1.12.1(12) optional update available

[7:03 PM PDT/SLT] Second Life 1.12.1.13 for Mac now available.

Thanks to Joshua Linden for this info: If you’re reading this, please download 1.12.1 (13) from the website. If you auto-update to (13), the bug which it fixes will corrupt the download. It will then tell you to go and download it manually. So you might as well just download it.

Release Notes for Second Life 1.12.1(13) September 27, 2006
==============================

=======
Bug fixes:
* Fixed Macintosh autoupdater
** Older clients should use the website download if issues are experienced

[5:42 PM PDT/SLT] Soon, we’ll be providing a new Mac client with a fixed auto-updater.

[4:14 PM PDT/SLT] We’ve determined the problem is with the Mac auto-updater. For the time being, please *don’t* auto-update (EDIT: it shouldn’t show you the auto-update prompt if you’re still on an older version, we’ve stopped that) and instead, get the .DMG directly from the Downloads page and install it. That should work.

[4:07 PM PDT/SLT] If you’re running the Mac version, please check your inworld clock — if it says “P” instead of the full “PDT” next to the time, you’re on a “bad build” which’ll crash when you use various parts of SL. Don’t worry, a fixed installer is being worked on right now!

[4:03 PM PDT/SLT] We’re currently investigating the Mac crash issues and update problems mentioned in the comments. More news to come.

[UPDATE – Sep. 27 @ 2:35 PM PDT/SLT] It’s available now!

To provide relief for some annoying bugs you don’t want to wait another week to be fixed, coming soon today, we’ll be putting up Second Life 1.12.1(12) as an optional update. When logging in after it’s released, you’ll be asked whether you want to upgrade, or you can download it from this page.

Tentative release notes, pending final smoke testing:

Release Notes for Second Life 1.12.1(12) September 27, 2006
=====================================
Other changes:
* Updated Mac custom cursor file format and API
* Alt-Shift-H (Windows) / Opt-Shift-H (Macintosh) hides HUD Attachments
* Clock labelled as Pacific Time (previously SLT)

Bug fixes:
* Fixed typos in Buy Land Floater
* Fixed typo when joining a group with a fee
* Fixed texture picker opening all folders
* Fixed a ‘level of detail’ issue causing performance degradation
* Inventory window refreshes after renaming a folder
* Classified asks to save when OK is selected
* Top Scripts shows a list when opened
* Trash doesn’t close when purging an item
* Torn IM windows can be minimized

About Torley

Who am I? See http://torley.com/
This entry was posted in Announcements & News, Community, New Releases. Bookmark the permalink.

116 Responses to 1.12.1(12) optional update available

  1. Jesse Malthus says:

    Hmm, why the drop of SLT? Even if it is Pacific, SLT helps keep everyone on the same page in terms of how to describe time.

  2. Nicole says:

    I agree with Jesse, keep SLT. Pacific makes it feel as if your gearing SL more towards American players. SLT was a universal time, even if it is technically the same thing.

  3. @Jesse and @Nicole, internally we discussed about this with the pros and cons — our terminology isn’t consistent, because on the front page of secondlife.com, it says “Second Life Time”.

    “Pacific Time” and “Second Life Time” are synonymous; we’ve certainly had confusion from new Resis asking “What’s SLT stand for?” or “What *is* Second Life time?” with responses like, “Look at the inworld clock”.

    For all practical purposes, you can still call it Second Life Time. However, “Pacific” is more widespread insofar as “people know what it means”, particularly when it comes to communicating events that take place in Second Life but people who’ve never been here before want to participate in. Of course, *once* you know, that becomes moot, so it can be looked at both ways.

    Longterm, it appears advantageous to use UTC.

    This post looks like it’ll lead to a good discussion about timezones — please comment further as you feel!

  4. Jacqueline Trudeau says:

    I agree with the previous posters. Did it occur during the internal discussion that it only takes *one* explanation to the newies for the concept of SLT to stick? That couldn’t be any more confusing then, say, how to operate SL’s photo taking facility.

  5. dolphpun says:

    @Torley: So the SLT -vs- PST thing was just to avoid having customer service questions? I agree with the others. SLT gives the environment a “feel” that relating to 1st life time ruins. SLT puts us all on the same time.

    As we all know, San Francisco *IS* the actual center known of the universe, even if nobody else knows it besides SFers. The website should be PST

  6. Eddy says:

    I agree with Nicole, SL time sounds independent of where anyone actually is, which is how it should be, whereas Pacific time makes it sound like it is geared towards Americans (I am from the UK).

    UTC is basically the same as GMT isn’t it? Do you mean actually changing SL time to use UTC rather than Pacific time? If so, personally I think I would welcome that, but that’s just because that would match my local time, rather than being completely different from it as it is at the moment. So I would have thought that a lot of people wouldn’t want that, and I don’t see how you can really make such a drastic change to the time in SL now that it is already established.

    P.S. Sorry if I’ve just completely misunderstood what you meant by that bit 🙂

  7. Lee Ludd says:

    Actually, the center of the Known Unverse is Los Angeles, but we’re on the same TZ as that boutique city up north. 🙂

  8. Hionimi Engawa says:

    YES! the texture picker folder thingy is fixed!
    That was so annoying, had to scroll and close folders like a madman,
    since I have quite a few sub-folders. O_o

    Thx for fixing! 😀

    Oh, and for Second Life players sake, keep SLT, please? D:

  9. Nad Gough says:

    SLT gives focus to a time in a world that is not planet Earth. It’s very second life-ish. I hope you reconsider this SLT is a symbol of time spent in a second life.

  10. @previous posters… i have to agree with torley. i meen its not much of a difference and i dont think it is a huge deal. it seems fair to me and causes alot less confusion. even if some are upset or more confused it still helps with the newbies and when i was new i was confused on the timing too.

    Plus- isnt it that anyone who has taken part in SL, as in staff, i would assume that new players are one of there goals?

  11. Vanessa Vanbrugh says:

    I agree with the other posters as well SLT worked for everything, and just the name made it feel like it was SL’s own time, stick with SLT.

  12. Kitten Lulu says:

    Please, let us see GMT time too (e.g. while hovering the mouse over the Pacific time).

    It’s a real pain to conver for anyone who is more than a few timezones away.

  13. Steve says:

    @Torley “Pacific? is more widespread insofar as “people know what it means??

