially below the wholesale purchase price. The only people who benefit from a falling land market are those who do not own any land – even little 512k plots.

    ..but then even those who do not own land but wish to buy it are ultimately effected, because every dollar lost in a land trade is a dollar not spent on stuff in-game purcahsed from content makers, and the bad press attracted to the land / businees problems in SL reduce the rep of SL as a business/lifestyle alternative – all of which discourages players with money from joining or staying.

    8 per day is too much. JS is entirely correct.

  30. There are too many mainlands now that aren’t being sold. LL wants to drive the land prices all down to 12L$ per meter so people who don’t have land & go to prem. membership. Also LL wants everyone to up their land tiers. Its pretty sad when you cant sell land at 10L$ per meter anymore.

    LL don’t care about us all they are doing is making more ways to stuff their pockets with $$$$$

  31. FallinMy Webb says:

    “ok FallinMy Webb, try to sort your land search by price and start with the lowest first, have fun getting to anything that’s 20L$/sqm LOL it may take you a few hours”

    You mean after you get past the private estates that are listed for 1L-6L and come with covenants?

    “People who list high like that are not land barons and 99% of the time it sits there for months at that price until they figure out it’s not worth anything close to that”

    Plenty of big names,including the biggest land baron of them all Anshe, were selling many parcels on the mainland at 20+ per sq m for a good while. When LLs raised tier and initial costs for private estates mainland was selling for 6 on the low end and 12/sq m on the high end. Me and my wife immediately purchased close to half a sim mainland @ 10/sq m because I had a feeling that land barons and others looking to make a quick buck were going to do exactly what they did, jack prices up to outrageous levels under the pretense that it was neccesary to keep up with increasing overhead. Within a week I couldnt find a parcel within our sim or any neighboring sim for less than 20/sq m. I also saw a majority of those parcels change hands at those prices.

    And turning a profit every month isnt selling at cost so you must be doing something right:)

  32. Deltango Vale says:

    I am increasingly of the opinion that LL is managed by engineers with absolutely no knowledge of economics, politics or business.

    From October 2006 to January 2007, when thousands of new residents were pouring into SL, new land was created at an appallingly slow rate. Limited supply and increasing demand drove up land prices accordingly. Meanwhile, LL was letting in thousands of anonymous, unverified residents (with the inevitable consequence of a media spotlight on abuse). Then, LL panics and dumps land on the market and sets up a ridiculous age-verification system. Then they ban gambling and issue dire warnings about sex. Turmoil.

    The residents are screaming blue murder as the grid remains unstable and these new measures ruin the SL experience for just about everyone. Now, LL announces a cutback on new land in reaction to the massive losses suffered by landowners – PAYING residents who must now prove they are over 18 while for over a year, anonymous, 15-year-old griefers could fly about for free.

    Obviously, there needs to be a method of supplying new land in line with population growth. Obviously, the anonymous accounts should have been terminated in January 2007. Obviously, the grid needed proactive design work to enable it to handle the increasing load.

    LL needs to hire competent strategists before it loses control of its own creation.

  33. Tony says:

    You need to slow it down further, prices are in for another tumble with id verification.

  34. JS says:

    FallinMy Webb,
    In the land search window select the “mainland” option so you don’t see the privet estate plots for sale.
    I sell at my cost and if market prices go above my cost I think that’s great because I will sell even faster and have no need to raise my prices. I’m not going to go over how I make my profit but it’s not off the land sales. I’ll show you tho in game if you want 🙂

  35. Darien Caldwell says:

    I really don’t understand people who talk as if a covenant was bad thing. Covenants are there to protect the resident’s investment. They prevent you logging in one day to find an ad farm or a club with 40 avs sitting next to your house. Renting land in any sim that doesn’t have a covenant is a game of russian roulette.

  36. Bovar Bellow says:

    The land barons inflated the price by running up the auctions, we did not. Linden needs to release at LEAST 20-30 sims per day to get it down where it belongs. There are 9 million of us and 5-10 greedy land barons running up the prices. Now whats wrong with this picture ?

  37. JS says:

    Deltango Vale, the age verification thing is like going into an AOL chat room And havening your RL age name country/state in your public profile (I mean really all someone would have to do is google search and get your address/phone), there are about a million websites that have inappropriate things and no age verification and no one is screaming about that, parents should be responsible for watching their children not LL.

  38. Georg Runo says:

    I wonder HOW LL will manage to keep up with the security of these data collected from the users. A good source for CIA and FBI – or worse – some criminal minded hackers.

  39. Georg Runo says:

    @28: You’re so right. It becomes critical, when someone third party gets hold of your data.
    ABSOLUTELY right about that children-thing. BUT: not all parents care – some don’t even know. :((

  40. Deltango Vale says:

    I am completely OPPOSED to the new age-verification scheme. It is the ‘Nopey’ (No Payment Information on File) accounts that should have been terminated in January 2007.

  41. FallinMy Webb says:

    Lol…I dont even know your name:p
    You do have a more compelling argument than most who are just looking for a reason to call names and type in all caps…I understand where your coming from on the wholesale prices vs market value but my opinion still varies a bit.

    Anyways agreeing to disagree is more fun than going back and forth. If your way of turning a profit involves advertising gimme a shout in game:)

    @ 27

    I dont neccesarily think covenants are bad things. Many people do prefer to pay more monthly to live on the mainland for thier own peace of mind however. Not having abandoned land covered with lag reaping junk is nice…as well as knowing a giant graphic image or ad farm isnt going to pop up all around you is nice:)

  42. Vanessa Sakai says:

    They are not getting better at cleaning up land, at least in Dalarna. There is a wagering object that shouts get your bets in every 15 minutes.

  43. Christian Colville says:

    I was looking at buying mainland sims for resale a while back when land prices had not tumbled and it simply didn’t make sense financially then, I’m sure it makes less sense now. I find it extraordinary that LL can sell any mainland sims at auction right now unless its to developers who have a project that needs a whole sim. If people didn’t buy LL wouldn’t sell. It must be very tempting for them though: they make money on the auction and then make tier on the new land. Limitation of sales means they are starting to realise the problems.

    Looking at the stats over a while I have noticed the log-ins in the past 60 days figure falling recently, whereas the concurrency seems to be edging up. I think that the number of committed users has probably been increasing while the number of new and churn-through users has been dropping off. This has meant for a while that the land buying population has been increasing slightly but I suspect now it will be static or falling back. I think LL could stop selling sims now and the land market would given a bit of time fall further.

    I agree with @24, LL are somehow managing to do everything wrong in terms of anyone wanting to run an in-world business. They have banned the gambling areas, simultaneously damaging the clubs that were making a little income on Sploders, and destroyed the land market by releasing too much land. Although sculpties are nice they have made established content made with normal prims look second rate and in need of redesigning with tools that are beyond most content creators. They are not providing the basic necessity for setting up a business: a stable infrastructure.

  44. Amanda Ascot says:

    I think one of the most curious things about all this is that Linden Lab has stated that they want to reduce land prices but they raised the low bid on new sims. I’m not quite sure how to resolve “more = less” unless it has something to do with “new math”, or maybe the U.S. Congress redefined the way basic arithmetic operators work. I think Linden Lab needs to seriously reconsider their business model, here.

    I agree with some other posters that there is a problem with the division between land costs on the mainland and for private sims. While some of this might be reflected in the additional investment that Linden Lab puts into each new island, I can’t justify the huge jump in sim prices however I try to wrap my brain about it.

    JS, I’d love to see how you make a profit on land that you’re selling at your cost. The problem is that “JS” isn’t a valid SL name so there’s no way to contact you in-world for a demonstration. 🙂

  45. Vanessa Sakai says:

    @10 Its less than two members not 3.

