French Court Rules in Favor of Linden Lab

Linden Lab was recently the subject of a complaint brought to the French court by Familles de France who complained, among other things, about adult content in Second Life.  Today the court dismissed the complaint.

Continue further for the statement we released to the French press.

Press release
Paris, July 2nd, 2007

Today the Paris court (Tribunal de Grande Instance) dismissed the complaint filed by the French association Familles de France against Linden Lab, holding that the evidence brought by the association was unduly biased and should be thrown out.

Linden Lab is pleased with the result, which confirms that evidence in Internet cases must be gathered in an objective fashion. The case also confirms that French law, and in particular the law of Confidence in the Digital Economy, should be applied to Second Life.

Second Life is a digital space similar to the Internet itself in which users generate content and communicate with each other.

Linden Lab remains committed to making state of the art tools available to its users, in particular to permit reliable age verification where appropriate. Linden Lab will be rolling out in the near future an age verification tool that will supplement the measures already in place to help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of adult content within Second Life.  Linden Lab has been working on this initiative since November 2006, and announced it publicly on May 4, 2007, well before the complaint filed by Familles de France.

As responsible hosting provider, Linden Lab will follow closely the work of France’s Forum on Internet Rights. It is Linden Lab’s intention to maintain a dialog with governmental and non-governmental entities in charge of protecting the interests of children, so that laws to protect children in the real world can also be applied in the virtual world.

About Robin Linden

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135 Responses to French Court Rules in Favor of Linden Lab

  1. nina says:

    hey that is great news!

  2. Melon Writer says:

    Well, Adult Content in SL is part of SL, and the TOS and everything says it. Glad LL won!

  3. Amy Faddoul says:

    Hear hear! Way to go Lindenlags!

  4. Ann Otoole says:

    hope the judge told them to go have some *whine* and cheese.

  5. Ann Otoole says:

    Maybe France needs to work harder on keeping their kids from accessing mature areas without permission.

  6. Adult content on the internet? I thought its a free world.

  7. I’m seeing more and more “hosting provider” comments…

  8. mmccann says:

    Congrats! Maybe people will loosen up a bit after this, so I can stop having people giving me trouble because they think I’m a perv or something. Well, cept for the germans, I s’pect.

  9. hugsalot says:

    >> Linden Lab will be rolling out in the near future an age
    >> verification tool that will supplement the measures already
    >> in place to help ensure that minors do not have access to
    >> certain kinds of adult content

    Sorry is this a joke? LL has NOTHING right now to ensure minors don’t get onto the main grid. This new age verification isn’t supplementing anything, it’s something entirely new, and it will replace a system that had nothing to do with age verification, it was payment verification.

    Regardless I’m glad to see LL won this court case. Courts around the world are still mostly clueless about how technology works, and it’s frustrating when you have explain new things to old farts. Good to see this was thrown out… but I’m sure this “Familles de France” (whoever they are) will probably do it all over again, or rally a new case in a different country.

  10. Blinders Off says:

    I find it interesting and somewhat humorous that on the same page as this blog, three out of the four photos showing from Flickr were of naked avatars. LOL.

    No judgement there, just commenting. The group in question may or may not have had “unfairly biased” evidence, but I think there is no lack of perversion on Second Life, and “age verification” is unlikely to correct that situation.

    While few adults are offended by nudity as a concept, pedophelia groups and “murder/rape” groups are an entirely different thing.

    OK Linden Lab, you can erase this post now, like you erased some 25 posts on your other “legal case” announcement blog… posts that were merely factual statements of opinion. So much for free speech and “It’s your world”, eh?

  11. Krimson Gray says:

    Ann Otoole Says:

    Maybe France needs to work harder on keeping their kids from accessing mature areas without permission.

    ——————————–

    Same could be said for parents in general. Countries the world over would not have to implement nanny-state laws if not for people either lacking the skills to protect themselves or their children from what they deem to be “broadly offensive”. I think its rather shameful that instead of taking personal responsibility, that people will leave such decisions up to the state even to the point where special interests literally demand we give up civil liberties in order to nerf the planet and make it safer.

  12. Mannfreid Paine says:

    Now if only we can get rid of this age verification crap.

    i refuse to give me SSN to ANYONE.

  13. Salamol Paragon says:

    “…help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of adult content within Second Life.”

    Ummm certain kinds… I didn’t think they were supposed to be on SL at all. It’s an adult world, we are supposed to be 18 to be here, so why “certain kinds” of content? Perhaps this was lost in translation of French to English…

    But congrats on winning the court case, and keep fighting for the users rights!

  14. WarKirby Magojiro says:

    Yay.

    You guys definitely deserved to win this one.

    But as for the bragg case. I’m sorry to say I’m rooting for him. I think you guys treated him unfairly, and it scares me that you would do that to anyone.

  15. DaQueenB Houston says:

    Can we say “MAIN GRID”?….Ok now class, let’s say “TEEN GRID”
    kudos Linden Labs on this victory!….Otherwise, France ROFLMAO GET A FREAKIN LIFE!…This game was designed for adults, adults usually come with ADULT CONTENT…..
    Instead of taking a company that has created entertainment for adults to court in attempt to sue for damages etc, how about creating an organization to prevent Minors from entering into ADULT sites on the internet and WWW!?
    OMFG, tisk-tisk shame on “Familles de France” VIVA la FRANCE?…yeah right more like pfffffffffft~

  16. Christopher molinaro says:

    wow i am sure you are very happy that you do not have to deal with this any more. All I can say for the other organization is that us adults have no way of keeping children away from this game. I suggest that the parents check this game out before there child play it, as they should do with any game children may buy in stores.

  17. Galbraith says:

    What Krimson said. All too often “parents” ask that someone else (TV networks, internet tools, providers, etc) do the work that must be THEIRS, that is to watch after their kids and check what they are viewing/listening/browsing. It is YOUR kids, why should I or anyone else watch after them? Take your responsibility as a parent, and care about what you generated. If your sons come to my bookshoop and watch Playboy don’t sue or petition against the existance of that kind of papers, keep your damn kids out my bookshop!

  18. Cosette Lundquist says:

    What is so hard about watching your own children and leaving the rest of the world alone?
    And I thought we here in America were moronic about it.
    If you want family friendly, go to the Teen Grid, we don’t need you on the main one.

  19. Deltango Vale says:

    LL could have avoided 99 percent of this problem by terminating Nopey accounts (no payment info on file) on 1 January 2007. It is ridiculous to have left the back door wide open for so long then turn around and post extra guards on the front door to demand onerous guarantees from long-standing and fee-paying residents.

  20. Roy Blanchard says:

    funny that the flickr pics on this page are nudes… LOL

  21. Lozlo Peng says:

    Then why the hell are they on secondlife? It clearly says there is mature content.
    This is a bloody game, it’s virtual, people need to stop going to extremes.
    That’s like complaining about a pr0no site, what a bunch of retardss :\

  22. Lozlo Peng says:

    Deltango, not everyone wants to submit they’re payment info on a GAME. Whether having payment info or not, everyone still has the right to own a basic secondlife account.

  23. Deltango Vale says:

    And let us all remember that SL is VIRTUAL and VOLUNTARY.

  24. Doris Haller says:

    I wonder why any game where the main goal is to kill life does not get as much attention by media and parents as SL, where sex is not even the main goal, and violence is very rare.

    I believe that it is way much worse for any child’s improvement to play murder than to play mom & dad.

    Also I am rather surprised that this complain’s origin is France.

  25. Pingback: PixelPulse Magazine » Blog Archive » Court dismisses Familles de France suit vs. LL

  26. Meade Paravane says:

    ‘Grats, LL!