    No, they don’t. I’m sure most people outside the US wouldn’t have a clue what PST/PDT means let alone how to work it out from their own time zone. Why not use an accepted international standard like GMT or UTC? Besides all references should be in SLT – it’s the only thing everyone on here has in common – and why not put the current time each page of the website?

  14. Joel Stockton says:

    I think you blew it with the change to Pacific time. Here’s why. SL is its own UNIVERSE. For the characters in it – they should ask “What is this thing called the Pacific Ocean? I don’t see it on the map!”

    Please keep the SL universe an ALTERNATE REALITY and avoid references to the real world. Hurricane Katrina support – stuff like that – sure – we all understand charity.

    Every bow to the “real world” in SL breaks the fantasy. That’s why I think you blew it.

  15. Usu Ventura says:

    YO _ BETTER FIX THE UPDATE!

    With all the discussion of timezones did anyone notice that the update has broken Search, and About Land causes instant crash? I’m on the Mac client. Every Wednesday…

  16. @Joel, off the bat, this reminds me of one of those discussions between people as presented in this post by Lys Ware:

    http://slcreativity.org/blog/?p=17

    To be fair, I am both, depending on time of day.

    @Jacqueline, ah, but multiply that across many, many new Resis. It’s a “question of attrition”, if you hear it come up more than a few dozen times, it starts to… dah, I know what, we need a Knowledge Base article for this at least. *note to self*

    @Steve, re: I feel the same way about UTC.

    Astute observers have noticed at times, I’ve been linking times to this page:

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

    It’d be *great* to have something like this integrated inworld.

    The other prevalent idea I’m hearing is, if you hover or click on the inworld clock, you get a built-in time converter. Who’s up for that? 🙂

  17. Aemilia Case says:

    to put in my 2 cents, being that i am not in the US a “universal” time makes it easier for me to work out when i need to be here time conversion wise. So if PST is now the SLT and thats the universal time….ill just convert it to SLT in my head =P

  18. Malakh Giles says:

    WOOT!!!!

    Thank you for pushing the bug fixes through =)

  19. Elaina Bainbridge says:

    I tried contacting Live Help. I am a Mac user. After downloading the new optional update, I crash if I try to view anyone’s profiles. When trying to contact Live Help I only received a message that no one else was in the chat so my message would not be retransmitted. If I do get far enought that the profile window opens, all info is missing and I get bars with the option to freeze, unfreeze, etc to the person. Id take a pic and bug report but by the time I got that far, I’d already be crashed.

  20. Octal Khan says:

    ahh more RL bleed…oh well

  21. Usu Ventura says:

    That’s two of us Mac users reporting severe crash problems. There will be more. Could you moderate and accept my comments so it does not appear to be one isolated case?

  22. Elbereth Witte says:

    RL bleed, good term.

    I just hope that in the end SL isn’t reduced to some sorta “Web 3.0” because people don’t get that SL is supposed to be its own pocket of reality.

    Lindens could just carry around auto notecard givers explaining it, whenever a few-day-old user mentions the word “SLT”. 🙂

  23. Vittorio says:

    About the time!?!
    Why it must be in SL time? Why it be set to the pacific? And the euope, or the asian lands? I think that we can find an ‘virtual’ time (that could be an ‘internet’ or a time that coincides with an intermediate meridian. I don’t know, but all toughether we can find a final solution that could be onest for everybody.

  24. Kator Bergson says:

    Simply stated with the Timezoning and such and SLT with PST…
    If it aint broke, why the hell are you trying to fix it?

  25. I have had nothing but trouble since the upgrade! The SEARCH is showing the buttons from the profile screen, and if I click PROFILE on the pie chart clicking an Avitar… CRASH!
    Mac user, too. Just read above after writing…. all the same problems.
    What a mess!

  26. Qu Qi says:

    I favor the move to UTC. I also favor the SLT. I just want SLT to equal UTC. I think the game should show both local time and SLT (UTC/GMT) time. This may want to be configurable to save space.

    I’m not clear what happens to SLT when PST becomes PDT. This goes away when UTC is used as it Should Be.

    It would be nice to expose the localtime of an AV in LSL so that objects could adapt. ie: Good Morning, etc.

    It would also be nice if lad could set a different time and that would be visible. ie: there are 3 zones:

    SLT/UTC/GMT – SL time and default land time

    Land Time – could be offset from SLT or stopped, or perhaps running faster/slower. 🙂 linked to the sun.

    localtime – the RL timezone the AV is in.

  27. Mac crash issues — we’re on it! We’ve been able to repro the About Land crashes internally too. Thanx for your info, and sure thing Usu.

  28. Usu Ventura says:

    Thanks Torley – glad you are on the case, and got the messages.

  29. Fushichou Mfume says:

    I agree that SLT is a more preferable time nomenclature for the SL world, and throw in my vote for reverting to SLT again.

  30. Bibi Book says:

    How can I go back to old version? The updater replaced it?

    What about an update warning for mac users?

    Bibi

  31. Mark Linden says:

    We would very much like to make time in Second Life default to UTC and for Second Life to understand the time zone that you are in. However, doing so is going to take a while. A very small but visible part of this change is to be up front about what timezone the system currently runs in (Pacific time), and make sure that when daylight savings time here comes that the viewer will tell you.

    I believe that in the long run, Second Life will need to allow people to use their own concept of time, just like the rest of the Internet does.

    To re-iterate to all of the folks who are saying “Why not UTC/GMT?”: we’ll get there, it is just is going to take a lot of small steps.

  32. Meaghan Winthorpe says:

    I vote for return of SLT as being an Aussie I had no clue as to what Pacific Time is and SLT to me was a great option as it kept it virtual as well as universal to everyone in SL. It doesn’t take players long to learn what SLT means and as someone said life does not and should not revolve around Pacific Time!!

    Its amazing but there is the rest of the world outside of Pacific Time!!

    BRING BACK SLT!!!!

  33. Ceera Murakami says:

    Mac client, three crashes in 5 minutes, and haven’t yet determined a pattern to it.

    *sigh*

  34. Ceera Murakami says:

    And no, I NEVER auto-update! I always DL the .dmg file from the website and replace the files completely. it is NOT just auto-update causing crashes for Mac people.

  35. Solution to the time standard problem:

    Use this microformat design pattern, and let Greasemonkey user scripts fix the problem till LL allows us to log in and set the time in the WordPress options.