  46. ari blackthorne says:

    “Tony Says:
    August 29th, 2007 at 11:00 AM PDT
    You need to slow it down further, prices are in for another tumble with id verification.”

    So… in other, better words: it will be a buyer’s market.

  47. Hanna Ree says:

    I’m kind of laughing at the responses here. Whatever the rate LL adds to main land, if it sells, then someone felt they had reason to plunk down real $ and buy it. If LL offers it and the glut of land is so high that no one buys it, then it won’t get sold. ECON 101.

    Yep, there are a lot of folks that purchased only to see their investment go into the tank. This is just like 1st life where you by in the market and take your chances if value of what you purchased will prove out to be smart or foolish. When prices were way up, it was a time to sell and not buy. There was no way to sustain that and crying that LL is responsible for losses in laughable. That’s like crying about paying too much on EBay because you bid the price up too high.

    When I started in SL I purchased a modest main land plot of just over 2,000m2. Worst choice I ever made. A club pops in days later and a giant flower for the place next door. Took a bath to unload it and gladly gave it up. Now I pay the price for a nice place. I rent a 1/8th of a sim in a residential only sim. Lag is low. The next door plots are well done I think in part because if you pay that much for a place, you take care of it. The covenant is not overly restrictive and actually in my view helps protect my experiences as much as it does my landlady.

    Buying a main land sim is more like playing in the commodities market, the line between riches and going bankrupt is a very thin line.

  48. Athena Whizenhunt says:

    well, I have no doubt that mature land will be worth less now with age verification, hmm weren’t the people on this grid supposed to be 18 and over anyway? So how can I be liable for someone else breaking the law, and why do I have to put up with ID? Oh, I remember it was the europeans complaints that caused the ID thing to happen, imagine that. I have a feeling there will be a lot of abandonded land to be recycled soon, I bought mature land because I wanted to cater to adults, now it seems I will have to be chastised like a child in order to play. well , in this game I will begin turning in people on PG land for such things as adult language and marginal nudity, it’s gonna require age verification to change clothing in SL now-and the land sales seem to support something other than LL’s good business practices- wait a couple months and see what land devalues to after the ID is required- the worst thinbg is that Linden Labs may be constructing a legal format for future virtual worlds, which will become a web format. MY stand will always be- whether I approve or dissaprove of someone’s behavior is less important than a person’s right to do it- as much as 1 liberty or privacy is infringed upon is a disgrace-if I find a behavior unsuitable I don’t need to partake, I also don’t need to limit anothers enjoyment – I have an idea, in orde5r to make SL more harmonius why doesn’t linden require Jews to wear 6 pointed stars so there is no mistaking what religion they are, I’m sure that will help commerce and breed better social relations.

  49. Tony says:

    @35 if buyer’s aren’t buying at current rates they’re hardly likely to flock when it goes lower, tier fees aren’t dropping in price 😛

  50. First Ginko kills the economy, now your killing the land. Keep up the good work.

  51. Tmayla Rotaru says:

    FWIW – some of us aren’t looking for land for investment. Some of us are looking for a little piece of land they can experiment on, terraform and build on and keep for their own. But when I see the prices that go by day after day after day, I know that someone won’t be me because I can’t ‘sit’ online for hours and hours at a time watching prices go by that I can’t afford, being outbid time after time, etc.

    There is no room for ‘the little guy’ anymore. If you aren’t a big buyer, you’re nothing.

    It would be nice if some form of ‘First Land’ came back what only a person who had *never* bought land before could be a part of. But I’m the first to admit I can’t think of a way to do this that someone wouldn’t take advantage of.


  52. Terry Misfit says:

    I have no clue why everyone is surprised about this. Linden labs, has never cared about current customers. They took first land away and left allot of ppl paying for a worthless account. There is no value anymore in land period. I am not a land baron just a simple account holder who bought a few parcels to make some money off rentals. Now they are worth nothing. Angry yes i am, surprised never until the day any of us can compete with the land barons your thoughts opinions and this blog are just a way to vent end of story.

  53. Bill says:

    Bottom line is that SL control the supply; more supply lower price. They could supply for free to drive up demand and subs. Not difficult to understand why they would not want to see land price inflation in SL. They want content generation from as many as possible.

  54. WarKirby Magojiro says:

    Ignore these people. More land is good .

    I find those who make profit buying and selling land despicable. The majority are simply leeching off the economy, buying low, and selliung high.

    More, cheaper land, means more people can have a place to create their dream.

  55. Dougie Flosberg says:

    how can you play a game when they write the rules
    as it goes. affraid of what tommrow brings in sl.
    you can’t we are there lab rats when i came into this game last year land was at 3500 per 512 meters
    that was in dec. and the way they handled first land
    all the new players didnt get any. more linden lies….
    ll controls the market. they blow it bigtime
    you can see the numbers drop everyday……
    if there are 10 million residents in sl
    but there is only 25 to 40 thousand on at a time
    where is the other 9 million +
    im ready for my third life now

  56. JS says:

    WarKirby Magojiro,
    So.. buy low and sell lower or you’re despicable and a leach? let me know if you have anything for sale 😀

    Take a look at the statistics, LL released 18 million more sqm of land this month than last month but user to user sales were 15million sqm less than last month. Less people are buying land and creating their dream even with the great new low price.
    On top of that because of the L$/sqm being much lower than the cost of a privet island at wholesale price has caused privet estate sales to go down by 317 sims compared to last month (approx. 24,115,000 sqm less)
    As you can see from the numbers LL sold less land than they would have if they had not dumped all these sims out and stunted the market.

  57. Mike1 Shepherd says:

    I’m a newbie. So I can’t speak to the history of past mistakes that LL has made. What I do see here is a group of people who miss the point of this communication. LL is telling us what is going to happen for informational purposes. Aren’t we in effect shooting the messenger for giving us news. If they said nothing we’d have people complaining that they don’t tell us anything. Just my .02L worth.

  58. Armando Frangilli says:

    Well I personally think it’s a shame that SL isn’t a FREE market…meaning…quit manipulating the markets….get your hands off…let the markets regulate themselves…pure supply and demand…I know you love trying to play the benevolent gods…you’re blowing it…how can you inspire trust when you keep making these arbitrary decisions…which , in my opinion, are ruining what this game has the potential to mean socially..Give us the tools….Let US make the worlds…I was kind of hoping to find a cool place that would allow people to create whatever they wanted…and let me say this…because there’s good and bad in everything…and there’s plenty good with SL…and I’m hoping for the return of the original dream…I liked that SL the best! With much Love…Armando

  59. Gareee taov says:

    Drive the prices down, I say! Cheap land for all newcomers! Keep them in the game, and boost the economy with triple current players online at any given time!

  60. les says:

    Don’t you think it’s silly to base an economy on “land” and game tokens when both have no value except an arbitrary amount set by LL?

    What happens when a clone (like hipihi in beta) comes along and sets different arbitrary levels?


    No World Platform will use some backwards private companies game tokens as currency.



  61. Shippou Oud says:

    Responce to post #5. Devaluing land?! You seem not to know the history of SL too well. In the last year land prices have gone threw the roof, because of litterally millions of folks joining SL and wanting land. Now that the amount of land is surpasing demand, the prices fall. Now with the plight of 16M farms, values go down even more. Privet islands are more expensive because the owner has compleate controle of it, from the sun, to the +-100 taraforming limits, to the ground textures, to handiling abuse reports personally from the island.
    BTW when I first started in the land business, the low end (snow at the time) was going for $L3.5 a meter, and high end (+-40 taraforming) was going for $L20 a meter.