  27. Ardar Etzel says:

    Ahah Famille de france is a very little organisation in France, full of grandmothers and grandpas 😀

    Before SL, there was Carmageddon, GTA 1 2 3 … some rpg like quake or unreal . Famille de France hates the games for adults and they want to show us : they are still here like crab lises ! lol

    Sorry about my crappy englsih, yes im french 🙂

    VIVE Second Life !!

  28. Kenny Devoix says:

    I totally agree that LL’s should have won this case. As many others here have stated, where are the parents during this and don’t they have any control or clue what their children are doing? In my opinion it is the parents responsibility to control their children and not try to pass that duty on to others and make them responsible for the parents own lack of control.

    As far as the Bragg case goes he was exploiting SL knowningly using blatently illegal means and is no better then those who used the copybot for profit in the past. Myself I hope LL wins then case and then files criminal charges against him. Think about it using a little common sense, he was taking from the residents as well as LL. I don’t any rationial reason at all to defend the man other then a hate of LLs itself.

  29. Nulflux Negulesco says:

    Payment Info != Age Verification.

  30. Bedsee says:

    well said Deltango

    i think two things, first this is a bit like airing dirty linen, i see this as a trash tv sort of thing. keep your court cases to yourself unless you also wish to post when you lose (which might be very soon) this brings me to two
    i’m an adult, i pay already….plenty. consider very carefully how you wish to verify age here, especially considering how lax your system is while touting the necessity of verifying to create in a world i already live in…as an adult.
    oh and good luck

  31. Tony says:

    “in particular to permit reliable age verification where appropriate. Linden Lab will be rolling out in the near future an age verification tool that will supplement the measures already in place to help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of adult content within Second Life. ”

    I hope you’ve come up with a new solution because the Integrity idea simply won’t wash.

  32. Pingback: MMODump.com » French Court Rules in Favor of Linden Lab

  33. Cyn Vandeverre says:

    The pics that come up via the Flickr stream are things which people submit to it — and folks aren’t supposed to submit nudes, but I don’t think there’s a human approving pictures. At any rate, they’re not nudes anymore.

  34. Supa says:

    Another classic case of the misinformed trying to blame Linden Labs and companies like them for the failings of the parents!

  35. Hg Beeks says:

    Roy:
    Even better was that during the period when LL was talking about locking all mature content for people who didn’t provide ID, all of the flickr images were nudes.

  36. Deltango Vale says:

    @15

    So you would prefer to give your SSN, DL or passport number? That is the LL plan at the moment. Not even the worst hard-core porn sites ask for passport numbers as proof of age. You are right, SL is a GAME – a VIRTUAL and VOLUNTARY game designed precisely NOT to be the real world.

  37. Darien Caldwell says:

    Good to see things go in favor of the facts for once. 🙂

  38. Terry Misfit says:

    WOOOOOOOOOOOOT, wtg Linden labs. and kudos to the comments posted herein. As a mother of three myself police your own kids, i enjoy a place “just for adults”. Leave the interent alone, u don’t like adult content, where adults have freedom to express themselves however they see fit. Then go to http://www.disney.com,,,,, plenty of non adult games to play there.

  39. Tek says:

    yeah don’t pay attention to Famille de France, it’s just a tiny annoying organisation we have here in France, I’m sure there s the equivalent in every country.. 😛 And about the age verification thing, well what about the billions porn sites all over the internet that just ask you in tiny letters to click exit if you’r under 18 lol.. parents just gotta learn to take care of their kids better

  40. I just hope someone checked spelling and grammar before sendin out those kind of articles *laughs* anyhow keep frontin, nice step, LL 🙂

    If you are not able to teach your child right from wrong, well then sh** infront of your own door and not on any games available all over the internet. And the other thing, if you wanna play an international game, with the headquarters in the United States, cmon then speak at least basic english. “sorry im frech” isnt an excuse in all and just shows that you are even not able to spell your own nation right *laughs* So maybe they calm down or they will get lost, this is a modern world and yeah there are computer games, go back to the past or get another life 😉

  41. Dallas Seaton says:

    Lozlo Peng: Whether having payment info or not, everyone still has the right to own a basic secondlife account.

    Wow! No, not even close, Lozlo. Whatever country you live in, you’re guaranteed a few basic “rights” – life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, free speech, etc etc. But no, you do not have a “RIGHT” to own a secondlife account!

  42. Desmond Shang says:

    This sounds like a good and proper result.

    I presume France’s Forum on Internet Rights is this one?

    http://www.foruminternet.org/en/whoarewe/principles.phtml

    I’m a bit torn… I can certainly see reasonable agreement with the French, but there are countries out there that would deny the rights of many in our society.

    I do hope that human rights principles for all continue to dominate the discussion.

  43. Chris Gaits says:

    Have the french seen the movies they make? Most have nude scences and what about the nude beaches and colonies, this was a case of money and greed, they wanted to make a quick buck from a emerging company. One simple thing Lindens should do is when you sign up there should be a screen that makes you type AGREE that you are over the age limit for adult content, then it should continue with the sign up, it is easy and no can say they did not understand or read it before signing up. You can also hold a forum on other ideas I am sure many or the residents will be glad to help work it out.

    Now for a off topic suggestion, please keep on working on bug fixes and scalability only, we really need to get stability for longer periods of time.

  44. Sean Petit says:

    I’m not sure where this misplaced attitude of entitlement I see through out these blogs comes from. No one has a ‘right’ to Second Life. Linden Labs provides access to their systems and services. It is a privilege which some people pay for and other utilize for free thanks to LL’s generosity (admittedly self-serving). I’m not sure why people think LL ‘owes’ them anything other than the agreed upon access to their systems.

    Buying Coca-Cola out of a vending machine doesn’t entitle you to run the Coca-Cola Company, and your free (or paid) SL account sure doesn’t entitle you to tell Phillip Rosedale and company how to run theirs.

    Get some perspective, people.

  45. Blinders Off says:

    While Victorian purdery should be gone and good-riddanced… I am amused by the comments that parents should watch over their own children and leave the government out of it. Comments I would guess are posted by people who do not have children of their own.

    Because if you did, you would fully understand that parents cannot watch over their children 24 hours a day. While they may control internet access and content in their own home, and while they can instruct their children in expected conduct, they cannot tag along and hold their child’s hand ever second of the day. Children ARE curious. That is why we have R ratings on movies and “Age 18 required” on “adult” stores. The government has long been looked to for reasonable protection of our offspring.

    So anyone who thinks it is wrong, or bad or fighting against our “freedoms” (how people like to throw that word around) to ask government to protect society from perversions imho really hasn’t thought this through all that much. And to the guy who said sex isn’t the dominant theme of Second Life…. LOL what have YOU been smoking? LOL

    Seriously, there are a lot of potentially obejctionable and harmful things on SL if a minor manages to get into it. Agreed, there are even more harmful things on the rest of the internet. Why the government hasn’t clamped down major bigtime on the internet already is beyond me. But I think it is fair to say that there is NOTHING wrong with parent who are concerned about the kind of things their children may be accessing. I think it’s also safe to say that LL’s supposedly “open” policy (at least, until someone does something LL feels like censoring) has been the subject of many, many debates and is a highly controversial subject.

    They have set themselves up as the leaders of the VR Society age… and taken no responsibility in governing or moderating that society. Power without responsibility is anarchy and chaos. What SL basically is, is a society without a legal, judicial or police force. That’s why so much of SL looks like a garage sale gone insane. (Garbage sale?)

    I’m not for the “moral majority” histrionics. I am for adults being actual adults rather than ill-behaved and ill-mannered juveniles. But what I am really, really for is freedom of speech, which includes the freedom to object to what one believes is wrong. So if that group in France believes that SL is a problem, the very concept of Freedom of Speech gives them the right to test that belief in court… no matter how much all of y’all want them to keep their mouth shut.