    I was getting along fine in SL till I updated. Then I got:

    stuck in the corner due to massive network probs.
    No offline IMs coming through.
    No group notices coming through.
    Rather annoyed.

  36. Katja Karski says:

    SLT was good. It’ll be missed.

    the mentioned eventual move to local time is so problematic for conversation, its ridiculous to even contemplate.

    “when’s the event?”
    > “11am”
    “but that was an hour ago?”
    > “no its in 4 hours”

    Puh-lease.

    a universal – and by that I mean THIS microverse – time convention is necessary, and it would be really nice if an american corporation behaved as a citizen of the world for once, rather than brow-beating the rest of the planet by enforcing US terminology as a world-standard.

    Come off it guys – you can’t even format the date correctly over there, what makes you think anyone wants PST/PDT?

  37. Jessica says:

    .02 L$ (spending a lot of these lately lol)

    SLT works best for me. Keeps SL sperate fromt he rest of the world and lets diverse cultures blend.

    As to it confusing new Resies: Ummmm….what doesn’t confuse new Resies? Not to be mean, I was a newbie last year too, but commming into SL means LOTS of questions. I jsut remade an Alt and looked over the WA and Help Island. It’s gotten better with the HI, but the WA needs TOENS more information. Yes it can be found in the F1 Help and by Live HElp and by asking, but new Resies don’t know where to even look.

    SLT is only one term they need to learn. Look at all the others we have;
    LL
    SL
    WA
    TP
    AR
    BR
    Prim
    Rez
    Sim
    , and the list goes on and on and on.

    Does changing one item really make that much of an impact?

    ~Jessy

  38. Daaneth Kivioq says:

    I too feel we should return to SLT – but having an optional second clock that shows you your local time would be *SO* nice.

  39. Jacob says:

    I cannot log in to SL it goes to verifying protocol version and then it wont let me on…Please help me

  40. Ceera Murakami says:

    Crashed twice more. Once on returning from ‘away’ status and typing in the chat dialog, and once on teleporting home, crashing just as I arrived. Reported both with crashreporter.

  41. Ceera Murakami says:

    I see version 1.12.1.13 is now on the download page for Mac users. Downloading now…

  42. Daniela Guerrero says:

    Torley: “However, “Pacific? is more widespread insofar as “people know what it means?”. 🙂 🙂 I’d love to see americans think outside the domestic border sometime 🙂

    I vote for the old nomenclature (SLT, more universal) or the change to GMT/UTC, that I think “more people” know what it means.

    I’ve seen 2 month’s old resident still guessing what a “prim” is, yet events for newbies published as “6 PMSL” for example, crammed with new people. 🙂

  43. Da Rahja says:

    “* Fixed a ‘level of detail’ issue causing performance degradation”

    What’s the recommended way to take advantage of this fix? I am at about 6fps on average before and after the patch, so I think I may need to update an option in the preferences, but I’m not sure which one.

  44. Greywolf Moonlight says:

    I dont understand what you people are complaining about, SLT has always been Pacific time, the time itself hasnt changed, just the suffix, gee, people are always looking for something to gripe about, I guess.

  45. Vanessa Vanbrugh says:

    Jacob, I get that too, after the update your firewall blocked it, you have to go into the firewall settings, and always allow Second Life.

  46. Greywolf Moonlight says:

    Some people would complain about anything! SLT has always been based on pacific time, the time hasnt changed, just the suffix.

  47. Vanessa says:

    I don’t like to complain on a blog but Live Help wouldn’t even respond to acknowledge my question.

    With the last update I would run into a situation where after several tp’s nothing would rez anymore. It’s characterized by bandwidth in the statistics dropping down to and hanging at near 0 (obvious cause of the no-rezzing) where as it jumps up to about 800kbps for me after a normal tp until everything downloads. An instant relog always fixes it, for a short while.

    With this update it happens after the very first tp so SecondLife is virtually useless to me at the moment and I know I’m not the only one. If an update is optional, please do keep the previous one around in case the new one makes things worse than the one before.

  48. Has Lassard says:

    Please bring back the SLT.

  49. Ceera Murakami says:

    So far, so good. Installed 1.12.1.13 for Mac OS, cleared cache, restarted, and then brought it up in single user mode, then logged off and brought it up again in multi-user with three accounts on one Mac. No crashes, and on teleport, my prim parts no longer take forever to re-appear! Yay! I am on a Mac Mini running Mac OS 10.3.9. Thank you for the second patch for Mac users!

  50. tessa Amos says:

    thanks so much for this great optional update this evening – NOT. Now i seem to crash everytime I try opening a texure. Come on guys, someone has got to start testing this stuff better. I am trying to set up vendors and you are making this very difficult for me. I can’t even get a response from Live Help. UGH

  51. Ryozu Kojima says:

    Just wanted to throw in my vote for SLT.
    It’s been SLT for as long as I can remember, changing it now doesn’t really help anyone.
    It also detracts from the feel of the game. I don’t want to be forced to mix RL with SL.

  52. Not swinging things either way, but an addition:

    I just did a quick google for “second life time?. Many mentions of it also have some variant of Pacific time next to it. For example, from caches of these pages:

    “6am to 12pm PT/SLT (Second Life Time)?
    https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/software_updates/2006-February.txt

    “All times are SLT (Second Life Time = PST)?
    http://www.nmc.org/sl/

    “Time: 5:30PM – 7:30PM Pacific Standard/Second Life Time?
    http://secondlife.blogs.com/nwn/2006/01/lawrence_lessig.html

    “6pm Second Life Time, which is PST, which is really 9pm EST?
    http://www.freeculturenyu.org/2006/05/16/freds-talk-in-second-life/

    In some quirky way, it’s meta, almost like a computer shortcut — pointing towards something else.

    I adore when SL things (“memes”?) spread abroad, and I hope some of our terminology will surpass tipping point status ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point) but besides “knowing what it is?, what do you feel are the distinct, social, and even cultural advantages to using “SLT?? (?Breaks immersion? is a commonly stated one.)

    And why keep using both “Pacific Time” and “Second Life Time” if one will do? I can see myself continuing to use “PDT/SLT” and then “PST/SLT” for accessibility and convenience; my qualms are not with terms but knowing what communicates the best is important to me, personally. =^_^=

  53. Phill Plasma says:

    Please keep SLT, sure it’s a little confusing for new residents but so will any other standard be if they are outside of pacific time. At least at the moment people listing events can do so in the knowledge that everyone will know exactly when they mean. If we move to a system where everyone is seeing a different time depending on their rl location, event listings and notice boards are going to be a pain in the ass to organise and be clear to everyone.
    SLT= SL Time, simple. Why mess?