  62. Shippou Oud says:

    To add to my other post, I like cheep land, because I can develope projects, such as well designed malls, and clubs. Also when low end land was at $L3.5 per meter, Chung was the major land barron, selling land for $L12 per meter. She made a killing in 2005.
    Also at that time, mainland sims were $1,000 USD, and not a lot of them sold. Probly 3 or 4 a week.
    Now LL has become a big company. If someone leaves the game, so what. Someone else will replace them. (that is their thincking now.)
    LL even cut out all their special inworld services, and extras. I was mad that early 2006 all road construction stopped, and mid 2006 all railroad building stopped.
    Later on they cut out the inworld help, and killed funding for orginizations, and persons that taught basics to new players.
    This year LL broke their promice that they’d keep the origional Telehub/infohub locations protected, and sold the land.

    Sadly it seems like LL’s policy is “as long as someone owns the land, and pays tier, we are happy. Who cares about the users.”

    I personally use a competitor of SL for building, due to LL’s stupidly high tier cost. Activeworlds = $6 a month for unlimited land, and unlimited perminate objects ((this is not an ad, just making a price comparison)). In SL I’d have to pay about $240,000 USD a month for the space I take up in AW.

  63. sean says:

    Hey Lane, isn’t Brasil in South America? and how many people in Africa
    have computers w/broadband? You must be from Holland, smoking
    way too much weed.

  64. Anonymous says:

    Get rid of Hippiepay, camping, ad farms and all the other crap polluting our environment. And someone slap some sense into these ID10Ts that constantly “hog the blog” from others… It’s really sad some of you have to post 1/20th of the blog with your rants and raves. I rarely repost, and if I do; it’s for a good reason, not like some dumb script kiddie trying to create the last post saying “Last post; PIE” or “HAHAHAH, I got the last post”.I post once to ALLOW others to post (novel concept). Maybe one day you blog hogging script kiddies will need advice from a forum or blog, and some UNSCRUPULOUS heel will fill it to its capacity thus preventing you from seeing what you NEED to read 😉 (serves you right 😉

  65. kira worthington says:

    i have land that i have been tringtosellfor over about3 months and with all this new land opening up it has not sold i evne put the price downto less then what i orginal paid for it i wish sl would not open new land for a few months and only put out abandon land for sale

  66. modred petrov says:

    just wondering but do the lindens actually look at the map and see how much land is for sale already before opening up more? if there is already a surplus of something why produce more? land priceshave tanked lately because so much is out there. any lindens heard of supply and demand?how many bloody sims do they need open before years end? how much yellow blotches does there have to be before the lindens realize half the bloody world is for sale while they keep expanding it? guess they really don’t give a flip about the little guys who own land, as long as the big business/land barons keep buying from them they ignore us. nice way to take care of your regular joe customers. thanks lindens for showing us how much we really matter to you.

  67. Charles Montale says:

    I am in search of a type of Guru that can help me establish a start in land sales or rentals. Anyone intrested in helping, feel free to IM me in-game.

  68. Raymond Figtree says:

    For those of you championing cheaper land for the new resident, keep in mind that the purchase price is nothing in the long term compared with monthly tier.

    The unrelenting release of land hurts every long term resident who ever wants to sell his plot at near what he paid for it. Not seeing why continuing torrent of sims has to continue. Do the three people who are buying most of them really need more?

  69. Dekka Raymaker says:

    Sorry to post this here, but i have a problem understanding age verification and especially this section:

    “• What personal information will you store? Linden Lab will not store any specific, identifying information. Our verification provider will assess the consistency of the provided information and return a match code; at that point, a Resident becomes verified. The entire process takes less than two minutes, and will be available internationally. Our verification provider will only use information to provide a match code and the only information stored by Linden Lab will be whether or not there was a match.”

    If you don’t store specific indentifying information, what are you going to use to check the information I give for verifying, obviously someone somewhere has to check to see if the Passport number I give is true or false and that it is associated with my name, my real life name, for sure it’s not associated with my SL name. So thats givining personal information that nobody can check, because they don’t have the legal rights to hold that information anyway and then you don’t just pass that information on, you pass other information you promised would be confidential when I joined Second Life, i.e. my Real Life name.

    So please do I have the right to know what other information you will pass on?

    But I’m still confuse, now you have passed on my RL name and my passport number, if not further personal information to someone who isn’t suppose to able to verify this information in the first place?

  70. Tony says:

    “obviously someone somewhere has to check to see if the Passport number I give is true or false and that it is associated with my name, my real life name”

    Who says they can actually check these details now? However once you’ve provided that information, they may be able to check it at a later date as you’ve provided them voluntarily with that information.

    Passport numbers can’t be verified by just anybody, I think there may be a bit of a ruse going on here to placate people whose extra personal details can be checked. I’m not at all convinced that Integrity have the authority to check passport details from people all around the world, but if they have authority to check SSN’s, then Americans would be up in arms at having to provide extra proof of identity to other international residents.

    Back to land and Raymond Figtree is spot on. Tier fees are the bigger barrier to land ownership than the initial costs.

  71. Deltango Vale says:

    For what it’s worth, I tried the verification process. It didn’t work. Sigh.

  72. Brock Fitzgerald says:

    3 blog posts in 3 hours, 1 really controversial, 2 shortly after, not even timely. And the first time I post this, LL delete it. Anyone would think they couldn’t take criticism about their poor communication.

  73. Whack Oh says:

    I think you are missing the point on the land pricing etc. Phil Linden made a public statement this week at the SLCC that the biggest source of revenue for SL far and away is the Land sales and Tier fees. Lowering the price of land serves several purposes and in fact you could argue that the price of land was in a bubble due to the growth surge that we just experienced. Land *should* be lower than it was a couple of months ago.
    A lower land price enables everyone to have more fun, because as land owners know the more land you have the more you can do and build and the more fun you have! Just as important, is the fact that you become more integrated into the society. This integration is critical to our future, because it creates a ‘stickiness’ and will cause our society to grow. We have a problem with people coming to SL and leaving. Stickiness is the solution and that can come about in many ways, but owning your own space is powerful.
    LL makes their money on teir fees and land sales. The most powerful economic strategy for them therefore is to sell lots of land cheap and collect the tier fee annuity that is created. In RL and SL, land ownership is a risky proposition. No one guarantees land prices. While I understand that many land owners are upset, who complained when prices were rising? Just like RL, things go up and down. With another surge the prices could rise again, but it is in the interest of the future of SL for land to be affordable and owned by all. I’m surprised that LL did away with the First Land program, but in a bubble you can make decisions that make sense at the time but need to be re-evaluated down the road.
    Lower land prices will help the economy long term by giving LL more money to invest in the future, and by capturing the enthusiasm of many more residents who will own land and feel that they belong.

  74. Chaos Mohr says:

    What it comes down to is that every sim that is sold at auction is a guaranteed minimum of 195 USD a month in tier for LL. For those screaming at the supposed ‘Land Barons’ well if they don’t like it, they can buy the sims themselves and sell at cost – wait – don’t forget to figure in tier costs, not to mention time spent splitting up the land, keeping records etc. Sure, there are those who mark up land to ungodly prices, but it is a market driven economy, as long as people are buying, they will keep selling at that price.

    I personally don’t mind the price of land falling to a somewhat more affordable level for most people (although it sucks for all those people who thought they had a good investment when they bought their own personal plots a within the past months), but what I do take issue with is the new land is just downright UGLY. The textures are the worst I have seen – come on LL, take a look at some of the incredible textures people are using on private islands, look at how nice some of the older continent sims are – make something besides this horrible grey rock that only sells because it is so cheap – and then usually ends up ad cut to heck. What ever happened to land with character? Sure there are more waterfronts on Corsica, but even then, those beach textures are ugly compared to some previous ones. Please, if you are going to mass produce the land, take a bit more time with the templates to make something people would really like to own.