  46. kerunix flan says:

    Thank you Linden Lab ! Thank you for all the french residents ! *love* and *hugs*

  47. Lozlo Peng says:

    Okay, lets use a thesaurus and change rights to privelage. Everyone has the privelage to own a PROMISED BASIC ACCOUNT ON FIRST SIGN UP.

    Don’t get smart

  48. Lozlo Peng says:

    *Trying to post a certain post i submitted a minute ago which i can’t see :S*

    There may be a duplicate, my appologies for spam :\

  49. Blinders Off says:

    BTW, just to ask the question Linden Lab… while you’re publicly patting yourself on the back regarding these court cases… are you going to be equally forthcoming with the ones you lose?

  50. EnCore Mayne says:

    sounds like you got tagged real bad. bad linden lab, bad. if they didn’t do it someone else would have. cudos for keeping the game afloat. love to you all.

  51. IO says:

    (( Linden Lab will be rolling out in the near future an age verification tool that will supplement the measures already in place to help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of adult content within Second Life. ))

    i am -completely- against SSN and passport info being submitted to this site.. if it comes to that point, i’m gone.. that’s a security risk i am unwilling to take ! and as for true verification, that stuff can be faked anyway.. just use someone else’s. (hooray, identity theft !) but really, how can it be a second life if your first life identification is immediately tied to it ? parents just need to do their f’king jobs ! …..so irritated.

  52. Lozlo Peng says:

    Keep getting court cases and noone is going to want to associate themselves with you anymore, LL.
    People’s time and content is now under threat

  53. Dirk Felix says:

    Parents are ultimatly responsible for their childern. LL has also, in my opinion, statrted to regualte content that the Justices of the United States Supreme Court has deemd appropriate for viewing on consenting adults. The idea regulating a tiny engaged in any activity that other avatars are permitted is a violation of civil rights.

    Supreme Court keeps Net porn law on ice
    http://news.com.com/Supreme+Court+keeps+Net+porn+law+on+ice/2100-1028_3-5251475.html

    Justices block Internet porn law
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5324463/

    Linden Labs also goes further than any large portal by requiring information from its memebership to access of any and all content when known standards of practice exists. Having a thrid party collect and then store this information is not what signed up for, nor is it something I will participate in.

    Lets review what Linden Labs Management states what Second Life really is:
    “In Second Life, consumers interact with each other using 3D avatars, as representations of themselves, to socialize, network and do business. To be clear, this is *not* a game. Premium members pay to buy virtual land and storefronts, where they sell each other everything from virtual outfits for the avatars to art for their real-life homes, generating $23 million in transactions between members in 2005.” – David Fleck VP Marketing Linden Labs

    Mr. Fleck identifies Second Life as an extension of Real Life business and business activities. I feel that any chnage to the way I do business within this enviroment should be under the laws where:
    • SL Servers reside
    • SL Application Development is done
    • My physical location for Viewing and Interacting with content not owned by LL

    Interferring with any business or business transation in the State of California is considered a Tort that can be litigated.

    Fraud, coersion and other criminal activities exists within the Second Life Environment. I would prefer to see efforts of LL addressing these issues vs entering an area that WILL be challenged at some point by membership.

    I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one on Television. I do however know people who are and the general oppinion is that in time somone wil challenge one or many issues we have seen in Blog comments.

    I believe in freedom and not having my civil rights determined by any company or corporation. This is what I pay for, this is what I expect.

    Freedom’s Just Another Word For Nothing Left To Lose 😉

  54. kerunix flan says:

    @10 and “everyone” : “Famille de France” is a little association. it’s not “all french familly in france”. Famille de France got very bad press in France itself and they’ll probably STFU now. Most of us don’t like FdF.

    USA isn’t WallMart(tm), France isn’t Famille-de-France, kthxbye 🙂

  55. Deltango Vale says:

    @34

    I agree completely. If LL wish to destroy their own creation, it is theirs to do so. Having said that, if someone wishes to fill his 1970 Corvette convertible with concrete, he is equally free to do so. A bit of a shame, though, in both cases.

  56. WildFire Janus says:

    This court case just goes to show that parents need to be paying more attention to what their kids are doing online. It’s the parents responsibility to make sure they avoid the mature content, it’s not the providers job of the online game or site to play babysitter. I play on Teen Second Life and I have to say that I am greatful for linden Lab’s security as far as age requirement goes. LIDEN LAB ROCKS!

  57. Oiuy Young says:

    It is plane and simple People u watch your kids it is not the job of others to do yours u had the child u take the job of raising the child stop pawning off on the net or tv and let me say this to linden lab they will always find a way around age checks and all just like we did at there age but atleast here they are safe good work. rather a kid learn from a safe place then off a street We all know parnets and teachers never step up any more except the rare few

  58. Ann Otoole says:

    If a country has a problem with the content on the internet then that country has the option to make internet access illegal. they can go live in the stone age till they no longer exist for all i care. and there are some trying to do just that. except for those in power who will still have all the obscene material they please.

  59. IO says:

    “And the other thing, if you wanna play an international game, with the headquarters in the United States, cmon then speak at least basic english. “sorry im frech” isnt an excuse in all and just shows that you are even not able to spell your own nation right *laughs*”

    um, congratulations, jasmin marquez.. that was ignorant and unnecessary – and i suggest you work on your own english.

    — BUT SINCE THAT’S NOT THE POINT:

    hehehe, YES that flickr stream should probably be monitored if they’re going to put it directly on the site like this.. hahahaha, yikes ! though i admit that it’s interesting to see unfiltered things in such a paranoid world once in awhile.

  60. Sydona Thunders says:

    Oh good grief! And I thought, perhaps, that the “Moral Majority” died when Jerry Falwell did. Guess I was wrong. Congratulations, LL, for standing your ground against those who would oppress free speech and a persons rights to enjoy freedom, no matter, in the world they live!

    What this all comes down to is, PARENTS, ultimately, are RESPONSIBLE for what their childern do, see, and participate in on the internet!

  61. Electron Cleanslate says:

    Lozlo Peng: Deltango, not everyone wants to submit they’re payment info on a GAME. Whether having payment info or not, everyone still has the right to own a basic secondlife account.
    —————————
    LL is a private company. They put up their money to make SL possible. Nobody has any *right* to any kind of account, especially those who do not want to provide this private company with payment info. Don’t like the rules, then don’t play the game.

    Bragg is a thief and a cheater. He most of all has no right to tell this private company how to run their game to allow him to cheat other players.

    Best wishes and good luck to LL in all of their battles for their own rights to do what they want with their own money and their own company. LL you guys provide a wonderful exerience for so many of us. Keep up the good work.

  62. Aromadon Enoch says:

    Congrats! Good for you! Way to go! You did it!! Now, do you suppose you could quit breaking your arm patting yourselves on the back for defending the right of perverts to be perverts and actually fix the MULTITUDE of things that are so SERIOUSLY wrong with your program? Not that it matters to me anymore… I already wised up and got the hell out, but I do have a morbid fascination with watching your downward spiral and am hoping I don’t have to wait long to see the actual crash and burn…

  63. get a life guys, comments about “you proberly dont have children” is very odd and amusin. Yeah i have 2 for example but i can promise you, that my children never would end up on those kind of games, cuse i watch em. 24/7 ? No but long enough to know what they are doin, if you are not able to do this well get a dog or cat, there you dont have to care about. Its just a lazy way. We have teen sl, and no this is not for those freaks that have a fetish, like some ppl think it is *lol*

    Alot of Adults that have an SL account should agree on age vertify. I mean what you have to lose ? Oh i forgot privacy ? well lemme tell you there is no privacy on the internet 😉 Sowwie for those that thought this. If you wanna be able to enter an “mature” place well then go ahead and enter your card number, car license or whatever. If you are scared well then you stay outside. Isnt this easy ? 🙂

    For all others, I basicly dont have any problem with people playin SL but please keep in mind, you cant blame someone for your own fault/behaviour.