  54. First of all, I’d like to hop on the “Let’s keep SLT” bandwagon. It gives us all a standard time to which we can all relate (no time zone confusion), it’s a part of the established lexicon in SL, and unlike UTC/GMT, it’s something independent of RL, which makes it that much easier to conceptualize SL as it’s own world.

    To eliminate the number of questions as to what SLT means, maybe mention it in the Orientation Island that newbies have to go through? 😉

    And why not simply build the time converter into the client? As in, hover the mouse over the time and it’ll display a tool tip with the local time; indeed, this wouldn’t even need a converter, as you could just display the time according to the machine’s internal clock.

  55. Pygar Bu says:

    Hi. I tried what Ceera did, clearing cache and restarting, and I still can’t get the thing to even load. I’m jumping on the “where can I find older versions” bandwagon…

    :::frustrated sigh:::

  56. Atte Aderdeen says:

    Yeah, I agree about keeping SLT too.
    You could also make it open a worldwide clock and/or timezone converter when clicking on the clock. It would be soooo handy.

  57. Simon Nolan says:

    —=== PLEASE BRING BACK SLT ===—

    It’s a universal standard for this little universe of ours, as others have said. It keeps the real world out a bit. When I want the real world, I go play my First Life. Yes, its just semantics. But it keeps me in the mode of the Second Life world, rather than jarring me with real life. I really don’t care what time-zone SLT is equivalent to. Though UTC does have a certain appeal.

    I feel like a whiner for saying this, and I hate whiners, but this is an excellent example of fixing something that aint broke. I’m suddenly imagining a committee meeting at LL, where everyone writes on a whiteboard their biggest easy-to-fix pet peeve, and “Newbies always ask what SLT means” was at the top. LOL. Yes, when I first started Second Life, I too didn’t know what SLT was, and yes, I asked. Mostly out of curiosity… I “got” that it was in-world time, I was just curious about how it was determined. I really don’t think SLT is that hard a thing to understand, and it would be simple to mention it during orientation, put it in the knowledge base, in a notecard for mentors to hand out, and so on. I’ve seen just as many people use SLT alone when communicating time as the dual SLT/PST thing that Torley mentioned.

    This all makes me wonder, though, if you guys are transitioning game time, are you also going to link the SL sun’s position to some RL timezone? In some ways I’d like that, because I like night time in SL and it’s always too short, but in general I think that too would be a really, really bad idea.

  58. Simon Nolan says:

    BTW, I forgot to say I’m all for the great idea of hovering over the time (STAMPED SLT!) and getting local time. I will add that I’m also sad that I couldn’t change it back to SLT myself by editing an XML file… well, I couldn’t find one in 10 minutes of grepping, anyway.

  59. Abyssin says:

    Second Life *needs* a universal time that belongs to it, and it alone. It is afterall meant to be a whole new world.
    Almost as good would be to tie it to a *universal* time in the real world, and I am sorry to inform you but your local time (just as my local time) is NOT a world universal time. Therefore there are two options, either UTC (prefered), or GMT.

    Of course ANY change to a 1st world time requires the ability to know the time in your local time (with local time displayed beside the universal time, or in a hovertip). This is the sort of thing that really should have been done first, but we all know the way things happen here, release somthing, and see who screams loudest.

  60. suki usitnov says:

    ok so a few things . first i dont normally post alot on the offical blog and when i do im one of the little flag waving linden supporters .. i dont trash about the latest bugs i just hand out coffee and cookies on update day .. but in this case im afraid no flags

    Bad Linddens BAD BAD BAD naughty lindens …

    ok now thats off my chest
    i can understand how newbies are confused by SLT … heck I was but i took it for granted till i figured it out … as far as i was and still am concerned SLT is another seperate timezone … it marks the hours im ingame … please remember what you at linden labs called your wounderfull fantasy verse … its SECOND LIFE seperate from our first lives seperate from the real world .. we have the ability to post second life profile info and first life profile info .. why because many love to keep both seperate .

    chaanging something like SLT to PT on the clockprobably took the LL programmer monkeys about 20 seconds and so this is the easiest fix to a common customer support question . but lindens as nice as i am to newbies seeing as we all were one at some point , i dont think its very fair to change the client for the sake of people who are only going to be confused for aslong as it takes for them to pluck up thee courage in game
    when i load up i get lots of fun interesting help tips … why not make the SLT thing one of them
    or maybe a little explination on the newbies island …. heck if we can have our SLT back and have our SL verse returned to the same level of dilusional fantasy it was …. if you do that for us … ill happily answer all the newbie SLT questions … sure fine just say … hey new avy person … you dont know what SLT is … you ask suki … shes got your answers … shes out official SLT explainer person

    pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee give back our SLT
    hands out choc chip cookies and irish coffees to lindens and bannanas to the programmer monkeys

    p.s great job lindens * waves suppoter flags *
    p.p.s. no update this wekkk * happy dances * not sure if its good or bad but it was a nice surprise to log into sl on wednesday and not have to update
    p.p.p.s remember dont feed the newbies give them L$ instead so they can get settled in
    P.P.P.P.S ok im done now

  61. Daaneth Kivioq says:

    1. Thank you for fixing the “all folders open” bug in the texture picker…

    HOWEVER

    2. It still displays your texture list in “most recent” order, even when you use and prefer “Name” order in your main inventroy. The texture picker used to follow what ever your preference was in this matter.

    Thankies!!

  62. Mio Waki says:

    People think of Second Life as a way to get away from their Real Life, just a moment. So, now when I log into SL, I feel like I’m still bringing my RL with me. Its like going to Disneyland, if you haven’t noticed, you really can’t see outside of the park. Disney did that for the sole purpose for you to enjoy yourself while you are there. I believe the SLT time falls within the same concept where its all part of the experience; thus, with the upgrade, you have killed the overall experience.

    Just my two cents, but you should really look at the decisions that are made and ask yourself, “will this add or remove from the user experience?”.

  63. Bianca Kendall says:

    Okay…my 2c :

    – I prefer SLT for the reasons many have given before me, although having PDT or PST as a suffix doesn’t bother me.