  75. PrettyPenny Pinion says:

    This blog update was a short, simple post about land supply for September.
    I must have missed the hidden age verification propaganda the off topic posters are commenting on. I don’t see how age verification posts apply to a post about land supply. Thank you for your opinions but they would be better placed in the proper blog post or forum.
    These blog updates are here to let us know what’s going on and not for the showdown of the century concerning what you do or don’t want.

    Like it says right at the bottom of the page (directly above the window you type into guys) “We value free expression. However, stuff that’s off-topic, abusive, or otherwise busts the rules will be removed without comment.”

    Let’s stay on topic, please.
    Thank you.

  76. Praetor Janus says:

    Dear Jack,

    “Glasnost” (transparency) is a Great Thing, Congrats 🙂

    8 SIMs a day is still absurd!

    SL is not “really” growing to “require” that. It’s too much!

    Oh BTW VERIFICATION was bliss 🙂

  77. Karen Palen says:

    I can’t think of a surer sign that the active SL population is imploding!

    I keep talking to people who’s only participation any more is to run 100+ “bots” for camping. Obviously 90%+ of them run invisibly to LL.

    Notice that the total economy has stalled for most of the year as well.

    Great time for a land grab?

    I don’t know, (a) no one really “needs” a place in SL and (b) LL CAN make lots more land at any time.

    Personally I am buying up all the RE I can in RL, but NONE in SL!

  78. RC Paderborn says:

    @12 fallinmyweb: “The cost of mainland going back down to a reasonable price isnt a bad thing unless you were one of the land barons who jacked prices up close to 300%”

    Or if you were like me, one of the thousands of SL residents that slowly bought land around their first land to get more PRIMS! I just dumped over 11,000m2 for L$5.86m2. I paid as much as L$23m2! Plus almost L$20,000 a month in tier fees to LL.

    A word of warning as well about group land. If you set your mainland to group and then later sell it all, LL will continue to charge you tier on land that you and group no longer own.

    You have to go to the group in question in world, and manually set your contribution to zero because even though the group owns no land and you own no land, that “contribution” counts for your tier.

    I only found out about this from one of LL’s billing support people. I found in the knowledgebase how to fix it, but LL is still going to nail me for an extra US$75 next month even though I sold the land a week before the start of THIS billing cycle.

    This same thing will kick your tier higher as well. Say you own 20,000m2 of mainland. Your tier is US$125 a month. You set it to group which means you’re contributing the tier for 20,000 to the group.

    Come back next month and decide that your group no longer needs to own the land. So you set it to sell to yourself for L$1.

    As far as LL is concerned, you do that and you now own 40,000m2 and your tier will be US$195 a month.

    This is because you now own the 20,000m2 plus the group contribution of 20,000m2.

    I can find no way around it because LL’s stated policy is that your tier is based on the peak amount of land you ‘owned’, even if it was just for a few seconds.

    Now that I’ve dumped my mainland and dropped two of my three accounts to BASIC. I’ll probably be dropping this one as well. After subtracting the L$300 a week of ‘free money’, I’m still paying US$5 a month for access to tech support.

  79. RC Paderborn says:

    BTW, Growth surge doesn’t really mean what it sounds like.

    Ten months ago, there were ALMOST 1.5 million residents on the books.
    Ten months ago, concurrency peaked at about 18,000
    Ten months ago, about one million US dollars changed hands in Second Life every day.

    As of right now, there are 9,181,559 total residents, an increase of 6X
    Concurrency peaks (i’ll be generous) at 45,000, an increase of 2.5X
    US$ spend in last 24 hours, one million and small change, an increase of 0X

    So SL had a flood of new residents, of which most seem to not be logging on very often and don’t seem to be spending any money.

    Sorry folks, the above (combined with land prices in the toilet) sounds like either an imploded economy or numbers games to fool the gullible, press or sponsors/stockholders.

  80. RC Paderborn says:

    @60 Whack Oh asked “While I understand that many land owners are upset, who complained when prices were rising?”

    I did as land around me soared from L$7,000 for 512m2 to L$12,000. There’s still a plot in Toowoomba that was a guy’s first land, that is still for sale for L$20,000 and it’s 512m2. That lot was right next to mine. The guy obviously left SL and paid for a year as LL hasn’t reclaimed it yet. It’s just a bare 512m2 first land lot with ugly plywood prims on it where the guy was learning how to build I guess.


    August is almost over, and we still don’t have any Metrics for July that I am aware of, did the metrics stop getting published? I have asked a couple times that the metrics include the retention rate of premium accounts so some of us business people could understand just how much of the SL economy is truly vital. Or how fast that vitality is bleeding off, But now we can’t even make a round about guess based on the data in the Metrics. As you release less land how will we know if there is a corresponding rise or drop in land value? Part of being transparent is providing data like that to those of us who are trying to plan the course of our businesses.

  82. Elizabeth Winnfield says:

    @65 – This is an interesting observation. If the daily turnover is the same as it was a year ago, and average land prices are still 20% to 30% higher than they were then, even assuming the volume of land turning over has not increased (although I suspect it has substantially increased) then the money spend inworld on content built by residents has in fact collapsed by at least 20% to 30% on a year ago. If that happened in a RL economy we would be saying we had a depression. Yes, I know it requires 3 consecutive quarters down turn for a RL recession before any one jumps on me, but a 20 – 30% down turn in cash flow is a death spiral for a RL economy.

    Of course, this is not an RL economy and has the advantage of continued imigration from RL, so the fix would seem to be to curtail the flood of new SIM’s much more than is currently planned, underpin the land prices.

    By my (admittedly rough) calculations based on the total sqm of sims and the drop in SIM values over the last 2 months (i.e not the peak but 30% less than the peak value of early this year), the SL community – NOT the imagined “land barons” – has collectively lost some $US 7.8m.

    Where has it gone? I can tell you where it came from: the pockets of every little parcel holder, every premium account holder and every business owner of any sort. You can not transfer 7.8 m from an economy of this size without it being funded by the community as a whole.

    Those of you who think it is just the SIM developers’ paying for this are surely very mistaken. Think about what happens to a RL economy when the value of land collapses. That is what is happening here.

  83. RC, Elizabeth, thank you for your observations. Some things about SL that I sensed over the past several months have now become crystal clear to me.

  84. Siriam Mastroianni says:

    Thank you Elizabeth, JS, Deltango and others !!! – At leats someone is taklikg some sense here – the problem is however if anyone is listning. We can all babble as much as we like but unless someone is going to do something about is this whole world of us is going to implode. Many ppl here have invested literally millions of $US in this game over the past couple of years – The memberships have almost trebled over the past year but the amount of ppl online have only showd a steady rise. Since I joind about a year ago the ppl online were sometines touching 30K (and then all hell broke loose) to less than 40K on average every day (don’t quote my stats but give and take about 10%) Than mean a extra 6million people joind but only a additional 10K were activly playing. Now it only takes a fool to realise something does not add up and with more than halh my paying account holding friends leaving I’m really getting worried and have to make a decision – do I cut my losses and sell up everything … My BDay is coming up soon – should I renew my membership for another year …??? Will SL last another year and how much more do I have to loose b4 I quit.

    Problem seems we are all farting against thunder as we have no legal foot to stand on – there is only one way to get LL to listen and you all know what it is – I won’t mention it even and don’t even know if my msg will get posted – LL seems to have become the big school bully stealing from the ones that can’t protect themselves. It was a very long time since I heard something positive – Sometimes I don’t even feel like logging in – like today ….

    Virtual economy – based on which country ??? … Buy a dictionary LL …

  85. Nicola Zsigmond says:

    I will go along with JS on that: the cheap new regions being added daily is de-valuing other land. Come on guys, us land owners are paying you Lindens way too high land tiers as it is – now we have our land devalued too? So unfair. Why not reduced land tier rates instead? Please dont tell me tier prices are about to increase! OK, lower tiers or lower land prices are similar, but those of us who are trying to run a business off the land will appreciate the difference. Where’s the loyalty?