    Resume : I can’t say it often enough. SL – internet game – US company – HQ San Francisco (no this is not the place behind china) !

    Hell you can now try to force em to your own country rules/laws but whats the deal on that ? then go and play a game that are based on your OWN rules/laws. you agreed on many things as you entered SL, sometimes you should read what you are goin to sign on (just as hint) if you are not able to understand it, well then change your client to one of the languages (yeah sl does support this, and not since yesterday) if you still not understand what you are signin up for, well then dont AGREE on.

    Easy rules, easy life (yeah even sl does count to this ) and now close someone those comments before it gets ridiculous 😉

  64. Ethen Pow says:

    @27

    I agree that LL has no right to deep personal info, and if you have a bank account under your own name and have paypal connect to it should be poof like any other “Hosting Provider” Out there. We have right to limit our content to who we want too. its more on LL and ourselfs the residents to make sure Secondlife is safe or Protected form Teens or Minors

    maybe be a crazy idea but make it that you can signup in the Teen or “PG” grid easy and make signing up for “MATURE” Grid harder, plain and simple.

  65. I’m glad LL has won this case, as I believe like everyone that AGE VERIFICATION starts at home with the parents.

    With that said though, I have one slight concern for LL. While I understand your stance, that you want to be considered a provider per say, and therefore enjoy the laws that protect your service, how do you then reconcile the fact that you know there are COPYRIGHT and TRADE MARK violations happening daily inside SL, and yet do nothing to stop them?

    My point is, when you, the service provider, know about an illegal activity and do NOTHING to stop it, you put yourself in a position to be held liable, since you did NOTHING to stop it. It’s just a matter of time before the MPAA figure out people are RENTING/SELLING DVD’s in-world, and unless these people have explicit licenses with the studios, they are doing this illegally. Why hasn’t LL investigated these businesses to be certain they are operating legally? Why has the LL attorney told me “everything is fine, trust me, I’m an attorney and you aren’t.” When it’s obvious by reading the license that comes on ALL DVD’s, it states without being convulted, that these DVD’s are for PRIVATE USE ONLY and you do NOT have permission to re-broadcast them for commercial gain.

    I guess what I’m wondering, is how LL thinks it can protect itself when/if the MPAA come to our world and file a complaint, not only against the avatars, but also against LL?

  66. Lozlo Peng says:

    ELTANGO

    38 Lozlo Peng Says:

    July 2nd, 2007 at 1:34 PM PDT
    Okay, lets use a thesaurus and change rights to privelage. Everyone has the privelage to own a PROMISED BASIC ACCOUNT ON FIRST SIGN UP.

    Don’t get smart

    KTHX.

  67. Gringo Star says:

    @35 said “I am amused by the comments that parents should watch over their own children and leave the government out of it. Comments I would guess are posted by people who do not have children of their own.”

    And you would guess wrong. As a father of a 2 and 4 year old, the difference between me and the whiney excuse makers are that I take the time to educate myself on how to secure my computers and network connection.

    The myth that a kid can figure out how to undo any security you attempt is just that, a myth, probably fostered by people watching war games too much. Most kids are not the little geniuses their parents make them out to be. The vast majority of kids until a certain age are easily blocked, with minimal effort on the parents part, until they hit their teens. From there, parents simply need to research the right hardware and software to use to block your kids from getting at content you don’t like.

    Can you do this perfectly? NOPE. There isn’t anything you can do perfectly to keep people from things they really want. Ask any prison guard how hard it is to keep drugs out of prison, they’ll tell you it’s not possible. You can’t keep inmates in facilities with 24 hour video surveilance from making weapons, there is no way you can block things 100 percent in the free world.

    But, you can stop being a whiney dipshit and educate yourself and take the time to learn how to keep your kids from getting access to things they shouldn’t have. If you don’t have the intellectual capacity for this, then hire someone.

    In my opinion, any parent too lazy to take the time to learn how to control what flows through the pipe into their computers(or pay someone to do it for them), they should simply surrender their kids to their local child protective services and let competent people raise them instead.

  68. Laetizia says:

    Does this mean you can now quit the ludicrous practice of banning words? Or did the French teach you some words in their language they’d like you to ban from Search as well? Maybe the EU can provide you with a list in 20-something languages. I can start you off with a list of literary works of controversial nature if you want to. Nabokov wasn’t the only one, not by a long shot.

  69. Lozlo Peng says:

    ELECTRON* rather

    Also, I have no problem with giving my payment info in. I have spent thousands of USD on secondlife let alone made in-world.
    I am saying noone should be under threat just because they don’t have payment info in their profile – BECAUSE LL MAKES IT OPTIONAL

    period

  70. I am glad to hear LL won the case. And I for one am EXTREMELY looking forward to age verification! Any idea when it will be released?

  71. Hypatia Callisto says:

    yay for winning this case, and happy to see some judges exercise their common sense.

  72. IoPisPo says:

    LL will publish too when they are condemned? ^^

  73. SouLKrusheR says:

    As I read ass these blogs about parents keeping kids off the net and watching or participating in adult content related games. etc. Let me tell you something there is no way to keep kids from viewing it or or prevent them from temptation. No matter how good a parent you think you or how hard you try to shield your kids from seeing it. Kids are sneaky, devious and adventurous. As a matter of fact you don’t own your kids. Your kids are protected and owned by Government. As long as its as easy as 1-2-3 to create a bogus adult avatar . kids will constantly be in the SL adult grid. A lot of schools computer lab PC’s allow access to SL. we’ll just leave it at that.

  74. Digitallama DeSantis says:

    I think it is great that LL won this case, and I love Secondlife.
    But i do not support those who suggest that LL should remove the “No payment info on file”-accounts.
    It is very clear that this arrangement recruits alot of new members to SL, that would not have bothered to visit and explore this place if they had to pay money to get in. Without this arrangement number of active members would be far lower.
    I remember when I wanted to check it out, I only bothered because it was free, but soon decided I wanted to stay in this wonderful place.

  75. Jayden B says:

    > to help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of
    > adult content within Second Life

    do not have access to *certain kinds of adult content*
    but will have acess to everything else?

    Don’t know how others read this but I see this as a tacit admission that the grids will be merged.

  76. jeannie says:

    Nulflux Negulesco Says:
    July 2nd, 2007 at 1:17 PM PDT

    Payment Info != Age Verification. According to the Lindens….apparently not !!!

  77. Blinders Off wrote:
    “I am amused by the comments that parents should watch over their own children and leave the government out of it. Comments I would guess are posted by people who do not have children of their own.”

    Um, no. I’ve now a 15 year old granddaughter, and her parents nor I expect any government to protect her. So long as there is a front page stating the site contains mature content, that is sufficient.

    That is the most any online site should have to do. Beyond that, it’s sloppy, lazy parenting if the kid gets in.

  78. Pingback: Raph’s Website » Some good legal news for Linden

  79. Jayden B says:

    @ 30, Jasmin…

    > And the other thing, if you wanna play an international game, with the
    > headquarters in the United States, cmon then speak at least basic english.
    > “sorry im frech” isnt an excuse in all and just shows that you are even not
    > able to spell your own nation right *laughs*

    Yay, trust a close minded yank, who thinks the world revolves around them, to insult other countries as well as show their inherent stupidity.

    Not withstanding that typonese is excusable and quite readable the very phrase “sorry im frech” (sic) is a translation. Their word is “français”, and *that* is how they spell *their* nation’s name.