    – I do think SLT should remain based on PDT or PST, because that at least lets those of us in other countries know how likely we are to get a response from a Linden if we have a problem. When the Lindens have all gone home, we can pretty much give up until their next work day, if we’re having serious problems (not griping – it’s understandable – just a pain, sometimes!)

    – I think UTC/GMT should also be included, as that is a universal standard, and for those of us organising meetings between people from around the world, it makes it much easier to calculate local times for each person, as there are tools available to do so.

    – The ideal would be to have, in addition to SLT, a drop-down time zone selector. That would save having to reference an external source, such as http://www.timeanddate.com (although it would still have it’s uses). Failing that, I’m in the process of perfecting a prim clock to be used in-world (based on UTC/GMT), that is adjustable for different time zones :-). It does have one short-coming, though, in that you need to put it on a wall somewhere – you can’t just take it with you wherever you go (well, you can, but it would be a hassle).

    – What would be a total waste of time, imho, would be to have one’s local time on the SL screen. What on earth for? You just have to look at the system tray on the bottom right of your computer screen to get the local time.

  64. Hello Toonie says:

    Just a little ‘me too’ over here – I don’t (didn’t) know what PST/PDT is (is there a difference? now I’m more confused than I ever was by SLT), but SLT is very much SL’s own time zone without being explicit about putting RL west-coast USA at the centre of the world yet again. Keep SLT.

  65. Kalemika Dougall says:

    My comment apparently got lost. I am ALL for keeping the SLT timestamp. While changing two letters in the timestamp may seem a minor change, you just brought the real world into the SL universe, where it most certainly should not be unless we want it to be. Just add a little note about it to the orientation process. It’s a two-letter fix that adds a LOT to the game world.

  66. Markel says:

    >> Torley Linden:
    >> The other prevalent idea I’m hearing is, if you hover or click on the inworld clock, you get a built-in time converter. Who’s up for that? 🙂

    I’m for keeping SLT too, it gives a unique reference for players all around the world; furthermore, it gives a special feeling saying “i’ve got an appointment with [friend] at 4 Second Life Time”. As for the display of such time, (even though it’s not a big deal to me, I almost always run the SL client in window, thus i can see the system clock), for the display I was saying, it could be SLT displayed/local time on hover, or SLT-slash-local, I’d say both would work (but the hover could save space…).
    Maybe the client could be made to pick the time zone setting, say GMT+3 or the like, either from O.S. setting, or a drop-down list in preferences. Maybe this way it would be easier to figure out things like “okay buddy, see you tomorrow at 6PM SLT” “no way dude! It’d be 4AM for me!” and so on…

    For the newbies saying “what the heck is SLT? can you eat it?” it could be remedied just by putting an extra wooden panel in the welcome island, next to change your appearance, move the ball, walk around and fly, etc.

  67. T_S_Kimball says:

    @ Bianca – Perhaps make that item HUD-able? You also make a good point about local time and the system tray, but I don’t know what Mac/Linux users have for their WindowSystem layouts…

    I see the GUI change as temporary *cross fingers*, while the stated conversion to UCT goes on.

    –Tim

  68. Alexandra Rucker says:

    You need SOME “universal game time” that can be referenced by anyone.

    Lots of people have a VALID POINT about there being plenty of timezones OUTSIDE THE USA.

    As if non-americans don’t already think we forget they exist???

    Sheesh.

  69. Bianca Kendall says:

    Tim: Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll look into it. I haven’t worked with HUDs before – in fact I’m pretty new to scripting in general, although I’m a long-time programmer. But, hey, I like a challenge!

    As for the local time in the system tray – it did occur to me that it might be different for Mac/Linux users, but the fact is that most people do have a clock or a watch close at hand, and therefore knowing their local time is unlikely to be much of an issue. My primary concern here, is that it should not be at the cost of a more useful clock.

  70. Jack Hathor says:

    Ohh please , if i want to know what time it is ill look at my watch, meanwhile stick with your choices, SLT !!!

  71. Ceera Murakami says:

    The difference between calling it “SLT” or “PST” doesn’t really matter much to me, though I agree that what I would really like is an option to convert date and tine stamps to my local time zone. For myself, I am only two time zones off from PST, and have colleagues and family in that time zone, so I am used to making that conversion in my haed. So it isn’t a big deal for me.

    The 1.12.1.13 update for Mac OS, the one released late last night, seems to be stable, if you clear cache, restart, and then play. It seems to have eliminated most of the problem with teleporting causing all your attachments to vanish for an extended period. They still vanish after a teleport, but then they come right back. Movement seems faster. Textures seem to be rezzing better too. I spend far less time in a grey blur now on start-up. More bugs yet to fix, but this is a definite step in the right direction. Thank you!

  72. Hardmoon says:

    I totally agree with the first two posters in this thread. A thing that should be considered is that PT isn’t that known as one might think. In Europe I constantly have to look up on charts which timezone PT, EST, etc is…. When someone mentions SLT I immediately know it’s the time within the metaverse SL. That it happens to be synced with PT is just an added bonus, but worldwide (and come on, SL is accessed globally) it’s comforting to know that we can speak about the in-world timezone SLT. No confusion whatsoever.

  73. Hardmoon says:

    Added to that, and perhaps already in one of the comments above, it would be a major feature if the SLT/PT time in SL is translated to the local time on one’s computer. The event agenda and everything else with a time/datestamp attached would nicely translate to the actual local time.

  74. Nad Gough says:

    Macs have a clock showing local time pretty much the same as PCs. Hovering over SLT to get local time would be redundant, unless perhaps you are playing full screen. This whole time zone issue, from changing the name (SLT to PDT) on to plans of ultimately having time zones be dependent on where you are, is fixing something that isn’t broke. There are a myriad of ways to communincate what SLT means to newcomers. I just started the beginning of the month and I don’t even recall any confusion. It is simply the time in Second Life. Perhaps to those in PDT it has no meaning, but outside of that time zone it firmly and subtly places you in a different world from your first life. Maybe that Linden is in PDT you do not fully grasp the concept, so changing times from your perspective is merely bringing the world into your viewpoint. But really, and not to be sarcastic, if I wanted your viewpoint I could set my internal clock to PDT and be done with it. I come to Second Life for a second life viewpoint. And one of the first things I do is check the SLT. I hope you’ll solicit more feedback before changing something that isn’t broken. Sometimes the smallest things are subliminally important.