  86. Siriam Mastroianni says:

    Sorry RC – I missed your #65 Comment and duplicated a lot of what you were saying! My ploblem is that everyone is just complaing and moaning but no-one is prepared to stand up against the dictatorship that is LL. Everyday new rules gets added …. wonder how long b4 our earnings and CC info will be passed on to the government.

    I joined because I enjoyed the friendships, building stuff, writing absurd and useless scripst (they still suck after a year and I think I have to call it a day on that one..), making some money, LOOSING A LOT MORE, wheeling and dealing, joking, flirting, laughing …. but sadly every week I log in less – I even took a 2,5 months sabatical from SL only to get back to a place with MORE rules and a broken economy and yes the same amount of lagg.

    Dummo maybe I’m the useless, absurdly stupid ass here …


  87. Nicola Zsigmond says:

    After reading other comments, looks like some of us may just cut our losses and quit. I mean how far do we actually go in playing this expensive game? And it is expensive if you are paying the higher tiers – then cheap land is introduced – you can’t sell your old land at cost price even – so either you make a loss or you hang onto your land and continue paying the tiers. Yes, we knew the score before we parted with our $s.

  88. Siriam Mastroianni says:

    LOYALTY …. what’s that ….???

    I hear you Nicola but the problem is … who’s listning. How many requests have we made on the the land, devalueation, currency issues – sure in a RL economy you have Stock exchanges crashing, wars happen and desettlement takes place – so you WILL have your ups and downs. I agree that the property prices were getting a bit absurd but funny how that time the economy was BOOMING – and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to realise that it was also the time that LL made the most money.

    I guess it’s all about balance and unless LL listens to it’s members we are ALL going to loose, and that would include LL – what a pity. Whish this game had a Load Saved Game button ……

    OK no more comments as only 100 msg’s can be posted – won’t hogg this board any more – if you want to take the discussion any further and if there is anyone selse supporting me – plz IM me!!!

  89. Rafaella Schumann says:

    Too Late…I’ve several residential sims…All of my sims has affected with the idea of LL to increase so much the supplies.Also my citizens that bought land on my sims got totally in difficulty to resel.

    Well..based that LL can do something like this one day again I decided to no longer buy private sims anymore.

  90. Bill says:

    I find this all surreal. People are buying different things from Sl; A 3D website; networking etc. LL facilitate this through their infrastructure. These are services that LL have decided should be paid for in a variety of ways. When I bought land I bought certain services from LL and contact opportunities with other residents. I certainly do not see Land as an investment. If you pay for a web site is that an investment?

    Users who wander, maybe buy a costume or skin and chat every so often are vital to my sucess in SL. And I assume most content vendors. The is bound to be a significant attrition rate amongst those people. If cheaper land reduces that fall off rate all to the good.

    I have no history in SL, so do not know what prospectus LL has delivered over the years. Like any new business the strategy will change in the early years. It would be interesting to see a percentile distribution of land holdings by area. If it exists please point me too it

    A final thought if you have no influence over supply and no real means of predicting it over the next few years, then you are gambling not investing in my view and should expect extreme volatility. The real world offers derivatives to reduce risk, but do we really want to go there? Perhaps we have I am rather new.

    Island owners get privacy and control, but take on board a whole host of other risks. I don’t think a sq m price comparison is at all valid. What are your quantative reference points? If an island sim is attractive to buy into it will price accordingly when subdivided. If the owner has provided great content which appeals to a large number, the price may be higher than a bare island subdivided?

    Fascinating debate. Love to hear what LL say.

  91. thaumata strangelove says:

    Whatever you can do to drive land costs IN GENERAL down is probably good. I’ve been on 1/4 sim on the mainland since about November 2005 and the change in land dealings in that time has been pretty amazing. My plot cost me about $60 USD at the time, which I promise you won’t find anywhere now. I am happy to pay the tier on that land, as it’s still less than most private sim owners are charging for the same size plot and I have no restrictions via covenant. (I realize many people like to have building regulations in place, but I like to rebuild often into different themes and just have no use for someone who takes all my money and then tells me what I can and can’t build.)

    When the land prices rose, the biggest change I noticed was that people started buying smaller and smaller plots of land. Everyone knows the most annoying and ugly thing in SL is when someone parcels a beautiful plot of land into teeny tiny 512s (or smaller!) but when land is selling for more than $20L a square meter, most casual SLers probably can’t justify spending the cash for something more reasonably sized. Additionally, if people can start getting cheaper land from the lindens, land barons who are more than partially responsible for these tiny lots will be forced to lower prices also, making it easier for people to start gaining a little space back.

    I think it’s rad. and island owners shouldn’t be annoyed that islands and mainland will probably cost about the same in the future, as there are really a lot of perks with an island (like better terraforming and control over the parcel in general, the ability to retexture the land and control the lag a bit better, etc.)

    Really, in the end, the more people that can afford to buy land, the better. People with land buy houses and things to put on their land, and since the majority of SL economy is in shopping, I’d say that’s great news for everyone.

  92. Tegg B says:

    Chaos Mohr Says:
    What it comes down to is that every sim that is sold at auction is a guaranteed minimum of 195 USD a month in tier for LL. For those screaming at the supposed ‘Land Barons’ well if they don’t like it, they can buy the sims themselves and sell at cost – wait – don’t forget to figure in tier costs, not to mention time spent splitting up the land, keeping records etc. Sure, there are those who mark up land to ungodly prices, but it is a market driven economy, as long as people are buying, they will keep selling at that price.

    Have you ever considered people might be not wanting to resell the land, but actually live on it, strange concept for those in the flipping industry to grasp I suspect.
    And I’m sorry but I can’t work out how my tier will be cheaper by letting a Land Baron resell me a sim.

    More land is good, even the Landbarons can buy it cheaper too, so buy three times as much as they used to.
    As long as someone wants them, keep selling, next we will have Landbarons complaining there’s no sims for them to buy.

  93. Rudolph Ormsby says:

    It’s a shame that the supply of mainland is being reduced, It should be accelerated, maybe to 20 sims per day, or for as long as people are prepared to continue buying them at auction. Indeed, I think that the minimum bid should be brought back down to say 500 USD (or lower), or whatever the initial cost of the rack space is for a sim (assuming that tier to LL easily provides a decent profit margin for LL).

    It should be noted that the amount of land for sale is only about five per cent of the total land in SL – about 500 of the 10,000 sims.

    The “right” price for land is not “higher than it was a month ago so that I can make a short term profit”, it is the price that is affordable to all those people that make content, want to use the land in the long term, and effectively make SL itself a great place to be, most of whom bought land when it was MUCH cheaper than it is today (or 2007 generally). Cheaper land costs also results in MORE money being spent in-world on content, encouraging creativity, the economy and the SL community to grow.

    Keep that land coming LL – it will be needed for the winter rush to prevent another massive explosion of land prices.

  94. Andy Grant says:

    My question is just: Why the hell didn’t they adjust land auctions back in late july ?

    They knew they were gonna create a land collapse with the casino ban, it’s not like they took that decusion late at night of 26th.

    Even after the gambling ban they kept pushing sims like ever before, only after they noticed auctions were trading much lower they adjusted minimum bid to 1250 (from 1k), that ofcourse didn’t help so they adjusted from 16 sims to 10, that ofcourse didn’t help neither so they’re now adjusting to 8…

    LL should take a good look at RL central banks, the ones that are managed well provide economical growth, not because they act AFTER the fact, but because they do it in advance.

    In this case linden lab had ALL knownledge before they banned sl’s dominantely largest business sector, and they did nothing!