    I think you should write “Désolé je suis américain” 100 times (without a spelling mistake) as punishment for being rude.

    Just because one puritanical parents group decides to be idiots doesn’t tar the entire nation with the same brush and certainly should not draw your rudeness. If that were the case we could call *all* Americans ignorant pigs because of your actions?

    est-ce que c’est pas aussi?

  80. Salamol Paragon says:

    I think the large majority of people here are talking really young kids getting on to SL. But mostly I’d assume it’s 16 and 17 year olds, that you wouldn’t be able to tell from an 18 year old with an interview or from a line up.

    So many people are saying you should “Watch” your kids… but then, perhaps America yes, but Europe, a large majority are living on thier own by 17. Who honestly watches what thier 17 year old son does in his bedroom… or keeps an ear out for phone calls he makes… or follows him around town. Perhaps ages 12-13 year olds and below… but after that you really can’t “Watch” them anymore.

    No amount of verification will keep these out, but I have to say I am glad LL for once stood thier ground on an issue against the courts, for once. I just hope that IF they do roll a system out it won’t kill the community.

    And for GAWD sake stop the “No payment info” bashing, perhaps they don’t have a RIGHT to be on SL, but nobody does. However they do have just as MUCH right as a paying customer… and thier views are just as valid.

  81. The Nimbus says:

    WEW! The Lindens have prevailed gain. The friench must surrender.

  82. Tony says:

    @53 Lozlo Peng age verification isn’t about payment info, payment info isn’t good enough. They want part of your SSN or your driving licence number or your passport number and they haven’t confirmed whether data protection laws where you live are going to be compromised by the collection of this info. It’s certainly not about payment info that’s for sure.

  83. Helori Pascal says:

    well some times in bro-c’hall they get there head on straight and do some thing right. i am suprised.

  84. Draigar Liu says:

    Well from what i can tell Linden Labs is based in the United States as are the servers that we acsess to get into Secondlife.
    Unless Im mistaken but they are sanctioned by US laws, as are the US citizens in Secondlife. And unless they have broken any US laws isnt it reasionable to assume that the citizens acsessing from other contries should be more concerned with getting in trouble with their contries laws instead of trying to blame their actions on SL and Linden Labs.
    It would be like someone in the US breaking the law here in the US and blameing the French, German, ect….
    If it is illegal in France or Germany..ect dousn’t make it illegal in all contries.
    so if I went to a site in Germany or France ect.. and acsessed something that was illegal in the US but not there , I could blame them for my actions? DONT THINK SO!!!!
    It is rediculouse to think that these individuals and media types would even think that.
    So way to go Linden Labs… NOW FIX MY PROGRAM 🙂 lol

  85. Schizm Neutra says:

    I agree that parents should be watching what their children do in regard to ‘adult content’. One concern I have is the amount of advertising that goes on in PG areas that are obviously meant for adults. I have one such situation on my parcel, and the advertiser and I have conversed about it.

    I have ALSO contacted Help about this, and it’s their opinion that, oh well…it’s just advertising. The content that is NOT fit for PG does not seem to make them wince.

    The Advertiser has been gracious enough to TRY to find PG advertising, but only about half of what appears on the ‘cubes’ (four of them, six sides each of course) is fit for PG content. That this is adjacent to my PG content parcel is agitation, however, I try to work WITH her instead of becoming hostile.

    I have found about four teens who needed to be guided to the Teen Grid. 3 of the 4 seemed to be grateful for the help…the fourth was sort of surly, but eventually understood the need for a ‘clean’ record should he want to enter the Adult side of SL.

    The whole situation makes it more understandable why Jesus (even if you do not accept His divinity) was correct that we are all individually responsible for OUR OWN morality. Laws by and large do not work; HE knew this and that viewpoint has attempted to appeal to people since His death. His understanding of this is not a ‘religious’ theme; it’s a sensible, reasonable idea that ANYONE can get!

    I found a picture today on Search while looking in groups. Not an ‘Avie’ picture–a photograph. It defined an adult theme to the maximum.

    The nudity itself was not the problem…the WAY the nudity was displayed goes against every decent person’s idea of how to treat a fellow human being.

    That others find this ‘entertainment’ is marginal.

    That someone’s child would view this is, to me, child neglect–an instance of a child who is NOT supervised well enough.

    I’m a mother of five children; all adults now–and I have five grandchildren and one great-granchild. I raised my children by myself because the moral view I needed in a father wasn’t there…I realize how hard it is to ride herd on kids–been there, done that. And even though MY record was not perfect, what parent can ever say that, I did fairly well–according to my kids. Those who had problems have been brought around, gently, to the way of thinking that makes them RESPONSIBLE, REASONABLE adults. Not all my children and grandchildren are ‘saved’, but they understand right from wrong, bad from good and are willing to stand up for those concepts.

    We can do no less here in SL for our families. They deserve it, they NEED it and as SL develops I’m SURE we can do this together.

    Peace, out–as we used to say in my hippie days!

    🙂

  86. Dark forager says:

    Taking a look at the size of SL, there isnt that much pornographic content compared to the non-pornographic.
    There is however a lot of sexual content. But there is a difference between to the two. We have a lot of sexual advertising here in NZ (not pornographic), so maybe I’m just used to it.

    People need to use their own free will, if you dont like mature content, dont go to places that have mature content, and limit those that are under your care access.

    And as many have pointed out, thats what teen Second Life is for.

  87. Laetizia says:

    Children will find mature content on the net and in SL – and believe me, smut on the net is far more realistic and way easier to access than anything in SL.
    Note how I write “find”. They are out there looking for it, we’re not shoving it in their face, we’re not luring them in with popsicles and icecream like perverts.
    And so the analogy to a shop is fair. If a kid steals something, would we blame the shop? I don’t think so. And so I refuse to accept any responsability for what a kid may find in Second Life, on the net or anywhere else. They’re your responsability – deal with it.

  88. Grazel Cosmo says:

    With all the talk about kids:

    1) I have no kids (and never will)

    2) Kids were getting access to adult material long before the internet even existed and there was always some group complaining about it (I got my first porn mag out of my mothers dresser while she was home!)

    3) The governments do need to do REASONABLE measures to protect kids. What groups like Families de France want though are beyond reasonable. They wish to make illegal and remove ALL content that they don’t personally like and sexual content is the easiest target to go after first (violent content is harder to go after because its much more accepted by the world as ‘part of life’).

    While no parent can control everything their kid does they are still responsible legally for the actions of their kid (why do you think parents get upset when their kids get in trouble with the law). Just like the government a parent has to do a REASONABLE attempt at keeping their kid out of trouble. Controlling internet access is tricky unless the kid’s always at home and not very computer literate but that is changing as we’re starting to get parents who grew up with computers so they aren’t a foreign concept anymore.

    LL also should do REASONABLE attempts to keep minors from the main grid (and not just the adult/mature areas of it). The trick is to find a reasonable solution that doesn’t overburden either LL or the residents while being reliable enough to provide a legal shield to both LL and the residents. The proposed age verification system I don’t care for and suspect its putting too much burden on the residents. LL has been quiet about it lately though so hopefully they’ve listened to the concerns (both in personal preference about disclosure and international legal issues) and are in the proccess of fine-tuning the system and perhaps looking at alternative solutions.

    I’m glad the judge in France sided with LL on this and suspect if it’d been brought in the US it wouldn’t have been resolved so quickly (possibly being dragged all the way to the US Supreme Court). As for the Bragg case I hope LL wins it but I also hope they learn from it and make adjustments to clarify the TOS, do more checking on possible exploits like were used, and implement features to help residents recover from being exploited or losses from mistakes (either LL bugs, or user error).