  75. Maklin Deckard says:

    PLEASE, I beg of you, do not go to GMT or other universal time. yes, we have foreign players…do they outnumber US players? I doubt it. So stick to SLT / PDT.

    And as to some folks complaints that foreign players do not know what Pacific is, I say they need to stop being lazy and learn. I used to play on an old text-based game located in europe (CET/CEST, BTW) and I did not whine that CET is ‘too european’ and ‘not international’….I learned the names of the timezones and the hours difference and went about my business.

    But I’m just an american, I guess i have to adapt to their ways when dealing with their citizens and businesses….but its funny how when something changes as innocuous as SLT to PDT/PST (7pm is still 7pm in either one), slighted foreigners come out of the woodwork complaining how things are not international enough for them and how the change in ending is to US-centric.

  76. Maklin Deckard says:

    (Blasted enter key)

    If LL and its servers were located in London, i would expect GMT ingame…if they were located in Sweeden, I’d expect CET. And I would not whine about either one. However, they are located in San Francisco, so I expect Pacific time. I sense a certain degree of anti-americanism in many of the posts, since SLT and Pacific are the SAME TIME…only 3 letters have changed.

  77. Samantha Poindexter says:

    I strongly prefer SLT to “Pacific” or any other RL-based term. I don’t much care whether SLT is set to Pacific or Universal Time, but I do want it to officially be the universal in-world time, not a referrant to some extra-world system. Pacific (a) throws me out of the game for a moment, and (b) suggests that this is merely an arbitrary and optional zone choice, rather than the binding in-game standard.

    On similar grounds, I’m not a fan of moving to a system where everybody gets to use their own time system, precisely because it would make scheduling far more difficult. As it stands, I can and do place ads in SL publications touting my trivia game at 4 PM Sundays. If I had to change that to 4 PM Pacific / 7 PM Eastern / Midnight Universal or whatever, and hope that others would correctly do the conversions to their zones in the absence of a game-wide standard… it would be a mess.

  78. Trevor Langdon says:

    My vote is to revert back to “SLT”. As stated previously, Second Life is it’s own experience of Non-Real Life. SLT makes complete sense, no matter what RL time is represented behind it.

    I reside in the Pacific Time Zone, and SLT is still “correct” in my opinion. Afterall Second Life is well, Second Life.

    I also like the idea of the mouse “hover” conversion.

  79. “…what do you feel are the distinct, social, and even cultural advantages to using ‘SLT’? (?Breaks immersion? is a commonly stated one.)”

    – Establishes a common time for everyone, which in turn adds to the sense of shared community. Which, I believe, was sort of the point of SL, yes?
    – Helps reinforce the concept that this is a different and idealized place, with inner consistency to its own rules and conventions. Why use Linden dollars instead of cash?
    – Helps reinforce the international aspect (or rather, the lack of any prevailing nationality) by not adapting any one country’s standard over the others. Why use Linden dollars instead of American cash?
    – Oh, and “breaks immersion.”

    It’s not a big deal, really, and I won’t lose sleep if it doesn’t change back, but I see it as a bad direction to start looking towards.

  80. Harvey says:

    I think you should put it back to SLT too, you’ll probably still be getting the same questions about what PST/PDT is from anyone outside the US.

  81. Fledhyris Proudhon says:

    Everyone is talking about all these Mac crash issues – but I’m on a very high spec PC which meets and exceeds ALL the SL requirements, and I’ve been crashing just about every 5 minutes since installing this new ‘optional’ update. Very tiresome. I’m about to try uninstalling and reinstalling SL to see if that helps :/ Not that this is the first time this has happened, of course.

    The only light at the end of the tunnel is that the crashing, while recurrent, is only an occasional problem. It will be really bad for a few hours, then fine for another couple of days, then go bad again. Absolutely no correlation to my pc, net connection, RL events such as hurricanes – it’s ALL SL. My programmer partner says your code is the suckiest he has ever encountered – of course he’s biased, because he’s the one stuck with my constant tech support with regards to this game! In tackling my problems with SL I’ve now spent more than on ALL other games in the past – which I’ve bought rather than uploading for free – because unlike all of those games, even the newest and most resource intensive, I was forced to purchase Windows XP to run this one even adequately. Not to mention that we had to overhaul and replace a perfectly good computer (in all other respects) just to get to the current level of crashing.

    Linden guys n gals, I’m pretty frustrated by all of this, as I’m sure you can imagine. SL is a really GREAT game, innovative, enthralling, addictive, and I do NOT want to leave it, or all of my friends here. I have a premium account too, which I bought as an annual advance package, and I’m sure I couldn’t get a refund on that. So I’m kinda stuck with putting up with these bizarre crash issues that nobody seems to be solving, which really spoil my enjoyment of SL, and I have the strongest feeling that you guys just *don’t care*. You have my money already, after all. I can tell you now, I will NOT be recommending this game to anyone else I know. In terms of actual play, it’s fantastic; in terms of user reliability, it’s unacceptably poor. And I don’t have even so much as a general public apology for all the heartache and expense it has caused.

    Oh and don’t you DARE try to answer this post with the question ‘have you tried updating your graphics drivers’. Seriously don’t you DARE. Been there, done that, SO many times, and IT IS NOT THE PROBLEM. Anybody even *mentions* graphics drivers to me again, I’ll come after their AV inworld and stick them with a redhot spork }B=8[

  82. Anya Ristow says:

    > Inventory window refreshes after renaming a folder

    Unfortunately, if you rename an *empty* folder it disappears. You must now close and re-open inventory to see it after it is renamed. Or, put stuff in it before renaming it. PC version.

  83. Fledhyris Proudhon says:

    Sorry to post twice but this is just a quick note that I agree, absolutely, with everyone who doesn’t see the point of changing SLT to PDT – whatever that is. I’m still going to be calling it SL time because frankly I have friends from all over the world here, and I don’t really care WHAT time it is on the Pacific Coast of the US. SL has its *own* world-based timezone that is perfectly easy to adapt to – and the fact this is coincidental with Linden HQ local time is helpful, but not necessary to underscore with name changes. And I don’t believe for one moment that SLT is anymore confusing to newbies than PDT will be to those outside the US. So you’ll still be getting those pesky questions 😛

    Apart from that, I also don’t see any need for complicated floating timezone comparisons. Keep it simple, stupid! You KNOW that will break about six other things as soon as you implement it, and honestly, this is the INTERNET – it’s already international – I should think most of us are quite used to converting local to friends’ time when necessary, without being spoonfed. I just tell people that I’m available between the SL times of 6am and 6pm, and leave it at that.