    Right now to correct that mess and get back to a level where ppl trust economical development they should immidiately halt all auctions untill the economy recovers. Pumping 8 sims will only further depress the economy.

  95. JS says:

    Rudolph Ormsby,
    As I put earlier even tho LL put more land on the market this month land sales (player to player) are down by 15 million sqm (230 sims) compared to last month. The market is at a slowed and slowing pace as people are trying not to lose their shirt and to dump 20 sims a day wouldn’t make sense because the market is past its saturation point and sales are down.
    I think that a price drop to a reasonable price and tier would be the way to make land affordable, at least it would make more sense than jacking up the price on the auctions than telling everyone how you’re trying to lower the price of land by dumping the higher priced land in troves on the market. That isn’t good for the wholesale customers when you push the ava. land prices to below what LL is selling it for..

  96. Camryn Baxter says:

    What needs to be done as well are to stop the land listings that offer false list prices to get at the top of the listings. My experience is that it is mostly the private sim land barons that do this. There are sooo many L$0 and L$1 listings every time I look that I have pretty much given up as using the listings as a way to find land to buy.

    The problem seems to be that many private sim land barons use the listings with a very inexpensive buy price, then charge high tier fees…so it turns into basically a rental.

    Maybe there should be a way to filter mainland parcels from private sim parcels. Maybe also the private sim sales should be required to list tier fees along with their listings as private sim tier fees vary wildly.

    Any thoughts LL?

  97. JS says:

    Camryn Baxter,
    there is, it’s one of the options in the land search window…. Read the previous posts I already posted how to do it…

  98. Hanna Ree says:

    Ok, so what I’m reading here is really in 2 groups. The first group that buys a sim to resell and land flippers. The second group is Joe Average that just wants a place of their own and might occasionally move so has to sell first to get there next place.

    The first group is crying because they feel LL is harming them with falling land prices. They expect to be able to make money. To this group, stop crying. What is happening is what happens RL and if you fail to properly look at your market and the things that can act on it, and then you’re going to get burned. There is no promised right to make money in SL or RL. You better have a well worked out business plan and even then things might happen and you’re wiped out. Not at all different than any other business. If you’re unsure of this concept, open a business RL.

    The second group is the ones I more feel for but again is still just like RL. Six years ago around me housing could not be built fast enough and prices shot up. Today a house takes well over a year to sell and you are going to have to sell cheep if you want to sell. A good friend had to take a 20% loss just to sell after 2 years. That’s RL and SL is going to mirror it with more likely harsher swings.

  99. JS says:

    Hanna Ree,
    Thanks for being the voice of reason, you’re obviously very well informed and have done a lot of research and understand what’s going on. That “stop crying” comment was needed because you know what the best thing for us to do is, with your wealth of knowledge and experience in the land market, having that 1 friend who sold a plot of land that time makes you a mega expert land guru. Also that insightful bit about having a well worked out business plan, just WOW, that’s what we’re doing wrong! Now that the world is so much clearer because of your expert advice.
    Or maybe you could find somewhere else to troll and insult people ^_^ there’s an idea!

  100. Dingle Doigts says:

    And so the saga continues. LL adds land which increases players which increases infrastructure lag, increases billing problems, and increases support requests. Meanwhile, LL does not provide the necessary staff and supervisory support to accommodate new workloads. It makes no difference if you buy a parcel, sim, or 20 sims, the affect and effects of increasing land touches everyone. Those who invest money for the sake of making some see their land devalued. Those who want to play just to play, see their experience degraded. Roads are not built, complaints are not addressed, lag and inventory losses continue. When you come right down to it, playing this game is cheap unless you want a large parcel of land. Devaluing land only affects those with a major investment. Those with a 512 or slightly larger should never complain about land prices-what does it cost you in real dollars, 25 to 50?. Those who have major investments have a slightly bigger stake. But those with small parcels should be aware of the “big” picture. Flooding the market creates other problems for you. The price is the least of your worries.

  101. Chris says:

    Yes genius Hanna, that’s ahem ‘…What is happening is what happens RL…’ I remember that one time, umm a while back, when the president thought land prices were too high in california and made that volcano go off in the pacific somewhere near San Luis Obispo, that created the extra land that me and my piggy Jimmy live on…. fool…

    LL loved the press on business week talking about economies and currency values but don’t practice what they proverbially preached. The day land value no longer hedges what it sells for straight out of auction, is a terrible financial indicator of where SL is heading. I’ve been a concierge member for over two years, to those who keep harking back to the good old days, remember not long ago LL raised the price of sims directly out of auction, and this has the knockon effect of making it more expensive the first day its sold. the days of 3.5/meter are like asking T-Rex to come out and play. Land IS worth more than that because LL said so (by raising price). Please stop justifying the downward trend, costing US$millions in losses across the grid – not just by the Anshe’s of the world but by little Pedro who bought a 1024m lot at 20/meter. think before you speak. this affected EVERYONE who owned land.

  102. j_whitfield says:

    I dont really know whats happening to SL. I have been playing for 2-3 months and just in this short term been seeing so many negative trends:
    – LL keeps adding features that no-one wants, even hate
    – Stability of the servers/client/webpages is getting worse and worse
    – Some areas in SL that were crowded are now empty…

    Sometimes I even wonder if LL is closing down all this on purpose. Maybe thay cannot handle their own creation anymore, gains too little on it, and just want to escape..?

    By the way: My account was “terminated” when I added a perfectly valid PayPal reference to get “Payment Info On File”. This happened 2.5 days ago. I filed a “ticket” at that time, but up to now, more than 48 hour later, it is still noted as “New” and not assigned.
    Anyone knows what response times to expect on a ticket?

  103. Novellium says:

    the matter is simple
    as many have explained above that the strategy is managed by the techies or by Linden’s acountants. They have totally forgotten the basis on which SL’s success rests. The economy ! a place where you could communicate, maintain your copyrights, sell, buy and trade. The hype was based on Anse Chungs example… where anyone could come and trade and make some linden bucks that could be exchanged for real Dollars.
    Today, with their greed (chasing Tiers revenue) and the narrow view of their techincians, they simply have managed to reverse the reasons why so many joined SL. The ECONOMY !
    The main pillars of SL economy are trading (land sales, services and goods sales i.e. land sales, clubs, and shops selling various items manufactured in sl suchj as clothes, skins, scripts, houses, etc,,)
    SL’s success rest foremost on their member coming onto SL, enjoying the various venues, and spending.
    Many were earning sl$ by working in the service industry.

    Today, land sales generates losses. Linden lab flogged thousands of sims at high prices. everyone ..simply everyone has had their investement halved..(contrary to their publicity hype)
    Clubs revenues have disappeared overnight by this blanket ban on sploders or game of chance…whereas in real life, raffles and internal lotteries are allowed in all if not most countries.
    I understand that hard core gambling should be banned and i agree with that as it was being used to launder funds.
    shops were benefitting from those earning in rentals, land sales, working in clubs, etc..
    Today shops also are squeezed.

    Linden Lab is not a free market. Everything is controlled and manipulated by those who have no clue of the consequences of their actions on the economy which fuelled the boom.

    It is not late yet to redress the situation. Linden Lab needs to employ an ecnomist who understands the cause and effect of each decision and can find a balance between a vibrant economy, a profitable operation, a working service (working grid) and above all..put ONE sim per server as they charge us for.
    Linden Lab cannot continue as they are for now. Many likeme have invested real US dollars for pixel lands and after somany hours of work, I see my investement reduced to 40%.
    This is not what i came here for like many. I do not mind working without gains, but basically now am working to pay the tiers and i still have to add my own dollars, and try to survice through a laggy sim.

    I sincerely hope that Jack Linden reads our posts and realises that the course they are onto for now will only destroy SL, and inflict ruin on many small businesses in sl.