  89. Lozlo Peng says:

    Tony, noone said age verification was payment info.
    It was a reply to someone elses comment on age verification.
    Cheers. 🙂

  90. Jessica Holyoke says:

    So age verification is back on. That’s something we haven’t heard from in awhile. I wonder what it will entail now.

    For awhile, I felt that the “broadly offensive” blog post was designed to circumvent the need for age verification. Now I wonder what age verification will be like now.

  91. Alicia Mounier says:

    You just wait till they make premium membership manditory. Maybe that will help with some of the probs here in sl now. Have like a week trial and then go pay.

  92. CAPTAIN NORALUNGA says:

    So…can we all get back to business now……and quit worrying about LL witch-hunts based on the opinions of the stupid minority pressure groups out there???? I doubt it…… but we live in hope.

  93. Lozlo Peng says:

    58 Puck Rickenbacker Says:

    July 2nd, 2007 at 2:49 PM PDT
    Blinders Off wrote:
    “I am amused by the comments that parents should watch over their own children and leave the government out of it. Comments I would guess are posted by people who do not have children of their own.”

    Um, no. I’ve now a 15 year old granddaughter, and her parents nor I expect any government to protect her. So long as there is a front page stating the site contains mature content, that is sufficient.

    That is the most any online site should have to do. Beyond that, it’s sloppy, lazy parenting if the kid gets in.

    ATLAST SOMEONE WHO THINKS THE SAME AS I.

    I totally agree with you here Puck!

    To all of the ***es who wonder this blog – You’re free to your own opinions, but, stop forcing your own opinions as facts over other peoples opinions. You do not have right to say what is right and wrong, but you do have the right to disagree or agree. So watch how you put your point across to others.

  94. Broccoli Curry says:

    I don’t really understand why “adult content” in Second Life is such a problem. Not that I particularly like it, but it’s not illegal. Some things people would do good to remember.

    1) If you aren’t over 18, you shouldn’t be here anyway.

    2) If you are under 18, it’s your parents fault, not Linden Lab. You might not like it, but it’s the way things are. Deal with it.

    3) You can find far more explicit adult content than you are likely to get in Second Life simply by using Google image search.

    I still think that the responsible way to go is some kind of verification to get access to adult material – but, then again, as most web sites require nothing more than a credit card number and “Yes I’m over 18” tickboxes, why is Second Life treated differently?

    Broccoli

  95. Broccoli Curry says:

    Alicia (66) even just paying a one-off fee to access adult content would probably keep a large proportion of the underage players out, because as much as people may like to disagree, and feel that they have a “right” to be in SL, many of the problems we are facing today (not just adult content but lag and other technical issues) increased exponentially after the 6/6/06 unverified signup fiasco.

    Broccoli

  96. tree kyomoon says:

    too much legal junk in the blog. Lets stick with technology improvements and highlight secondlife citizen acheivements instead of giving litigation center stage 🙂

  97. Tillie Ariantho says:

    I still wonder what the problem is with nudity. That is the most natural thing in the world. Even sex is, or we all wouldn’t exist.

    What about violence? No one complains about that one!

    Why must people get protected against seeing nudity but not violence? Does anyone know Ren & Stimpy? That bullshit is running on TV in the evening, when children are watching TV…

  98. Valerie says:

    Yay for winning this, but with the “broadly offensive” declaration out there encouraging prejudices I thought this place was founded to be against, it’s a very hollow victory. Sorry

  99. RulerOf Merlin says:

    nudity is art! art should not be censored! sex presented to a child by someone other than the parent before the parent has talked to their kids is a problem that can only be solved by taking the kids away from the parents. the best way to protect kids is to present the world the right way not hide your kids from the world. as far as the other case goes, ll has the right to kick anyone for any reason because you rent space on their servers, as with any software you do NOT own anything! you pay for a privilage that can be taken away for any reason, good or not! if the courts don’t say the same they are just too dumb to get it, ll owns second life and everything about it.

  100. Amara says:

    Here’s what a lot of you don’t understand — while the moralists of this world use the excuse “protect our children” to eliminate any image from the public eye that is one scintilla more risque than June Cleaver, this is only a ruse. Their strict religious faiths (90% of these folks are fundamentalists of one sort or another) command that many activities in SL are sinful (gambling, sex-outside-of-marriage, acts of violence), and for them to participate in democratic societies that “allow” such morality — even on a virtual level — without doing everything they can do to stop it, to them — this is yet another sin.

    Believe me, I used to be “one of them.” Who they can’t convert through their altars then intend to force compliance through the state during those periods that they have influence. After all, if they can’t bounce with a friend on a pose-ball without committing mortal sin, why should you be allowed to?

  101. Julien Lemmon says:

    who are Famille de France ?? I’m french and I can’t tell you who they are, ’cause they’re unfamous !!!
    Nobody know who is the president of this crazy “gang”.
    For this info, french TV didn’t give time ’cause french pple haven’t an interest for this stupid action.

    And I just hope than LL will following different country laws to prepare Age Verification, and not simply use US or Californian laws.
    And, for me, the best Age Verification is still yet Parental Control !
    ( You’ll never leave your children alone to cross your country, so why did you leave them alone to cross the world on the web ? )

  102. Astarte says:

    I take your point Jasmine

    “Hell you can now try to force em to your own country rules/laws but whats the deal on that ? then go and play a game that are based on your OWN rules/laws. you agreed on many things as you entered SL, sometimes you should read what you are goin to sign on (just as hint) if you are not able to understand it, ”

    It is in my Langusge. but included in what I signed up for was the CS (Community Standards) written by LL, and included in the TOS by reference. Why is it impossible for LL to uphold these “standards”. If they were to do that I could see the validity of their upcoming age verification system.

  103. Storm Nordwind says:

    I do find it curious that such a prosecution should have been brought in the first place in a country where any small child can pick a xxx magazine off the BOTTOM shelf of their local post office.

  104. Amanda Ascot says:

    As I have made it abundantly clear in my newsletter “Dead Girl Walking”, as well as in various blog threads, Linden Lab’s insistence upon subjecting Second Life to the laws of every country which has more restrictive laws regarding adult content than the United States is a dangerous, slippery slope precedent. I, frankly, don’t think that “age verification” has anything at all to do with this issue, since, as I have also pointed out, there is no Internet-based form of identity verification that can’t be very easily circumvented … just as children have been doing for years to access porn on websites, and the big-wigs at Linden Lab are as aware of this as I am.

    As the laws of more and more countries are piled one on top of the other, and as the adult content in SL dwindles to virtually nothing, we will see the main grid become nothing more than an adult version of the Teen Grid. It seems pretty obvious that Linden Lab would love to get rid of all adult content in Second Life — what I’ve referred to as “Disneyfication”, and the excuse that they are, somehow, protecting children from adult content is being gobbled up by residents only too willing to let other people think for themselves, rather than weigh this issue on its own merits, if there are, indeed, any merits to be found in it.

    Even the vague references to “objectionable content”, with no attempt to define what is “objectionable”, are suspect, as are references to “community standards” when Linden Lab has officially declared that *it* sets community standards. Nobody ever asked *me* what is objectionable, and I’m a member of this community. In fact, nobody I’ve ever talked to has been polled about this.

    My real life partner and I were ready to go into business here in Second Life — a business building sims. We were going to invest almost $30,000 over the next year and a half. In light of developments like this, however, I think we’ll take our business elsewhere — to the successor of Second Life, hopefully run by a company that will not “assume the position” when it comes to protests from foreign countries. If those countries want a “clean Second Life” then let them create their own, on their own servers, on their own soil, and leave the rest of us to enjoy the freedoms we *used* to have before Linden Lab lost it’s Vision — a Vision clearly stated in it’s motto: “Your World. Your Imagination” — a motto that has become nothing more than a joke as it becomes increasingly evident that this is *not* our world and is *not* subject to our imagination.