  84. Seven Overdrive says:

    Thanks for fixing the texture bug. I can build again without hassles! As far as the SLT vs. PDT thing is concerned… SLT is a no brainer when you look at your computer’s local time and the game time and do the math. Newbies need to learn how to read. Keep SLT please.

  85. Hermes Noble says:

    The very mistake some other online games were making before started to lose their loyal userbase is trying to change everything for the comfort of newbie. I do second all the comments made here. Second life needs to have its own time zone code (SLT) . It practicly doesnt change anything but emotionaly does. Every newbie resident who wants to start his second life online needs to learn what SLT stands for and I am sure once they do , they will be happy to use it. That couple letter change doesnt seem to make a big differance but it does in sense of killing the whole idea lying behind creating an online world.

    Second life needs to have its own time zone code as much as it has own currency and own citiziens.

  86. Seonaid Barrett says:

    Can I buy a “Bring Back SLT” t-shirt yet? When will the protest march be?

    ~grin, duck, run~

  87. Eileen says:

    Pass the ducktape please: when moving items in inventory, SL crashes since last update.

  88. I agree with many of the posters here that dropping the concept of “SecondLife time” is a very serious mistake. Merely because SecondLife Time was the same as Pacfic Time does not mean that the concept of using PST is the same as using SLT. If you are no longer calling it “SecondLife Time”, why should anybody *care* what time that it is in California such that California time should be part of the client interface? People all have their own PC clocks, after all. The only relevance of having the time built into the interface at all was that it was a time *special* to SecondLife. I don’t remember having any trouble understanding the concept of SecondLife Time when I first joined (although a converter to the user’s local timezone would help). But newbies are now likely to think “This clock’s in the wrong timezone – how do I fix it?” or “Why is it telling me what time it is in Western US? I’m in [insert location other than Western US here]”. Using something other than SLT is far *more* confusing.

    In any event, SLT need not always be the same as Pacific time. As many have pointed out, SL is its own world. You could (for example) abolish daylight saving time in SL, or make SLT align with GMT instead, and it’d still be SLT, and people would still know what it means.

    For the sake of everybody’s sanity, please revert to SLT on the next update.

  89. Eileen McCallister says:

    Good idea, Seonaid.
    For a free SLT-shirt ( front: “Bring back SLT!” back: “Please”) IM Eileen McCallister.

    🙂

  90. Geoff Gavaskar says:

    Oh….hahahahhah!…….PST is actually based on Redmond time, the real center of teh universe. muahahhahhaha

  91. Francesca Alva says:

    I am a relatively new resi (July 2006). It was obvious to me from the outset that SLT stood for Second Life Time. I liked that. LL may be in San Francisco, but SL is its own universe; _any_ RL timezone would jar.

    Part of the fun of discovery is learning the terminology and traditions of the new universe. Please don’t dumb it down. What next – change “prim” to building block?

  92. Rufus Varmint says:

    I can’t say I’ve noticed it before so I’m not sure, but does that mean that SL will be observing Daylight Saving’s Time from now on?
    *That’s* gonna add a nice bit of confusion to everyone’s scheduling when everyting suddenly jumps forward and falls back and hour.

  93. Ghoti says:

    Strange… the last blog post is listed as being posted at 7:03 PDT… fully 2 hours in the future.

  94. Katja Karski says:

    There are those here who think that complaining about this is moaning about something small – but I ask you to imagine what kind of resolve it should take to up-and change it in the first place.

    If someone thought it was worth changing, then clearly, it’s worth complaining about.

  95. Caranda Schreiner says:

    [quote]
    However, “Pacific? is more widespread insofar as “people know what it means?, particularly when it comes to communicating events that take place in Second Life but people who’ve never been here before want to participate in.
    [/quote]

    Only an American could write something so insular! You guys really ought to think about how some of the things you say come across to non-Americans if you want to appeal to a worldwide audience.

    I liked SLT, I like the idea of SLT having its own time to show that its in its own virtual world even if its just a name and even if it really is the same as Pacific Time, changing it to a US time zone for the convenience of a few dense noobies is not worth the loss of immersion.

  96. Donegal Ofarrel says:

    I am a UK res. and agree with the majority of posts on here. Keep SLT. I come on SL to escape from RL. I really don’t want reminders of any connection to RL in-world. If I bring up RL in chat or IM, then fine. My choice.

    But to have SL make the connection for me? NO thanks. Just mho.

  97. Tasrill Sieyes says:

    SLT is far to good of a standard to change. I talk to people around the world on SL and having a common language for time is vitaly important. Changing it to a rl time zone even if just in name takes some of that common language away from us. SL is it’s own culture in it’s own world so keep it with its own time.

  98. Millie Thompson says:

    Phantasy Star Online used Swatch’s Internet Beat Time system. A rather confusing and hard to synchronize system where users could say:

    “Let’s meet up @452 beats!”

    and at that time according to the beat time application you found and installed…

    @121 beats while PSO displayed 957 beats…

    So everyone stuck with using the timezones. Much simpler and much less complicated.

    So why complain?

  99. Lewis Nerd says:

    As the whole world’s time is synchronised from GMT, then it makes sense that a worldwide computer game’s time system should be connected to it, as the whole world accesses it.

    There’s a whole reality outside of west coast US, you know. Some of us live in it all day every day.

    Lewis

  100. Arianna Oranos says:

    Bring back the SLT and spare us the confusion!

  101. Carnivore Soothsayer says:

    SLT pretty please thank you very much.

  102. Coyote Jansen says:

    Yes Yes, keep calling what ever timezone you end up on “SL Time” it’s very important for the game!

  103. Nateboston78 says:

    Not a flame or a complaint although I am kinda annoyed. Why does Sl have so many darn updates? I would almost rather see less updates with more features than many mini updates. If this disucssion has been raised before I appologize. I just want to play the darn thing for a solid month without 2-3 updates.

  104. Bit Berjis says:

    Re post from Mark Linden on September 27th, 2006 at 5:04 PM

    ..snip..
    “We would very much like to make time in Second Life default to UTC and for Second Life to understand the time zone that you are in. However, doing so is going to take a while.”
    ..snip..