  104. McCall Ryder says:

    Tell us, Jack, why the newer continents include Streets when no Streets are paved, nor can they be by their neighbors. I bit next to one once and when asking for a smooth-surfaced thoroughfare got an answer from LL that none would be built.
    Having cancelled gambling as a Second Life draw, it makes a whole lot of sense, to let people travel by the four-wheel vehicles they first meet in orientation.
    One of the present, big, attractions of your game is now travel–that tells us how many others live, love and decorate. Time you paved a few roads and let us lead foot rather than push button to pass through your world. It would benefit nearly all.

  105. DR Dahlgren says:

    The whole management of the SL World has been an issue since I have been a member, over a year now. I have watched the lack of any form of verification dramatically effect SL in a negative way. I don’t know how many times I have seen skyboxes above the orientation islands, full of identical avatars with names the are identical with the exception of a (version) number. Most of us have screamed to have this bot explosion stopped. Land was unavailable at reasonable cost last year, but those of us dedicated to SL paid the price if we needed land to express our vision. Now we are being punished if we wish to sell it to change our stratagy. Oh well.
    The gambling issue is a touchy one, but frankly, I am glad to see it go. The writing was on the wall a long time ago on that. As long as SL is a U.S. based company, they are going to have to abide by U.S. laws, and if they moved the servers to someplace that allowed gambling, by current law, it would still be off limits to U.S. players. Can you imagine the verification nightmare that having gambling open to some but not others would cause.

    The current age verification system is a mess. The land dumping by SL is a mess. The bugs like “Recent Items” in inventory continue to be a pain.

    However, we have sculpties, and maybe pretty skys and wow of wow’s, voice chat.

    Don’t get me wrong, there has been a lot of improvement in SL. I remember when 15K users would put the place on it’s lips. The influx of residents from other countries has added much to the SL culture.

    It is LL’s lack of truly listening to those who pay to play and continue to create and support SL that I believe has most up in arms. I mean, how long did the water issue last, even though everyone posted about it?

    We speak fairly loudly, but when has LL Listened.

    And last but not least, if you are in a third world country and have issues that involve money, I suggest you clean up your own bed before whinning here. Just like playing the race card, it only trashs what little credibility you may have. I get several emails everyday from places like Nigera that are scams. I get tons of hits on eBay from Africa and South America that are scams. I won’t do business there, or with the residents of these countries, until that changes. Why should anyone??

    LL – We still have hope, won’t you please start to listen?


  106. Fortyniner says:

    I can’t make up my mind whether the reduction in the release of new sims is good or not, I know that after casinos were closed down there is an awful lot of land for sale inworld. I can also see masses of land which seems to have been abandoned (at least it’s full of everyone’s junk).

    All I know is that my land costs varied from 7 to 19 L$ per metre and that a plot of mainland I’m selling at the moment isn’t attacting any interest at under L$6 p m2. I’ve just put this down to the glut of land that used to be casinos.

  107. Domneth says:

    So how do you verify the account is being verified by an actual adult? Or that it’s not someone under 18 just logged in on an adult’s verified account?

    Credit Card info and the ‘Deny all No Payment Info On File’ option should be enough.

  108. Mixter says:

    Isn’t there anyone who buys land for the purpose of actually developing it, instead of speculative gambling? I like low land prices. It allows me to buy more land so that I can build more things and have more room for myself. I don’t care what the resale value is, because I don’t buy land with the intention of reselling. Land is something that can be made productive in itself. Doesn’t anyone use it for that purpose?

  109. Lisandro Capalini says:

    I have 5 sims, 4 with land available. Over the past 6 weeks I could get between $7.00 and $8.00 sq. meter. Depending on the time of the month, how much land I DIDN’T sell the previous 30 days and my current land inventory…this is about break even. My tiers are set to break even at 80% filled. I now have land advertised for $4.00 sq. meter, and a new island with land priced at $7.00. RIght now I couldn’t sell a blade of grass if my life depended on it. I get 40 – 50 visits a day on $4.00 sq. meter and can’t sell it. LL better do something soon, I refuse to lose any more money on this than I already have. When my Linden is gone….so am I. I called them and told them that today….I suggest every Concierge member call in immediately. Going from 15 to 10 did nothing, going to 8 is a joke. They need to stop creating for at least one month, recycle what is out there and stabilize the economy for everyone. They lost the gamblers, unfortunately now they are toying with losing their bread and butter if island owners start pulling out.

  110. Meritum Lily says:

    I find it absurd to see so many people complaining about what the Lindens are doing and not doing about the land “market”. Your problem is you are treating SL as a get rich quick venture rather than a game. The only tried and true method for making money in SL is by selling creation. I’ve been doing this for years now and every penny I have spent for my land teir and land purchase has come from the money I’ve made off my sales. SL was not created so that you can quit your RL jobs and sit at home on your behind. Give Linden Labs a break for once and take responsibility for your own poor choices.

  111. Tony says:

    Those who keep saying that cheaper land is good because more people will own it are really missing the point. Land is cheaper, more people aren’t buying and it’s because of the ongoing costs of tier fees. Tier fees are the bigger barrier to land ownership.

    RC to avoid the issue with tier fees when transferring land, there’s a very good explanation of how to do it here:

    Worked for me 🙂

  112. Ellen Spark says:

    This is the best move by the Linden staff ever. The Linden economy has been in a recession. I know many Island owners ready to give up. Any many people complaing that SL is becomeing a ghost town.
    Why ? Because the is like one sim online for every person currently online. We need more online people to keep Second Life going and back to the great place it once was. Yes , you will allways have people complaining because everything isnt free, well, someone has to pay and support such a nice place, don’t they ?

  113. Ellen Spark says:

    Sorry, I ment one sim online for every 2 people currently online.

  114. Argent Stonecutter says:

    “In a healthy market 8-10/sqm is right on the mark for balance”

    Up until the land bubble started land trading had been health with the low end around L$6-L$7 per square meter for at least a year. If you bought land over that, you paid over the long term low. Why did you do that, did you think the bubble would last forever?

    I pretty much quit buying land when the price for a 512 square meter parcel hit 4500 (about L$9 per square meter) and I’ve only bought one 512 square meter parcel over L$5000.

  115. Ellen Spark says:

    Argent is right. Those are healthy land prices. I stopped buying Islands because of the falling land prices and falling Island auction prices.I have even seen Islands sold on ebay amazeingly cheep.
    I love second Life so much and the people that are here in it. Lets save this nice place, you all see the constant downward trend, dont ignore it, lets save this place.

  116. Ellen Spark says:

    I was refering to the quote:
    “In a healthy market 8-10/sqm is right on the mark for balance”

  117. Labrat Zabellin says:

    I think Second Life is great, and it will get better. I have a hard time justifying paying $100 (real money)or more for virtual land, just to get started. Some of us appreciate the experience without so much cash out of hand every month. My kids buy enough video games as it is.

  118. Ellen Spark says:

    It is really upsetting to hear us Island Owners refered to as ” Land Barrons ” because of what we charge for tier fees. You may not realize that Islands Owners are charged over 50 % higher land fees for an Island by Linden then they charge region owners for mainland. People think we make a huge profit because of this, instead we have to pass this cost to the land owner or pay it ourselves. And, by the way, we keep paying linden land fees for land we have not sold. So if you think we are so rich, you are very wrong. I know many people who are trying not to loose their Islands because of too much unsold land.

  119. Ellen Spark says:

    Hanna Ree,

    I really feel i need to reply to your comments because you seem to feel sl is like rl, it is not at all. The land situation is so much different. Since when in rl do you see Island popping up out of nowhere on a daily basis, and to an even bigger suprise, a whole continent ? If new land wasnt appearing every day, then your comments would be right on track, but we are dealing with different issues here. We need to closely review what is happening here before it is to late.