  105. Alphonso Pidgeon says:

    Can LL create a grid that teaches people how to look out for their kids, so responsible adults do not have their civil liberties eroded by moronic laws passed to protect morons from themselves.
    None of this would be required if the parents of the kids involved were as attentive about their parenting skills as they obviously are about the content of what is, after all, an adult game.
    A small victory for common sense.

  106. Wolfie Waves says:

    Ok, this really proves how stupid and dumb some people can be.

    SL is an over 18 online service, that alone suggests that adult content is to be expected.

    I should think that LL won the case by default.

  107. Lozlo Peng says:

    Exactly, Wolfie! 🙂

  108. Lutz Mueller says:

    This time, I want to say somethink to the part with “age / ID verification”.
    (BTW: Sorry for my horrible english.)

    @10 + 11: I agree with you all.
    Parents make often a drama of this … but won’t pay time to their kids and deal with the interests of them.
    Online Games and SL are not ‘played’ in some minutes, they need hours – and the parents didn’t recordnise?! HELLO?
    (BTW: Well, why no one thinking about blocking the SL-server with tools like NetNanny or something? Then the kids will be safe in case of the bad, bad internet … most adult sides on WWW only say “only enter if 18+” “OK” – ‘age verifcation’ completed … and they show … ummm … “more”.)

    @15 + 27: Full agree, too.
    I had a “Basic Account”, too. And I won’t pay money to the system for a verification, that I don’t want – I don’t like to send very personal data to a strang company. But … maybe I will give my credit card number.

    And about the “age verification”:
    I’m from germany – if you understand the childprotection system HERE, a credit card CAN be a age verification.
    As a minor, here it’s not allowed, to own a credit card – because it’s not allowed to get a credit as minor and you can debit your bank account with such a card … so “not allowed for kids”.
    “But the card number isn’t safe – could be stolen!” … well … and a child can’t ‘steal’ the ID from his parents?

    And I had a question:
    Linden … do you REALLY believe, a german administration / government agency would say “This person exists” or “ID is correct” ONLY why someone say “We work for SL.”?
    We had a ‘horrilbe’ data security here …
    … and I like it more and more, when I read about this.

    Finaly:
    Better kill bugs and LAG … than annoy your customers with institution of restrictions. (Maybe somewhen I will be a paying customer …)

  109. lostshay banshee says:

    I wonder how this age verification will work. In Ireland data that would confirm my age will not be available to LL. If LL, or its agents, has access to this data it will be by illegal means. We have very tough data protection laws.

  110. Draigar Liu says:

    Heres a clue for the parents that aperantly dont have one.

    MUST BE 18 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER TO ACSESS AND USE SECONDLIFE ADULT GRID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If your kid is useing secondlife without your knolage then..

    SORRY TO SAY ITS YOUR FAULT FOR NOT WATCHING THEM NOT LL

    it is clearly stated that this place is for ADULTS!!!!!

    AND IF YOU DONT WANT THEM TO ACSESS ADULT MATERIAL ,SITES, OR CHATS THEN GET SOFTWARE THAT WILL BLOCK PLACES LIKE THIS!!!!!!

    DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  111. Erbo says:

    Vraiment, c’est magnifique! Good job on the part of LL in deflecting this attack.

    As I’ve been saying for awhile now, SL’s biggest enemy is composed of the lawyers and politicians in RL who would impose draconian restrictions on SL in the name of their political gain. Insofar as the age-verification system can deflect these attacks with minimal disruption to Residents, it’s a Good Thing.

  112. Lozlo Peng says:

    If this age verification process is introduced then it’s going to make matters worse.
    Why? Because people will then depend on this new strategy to work and have NO failures what so ever, no excuses. If it fails then they ca neasily threaten LL with the suit, because LL itself is making a big deal about who accesses it’s content – LL arn’t satisfied with just using a signup – but if they just left it to a basic signup and age warning these legal problems would not occur what so ever – The only problem is, yes, there will be ALOT of underage residents in-world – but that would then not be LL’s fault, it would be down to the parents and the resident’s own choice of exposing themselves to explicit content over warning.
    Although age verification online can be bypassed so easily by under 18s themselve, There are many parents out there actually willing to sneak their kids into 18 plus rated movies etc, let alone on an online game. I’m sure there are parents out there who wouldhelp their child create an account, being the child around 15-17, which should be educated about sexual and explicits things anyway; for their own safety and education. I do not believe such content would harm them. I, myself, rarely come across explicit things in-world which would corrupt a mind of an infant anyway.
    There are also ALOT of parents who would not agree to this.
    I am just pointing out that there are parents whom would be willing to let their child play over 18 games.
    I KNOW there are parents here that have allowed their teenage son/daughter to purchase over 18 music and console games

  113. Lozlo Peng says:

    LL you have made yourselves a very easy target.
    Most probably people are deliberately in-world searching and collecting evidence of obscene content just so they can dress you up in a suit and get some of that $$.

    LL stop making yourselves so vulnerable.

  114. James Seraph says:

    A good thing all around. A number of people have commented above on the fact that “yes there is adult content, some of it quite strong, in SL.” As if at some point the existence of fantasy sexual stories reaches a point where violation of the right to free speech consistent for us Americans with the Constitution, and for most other people in the world with Article 19 of the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights. It continues to be a source of amazement to me the number of people who say “sure, oh except for this thing I consider too kinky to be okay.” It is impossible to have inherently non-consensual contact in a digital forum. If people do it here, it is because they at some level enjoy it and it is not physically possible for them to hurt anyone. This is a truth that, based on recent remarks, I hope Linden is taking to heart as much as anyone else. SL is a consensual behavior. “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and idea through any media regardless of frontiers.”

  115. Moll Dean says:

    Greeting All.
    PARADIGM OF 2012?

    I am sorry for the obvious comment, but for introduce the rest of this post I would like to bring in mind that we are living a moment in our conteporary history with many worldwised thoughts. Such as HIV cure, Global heating, Global economy, etc… Close the door of SL and keep only those who can pay for is not brilliant idea. Share information and learn with the world, like is now, is just what we need. A Borderless “world”!
    In fact, even the age verification, that need any valided document, will put many countries away from SL and will not avoid kids to run SL using an adult saved password (?).
    Instead keeping talk about the obvious (thank for your patience untill now, lol)

    I suggest to Linden Lad Developers

    1) To re-write its Terms of Service and let clean that if any under age use this service, the adult responsable will answer for it in law. (and should be, indeed). I am sure that when the responsability comes back to his (the responsible for the kid) hand, he will think better before take it to the court.

    2) Don’t wait for the user to find an solution about access/block Second Life. There are many tools (some free) that anyone can install to control what the kids can or can not access. But the Linden Lab can create its own tool, for free and optional. The computer do not need any SL Viewer installed for it. All that the adult need to do is to install this tool, type one password and done. If the underage (or an employer lol) try to install and run the SL Viewer the tool will detect it and request its password.

    3) High Light this on the MAIN PAGE and Download page.

    No, this will not keep all underage away, but you did your part without affect the magnific borderless world.
    Please, Linden Lab Main Board, do not use this case, the Germany or other to give basement for the age verification or end of the free accounts. Let’s keep walking ahead.

    Have a positive and productive week :)))

  116. Dirk Felix says:

    #81 Erbo
    Linden Labs is not any less draconian than any right wing politician.

  117. Aodhan McDunnough says:

    The crusading sector of the general public (and politics for that matter) are not seeing the big picture. LL’s trying to build a 3D web here and the issues they are complaining about now are issues they’ll have to contend with on a worldwide scale, and not managed by any one company, when 3D web becomes mainstream alongside the 2D web.