    I can’t see that having local time conversion in SL will work at all. Even if you modify things like the event listings to take account of RL timezones, we won’t be able to refer to the time in chat or IM conversation with anyone unless we *know* that the people we’re talking to are in the same RL timezone as me. And surely making the multitude of in-game “event boards, etc., compliant with RL timezones would be nigh-on impossible, too?

    I’d say SL *must* stick to one timezone in-world for everyone; “SLT”, whether this is based on PDT, UTC/GMT or Star Trek’s “Stardate”, it doesn’t really matter, as long as *everyone* has exactly the same reference point.

  105. Joel Stockton says:

    Another thing: I don’t want to deal with confusion when daylight saving ends in Pacific time. Does SL go to Daylight Savings time too? People might think that with “Pacific Time.” Less than 1 person in 10 knows what the difference is between PDT and PST – they just read it as meaning the same thing when it doesn’t.

    I AM STARTING A GROUP! “WE WANT OUR SLT” – Free and open to join. 🙂 Wear the title proudly!

  106. Crissa says:

    Keep SLT, please.

    Everything is somewhere in the world, and having SLT allows us to remember when the Lindens are basically awake and how the day moves. Having UTC and local time zone code is fine, but everything still has to be somewhere. It doesn’t matter if you’re on the world, in VR, in a space station, or on Mars, local time is local time…

    When one is talking, words don’t fix to timezone, ya know 😛

    Also, .13 blew up on my Intel iMac. Argh.

  107. Mandrappa says:

    SLT is just fine. I don’t see any reason to use a RL timezone.

  108. WOWZA so much positive feedback for “SLT”!

    Casually, I know it must look wack how Lindens… well, this is Second Life, so you’d think we want to keep as much as much of our “SL culture” without bowdlerizing it. Me, I’m just a composite reflection of what I experience here, so if there’s a lot of joy for SLT, I’ll share that with my fellow Lindens.

    @Joel, I get confuzzled by PDT/PST too. I look forward to seeing how your group does!!!

  109. Astrin Few says:

    I totally disagree with Mark that “in the long run, Second Life will need to allow people to use their own concept of time, just like the rest of the Internet does.” One of the simplicities of Second Life is that we’re ALL on the SAME TIME. Why mess it up just because you happen to drink your morning coffee in RL at a different time from someone else? For events, it’s essential to have one time. When I say I’m playing a gig at 7 pm, people know what I mean. If they can’t figure out what 7 pm SLT is, they don’t show up, too bad, and hopefully they figure it out in the future. But if I have to say my show is at 7 pm in some random time zone, I can guarantee you that a majority of people will have no idea when to show up. One Time Zone! SLT!

  110. SuezanneC Baskerville says:

    Perhaps, regardless of what time standard is used, “game time” should be the time designator.

    :p

  111. Bianca Kendall says:

    A few more points:

    – PDT/PST may be very well-known if you live in the US, or do business in the US, but that does not mean that it is well-known outside of the US. I’d heard the term before, but it meant nothing to me with regard to how it related to either GMT or Australian CST. There really was no need for me to know, and there shouldn’t be now. I just need to know how SLT relates to my own time zone.

    – It really seems odd when I (an Australian) organise a meeting with a friend in The Netherlands, and we have to plan it around an American time zone. Saying that does not make me anti-American, as some would like to suggest. Far from it. I enjoy meeting people from all over the world in SL. But one of the things I like most about SL, is that one’s RL nationality, while interesting, is irrelevant. We are brought together by our common SL ‘nationality’ (for want of a better word). And, as I said before, it doesn’t bother me what time zone SLT is based on – I just want it to still be called SL Time in-world.

    – I’d be very interested to know the percentage of US players compared to the rest of the world, Torley. Is that information available? I’m wondering whether the US does have the majority of players, as Macklin suggests. I’ve only come across two Americans myself, that I know about. That probably has something to do with the different time zones, but still, it has surprised me.

  112. Tasrill Sieyes says:

    I have to ask about the precentage to Bianca. I am an american and the number of americans I know is less then the number of people from rest of the world by a huge chunk. In my time in SL I have almost always been in the minority as an american.

  113. Bianca Kendall says:

    Thanks for mentioning that, Tasrill. It’s very interesting to know. I would love to know what the reason is.

    I do need to add a correction to what I said. I have been line-dancing at The Heartland and the Silver Dollar Saloon, and I’m sure most of the people there were American (although there have seldom been more than a handful of people there when I’ve been there). I was also thinking more in terms of people I’ve had actual social conversations with, however brief.

  114. Eddy says:

    I haven’t read through all the comments here (because there are sooooo many now), but I completely agree with what people are saying about Pacific time. I had absolutely no idea what it meant (until I started reading this post), and the time in SL being called Pacific time wouldn’t have helped me AT ALL as a newbie. SL needs to have its own independent time.

    As for showing times in GMT/UTC/other local time, I don’t think that would work either, but I think it would be handy to be able to set your local time zone in preferences, and have a mouseover popup on SL times whereever possible (on the clock, event listings etc), showing that time in the user’s local time. Just to make it easier to convert.

  115. Hardmoon says:

    I mentioned the proposal for a translation to local time. The thing I mean with that is that the SL client ‘recalculates’ the local time compared to PT and shows all data with dates in it (in the SL database servers) in the local time zone.

    Here’s what I mean: when I look at the event calendar (from the Netherlands) I see events that are scheduled at, for instance, october 5th, at 23:00 (11:00 PM). This means that with the dutch timezone in mind (GMT+1) it’s scheduled at october 6th, 6:00 AM. A very simple translation which can be programmed into the SL client and can work for *ANY* timezone. It would need an addition to the preference panel where one can set their timezone. After that, the client can translate any date from LL’s database to the local timezone. Now when I would look at for instance the event calendar, I don’t have to add 8 hours every single time. Nothing life threatening, but it would be a nice feature:)

    That’s, in short, what’s meant by this 😉

  116. Nad Gough says:

    I’m confused about the (13) release for macs. Your post seems to say to do the update, and that it will not work, so you might as well download the client. (?) What is the status on this? Has (13) been fixed and it is okay to download it now, or is (13) dead and we are waiting on (13)? Then I downloaded (13) it crashed my system. I had to redownload the client from the site. Each time I log in it still suggests I download (13). Would you please clarify this? Thank you.

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