  120. Amanda Ascot says:

    Imagine a topic like this one staying open for so long. OK, then … I’ll take this rare opportunity to get a second two-cent’s worth in, not that anything I say is actually *worth* L$5.4, but I’m not asking anyone to pay me for my opinions. 🙂

    As was already pointed out, there are two groups of people with strong opinions, here. One group is those people who buy land and then immediately resell it for a profit. The other group is people who buy land with the intent of holding onto it. You can’t please both of those groups simultaneously, because their needs are very different and mutually incompatable the way many resellers are operating. The bubble in land prices was, in my view, driven by two things — Land Barons and Stupid Buyers.

    Now, before you self-professed land barons jump all over me, let me explain what I mean when I use an upper case “L” and “B” to spell those two words. A “Land Baron” (see the caps?) is someone who buys low and sells *ridiculously* (note the emphasis) high. What do I mean by “ridiculous”? Honestly, that’s a bit of a hazy concept, since a lot has to do with the surrounding environment. I think, however, that nobody is likely to argue (except maybe a Land Baron) that if you buy land at L$10.3 per square meter (which is what you pay if you buy a new mainland sim at $2500) and try to sell it to me at L$25 per square meter, you’re trying to rip me off, and yet I’ve seen plots on newly-auctioned land going for more than that in the last several months.

    Then there are Stupid Buyers who are so anxious to own their own little plots of real-estate in Second Life that they’re willing to pay that, and more. Just in the last week I saw a 512 square meter plot with a sale price of L$50,000! That’s L$97.66 per square meter — over $185 US for the equivalent of First Land. I recently grabbed up about 6000 square meters of very nice land for less than that, but somebody will be stupid enough to buy that tiny, overpriced plot if it stays on sale long enough. As long as people will do this, the money grabbers will continue to try to hike land prices up. Of course, that’s going to be very difficult, now that we’re seeing virgin (and even “used”) land dropping to well below L$10 per square meter, but so goes the yo-yo of the land market.

    Now, don’t get me wrong. I have nothing against someone buying a sim at an auction and trying to make a reasonable profit, but there are some people who are trying to get rich quick on virtual real-estate and that strikes a sour chord with me. I have no sympathy for these people. Affordable housing is hard enough to come by in the Real World. We don’t need to bring that issue into Second Life. I’m one of the little players in this market. I can’t afford to bid on new sims. I’m not trying to make big bucks on fast turn-arounds. I’m holding onto land with the intention of making a profit in the long haul through rentals — not sales. Furthermore, my goal is to insure that I can make property affordable, even to people without premium or basic accounts. In an ideal Second Life you should be able to make enough to afford rent on a 512K plot with an in-world job and still have time left over to “play”. Alas, this isn’t an ideal Second Life, but, who knows? Now that the land price bubble has burst maybe this will be a wake-up call for people to adopt business models that make sense in Second Life and not in the Real World.

    Now for several comments directed at specific posters:

    Ellyn @87: I think most of the comments regarding “land barons” aren’t referenced to private estate holders, but to the people who are into the mainland real-estate market to put a lot of money in their real life pockets and who own hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of square meters of land. Until recently I rented a very nice 8K plot on an island and I was nothing but satisfied with that arrangement — lag-free sim, nice neighbors, wonderful landlord, beautiful surroundings, trouble-free environment … well worth the $70-$75 I spent in rent every month. Yes, there are some bad land-lords out there, but I think most people who are in the business of renting island property are doing a service for those residents of Second Life who can afford it. Indeed, there are people renting mainland property who are also respectable contributors to Second Life and who offer rental properties at reasonable cost. We need to develop an appreciation for those folks who understand that keeping prices down makes it much more enjoyable for everyone. If you want to make a lot of money quickly, go into the Real World and get the stock market. It’s probably more predictable right now than the Second Life economy.

    Chris @77: I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the apparent descrepency between LL’s desire to hold land prices down and their decision to increase the opening bid of new sims by a whopping 25% overnight. This can’t possibly decrease the price of land, even though they seem to want to take credit for the current nose-dive (based upon that decision and their cut-back on new sim availability, apparently), clearly the result of completely different administrative decisions that have nothing directly to do with real-estate. Furthermore, they keep cranking out sims on a daily basis and I keep seeing more and more yellow blocks on the map persisting for weeks and even months. There is a glut of land, already. The more that becomes available for purchase in auction the bigger that glut will get because there simply aren’t enough people interested in buying — excepting those hoping to get rich by spending $2500 on a brand, new, shiny mainland sim … with no buyers even for plots put on sale for L$10 or L$11 per square meter, or those interested in developing a sim for their own purposes.

    Camryn @72: I need to clear something up, here, because there seems to be a *lot* of misunderstanding. When I was first in the market for some land I was a nopie. I couldn’t buy land. Someone told me I had to rent from someone who owned an island. That sounded reasonable to me, until I found some island property “for sale”. It took one very patient island owner to get it through my head that you can’t buy island property from the owner of the island. That is a basic fact that nobody can get around. Some island owners attempt to make it *seem* like you’re “buying” that property, but the simple fact is that all you’re doing is leasing it from them. That one business model based upon a “sale” and monthly or weekly “tier” is nothing more than a screen, hiding what is really going on. The island owner can, at any time, reclaim that land from you and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. It never changed hands. At any given point in time an island is fully owned by either an individual or a group to which it is deeded. So, when you “buy” an island plot all you’re doing is paying the owner something up front, and then you pay regular fees for the privilege of staying there (and it’s not “tier”, which is a term reserved for payments of “rent” on mainland property directly to Linden Lab). It’s still the island owner’s property. Yes, some of them even give you the fantasy of selling “your” property to someone else, but the only thing you’re actually doing is having someone pay you to transfer your lease to them. It’s a word game … nothing more.

  121. Ellen Spark says:

    If you want to stop the “true” Land Barons then you have to stop 512 sq meter free tier land form being allowed to be combined. There are people that abuse this gift. Here is the abuse. get 10 Barons to make a group, have them get 10 avators, now they can hold 51200 sq meters without paying any land fees. They can set all the land at crazy prices without the worry of incurring further expenses, and not be forced to lower their price because land fees are adding to their cost. They can hold the land for as long as they like, and as soon as they sell the other issue of abuse starts, you are charged land fees by Linden for the maimum amount of land you held,They just buy another parcel of the same sq meters to replace the one they sold, still no Land fee expense, hmm not a good system. they can keep turning over land with no added expense. These people are abuseing the system, this should be stopped, the only people who benifit is themand costs SL dearly for it, makeing other peoples expenses higher. I hope these issues are addressed. Also I payed 1695.00 usd for my Islands so here is a little math for everyone.
    1695 usd x 280 = 474,600 L$
    474,600 L$ / 65,536 square meters = 7.24 L$ per sq meter (no profit )


  122. Ellen Spark says:

    Oh, i almost forgot to mention. The 10 Land barons with 10 avators each get a total of 30,000 L$ a week Stipend Base in total since they are premium accounts, so they are funded for buying more land by Lindens Stipend Base policy. This only adds to the abuse.

  123. Ellen Spark says:

    Also, 30 usd ( 10 usd a month ) as a starting bid to reserve a grid space for a private Island is insane, way too cheep, here is one of the most abused offerings. People can tie up grid space for almost nothing in cost and block other Island owners from expanding. It should start at 30 usd a month, then only serious Island owners will reserve a space.

  124. Ellen Spark says:

    Oh sorry, I forgot the math, It takes 169.5 months or a little over 14 years to get the 1695 usd that is charged for an Island for the space that was blocked out of at a 10 usd a month reservation price, and also a loss of 49855 usd of Island land fees lost by not selling that space for over 14 years.

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