    They have to look forward. Right now they can afford to launch attacks because there’s only one entity controlling this web we call SL and that’s of course Linden Lab. Let’s go forward about 10 years and it won’t be LL controlling anymore since the 3D web by then would be very much dispersed. There will no longer be one entity to attack regarding lack of controls. They will have to deal with it in the same fashion that they deal with the 2D web now.

    Which brings us to the real issue, themselves, ourselves, the general public. If all of us cannot fix the issues on our side then we will continue to deal with this problem over and over again. To ask some controlling entity to fix it might work now but it definitely won’t work later.

    Yes, parents need to spend better time educating their kids in things important in life. As a former college educator I can tell you that parents by and large are NOT doing this and are relying only on the schools and religious structures to teach and only on society to protect, completely ignoring their contribution. Until parents get a clue and fulfill their part of the education and protection pie, we will continue to see misguided crusades.

  118. Don’t forget that France really has not “stronger restrictions” on ‘display of images’ than the US, but like the US, it has all sorts of civic associations like Familles de France, who are conservative catholics, with money to pay lawyers — and drop a line to the press in the process to gather some attention.

    They very likely have been told in advance they had no way to win this case, this was just a publicity stunt. Just take a look at their site, they waste all their time and money in suing everything in sight for the publicity in the media.

    Obviously you’re to be congratulated for winning the case, Linden Lab, but Familles de France has “won” what they wanted — another 15 minutes of the limelight, wasting French taxpayer’s money.

    Hélas. France is a free country, and anyone has the right to sue anyone else, even without a reason — although, in this case, the “reason” was just getting the media’s attention.

  119. Lozlo Peng says:

    Aodhan, i totally agree with you on the lack of contribution parents give to their children and only depend on government resourcses etc.
    Yeah, damn, that is pretty pitiful.

    I am not a parent myself, but when I do have my baby, I will make sure I don’t make that disgraceful mistake :\

  120. Bastien Culdesac says:

    For those who are interested…

    This was NOT a lawsuit brought on by “typical french”, it’s yet another fringe group wh oare affiliated with the same thought – police types from Germany that engineered that hijacking they called a newscast. In case you didn’t dig a little deeper – the “german incident” was a set-up from word go.

    There are a lot of groups out there trying to force their agenda as to controlling electronic content through whatever crooked means they can. I’m all for protecting children from adult content, but the argument here ultimately came down to the content even existing, protected or not, restricted or not…

    I lived for a LONG time in France, and I love it dearly. Let’s just say this is NOT representative of the typical french viewpoint, nor did it survive very long in the courts. After all – the Common court tossed it out like the old smelly shoe that it was….

    And for that, I say – good for the French Court. Laisser-faire is still very much in action….

  121. Deltango Vale says:

    Shall we turn out the lights when our kids take a shower so they can’t see themselves?

  122. Jessicka Graves says:

    Yet still, with all the hate on age verification, LL is still going to instate it, regardless of what the people that actually play the game say. Almost no doubt there has been more NO ON AGE VERIFICATION then there has been on yes, we love having to spend our money to prove what has already been proven, and given our information to a 3rd party company, or whatever. Our world and imagination indeed, this is exactly what we wanted.

  123. Chris Senior says:

    “Linden Lab will be rolling out in the near future an age verification tool that will supplement the measures already in place to help ensure that minors do not have access to certain kinds of adult content within Second Life. Linden Lab has been working on this initiative since November 2006, and announced it publicly on May 4, 2007, well before the complaint filed by Familles de France.”

    I’m glad you won your case in France bu damn, we’re back to this age verify nonsense again.

    To reitierate, why should SL have to age verify to keep minors from accessing adult content when they can already see scads of adult material on a simple Google image search? Does Google ask for age verification by a third party? No, of course not. That’s because Google understands that it’s the parents’ job to activate software that prevents adult content from being accesed on their respective PCs or simply tell the kids that they can’t access the internet wothout adult supervision.

    Grow a backbone Linden Labs! Tell upset parents to go to Kim Komando’s website (http://www.komando.com/) and learn about making the internet safe for kids to look at. Because adult material was on the internet LONG before there was a Second Life.

  124. ONE PO'd RESIDENT says:

    funny thing the main grid and the teen grid are eventually being merged as far as daniel lindens interview on u tube and they will be allowed to acccess PG areas within main grid anything flagged adult or mature they wont be able to enter why u think they are putting in age verifications in the first place it is cus of that plan …..many people want family areas of main grid i guess they are the majority now what they really need is an ADULT GRID ,A FAMILY GRID AND A TEEN GRID

  125. Cliff Dieffenbach says:

    “I’m seeing more and more “hosting provider” comments…”

    Because people still don’t get it. LL is providing a service and by you accepting their terms, you’re agreeing to their standards. More and more I see people with the attitude “I pay to play here so I can do what I want”, but it’s funny when those same people complain about how other people ruin THEIR SL experience. What-ev-er.

    “While few adults are offended by nudity as a concept, pedophelia groups and “murder/rape” groups are an entirely different thing.”

    Those murder/rape groups populate role-play combat sims. So by your opinion, all combat sims should be removed from SL or better yet, have a level of consideration be the standard to where you have to say “pretty please” like how momma taught us before shooting/stabbing/sex? The fact is the environment (sim) is like that for people who want that experience. If you don’t like it there, leave!

    A new level should be added to the sim rating system. PG, Mature & Extreme. This way those “oh so shocking” sims like Gor, combat sims & the like stand out so folks have NO doubt there will be content that some would find offensive.

    Finally, good win LL (not that it was really a win considering it’s really common sense).

  126. The Dude says:

    Frenchies..Biased?…NNOOOooo

  127. Anonymous says:

    @Lozlo

    Hmmm….Everyone DID not have the right to play 18 months ago….
    Would you have said that statement back then? Just curious…

  128. I still think at this early stage in the game the servers and the laws should be kept in the U.S. So very many things are simplified by that, until such a time as open sourcing the server code allows individuals to take on their own responsibility for what they host elsewhere.

  129. BrianA says:

    One basic question that seems to get ignored time and time again in these discussions, has anyone ever seen any proof that looking at naked people harms children?

  130. Jason says:

    I heard someone suggest terminating No Payment Info on File accounts… the problem with that is SL ONLY accepts people with credit cards. Even the PayPal alternative still requires a credit card.

    Let’s face it. Credit cards are a way to pay more than you need to (you eventually pay for what you bought with it, PLUS interest). Quite a few smart people such as myself don’t use them, so if they terminate those accounts, where does that leave us? We’re old enough, but still can’t access because we were smart enough to pay with our own money instead of paying by credit?

    Insane.

  131. Chris Senior says:

    “One basic question that seems to get ignored time and time again in these discussions, has anyone ever seen any proof that looking at naked people harms children?”

    @BrianA
    There’s more than one kind of nudity. There is artistic nudity like you’d find in a museum. There’s racy nudity liked you’d find in Playboy magazine. And then there’s hardcore porn.

    Only somebody who’s completely devoid of sanity would think that kids should be allowed to view hardcore porn, for example.

  132. Deltango Vale says:

    @96

    And again: SL is VIRTUAL, VOLUNTARY and ADULT (ToS).

  133. hugsalot says:

    #19
    Quake and Unreal aren’t RPGs. They are FPS!

  134. Deltango Vale says:

    Maybe we can use this as a slogan:

    V V A

    (Virtual Voluntary Adult)

  135. hugsalot says:

    This age verification will not stop kids from accessing adult content in SL. But it will cover LL’s legal-butts over this if a minor IS caught in an area flaged for adult content. Then Lindens can turn around, claim the minor defrauded them, and ban them from the service. Real simple.

Comments are closed.